Can Paris be stopped?
July 4th, 2005
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Should punters follow lucky Tony?
With barely 36 hours to go before the crucial meeting of the IOC begins in Singapore the price on London has tightened while that on Paris has eased on which city should host the 2012 Olympic Games.
Yesterday at this time the best betting price you could have got on London was 15/4. Now that’s 3/1. Meanwhile Paris has eased from 2/9 to 2/7 - so the French capital is still the very firm favourite but there is a slight loss of confidence.
There’s little doubt that a decision for London would be a big personal boost for Tony Blair who flew in 24 hours ahead of Jacques Chirac for the last minute lobbying of the 115 IOC members who will make the final decision. The success of the weekend’s Live8 concerts will not have harmed London’s case.
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I’ve put some money on London because Tony Blair seems to have the angels with him whenever he goes into situations like this. With one thing after another always seeming to go his way he must be one of the luckiest politicians of all time.
Unless you are part of that close cirle now gathered in Singapore it is hard to call this election. But following lucky Tony at 3/1 seems a good bet.
Mike Smithson
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London MPs are naturally keener than me on the bid, but I don’t know anyone who is prepared to predict that we’ll win. I think this market may by decision day overstate London’s chances, because
most of the betters are British and their hearts rule their heads (as with the Eurovision Song Contest, when Britain’s entry always gets better ods than are justified).
Hopefully Paris will win. But does anyone know how much taxpayers’ money has already been burned on all this? I read a figure of £14 million recently, but that sounds far too low. I’m guessing £50-100m.
FWIW French radio the other day judged the london bid to be 2on the heels” of the Paris bid. My feelings are torn - we’ve never had a proper crack at hosting the games - the two previous occasions were when someone else dropped out. But like Wat Tyler, I can feel a Dome-like experience coming on.
It will be a great flood of corporate welfare, as Nike etc coin it in from their TV exposure, while British (and specifically UK) taxpayers end up with a loss. Unfortunate that no politician really dares to question anything done in the name of sport for fear of being labelled a killjoy.
What a bunch of killjoys. Think of all the things we genuinely do waste money on and then compare with something which has the power to lift a nation and bring enjoyment and excitement to millions.
BACK THE BID
Unless, of course, BV, that sport is cricket, in which case NuLab think it’s cool to dump on it…
1.”London MPs are naturally keener than me on the bid, but I don’t know anyone who is prepared to predict that we’ll win”
Newspapers reports seem to suggest that London and Paris are neck to neck.
“as with the Eurovision Song Contest, when Britain’s entry always gets better ods than are justified)”
and don’t you end in the last positions at the end?
7 - not always. Back in our early-80s heyday we used to win. Bucks Fizz ….
“I’ve put some money on London because Tony Blair seems to have the angels with him whenever he goes into situations like this. With one thing after another always seeming to go his way he must be one of the luckiest politicians of all time.”
but this time he hasn’t Mandelson to write his speech,like when he went to the EU Parliament. They could have sent Glenda Jackson to the European Parliament to read the speech and she could have won an Oscar. (Friday I saw a strange movie with Glenda and some turtles).
If regeneration really is needed in East London, it should be done anyway, not on the back of an Olympic bid. How much does a stadium cost? Surely there are better uses for that money, especially when the Olympics (and this government) have a track record of creating white elephants.
7.” Back in our early-80s heyday we used to win. Bucks Fizz ….”
Sorry, I didn’t know. I was barely born. I think that in the 60’s even Italy won once.
The thing is complicated by the voting system - the key round it seems is likely to be the penultimate round of voting where the one of Paris or London with the greatest number of “second choice votes” (which would ultimately bring them victory) could conceivably get knocked out by Madrid sweeping the board of the South American votes once New York gets knocked out. Even though both would probably beat Madrid in a head to head vote, they may not both make it to the final.
10 - Our last winner was in the early nineties. The combination of public voting and the break up of the USSR and Yugoslavia has stuffed us for ever more.
9 - why do you think Mandelson wrote his speech? AFAIK he usually writes a large part of his major speeches himself.
11.”Even though both would probably beat Madrid in a head to head vote, they may not both make it to the final. ”
maybe not. If London is knocked out, its voters could back Madrid to defeat Paris and if Paris is knocked out, its voters could back Madrid to defeat London.
7 we’ve only finished last once.
In fact it is only since the enlargement of the contest that we have started to perform badly: We have more second places (15 or 16 IIRC) in the competition’s 50 year history than any other country. Together with five winners (Sandie Shaw, Lulu, Brotherhood of Man, Bucks Fizz, Katrina & Waves), we actually have arguably the best record in the competition.
As far as overshortening the UK’s odds - this ios only really the case with high street bookmakers. Online exchanges tend to iron out these differences as the market approaches perfectness.
