Who’ll win the ID cards shoot-out?
June 29th, 2005
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Will the bill give David Davis a chance to shine against Clarke?
With about 20 Labour MPs rebelling in last night’s second reading vote on the ID cards bill the betting exchange, Betfair has opened a market on whether the Government will get the legislation on the statute book during this session of Parliament.
This is the first time that I can recall that gamblers have been able to have a punt on a specific piece of legislation although so far there’s almost no liquidity in the market and the options are very limited. Under the terms of the bet the bill has to become law during this session which means, effectively, by October or November next year.
Given that this is such a flagship piece of legislation that has been introduced right at the start of the session there is plenty of parliamentary time available. Although there will be many concessions and the bill is likely to have a tough time in the House of Lords it is hard to see it going down completely within the time-scale.
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From a betting perspective the real interest might be how the Tory front-runner, David Davis, performs.
For as Shadow Home Secretary he is leading the fight against the bill and critics and supporters within the party will be watching carefully to see how he handles himself. Will it help or hinder his chances of becoming Tory leader for which he is currenty 1/2 favourite.
If Davis cannot make the most of a parliamentary situation where there’s huge opposition on the Labour benches then the doubts might grow. On the other hand his contest with Charles Clarke gives him a great opportunity to shine.
Mike Smithson
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I think Betfair had a market on the Education bill in the last parliament (the one that passed by 4 votes)
How long had you had that picture and been dying to use it, Mike? Amusing start to the morning.
Constitutional question. Since this is an extra-long session, what happens if the Parliament Act has to be used to force the bill over the Lords’ veto? Does it require a delay till the next session, or just of a calendar year.
I read that, other than the 20 rebels, someone abstained. If so how many the abstainers were?
The 20 rebels were:
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North & Stoke Newington); Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran); Frank Cook (Stockton North); Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North); Mrs Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe & Nantwich); Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent Central); Paul Flynn (Newport West); Ms Kate Hoey (Vauxhall); Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North); Ms Glenda Jackson (Hampstead & Highgate); Dr Lynne Jones (Birmingham Selly Oak); John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington); Robert Marshall-Andrews (Medway); Linda Riordan (Halifax); Ms Clare Short (Birmingham Ladywood); Alan Simpson (Nottingham South); John Smith (Vale of Glamorgan); Robert Wareing (Liverpool West Derby); David Winnick (Walsall North); Mike Wood (Batley & Spen)
Lots of the “usual suspects”.
Post on Antony Wells’ site reporting a poll showing 10% support for ID cards at a price of £100. Comparison to the cost of a passport is irrelevant to people who’ve never had a passport and don’t want one. Nor do I think people yet understand what “collection of biometric data” actually means - it will be seen as intrusive. I suspect the phrase “plastic poll tax” has got legs - no wonder Ministers are leaving themselves the bolt-hole of “well maybe we won’t actually implement the legislation after all.”
At least it will permit them to throw all the rough sleepers into jail…
Sorry, forgot to switch the bold off…
3 - Andrea
I don’t know how Mike sees a rebellion of 20 or so MPs as “huge opposition on the Labour benches” … not even the entire campaign group voted against the legislation, which would have made the vote somewhat closer, in fact at the moment I’m not sure how the campaign groups membership stands after the election, I’ll look it up, in fact I’m surprised the vote wasn’t much closer as there are many fairly moderate labour MPs with concerns over ID Cards… no doubt we’ll have to wait and see but thus far I don’t think this rebellion suggests “huge opposition” or anything like it.
6. Campaign Group MPs are 24, but not everyone is against ID cards. Some abstained according to the Guradian.
20 is not a big number per se, but with a majority of 66 it’s something not to overlook. If I understand weel there are some MPs who voted for or abstained yestarday who have some concerns about ID cards and are hoping in some concessions. So the ones that you called “fairly moderate labour MPs with concerns” are probably waiting for some changes and concessions and they let only the “usual suspects” to vote against. Maybe the government will put his rebel status on Jeremy Corbyn’s ID card (did he ever voted for the government in a controversial issue?)
Re 2: As I understand it, the Parliament Act requires a new session, so we’d be talking autumn 2007. It’s an interesting question whether the Lords will actually refuse to pass it (as opposed to a ping-pong with concessions, as with the terrorism legislation). Essentially it comes down to Tory tactics: LibDem peers will certainly oppose it, Tory peers may prefer to keep their powder dry for - for instance - the next battle over Lords reform. The downside for the Lords is that if they block a Labour manifesto commitment they will inflame the Lords reform movement in the Commons, as well as reducing the number of Labour rebels (the Campaign Group don’t like being in the same box as Tory peers). The Tories, I think, will want to see if the issue becomes a popular cause. At present the public mood is mostly “ID cards are OK with me but I don’t want to have to pay a hundred quid for them”. If the cost is significantly less, as appears likely, then I can’t see a big Tory campaign on the issue taking off. But betting on the issue means betting on Lords behaviour, a hazardous game!