13 - Well obviously they could. Most observers don’t seem to think that likely though because both are superior bids. Also Barcelona had it in 1992. Historical ties (eg. - Spain/Samerica) can get you so far but are unlikely to secure the ultimate prize)
9. All Italian newspapers reported that the speech was ghost-written by Mandelson, but I read something about Blair “being helped to wirte his speech by Mandelson” in some UK newspapers too.
15 . surely the irish have the best record in eurovision?
18 - only in number of winners.
Utterly trivial, but 13: I *think* our last Eurovision winner was Katrina and the Waves in 1997 (OK, she’s American, but don’t quibble). I only know that because some amusing parallels were drawn with Labour’s GE victory (former also-ran, unsuccessful for decades, finally snatches victory to public acclaim, etc., etc.).
19 -
That’s almost a Lib Dem argument
20 - http://www.royandhg.com/ ?
20. We have solved the mistery. UK doesn’t win anymore the Eurovision Contest becuase of Blair and NewLabour. The tories should campaign on this issue (it couldn’t work worse than the “save the pound”)
20 You are right but Katrina is Australian!
London won’t win the bid for the same reason we don’t do well in the Eurovision Song Contest these days - Iraq
24 - “Rik Willis Doesn’t Know Everything Shocker!!!”
Sorry old chum, but the Band’s offical website says she’s American: http://www.katw.com/
Rik if thinking of Gina G, who song the very catch “Oh Ah Just a Little Bit”. Katrina is of course an anglophile American.
23 …. you have a point
Thatcher 7.3.1.7.6.7.4.7.13.2.2.6 avg pos 5th
Major 10.2.2.10.8.8 avg pos 7th
Blair 1.2.12.16.15.3.26.16.22 avg pos 13th
Rik is thinking of Gina G, who song the very catch “Oh Ah Just a Little Bit”. Katrina is of course an anglophile American.
27 - So our Bronze Buddha (of Suburbia) is proven to have Feet of Clay.
Katrina lives in Newmarket. And is American.
“London won’t win the bid for the same reason we don’t do well in the Eurovision Song Contest these days - Iraq ”
Rubbish. The UK doesn’t do well in Eurovision nowadays because we are not a Balkan state. France and Ireland don’t do well in Eurovision now and it is nothing to do with the war.
28 - What matters is winning! Of those Blair’s record is best 1 out of 9 compared to Thatcher’s 1 out of 12.
You have to go a long way to beat Wilson’s record: Three firsts, Three seconds.
Icarus - I think you’ll find Blair’s victory, the day after he bacame PM, was part of the golden legacy from the previous administration
Ooops - OK I give in!!!! Shows how much I know about Eurovision. I will stick to politics. Hehe
Our main problem is that we are one of the few countries which doesn’t have sizeable numbers of emigrants concentrated in other countries. Russians for example make up 20% of the population of most of baltic states, more than enough to ensure 12pts from each of those countries. Our best chance of any success in the future is to enter the four constituent parts of the union separately. Perhaps Guensey, Jersey and the Isle of Man could bring in a few more.
Because that is the equivalent to what has happened with Russia and the balkans.
Rik - disappointed not to see you at the London Conference on Saturday.
but is it really all that important to win the Eurovision Contest?
I think Italy was the only country which praied not to win, because we should have been obliged to organize the next edition (too much costs and no one would have watched it). So at the end it was decided not to send a singer anymore.
Italy cannot enter next year because they fail to meet one of the criteria.
New YouGov poll: Lab 38% (+1%), Cons 33% (+1), Lib Dem 20% (-4). Very similar to the ICM poll last month. Still it doesnt tell us mcuh except that Labour are having no honeymoon this time and that the Lib Dems dont look to be profiting from the Tory leadership discussion.
38 - why did something worthwhile happen? I doubt it! lol
42 - Probably the most useful half day we’ve had in years
40. I’m sure that even if we would have met the criteria, we wouldn’t have entered the contest. Nobody here knows what the Eurovision Contest is. The last time we took part, the show was aired by Italian TV in the middle of night (something like 2 AM).
“George & Mildred” reruns could get better timeslots (Jack W will be desperate).
43 - Andy - do I know you?! How was it useful?
After the shambles Italy made of the last time they hosted it I don;t think there’s a huge clamour for their return.
Although two of my favourite ever entries were by Al Bano & Romina Power and Umberto Tozzi & Raf
45.”do I know you?! ”
Rik, you’re so requested that you couldn’t even remember if you have met someone or not.
Rik, of course you know me. I am the ghost of conferences past.
45, 48 - goodness me, this sounds interesting! Perhaps Jack Kinkell, in his Tory days, was there to observe.
48 give a clue or email me on rik_w@blueyonder.co.uk
46.”After the shambles Italy made of the last time they hosted it I don;t think there’s a huge clamour for their return.