I’ve commented on the debate on yesterday’s thread. I don’t think it’s quite accurate to say there’s huge opposition on the Labour side. Most Labour MPs see it as as a practical idea, neither wonderful nor awful but merely sensible. I’m one of the few who are positively enthusiastic (I proposed it before the Government did) - my continental experience of ID cards and IT background influence me. A few feel very strongly opposed indeed - one opponent said she thought that it was more important than the vote on the Iraq war, which caused a bit of head-scratching, as nobody is actually going to get killed by having an ID card. But otherwise there was not much passion on the issue evident yesterday beyond the half dozen MPs who have specialised on the issue.
But some of the sensible Labour MPs , like Nick Palmer (based on his postings here) have been given jobs so are not able vote against the Government.
Odd really - eveyone is trying to save the Gov. from itself. Now that Clarke has said that the treasury will pay for any increase in cost over (not said but implied) £93, if they carry on with it then are likely to worsen spending deficit.
But some of the sensible Labour MPs , like Nick Palmer (based on his postings here) have been given jobs so are not able vote against the Government.
Odd really - eveyone is trying to save the Gov. from itself. Now that Clarke has said that the treasury will pay for any increase in cost over (not said but implied) £93, if they carry on with it then are likely to worsen spending deficit.
But I think Nick Palmer introduced an ID cards bill before the Government did!
I notice Clarke was trying to have it both ways yesterday - the cost wouldn’t be prohibitive, but then they’d subsidise the cards for lower earners to protect them against prohibitive costs. Very confidence-inspiring.
I have a nasty feeling that this whole ID card is going to turn into something like the Iraq war debate all over again - having repeated arguments with people who seemingly steadfastly refuse to consider your arguments, usually arguing from a completely different set of first principles, and driving you ever more infuriatingly angry
Well I for one hope that the odious Davis does not enhance his reputation. We do not need another right winger to take us forward.
Nuala, that’s what they’re saying in the Labour Party - it was the Labour Party you were talking of - wasn’t it?
David Davis did come up with some good soundbites yesterday. Saw him being interviewed on Newsnight and he just comes across as very dull.
How will Howard play this at PMQ’s when he’s always supported ID cards. Surely he can’t avoid the issue.
15 - “Rik for Pres!” Sophia, you know it makes sense. He would never be dull - just think of those bedazzling cufflinks gleaming under the TV lights in the HoC …
16 “Whilst being a supporter in princi-pillll, we all know that this government’s record of failure … etc etc “
If the public support about ID cards will continue to fall, I think the plan could not pass. I suppose that some Labour MPs with the libdems is second place could start to panick.
I’d prefer Rik as leader Tabman, even without his dazzling cufflinks…
Blair will rip him apart. Not looking forward to this.
Mr Abroad, that did make me laugh! I just wonder when our party will get it into their heads that we keep losing because of this. I notice that the other Tory women on the site seem to have a grasp of the issue. David Davis is too macho. To appeal to the female vote we need a softer touch and Rifkind is the one to supply it.
“I suppose that some Labour MPs with the libdems is second place”
If the ID card will be as unpopular as I think it will be, then Labour MPs with Tories in second place will be very worried as well.
20 - steady, Sophia - if Rik didn’t have his cufflinks in you’d get a flash of bare forearm as his cuffs came open, and who knows where that might lead!
Erm, I don’t know that many women who look forward to Malcolm Rifkind’s “soft touch” :s Or perhaps only in a political sense.
Yes, that’s what was missing on Saturday - I should have organised an arm wrestling contest.
16 Want a bet? Course he can. Why give Blair a Chance to turn the spoitlight on them.
18. What his Character of speech has to do with it i don’t know
Tbman, anymore than Charles Kennedy’s Choice of lifestyle perhaps.
Ps Were any Conservative MP’s absent last night?
Mr Value that’s exactly my point. Too many men don’t understand the female psyche and what we find attractive. It seems you don’t either, and I’m sure Sophia will support me in that Rifkind has appeal on many levels.
27 - I read Tory attendance at the debate was quite low, though I think they turned out reasonably for the division itself.
I guess Nuala must be a woman, because I don’t know a man alive who knows what women want.
28 - yes, sadly Nuala you probably have a point there.
23. yes, but the Libdems are better in making strong campaigns about a couple of issues and producing some spectacular results (I suppose that in 2001 MPs like Barbara Roche or the one of Manchester
Withington thought to be almost saved for 2005 too; now labour MPs could remember those big swings against and start to panick when faced with potentially unpopular bills)
27 - any Conservative MP’s what? Cufflinks?
I was merely trying to reproduce faithfully the effect that MH would give when making that statement, in order to give it full value for impact. Touchy subject? Re CK’s lifestyle choices - as a Liberal in all senses far be it for me to make judgement on what anyone gets up to in the privacy of their own house (or saloon bar).
“if Rik didn’t have his cufflinks in you’d get a flash of bare forearm as his cuffs came open” - and the Tories would in a flash win back their female voters…
“softer touch and Rifkind is the one to supply it” - I don’t really think so.
Has anybody else noticed that David Davis has a particularly red and bulbous nose.
Isn’t it true, however, that Blair was once a major asset for the Labour Party among women, whereas now he is seen as a liability? I doubt Brown was particularly popular among women 8 years ago, now reports are that they love him.
Alex, you can rest assured its almost certainly not what you think we want! So don’t be too hard on yourself Mr Value as you’re not alone.
34 - I’m sure he’ll happily tell you how many times he’s had it broken. Though I suppose I should feel sympathy with him on that matter. Mine has not been the same since Election Day 1992 when I ran very hard into someone I was playing football with.
In fact, I become increasingly worried at the parallels between my life and David Davis’s. I’m not sure politics needs more wonky-nosed chemistry students turned management consultants.
Oh good, we’ve got a disagreement among women over what women want
34 - “Nose, Nose, jolly red Nose,
And what gave you that jolly red Nose?
Nutmegs and cinnamon, spices and cloves,
And they gave me this jolly red Nose.”
27. Turnout for each party yesterday:
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2005-06-28&number=21
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2005-06-28&number=20
At the second reading vote 180 tories were present;61 Libdems;3 Plaid Cymru; 6 SNP, Galloway and Dr Taylor.
“Mr Value that’s exactly my point. Too many men don’t understand the female psyche and what we find attractive”
That’s true. Many women find people like John Hemming and David Mellor attractive.
I was actually thinking his nose looks much like my late great aunt and I don’t she ever broke her nose…
40 - Always amusing when someone votes twice
35.”I doubt Brown was particularly popular among women 8 years ago, now reports are that they love him. ”
My mother finds Brown sexy (it’s quite worrying, I think), but yesterday she found a better looking scottish (in her opinion): the MP for Dundee East.
36 - I know what women really want but do they ? Lol . I have read the story of King Arthur , Sir Gawain . The Witch and the answer to the question ” What Do Women Really Want “
41 - very true, perhaps I should be thinking of an image change.
43 - Taylor always does it when he abstains, to show that he is “positively” abstaining rather than sitting in the pub.
46 - well he might as well be
Actually i think i knew that
41 - short, fat, bald, ugly [i]rich[/i] men are never short of young, attractive female companionship. Go figure …
47 - he probably prefers to be thought of as a t-total abstainer.
I think in most other cases, the double vote is done to neutralise (though not of course reverse) an absent-minded trip to the wrong lobby.
48 - “So what first attracted you to millionaire Paul Daniels?”
50 - Phil, I think Debbie Thingummy is probably the exception that proves the rule
Bernie Ecclestone ….
I don’t know about John Hemming, but some of David Mellor’s lovers have been well-off in their own right.
If it’ll cheer you up, Tabbers, I once met a millionaire who reckoned he got on better with women before he made his money… perhaps the secret of (male) happiness is to be both rich and stupid!
P.S. Both Nuala and Sophia know this doesn’t only apply to men, but will they ‘fess up? A no-brainer…
54 - IA (luckily!) I know that young attractive female companionship is not the secret of true happiness
I personally can’t see the attraction of David Mellor at all but then again I do think he is pretty loathsome individual. One of those Tory MPs I was so glad they lost their seat in 1997 although he (unfortunately) seems to be doing very well for himself now.
Nick at 8, on what are you basing the assertion that cards are going to cost significantly less than £100? Is the figure you are quoting the headline cost, ie. how much you are actually going to have to shell out when you get fingerprinted, or the total unit cost?
I was at a seminar yesterday with a project management consultent who has done a substantial amount of work with Government Departments and he said that he wouldn’t touch the project with a bargepole because of the high risks of it going totally out of control. Given the government’s record on such projects and how dysfunctional Home Office is at the moment I can’t see the cost coming in within the same order of magnitude of the unit costs being quoted at the moment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4633101.stm
Is this a move to please tories traditionalists?
Can we take it as read that any missing Conservative MP’s were
‘paired’ last night ?
58 - I particularly liked this quote from Cameron: “”Children do better if their mother and father are both there to bring them up,” he said.” Given his parents packed him off to boarding school, it sounds like its from the heart …
I think if I was an LD strategist, I’d have a tape of David Davis when he was “forced” by Michael Howard to support ID cards and play that against his performance yesterday. It would make splendid viewing.
I think the LDs need to re-iterate that they have always stood foursquare against ID cardw while the Tories have twisted and turned on this as they did on Iraq.
8 - “no one is actually going to get killed by having an ID card”.
Until the database falls into the hands of the IRA, the animal rights extremists… do not underestimate how dangerous this centralised aggregation of information is.
62 A very simple, but very well made point that goes to the heart of the matter. Not hard to extrapolate what could happen in years to come were our democracy to take a turn for the worse !
Apologies to Nick Palmer for calling him sensible. I had posted (9) before his, obviously genuine, support of ID cards had been posted.
I still just dont see the benefits only the costs - which may be capped at £93 for us (not significantly less than £100 as hoped by Nick) every (10?) years.
Seriously if you dont have to carry one and are stopped by the police and told to bring your card in later, what is to stop someone giving a wrong address and not showing at the police station?
It may be that white middle class voters wont need to carry them, only those who look as if they may be immigrants, including the new Archbishop of York and Sir Bill Morris!!!
58 - on a personal note I agree with a lot of what Cameron sys WRT famillies; however I support the right of people to chose to live their lives as they see fit and we should not be using the tax system for social engineering in this fashion. And I suspect the majority of the electorate agree with me - certainly they’re voting with their feet on the issue of marriage. Consequently I think this would be a bad move for the Tories if they’re looking to shed their traditionalist image.