Although two of my favourite ever entries were by Al Bano & Romina Power and Umberto Tozzi & Raf ”
You seem to be an Eurovision expert, how many times did Italy win?
One for sure (in the 60’s with Gigliola Cinquetti), but did we win more than once?
AlBano & Romina broke their marriage a couple of years ago. Their songs are considered so “trash”.
51 - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.hart/lyricsr/renee.html
52 - that was an attempt to bring together several threads of this conversation under one of the worst records ever to “grace” the UK chart …
53. The lyrics are pretty bad….
It seems that London team made a gaffe today directly criticizing Paris (it’s not allowed)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,4662-1680252,00.html
Andrea: my period of expertise is mainly the eighties and nineties.
Toto Cutugno also won for Italy in 1990 with a song entitled “Insieme 1992″. He then hosted the following year’s disaster.
54 - I’m not sure that’s entirely a gaffe. If London had gone into the final lap as favourites they would have been wise to keep smiling and doing the “charm offensive” thing. They haven’t gone in as favourites though, and need to cast doubt on the quality of the Paris bid (which received an outstanding report) to be in with any realistic chance. London’s problem at the moment is saying why people shouldn’t rally behind favourites who received outstanding initial and final reports (London also received a very good final report but lost ground earlier on by having a more qualified initial report).
The stadium does appear to be one of the few potential weak points of the Paris bid and I think it would be a mistake not to try to play that card. Paris’ response, of course, is “at least we have an actual stadium - London’s only exists on paper” which is fair enough.
48 A clue Rik? How many Andy’s from Greenwich do you know?
56. But doing so and almost breaking the rules they present themself as “subdles”. Paris refusing to present an official complain played the situation well trying to act like they’re superior to those types of things.
55- oh, yes. Now I remember him and his win. He hosted with Mrs Cinquetti the following edition. I read that they were a disaster. Mrs Cinquetti is still hosting shows: she has a show on the third channel of the state TV (but it’s the “channel of the left” and they never refuse a show to one their supporters like the other channels do with their supporters).
57 - lol I am old and forgetful! (Ex GLA?)
59. No
60 - you will have to help me out here!!!
Friday I will be in Cheadle so will report back what I find. I am still hearing that we are doing well but not expecting to take the seat. I will see what I find when I have been there on the ground. Though to listen to some on here during the GE, anyone who has actually visited a seat is automatically disqualified from comment on the grounds that thay must be prejudiced by their close contact with the campaign!
Its a pity a few more politicians have not stated the obvious…..that hosting the games in London will bring shame on the Uk as a whole ….recent history suggests the stadiums will not be on time or on budget…(WEmbly the dome etc) it will be impossible to transport people around the city….London is one of the least attractive cities in Europe to stay for any length of time….as a place to live its not even the best city in England…..if the bid is successful it will further concentrate sports resources in the SE of England…..during Euro 96 I spoke to fans from most countries all of whom agreed that the stadia outside london were the best and their experience of the people etc was much more positive…
I hope Madrid wins but am not sure the link with South America will help…….Spain is not viewed in a positive light by many South Americans for obvious historical reasons….
58 - True, but Paris can afford to (and indeed must) act as if they are above it because they are ahead. There is no point London turning up and being nice to everybody because there is no point coming a good second. London has little choice but to try to bring down Paris by fair means or foul.
Conventional elections are much the same. You can normally tell who is ahead and who is behind in the final 48 hours because the party which is losing will put out very negative late leaflets and the one which is winning will put out very positive ones. Both are acting entirely rationally - sometimes the risky negative push will work (and if it is counterproductive, so what?), while the leader is always wise to avoid risks and keep it positive because they have say an 80% chance of winning if they just keep smiling and waving.
62 - whilst agreeing with your Woodward sentiments, Henson and Williams didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory either!
FWIW Mahir Bose in Singapore reporting for The Daily Telegraph today says that a poll of the 100 first round IOC voters in a local paper has the following figures :
London 45
Madrid 18
New York 14
Moscow 12
Paris 11
Bose does qualify the poll by stating that :
“…….. the indications are that this is a rogue poll and Paris are still ahead . However London may not be far behind and could catch up after three or four rounds of voting ….”
In which case this is not a rogue poll but a Jeffrey Archer of one !!
64 to right…..when he changed the team so radically it was a disaster although of course the welsh media now look very silly after he did what they suggested…..
The Welsh team is greater than the sum of its parts the Lions team was less than the sum of its parts………Henson is someone who needs very careful handling by a good coach….Woodward has utterly lost the plot beliving his own propaganda….
63-but they could have told their concerns over the stadium individually to undecided voters and not during a press conference. It’s the reason they’re there: to be able to talk privately with potential voters.