From Andrea’s link at 58.
‘……Mr Cameron is making a speech about his party’s future, with the catchphrase: “We’re all in it together.”‘
They certainly are!
Icarus @ 9 Nick hasnt been nobled on ID cards he is an enthusiastic supporter and has been proposing them for years.
Would be interested to know at what point, in Nicks opinion, the cost becomes too high though and what his educated guess on what the price will be is as he says “significantly less than a few hundred quid”.
I fully expect some sort of fudge from HM Gov on this. ie an “acceptable” low individual charge with the enevitable cost overruns being underwritten by…erm the tax payer!
Its not just the cost of the ID card which will be extremely unpopular, but the little extras like having to book an appointment at (your already overrun) GP to get your iris scanned.
61.”I think the LDs need to re-iterate that they have always stood foursquare against ID cardw while the Tories have twisted and turned on this as they did on Iraq.”
yes, that’s why I talked early about labour MPs with Libdems in second place. If ID cards will become unpopular, they could claim to be the only ones who opposed since day one (ok, PC and SNP too, but people seems to forget about them).
Jeremy Corbyn adnd Glenda Jackson rebelled even in the vote to authorize the Treasury to pay for ID cards if costs will increase.
62. Book Value, what type of info are in the database?
I think it doesn’t include info about if you’re pro animal rights or not. I’m sure I’m missing something here.
68 - good point, and things like this are what will make people really start feeling it (almost literally physically) as an encroachment on civil liberties.
69 - Andrea, “I think it doesn’t include info about if you’re pro animal rights or not”, no, but if you know whom you want to target, being able to find out where they are would be quite useful.
69 - Andrea, the IRA used to have a phrase “We know where you live …”
That’s the key thing - and I know this information is already kept in many other places - it links an awful lot of infomration that could be useful for organisations that wish to do harm to someone.
how will carrying an id card make me safer?
Re 28 - well, this 27 year old Tory girl would rather go for Liam Fox (given half a chance). Rifkind looks too much like my grandad.
72 - keep it in your breast pocket; then when the bullet approaches it will be deflected by the chip (as used to be the case with hip-flasks …)
Details of absent MPs:
Absent Conservative MPs:
Kenneth Clarke
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (spoke in the debate questioning cost)
Roger Gale
John Gummer
William Hague
Alan Haslehurst (Deputy Speaker - does not vote)
David Heathcote-Amory
Daniel Kawyczinski
Julian Lewis
Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker - does not vote)
Michael Mates
Gearge Osborne
Richard Ottaway
Nicholoas Soames
Robert Walter
Nigel Waterson
Anne Widdecombe
George Young
(total 18, of whom some were at the Trafalgar do and probably paired and 2 were Deputy Speakers and do not vote)
Labour MPs absent
Ben Chapman
Michael Clapham
Claire Curtis-Thomas
Frank Dobson (present and spoke against - abstention)
Bruce George
Neil Gerrard (present and spoke against - abstention)
Ian Gibson
Peter Hain (minister - absent on duty. Paired?)
Sylvia Heal (Deputy Speaker - does not vote)
Adam Ingram (minister - absent on duty. Paired?)
Andrew Love (present and spoke against. Abstention)
Michael Meacher
Austin Mitchell (present and spoke against. Abstention)
Albert Owen
John Prescott (minster - absent on duty. Paired?)
Dennis Skinner
Geraldine Smith (present and spoke against. Abstention)
Rachel Squire
Paul Truswell
(20, of whom 5 were present and spoke against the bill, 1 was a Deputy Speaker and 3 were ministers absent on duty)
Assumption: 14 Labour MPs and 14 Conservatives were paired.
David Taylor (Labour) voted twice to register a deliberate abstention.
Peter Law of Blaenau Gwent was absent.
Richard Taylor (IKHH) voted against, as did all of the DUP, SDLP, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru, SNP and George Galloway.
The sole UUP member voted for the Bill.
73 - that reminds me of an old joke:
“What’s the difference between Sam Fox and Walt Disney?”
“Sam Fox and Walt disnae” (needs to be said in a Scottish accent)
Oops. Add Rudi Vis to the Labour MPs absent - that makes them add up right.
61 - Mark Oaten used to support ID Cards.
You will not be getting your iris scanned at the GP surgery. That maybe what the Government wants because GPs have historically been a useful way of doing things like this without incurring the otherwise extra cost of employing people to do it, but they won’t do it.
So where will you get your iris scanned and how difficult will it be for somebody to get to the location and make an appointment?
70-71. What type of info are on the ID cards?
Here we don’t have biometric data. We only have info about: name,surname,dtae of birth, place of birth, where do you live, if you’re married or not, your job, your height, colour of the hair (useless info, if someone decide to change his/her hair colour), colour of the eyes and if you’ve some “particual signs”.
We should renew it every 5 years. It isn’t even a plastic card, it’s a piece of paper.
Shame on those Labour MPs who have been loyal to Blair on ID cards.
What we have is a Labour PM who is a control freak and has become extreme right, far more right than Thatcher and a Labour Party that sold its soul and follows him like sheep as they did with the War on Iraq.