66 - Ryan Jones is one of the few to come out with reputation enhanced (Hodgson too, I would suggest - part of me wants him to have a run out next w/e but part of me thinks another drubbing could undo the rebuilding of his fragile confidence).
The whole story’s a complete nonsense. It was a slip of the tongue by a bloke who isn’t even part of the official bid team. The fact that some in athletics have doubts about the suitability of the Stade de France is hardly a state secret.
65 - very funny
How can a poll that incorporates the entire voting population be a rogue poll? A made-up poll maybe!
70. The eligible voters are 99 (http://www.olympic.org/uk/news/events/117_session/full_story_uk.asp?id=1385), but they polled 100 voters!
67 - I take your point, although in many ways a story about a London whispering campaign against Paris would carry greater risks.
62 - I think this is unfair on London. Although I have no strong feelings about which country should host the Games, London has put together a detailed bid which has impressed the IOC and I think they would do an excellent job. London is a magnificent city with terrific cultural diversity, a thriving arts scene, great architecture and galleries and pollution levels which are actually significantly lower than most large cities. There are transport problems but the transport network carries substantially more people than are carried in Paris each day - and in any event people who praise the Paris or New York Metro systems (I can’t comment on Madrid) haven’t travelled on either lately. London is not the only great city bidding for the Games but I really don’t agree with the idea that a London Olympics would “bring shame on the UK”. By the way, I don’t live in London - but I will put my Bristol Olympics campaign on hold for the time being for the good of the nation!
FWIW a business friend of mine took a a heavy punt at either 8/1 or 10/1 for London in the States immediately Seb Coe became leader of the London bid . He hasn’t laid a penny of it !!
My own veiw is that this race really is too close to call and that the London odds offer good value . However I don’t have the “betting confidence” to take the plunge.
BTW , Rik will be pleased at the headline if London win :
” Tory in Resounding Worldwide Victory “
70/71 , Alex & Andrea . Don’t ask me to explain it , they probably did the poll on the back of a fag packet ! (Are the population allowed to smoke in Singapore ? Isn’t chewing gum banned ?) Anyway Mahir Bose is well respected in Sports journalism and I’d take the rest of his report seriously.
Sorry no link , it’s a premium site.
73. Jack, is this the Bose’s article you are referring to?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2005/07/04/sobose04.xml&sSheet=/sport/2005/07/04/ixothspt.html
74 , Andrea . Yes ?!?!? In the middle ages you’d be burned at the stake for such wizardry !!
It’s a registration site, not a premium site
75. No wizardry. I simply went to The Telegraph website and I’m not a registred user.
Yes I am registered on Telegraph site and embarrassed every time I log on to be welcomed to “S****** W******’s” Telegraph.
You can smoke in Singapore, though they have one of the more effective ad campaigns against it, which is to mark out an area of tarmac at pedestrian crossings with “This is how much tar you inhale by smoking for a year.”
78 - you need an alias instead, like “leicsjodyfan55″ or something.
73-78 . OK I’m a plank !! …. Although Tabman will now be looking for alter egos ?!?!! … Am I a plank cut from a mighty oak or a nasty leylandia ?
Sadly, book value, but I’m failing to understand….sorry.
I seem to remember Icarus being a fan of Jody Dunn. And living in Leicestershire.
84. but were you referring to post number 79, not 79?
Yes - to Icarus not to you: I see why you were confused! I think a delayed comment may have made it into the thread and thrown the numbering out.
7 No, Britain stopped winning when it started sending crap songs. There was a lot of talk about the ex-URRS countries voting for each other. They didn’t win though. Non of the “old” Eurovision countries sent anything of any interest. I thought the Spanish entry had something, but the song went no-where. It was basically just a catchy chorus.
I’ll get worried about Eurovision fairness when GOOD songs don’t win. As it was, I think this year’s winner was the best of a bad lot.
87 - ah yes, she certainly was…
69#
The whole story’s a complete nonsense. It was a slip of the tongue by a bloke who isn’t even part of the official bid team. The fact that some in athletics have doubts about the suitability of the Stade de France is hardly a state secret.
Comment by alex — 4/7/2005 @ 12:22 pm
Yes, but the fact that the world championships in the Stade de France were a huge success isn’t a state secret either. I don’t think this will run with the IOC. It was a concern BEFORE the world championships, and the world cup Paris holds every year. Not now.
I might remind the UK, that it had to chicken out of its world championships because it didn’t HAVE a stadium. And a stadium that’s a football stadium (like the Stade de France), has the same problems. Though Wembly will probably benefit from lessons learned at the Stade de France.
I think comments of this sort are silly (and risk being counter-productive as being against the Olympic spirit). Both Paris and London have a top-notch bid. Personally, I think, as this is our third bid we should get these, and that London should build what it has promised and get the next European games.