I will leave Britain before Nick Palmer tells me I have to pay 300 pounds for an ID card.
79 - and how will they know that the person whose iris they are scanning is who they say they are?
81 - “I will leave Britain before Nick Palmer tells me I have to pay 300 pounds for an ID card.” Nick will probably pay for your ticket
Nick Palmer, a questiona have you ever defied the Whips on a one, two or three Line Whip? Or and here tongue is firmly in Cheek are you a past winner of a Brinton Force Ten award?
Tabman (82)- dont be silly if you have a recent utility bill you will be fine!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4096326.stm
This tie thing is getting ridiculous …
85 - Jeremy Hunt is on my list of best looking male MPs.
Nick Palmer MP: “All rather low-key: at root there are not actually that many MPs who are deeply excited by it (the data’s all routinely-recorded stuff like date of birth and address anyway, so the main innovation is the biometric check on whether one’s who one says one is) and for most it’s just a question of whether the cost is reasonable”
David Winnick MP: “If we should not be at all concerned about these proposals, following all the reassurances that my right hon. Friend is giving, why would the Information Commissioner say that the ID card would be an “unnecessary and disproportionate intrusion” into our liberty? Should not we take Mr. Thomas’s comments very seriously indeed? Is it not also a fact that, if we had a free vote on the Bill tonight, it would certainly be thrown out?”
You pays your money and you takes your choice
77 Thanks Andy !
86. He’s single, Sophia, you’ve a chance.
85. Tabman, this thing is getting really serious. Hopefully the other parties won’t fallow the tories here.
btw I agree with your post @ 65.
89- Andrea, thanks for your concurrence with my 65. However, re Jeremy Hunt, if we’re to believe Rik on another thread, just because he’s single does not necessarilly mean Sophia is in with a chance …
Howard has avioded ID cards I see picking up on Blairs ‘i always have been a european’.
An interesting srory I heard from a young policeman at the week-end. It has nothing specifically to do with ID cards but was in answer to “have they given you any interesting cases yet” (he was at University with my nephew).
Two sixteen year old boys had entered a supermarket in a Northern town with fold-away lead lined suitcases. They took two DVD recorders each. The alarms didn’t go off but they were seen on CCTV.
They were taken to the Police station and neither spoke any English other than to say they were Rumanian and both wrote their names. By this time it was midnight but a Rumanian interpreter was brought to the station to translate as is compulsory when interviewing foreign suspects.
They told the interpreter they were asylum seekers who had been sent down from London by gangmasters to steal things from specified provincial towns and they had their return rail tickets. They took their finger prints and within five minutes discovered the names they had given were false and they had committed six similar offences in the previous two months. They had no known addresses.
As I said at the beginning this was not told to me as a story about ID cards. But if a policeman could identify accurately a person and tie that person to an address it probably has the potential to save a lot of time and money.
They were put in the cells for the night and the following day they were hoping an immigration officer could be contacted to find out what was known about these two boys. As on all preEach time after questioning they were released and each time they disappeared.
But EU citizens will be able to come in (at least for a nominally short visit) without an ID card. The reason this was not told to you as “a story about ID cards” is the utter irrelevance of ID cards to this case.
(unless we get them implemented before Romania joins, which would be an efficiency record for a government IT project!)
I’m not sure how you tie a person to an address that they don’t have
92 - Roger; clearly they already have a fingerprint database. What if our two young suspects 9as would be highly likely) did not have their (non-compulsory) ID card with them when arrested? Exaclty the same procedure would be carried out. The added benefit is that we would not have had to spend the billions for the rest of us to be given the white elephant.
90. Sophia should give us her full list best looking MPs, and then ask Nick Palmer to introduce her to someone. She could become a perfect first lady.
Re. 62, I was going to say that, book value, but you beat me to it. Ditto your argument at 69.
As for another argument, that ID cards will lead to increased police harassment of ethnic minorities (or even more than they do already), I can’t help remembering how the ‘ring of steel’ erected around the City to stop further PIRA bomb attacks led to a good many black motorists being stopped (rather ironic, when there weren’t - and aren’t - all that many black members of PIRA).
If such harrassment is applied to the Muslim community, I’d say ID cards would increase, not decrease, the risk of terrorism through the consequent alienation.
I also find the idea of having to tell the government when you move house (or incur a heavy fine) deeply sinister (though I suppose you could argue this already happens through having to note such moves on the electoral register, registration on which is now compulsory).
Why didn’t they take their fingerprints straight away?
Someone suggested in parliament yesterday that you have to notify the authorities everytime you decide to grow a beard
98 - you’d be welcome across the floor, Richard. It’s not even compulsory to like Mark Oaten
100 - “you have to notify the authorities everytime you decide to grow a beard ”
[Insert Jack W Lib Dem joke here]
So if ID cards cost more than £100 they will be paid for by the treasury, which is paid for by….
I do love New Labour.
If I were a Tory candidate I would fancy my chances in Broxtowe “your chance to defeat the father of ID cards…”
103 - but the sad thing is the argument will work. The number of letters to editors I’ve seen saying that ‘the government should pay’ for id cards - it’s as if people think the government has all it’s own money which it’s witholding from spending on us to spend on sweets instead.
Maybe this threada indicates the disconnect betweenb the poltically inteerested and those not. I’ve never seen so Many Posts so quickly, but on Planet Earth has anyone heard anyone else discussing Them ID Cards? I haven’t.
105 - Of course they aren’t P. However most of the arguments concern what will happen when the general public actually have to acquire the d**n things. It’s going to be hard enough getting people to go to ‘interviews’ for their new biometric passports!
Richard (98) Is registering on the electoral register compulsory? Has anyone been prosecuted for not being on it?
The register is I believe generally no more than 90% accurate.
107 - the fine is £1,000 in theory I believe, but it’s rarely if ever enforced. 90% would be doing quite well in many areas, particularly those with transient populations.
105 - actually, I’ve been quite surprised by how many people I know - who are largely semi-political (i.e. intelligent and moderately well-informed but not particularly interested in politics per se) hold a firm opinion on this - either for or against. Friends of mine now taunt me to frothing rants by raising the issue in the pub - I have talked about it so often and at such length that I now feel able to sum up my argument in five words: “No, no, no, no, no!”
61 - Stodge wrote: I think the LDs need to re-iterate that they have always stood foursquare against ID cardw while the Tories have twisted and turned on this as they did on Iraq.
Reply:
Disagree. If you object to something, it isn’t a good strategy to discredit those that agree with you. The opposition to these ID cards needs to be a clear message.
This is the current talking point on the BBC website - in the rather unscientific but still seemingly quite popular vote, ‘against’ was winning by 84% to 16% when I last looked.
I forecast that support for ID cards will fall to around 30%. It will be New Labour’s poll tax and these far right policies will help to bolster Respect.
P [105] - we are discussing ID cards now - Planet Earth will catch up with us over the next year or so, never fear. It always does
In several countries in Europe (Italy for instance!)) citizens require ID cards to stay in hotels. In most countries of the world foreigners are required to show a passport before staying in any hotel. To travel outside the country or to return we require a passport. Most of us have a driving licence and credit cards.
If people objected to passports as an infringement to free travel I could understand their point of view but ID cards don’t seem to be a bar to anything at all so why the fuss?
Some of us do object in principle to passports. Hence as a first step towards the free movement of people, the Uk should have signed up to the Schengen agreement.
Roger, you’re pulling the usual trick of requiring opponents of the scheme to prove that the idea is a bad thing, when the onus should be on supporters to show that it is a good thing - considering the cost and inconvenience to state and individual. The “it won’t make much difference argument” is an argument against implementation.
And passports exist to control people coming into the country, not people going out. They exist because the countries to where one might travel require them.
For David at 83,
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpn=Nick_Palmer&mpc=Broxtowe shows Nick’s voting record, except that the whip is never recorded. Nick has voted against the Labour consensus on 17 occasions since 1997, all of which may have been free votes (for example Lord’s Reform, Members Pay/Allowances/Pensions and Election of Speaker account for 10 of thsoe occasions and I believe all are free votes).
Nick’s noted “rebellions” are in being in favour of a wholly or mainly elected house of Lords and in voting for Ming Campbell for Speaker. I don’t think that the whips need panic about a possible defection to the Lib Dems, however … the Public Whip’s suggested “closest friend” for him (most similar voting pattern overall) over the last two Parliaments is the Rt. Hon. Member for Sedgefield.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/nick_palmer/broxtowe informs us that Nick “never rebels against their party - 6th out of 631 MPs” and his attendence record on votes is currently perfect “Has attended 100% of votes in parliament — 2nd out of 643 MPs.”
118 And still no red box! Most of the PL[P have had a brief Stint makes you wonder what poor NIck must have done not to get onea.
115 - Malcolm, it’s interesting to note that during Liberalism’s “golden age” (Late C19th/early C20th) passports were scrapped. WWI brought their reintroduction as a “security measure” (Plus ca change …) http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/_history/history_02.asp
118. Are we sure that Jeremy Corbyn and Nick Palmer are in the same party?
Corbyn rebelled 77 between 1997 and 2001 (8.7%) and 172 times between 2001 and 2005 (23.6%). Now he has already 5 rebellions (25%).
Glenda Jackson’s rebel stutus is strange: she rebbeled only once between 1997 and 2001, but then 67 times between 2001 and 2005.
But Nick is a PPS isnt he? Can’t remember where though just moved from DEFRA, IIRC. And you surely can only go up from DEFRA!!
Maybe Glenda was in the Government between 1997 and 2001 and was out of Government after that.
121 - wasn’t she a minister in the first Blair Government?
[92] Re your Romanian givers of false names- I can’t work out whether it is trust or just naive to beleive that the cards themselves could not be forged by criminals.
The problems are:
1) Government has a dreadful record an almost every IT project it has ever done- either massively over budget, or ineffective or both. 2) Even if the cards themselves are 100% fool proof the database is vulnerable to either misuse by government or hackers. 3) the slightest problem with a legitimate ID card could have huge inconvenience or worse 4) The state does not have the right to insist that I give them the information that they require unless this is a time of national emergency- if they try they are changing the whole character of the social contract.
So in a nutshell, ID cards will probably be an expensive fiasco, and even if they work they are intrusive and potentially dangerous. I for one will not apply and will refuse to carry one, even if the law requires it.