Charyxena - we are not intending to hold the athletics at Wembley so that’s a bit of an irrelevant point
90 OK, so the stadium doesn’t exist, and the bid thinks that it will be better than a place that has already held a world championships.
Sorry, but that’s hardly a good selling point. At least Wembley is a world renowned brand. And how will the stadium live afterwards?
And as for the Métro/RER versus London Underground, while I don’t think LU is as bad as it’s painted, there’s no contest, sorry. You whizz around the Ile de France and it takes half an hour to go 2 stops on LU.
LU also costs an arm and a leg. I don’t know how Londoners can afford to go anywhere.
Charyxena - I am under the impression that the main concerns about the French bid are exactly the fact that it is relying heavily existing infrastructure and therefore will not leave the “Olympic leagacy” for the future
I’ve been on the Metro, I didn’t like it I got lost. All the signs were in French
Totally, totally OT, but curious to know what people think. What should the odds be on the following:
i) 28 years of Bush - Clinton rule (so that’s Hillary to win 2008 and a second term);
ii) 36 years of Bush - Clinton rule (the above, then two subsequent terms for Laura Bush);
iii) 44 Bush - Clinton years (both of the above, plus two terms for Chelsea Clinton)?
“All the signs were in French ”
but the French are unique in the use of their language. I think that they’re the only ones who don’t use the word “computer” (but ordinateur). They call the “tiebreak” in a tennis match “le jeu decifif” and the “gay pride” is “la marche de fiertés homosexuelles”.
92 It will renovate two areas of the city, which badly need it. One of which is very close to my flat. As a Parisian, it will have a first rate legacy for me.
Personally, I think too many white elephants were the problem with Athens, and apparently even Sydney.
I really don’t think the UK should talk down its rivals in this way. It makes it look anti-Olympic and arrogant. In fact, it is the only bad point I can see in the London bid. The UK should remember “fair-play” is an English word.
Personally I find it heart-breaking that such a great city as New York hasn’t been able to get its act together. New York would be a fabulous place for the games.
93 That will not of course bother the IOC, since French is an Olympic language.
28 years of Bush - Clinton rule (so that’s Hillary to win 2008 and a second term);
Or Jeb….
97 - Good point.
95 “but the French are unique in the use of their language”
Yes, how amazingly silly of them to want to speak their own language in their own country!
Yes, very selfish of them.
94 I’ll have a stab at what odds I would touch on these markets:
(i) 28 yrs: should be four times the current betfair odds on Hillary getting Dem nomination (assuming that all US elections are essentially 50-50 calls at present until nearer the time)
(ii) 36 yrs: take the odds of (i), multiply by 100
(iii) 44 yrs: take the odds of (ii), multiply by 200.
In addition, all odds should be made more favourable to account locking up stake money — matching the interest that would be earned by putting money in a building society for that number of years.
In other words — (i) could be a bet, but (ii) would have to be offered at well over 1000 to 1. And the bookie would still be quids in even then…
101 - 1000/1? Really? Even with locking up stake money that seems a bit high. George Galloway to be next Labour leader is 169/1!
Yeh and obviously plenty of us would be dead by the time iii) or even ii) came to pass… like I said, just curious.
Just returned from an (unsuccessful) trip to the European Bridge championships in Tenerife. The news was that 2 Italians were caught cheating, and banned from the event. The amazing thing was how brazen they were.
Caught up on MS’s tips—DC still available at 6-1, so I had some of that. London now 5-2 for the Olympics; I didn’t play, as I hate missing the price.
Now I want London to win the Olympics:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4649007.stm
2,4 & 25-Hope you are right.
Hopefully the committee will not want to take a risk on London when the Paris infrastructure is already in place.
London council tax payers are expected to pay for 50% of the cost,of course there was no consultation on whether they want it or not,no surprise though with Livingstone involved.
An interesting bet would be the actual cost of the games versus the Livingstone numbers.
2,4 & 25-Hope you are right.
Hopefully the committee will not want to take a risk on London when the Paris infrastructure is already in place.
London council tax payers are expected to pay for 50% of the cost,of course there was no consultation on whether they want it or not,no surprise though with Livingstone involved.
An interesting bet would be the actual cost of the games versus the Livingstone numbers.
105 - Not half as much as the Finns!
95 - actually the Spanish say “ordenador” (while the Latin Americans say “computadora”).
Italians are probably happiest at using Enslish words - even saying NATO (instad of OTAN).
105 - hmmm, I might accept the charge from an Italian or Spanish leader but I don’t think France, Germany or Russia has much to be proud about. They have stagnated culinarily while we’ve evolved which, come to think of it, could be read as a bit of a parable.
Methinks three portions of deep fried mars bars on the way for those cheese eating, vodka swilling surrender bratwursts…
104.”The news was that 2 Italians were caught cheating, and banned from the event”
Guess why I’m not surprised by this news?
We have even MPs who try to cheat voting for absent MPs!
107 - I think you can still get a decent meal in France with greater ease than in the UK. Germany is more or less on a par with the UK IMO. Russia was terrible last time I was there . but they were communists in those days. “Les anglais mangent à vivre, les français vivent à manger” as they say.
102 — I’m sure bookies would offer much lower odds, and I’m sure some uninformed punters would take them… I was just trying to second-guess what sort of level would persuade Mike S to recommend the bet as a value bet.
On a related topic — what new political markets would it be good to see prices on? Here are some ideas.
Spreads:
‘All Change Please’ — how many of the current cabinet will be serving cabinet members when parliament is dissolved for the next GE? / or in the first cabinet appointed after next election? I would want to buy the former at 11-12 (a GB continuity cabinet at first), but I would sell the latter as low as 6 to allow for poss hung parliament.
Fixed odds:
Decent German election markets please. Wd be excellent to see odds on CDU/CSU vote shares >50%, 45-50%, <45%. And also on PDS/Lafontaine <10%, 10-15%, >15%.
111.”Decent German election markets please. Wd be excellent to see odds on CDU/CSU vote shares >50%, 45-50%, <45%. And also on PDS/Lafontaine <10%, 10-15%, >15%. ”
I want a market about PDS/Lafontaine being the most voted party in East Germany.
109–An unsurprised Andrea at Italians cheating. The surprise was their being caught, breaking the first rule of cheats. The two players were paid 200,000 euros per year each to play on Madam Lavazza’s team. They are now unemployable…
107 - don’t agree if the comparison is Paris v London, but outside the capitals you may have a point.
107. When I went to UK, I remember people eating eggs at breakfast. I was shocked (I was young).
110 - I’m sorry but this eat to live etc argument is nonsense. Granted, historically, the French have tended to the flamboyant at mealtimes as we have tended to the functional, but 1) this image is at least 20 years out of date, and 2) yes, historically our main courses may have tended to the meat and two veg, but surely nowhere on earth matches Britain for our puddings and our confectionary - just visit any a) sweet shop, or b) cake stall at village fete. They don’t get jams, properly abroad, either, and our baffled by our abundance of crisp flavours. I’ve had several gastronomically exciting holidays in Italy, but after a week or so I start to hanker for a proper stodgy pudding - a chocolate fudge cake or some such. And don’t get me started on continental incompetence in tea-making.
Also, we have more cheeses than France, and with more variety to the flavours.
Basically, I like British Food.
Paris is rather spoiled by all those tourist restaurants - but there are plenty of others. I´m pleased to hear that cooking in Bermondsey has improved since the by-election - indeed I tried a few of those places around Borough market when I was last in London. But eat in Dijon, Bordeaux, or even Alsace and you’ll find the food better than in Newcastle or - dare I say it - Birmingham (even with the Balti Houses).
Knocking Scottish food seems out of order though. I was in Gairloch a while ago and the seafood beat anything else I’ve had anywhere in the world.
The supermarkets in Dover and Folkestone will tell you just how much the French like our cheeses and sausages. Because they are not allowed to buy them in France, they come on day trips to stock up. As well as shoes and children’s clothes, apparently.
All other points accepted, but French cheeses wipe the floor with English ones, and still taste nicer even then…
In fairness, I must credit Paris (specifically a sandwich bar full of office workers somewhere near the Tuileries) with the finest snack ever: walnut and roquefort sandwich on pain a l’ancienne (or is it ancien?)
There are 250 kinds of French cheese of which about 20 taste different… IHMO
The Westcountry on it’s own produces as many good cheeses…
115 Are you not more shocked by the british tendency to ask for a cappucino at the end of meal?
Apologies for the appalling grammatical error..
124 - that reminds me of the story posted last week about Alessandra Mussolini’s hunger strike. Apparently she was subsisting on three cappuccini a day, which I assume must mean she went from 10am to 8am the next day without fluid…
124. I didn’t notice it….but yes, I find it a bit weird. Why not a coffee?
Cappuccino is for breakfast.
91 - And while I’m about this sort of thing, I think the vitriol habitually poured on the London Underground is unnecessary too. The LU is a fantastic beast which any other British city would give it’s bottom-left suburb for. Londoners who complain about public transport simply don’t know they’re born. Single journeys in the city are expensive, but daycards are remarkably cheap, and really, there’s no better way to get around the city. The metro, on the other hand, seemed to meander languidly about the city in no real hurry at all, taking an age to get where you wanted, and it was only after a couple of days in Paris that I relaised that most places were quicker to walk to. Also it smelt bad, was dimly lit, and seemed to be populated entirely with ranting nutters.