123. yeah, I forgot about this, but she didn’t seem to concerned by Blair when she was in the government (but at the time Blair was still loved by everyone).
Alice Mahon “resisted” only a couple on months before resigning as PPS to rebel against the government.
125 - even if they require one to purchase drinks?
[125] Aaaaarrrggghh [heavy gulp] yes even if they are required to purchase drinks- there is a principle at stake here!
[127] Anyway I would probably spend more time in Estonia- no nanny state nonesense about ID cards for drinks there!
Will we require an ID card if we choose to go and live in another European country (but nominally remain UK citizens)?
I think Glenda was a bit more senior than PPS.
129 - and the taxes are lower
“…..They exist because the countries to where one might travel require them”
You make an interesting point alex.
The only reason we have to prove our identity on return to the UK is to prove we aren’t foreigners. If a new technology exists that makes this identity check more fool proof surely this is a good thing?
And furthermore if we insist on foreigners producing their passports to register at hotels, to get money from banks, to hire cars etc etc as they do in most European countries isn’t it worth our own citizens being able to establish their identities if only to show that they shouldn’t need to?
130. She was a transport minister. I find a bit odd that when he was in the government she was ok Blair, while now she never misses an occasion to attack him (like when a week before the election said that she didn’t read the labour manifesto, that she couldn’t care less of what Milburn wrote, that she was labour even before Blair came on earth and so he couldn’t teach her Labour principles and so on).
130 - Glenda was a junior transport minister and resigned in about 1999 or 2000 to fight Frank Dobson for the right to be humiliated by Ken Livingstone. One of the more pointless resignations of recent times really.
Beat me to it, Andrea!
133 - 2005: strong Lib Dem challenge.
Did you see Blair’s weasily reply to Kennedy in the Commons today when he asked how much people who didn’t want passports would have to pay? (which of course exposes the fact that the Government are loading some of the cost of ID cards into the cost of the new biometric passports to make them look cheaper). He said that they weren’t compulsory … but then in a later question went on to extol the “benefits to the individual” of having a card. So they’re not compulsory, but you’ll lose out if you can’t afford to pay. Lucky losers.
132 - you’ve lost me. It sounds a bit to me like one of those marginal benefits being quoted all over the place because the supposed major benefits don’t stack up.
With a passport (which at the moment you don’t have to go for an interview and iris scan to have one) you have the benefit (which is solely for you) of going to and from other countries. What is the personal benefit for anyone having an id card?
138 (cont) - a bit like people saying we should join the Euro because we won’t have the inconvenience of changing money when going on holiday.
138 - exactly. Plenty of silly IT projects get approved in business, I admit - but I cannot remotely imagine anything like this going ahead, where any benefits are piecemeal, costs are massive, and risks once the system is in operation are significant and unpalatable.
139 - the usual Labour line on that is the fantastically Orwellian “You gain the right to prove your own identity.” Slavery Is Freedom!
Re. 101, I’m flattered by the invitation, book value, but Europe and law and order policies (which I suppose might change if Oaten gets replaced, though hopefully not by the even more dotty Lembit Opik) such as raising the age of criminal responsibility and allowing prisoners the vote are all formidable disincentives, alas. On the other hand, I can now see the virtues of STV. If I ever get elected as an Independent, maybe I can sit as a coalition partner in a Liberal Democrat cabinet?
Re. 114, you don’t have to go into a hotel, or leave the country, but ID cards were abolished in the first place after a court case brought by a citizen who was asked to show his ID card on the street.
I’m grateful for the feedback on non-registration. That was an argument I deliberately floated in order that it might be shot down, and it was shot down to impressive effect.
As for Printz’s point about ID cards being extreme right wing, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In fact, ID cards could easily be described as an authoritarian left-wing policy (it’s certainly easy to see them being introduced by Messrs Putin, Lukashenko and Mugabe). While ID cards, detention without trial, restrictions on right to trial by jury are all illiberal policies, other policies such as the minimum wage, SureStart, the right to join a trade union, incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law, the right to leave in a family emergency, reduction of the homosexual age of consent to 16, civil partnerships for same sex couples, and the banning of cosmetics testing on animals heavily qualify any argument that this government is even more extreme right than Thatcher. Besides, what does extreme right mean? I tend to associate the term with either the BNP or US religious right evangelicals. If, on the other hand, you use the terms ‘authoritarian’, ‘illiberal’ (ID cards, as already discussed), or ‘neo-liberal’ (PFI schemes, the Tube PPP, the proposed re-privatisation of South Eastern trains, forcing Tanzania to privatise its water supply in exchange for the debt relief which allowed free primary school education), then you’re on to something.
Are children going to be required to have them as well?
130.”Will we require an ID card if we choose to go and live in another European country (but nominally remain UK citizens)? ”
If you come to live in Italy (keeping the UK citizenship), you have the “right” to ask for an Italian ID cards. For some things it’s required to show the ID card, so many ask for it. (for ex. when you want to apply for an university, they usually ask you for a fotocopy of your ID card).
The costs to renew it every 5 years are 5.42 euros (and you’ve to take 3 photos).
139. we could come to UK showing only the ID card and not the passport.