I agree that the metro was cheaper (I think) - but I don’t buy the oft-peddled argument that it’s superior in every respect to the LU.
Please don’t think I’m sat here humming patriotic songs as I’m typing this; I recognise there is much about France that is pleasant too, I just think the stereotype of British food and of the London underground is a lot worse than the reality.
The French, however, are much better at the food they provide on and around their public transport. I’ll give them that one.
There are two Frances. Paris and Non-Paris. The latter is beautiful, clean, full of friendly people, good reasonably priced food et cetera.
Genherally speaking you get a much better variety of food in the UK than in France. In most places restaurants serve French food. here you will get cuisine (not all of it top notch, admittedly) from all over the world.
130 - I think we have an anologue for that here, too.
A London Olympics could be held as a World Olympics both in the way it is branded in advance and in the atmospere at each sporting event . There would be strong attendances for even the most obscure sports with support from the hundreds of thousands of people from across the world who have chosen to make London their home I dont believe Paris can achieve the same impact - it would be a French Olympics - probably a very good Olympics but a French event . I feel that the current politcal mood would be for a more World branded event and this shoudl favour London . However , it is very difficult to predict what motivates the IOC members - but the price looks good so I have backed London
128 - Quite. It’s easy to run an efficient metro/underground service when nobody uses it!
Another thing I remember about British food, without wanting to be offensive, but you aren’t able to make a good pizza.
And once I was offered to drink an orange juice during lunch!
Yes, sadly we seem to have imported our pizza technique from America rather than Italy.
Fruit juice used to be regarded as a starter: you might get a set menu with a choice of soup or orange juice… mercifully this idea has gone these days though I do remember it when I was younger.
20 - is children’s clothes due to VAT though rather than style?
I think French food has a very definite edge in the sense that if you pick a place serving food completely at random it is likely to be good in France and poor in the UK. In particular, you can get a very decent meal in a lot of apparently grotty bars and cafes in France, but are rarely pleasantly surprised in the UK (transport food included as John says).
If, however, you make an informed choice based on a recommendation, British food has come a long way - and generally speaking the range of different types of food is better here.
134 - the pizzas we get in this country seem to be descended more often from American pizzas than Italian pizzas. (Which isn’t to say they’re necessarily bad, just not what you’d expect if you were an Italian). The only good Italian style pizzas I’ve had in Britain have been in Italian restaurants run by Italians.
The fact that I’m not quite sure why being offered orange juice to drink is wrong probably illustrates Andrea’s point perfectly.
123 - Jon I’m struggling with the list of distinctive WestCountry cheeses. On the French side I quickly come up withChaorce, Ble d’auvergne/Roquefort, Brebis des Pyernees, Bresse Ble, Raclette, tomme, Langres, camambert. Then on the Endglish side Stilton (very good start) Dorset blue vinny (also very good), Double Glos (sometimes v good but see below), Farmhouse cheddar, red leicester…sadly the last three often taste exactly the same (and sometimes seems to be the same cheese with different colouring).
On beer of course there’s no contest!
Metro/Undergroud - it is the RER that makes the difference I think.
Catering on trains is now - I think - marginally better in the UK than France.
I’d still choose a restaurant at random in Italy though. As long as you follow Andy’s three golden rules of Italian cuisine:
1. Never eat in an “osteria”
2. Never eat anywhere offering a “menu turistica”
3. Never eat at a restaurant with pink tablecloths.
Peter I don’t know where you buy cheese but I’ve never had any confusion between cheddar, red leicester and double gloucester.
138 - More great British cheeses (admittedly not west country) are Shropshire Blue, Cheshire, Lancashire, Wensleydale, Derby sage, Caerphilly - all of which are very tasty and entirely different from one another and from the ones already listed.
139 - add: never eat anywhere where the menu outside is in English; never eat anywhere where there is a photograph of the food.
Barcelona Airport used to have a terrible place with photos and a translation of the spanish “Platos calientes” as “Plates hots”!
137 - I wouldn’t want orange juice with my food, maybe beforehand if I weren’t drinking an alcoholic aperitif.
139 - but even if you broke those exceptions, I don’t think you’d get something completely awful.
Having praised Spain earlier, it would still be wise to avoid those “platos combinados” which are so temptingly advertised by photos of a bit of greasy meat and a fried egg.
What’s that Scottish one - Caboc? Also Yarg (Cornish).
139- An osteria could be very bad or good. It depends.
“Menu tursitici” are cheap, but usually not very good.
Where the hell did you find a restaurant with pink tablecloths?
137. We never drink orange juice at lunch, like we don’t eat eggs at breakfast.
As a former cheese buyer for Sainsbury’s … I think good Lancashire (mild) takes some beating (and I also like Gruyere).
And from John C on 128
“……and seemed to be populated entirely with ranting nutters.”