30 - on the earlier discussion about “Nuala”, I believe it is quite a well known female name in Ireland - I knew one who said in her case it was short for Fionnuala (sorry if the spelling is wrong) - so possibly similar origin to Bill Hague’s Celtic Ffion.
Perhaps Nuala could herself educate us further …
Now back to trying to keep ‘control’ in my (all-female) workplace …
143,”As for Printz’s point about ID cards being extreme right wing, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In fact, ID cards could easily be described as an authoritarian left-wing policy (it’s certainly easy to see them being introduced by Messrs Putin, Lukashenko and Mugabe). ”
In Italy they were introduced during the fascism.
[131] Not only are taxes lower in Estonia…they are flatter!
Am I right in recalling that Estonia had zero tariffs before joining the EU?
Some questions for the ID card supporters:
1/ Can you give any specific examples of how ID cards will prevent terrorism or crime?
2/ Why didn’t they stop the Madrid bombing?
3/ How will they stop anyone who is a terrorist entering the UK?
4/ How will they stop people giving false details if stopped by the police, unless the police are going to carry portable iris scanners and finger printers and have mobile access to the entire population?
5/ Following recent newspaper reports, how can we trust that this government won’t consider selling our ID details to private companies?
6/ Won’t there always be more pressure to include more information on an ID database?
7/ How do we know the information won’t be used for political purposes?
8/ If UK borders are of concern to the Blairites, why did they agree to the expansion of the EU last year so more Eastern Europe passport forgers can let criminals swan in here? And why are our ports unprotected?
9/ What is the maximum cost that is acceptable for these cards before the scheme is scrapped? 1 billion? 2 billion? 18 billion? 30 billion?
10/ As for implementation, experts say the technology for this is unreliable. Can anyone name any new technology or anything physical that has been introduced by this government that wasn’t a cock-up?
As mentioned above, Irish citizens are a special case. They are specifically allowed to enter and live in the UK without a passport.
Furthermore, anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to take Irish citizenship. This could lead to large numbers of people from Northern Ireland, resident all over the UK but not needing an ID card
And putting this into perspective, from where, in recent history, have most of the UK’s terrorism problems some from? Hmmm.
Re. 147, Fair point - what I should have said is that they could be seen as either authoritarian right-wing (Michael Howard favoured them) or authoritarian left-wing. Equally, they can be (and are) opposed from the libertarian right (David Davis) and the libertarian left (Mark Oaten, the Campaign Group, Liberty and many moderate Labour MPs such as Kate Hoey).
To BV @ 2. The Clarke gun picture is one I’ve had in my “store” for some time and I’ve been waiting for the right opportunity. I’ve also had the headline in mind for a long time as well.
The pic was taken several years ago when Clarke was in the Home Office under Blunkett. It’s so apt
I love the stern, self-righteous look to camera, which makes the picture simultaneously both camp and menacing. Well spotted.
153. Reminds me of the rather tasteless story of the Palestinian woman who asked “Does my bomb look big in this”.
154. You’ve to admit that Blunkett was better to appear self-righteous look to camera….maybe it’s a quality required to become Home Office Secretary.
Yes - it’s not a job you could imagine
Tony BanksLord Stratford doing. Or Boris Johnson.157. Boris Johnson as Home Secretary….it should be funny.
No, Boris as Prime Minister:
Picture the scene. It’s 2010. Standing on the steps of 10 Downing Street with his smiling, highly presentable wife and four scrubbed-up kids is the new Prime Minister, fresh from his election triumph.
As he lifts his arm to wave to the jubilant crowds waiting in the sunshine, the shreds of his ripped jacket pocket flap gently in the early summer breeze. A television close-up reveals that his socks don’t match, his heavily soiled tie tells the story of that morning’s breakfast, and his rumpled, ill-fitting trousers reveal a good inch of goosey white flesh.
Prime Minister Johnson’s trademark flaxen mop of wild-man hair has also escaped the influences of image consultants or sharp scissors. The Old Etonian vowels of No 10’s first ever Boris - once regarded as too posh for the BBC - have still to surrender to the obligatory estuarine twang of the Blair era. Horrified officials take in the image being beamed around the world. You can just about get away with a genetically modified Old English sheepdog in opposition. But the charity-shop-reject look for a Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? Surely not. Amazingly, at just 46, this former quiz-show regular and long-time consort of fraudsters and earls is leader of a resurgent Conservative Party - and now at last a grateful country.
http://www.independent.co.uk
“his rumpled, ill-fitting trousers reveal a good inch of goosey white flesh.”
But I almost believed it till the revelation that it was from the nation’s leading student paper.
Oh I give up on the smileys. You know what I mean.
8,9,118 etc on Nick Palmer’s ID cards views and party loyalty.
The debate wrap up per Hansard Edward Garnier wrapping up for the antis said “The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) produced one of his unfathomable speeches, which none the less was listened to with great care” whereas the minister Tony McNulty said “I fear that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) managed to support the hon. Member for Winchester on identity cards. ”
Ouch! With friends like that….
159. If he becomes PM, I’ll videotape the moment of his arrival in Downing Street. I’m sure it’ll be remembered through the history.
Now Sophia you should try to think about Boris’s cabinet (Petronella Wyatt a