Coming from PB.com that seem a bit hard on the Paris Metro.
146 - eggs at breakfast are good for you and make you brainy!
146 - Andrea - you don’t eat eggs at breakfast?! When DO you eat eggs?
147 - Icarus, where do I apply for your old job?
146 - Rome.
149. I ate them at lunch today. With spinaches.
147 - “Cheese-eating out-to-tender monkey”?
Another rule - never eat near the Vatican!
It was good fun. I had a male secretary at Sainsbury’s called Gordon who told stories of his previous employer Dorothy Squires (anyone remember her)- His line was “I thought the Gay Gordon was a dance until I worked at Sainsbury’s)
154. maybe the rule is to avoid too touristic places.
The Cornish do a nice yarg - I’ll give them that if nothing else.
http://www.thecheeseweb.com/contentok.php?id=4
and they vote very wisely in General Elections
Sorry for the off-topic political reference: I’ll try not to stray again.
155.”I had a male secretary at Sainsbury’s called Gordon ”
are there female secretary called Gordon too?
I thought Gordon was only a male name, but I’ve always thought that Hilary Benn was a woman….
159 , Andrea .”… I’ve always thought Hilary Benn was a woman..”
I’m afraid for a very long time I thought you Andrea were a woman !!
Sorry , not too many men in UK called Andrea except some of Tabman’s tranny friends , best not go into that too much… all those gawdy frocks, false boobs, sandals and beards and that’s just the canvass teams !!
London’s odds are shortening . Best price I could find was 11/4 with Bluesquare and Paddypower and as little as 2/1 with Bet 365. Paris has drifted with best odds of 5/13 at Bet 365 and out at 1/4 with Paddypower.
Do you have any other info Mike ?
Just out of interest Yarg is not some long lost Cornish word but simply ‘Gray’ backwards - the name of the people who invented the cheese. Sorry for the nerdy fact.
There are a number of nice cheeses produced around here (Devon & Cornwall) - but most of them are only bought from one or two farm stalls and not widely available to people such as Gordon. It is a sad fact of many produce - not just cheese - that once it goes into mass production it often loses its distinctiveness, but otoh why should we not have the choice and savings offered by mass markets? A conumdrum that I fear will never be solved
Graham - you have ruined Yarg for me. I think we Brits are - in general too concerned about getting a homogenous product - athough beer and scrumpy are good exceptions to the rule. It’s a pity too that we are so lax in labelling. Double Gloucester ought to be made in the county with the milk of the eponymous cattle. I’ve only heard of one producer who has done so in recent years. The stuff you get in supermarkets (now that Icarus has moved onto net curtainry) is made from the wrong milk in the wrong places - and almost always has the wrong texture.
Tabman at 145 - there’s Orkney smoked cheese - but it probably doesn’t qualify as Scottish…
Telegraph YouGov ID card poll
Overall ID card support: 45%
Support for ID cards if costing £6b: 25%
Those expecting efficient introduction: 10%
Conclusion: ID cards = Labour Poll Tax.
No wonder so many Tories didn’t bother turning up to vote against it.
165 - what do you think this is, some sort of site for the discussion of political developments? Kindly stay on the topic of cheese.
Would now be a good moment to point out that the Ploughman’s Lunch is not an old traditional British dish of the sort beloved of President Chirac but was in fact invented by Hovis as a clever device for flogging bread? That’s the pernicious influence of global capitalism for you.
166 - Am I the only person here who thinks cheese is kind of revolting. Its just milk thats gone off, some of it even has mould on it. What is wrong with you people! On the other hand I do quite like Wotsits and mini cheddars.
167 - Max - this is precisely the traditional Scottish food that Chirac will be served at Gleneagles!
167 - I think you are on your own on this matter Max. I particularly adore blue cheese, the stronger the better.
168 - I hope they serve him haggis. Preferably properly cooked - in batter and then deep fried. Perhaps followed by a deep-fried Mars bar with extra chips. The meal could be accompanied by a nice bottle of British (tonic) wine that is particularly popular in Scotland - I refer of course to Buckfast!
I wonder what he make of that menu. As I’ve said before my usual lunch at school, a deep fried half-pizza with chips washed down with Irn Bru never did me any harm.
162 - when the revolution comes we will all have hand-made Rolls Royces!
170 - “I wonder what he make of that menu. As I’ve said before my usual lunch at school, a deep fried half-pizza with chips washed down with Irn Bru never did me any harm.” [Cough, wheeze, slputter] “And I don’t know if I’m 25 stone or 26 stone - but who’s counting anway?”
Tabman - I forgot to add that I usually had a couple of cigarettes as well. An essential part of a well balanced diet!
167 - Max. Not even Wensleydale?
http://cheesediaries.com/
175 - Strathdon Blue sounds rather mouthwatering.