Is compulsory voting Blair’s secret weapon?
August 5th, 2005
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Will imposing fines on non-voters ensure that Labour stays in power?
To Labour officials the party’s supporters must be exasperating. For there’s a big gap between the number who say they support the party and those that actually vote. If some means of boosting turnout can be found, they believe, then Labour’s grip on power could be even stronger than it is at the moment.
Labour’s Plan A was to make voting easier. Making postal voting available to everybody seemed to provide the solution - except it didn’t. This was because the process of filling in and having witnessed the forms and then putting them in the correct envelopes was quite daunting for many electors even after Labour had eased the rules. So the machines of all the parties got involved with “helping” postal voters and it was no wonder that scandals like that in Birmingham happened.
In another move Labour tried all postal voting so that you could not cast your ballot in any other way. This allowed a simplified return process and was used in many areas in last year’s Euro election. But this ran into problems with the Electoral Commission when it was slammed because it was open to abuse. The problem is that if you simplify the process too much you are wide open to fraud and the whole voting system comes into disrepute.
Labour’s Plan B is compulsory voting - the thinking being that if the carrot does not work then use the stick. The idea was floated by Geoff Hoon in the same week as the first London bombs went off. The idea is that if people fail to vote they get fined. Looking at what Hoon said there can be little doubt that this is being seriously considered. If the party wants to be certain of continued power then some means has to be devised that gets its idle supporters to vote.
And if non-voters think they can get away with this by not registering on the electoral roll ministers have thought of that. As the Guardian reports today the Government is considering introducing automatic voter registration for all council tax payers. But any measure that extends the electoral register without compulsory voting is likely to produce lower turnout percentages.
Should a party that got just 35% of the national vote in May be allowed to change the rules for its own electoral advantage?
Will this be ready for the next General Election and if so what would be the impact? It looks as though there will be some interesting battles ahead.
Mike Smithson
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Rubbish! Such a law would violate basic human rights and one of the basic rights is the right to vote and the right not to vote. It is the obbosite of what democracy is. You can not force someone to vote by force of law.
I’m too tired after a long night shift to argue about this one. I cannot believe that someone else is up and posting so early in the morning.
1. Except that in several countries (Australia, Greece and the Netherlands for instance) voting is compulsory. The idea was floated in a Fabian Society document (http://www.fabian-society.org.uk/documents/ViewADocument.asp?ID=33&CatID=52) by MPs Tom Watson and Mark Tami. I think it is highly likely we will see compulsory voting introduced.
Oh yes… and you can always spoil your ballot paper.
I am very much against it personally (for the reasons Heinrich states) but I cannot see it happening. It would be extremely politically dangerous for Labour - it will enhance a perception of them (and Blair in particular) as extremely arrogant in power. A lot of the “apathetic” intensely dislike the government while currently not having enough enthusiasm for any of the alternatives. Well, if you force them to vote…
Will it be ready for the next General Election? I would bet my house on the Lords kicking it out, so it will eat up Commons time for at least two sessions. Another reason why I doubt they’ll risk it.
An obvious point but I will make it anyway.
Just because someone pays council tax does not mean they are entitled to a vote. Of course I wait for NuLab to say ID cards are the solution….
This has quite a lot of support, both among active politicians and in parts of the public, some of whom feel about it like Norman Tebbit feels about cricket - if you’re not taking part you’re not doing your bit for the country. The last poll I saw had a substantial (2-1?) majority against, though, and the general view is that the party that introduced it would be punished by the people they’d forced to vote.
Labour supporters are naturally tempted by the evidence that non-voters probably would vote Labour more if they did. It does however give more power to the tabloids - if you force someone who’s not really interested to vote, he’ll probably be more influenced by what the Sun tells him (which is currently that MPs have all gone off on holiday and don’t care about the country, incidentally).
It might happen, but I think that positive incentives to vote are probably more likely - a free national lottery ticket is the obvious one, which doesn’t cost anything (the prize doesn’t change) but shifts the chance of a win slightly towards those who bother to vote. But there are snags with every option - for instance, some object to the Lottery on principle.
Actually I have an instinct that UKIP would be the biggest gainers, by using this to tap into a fairly amorphously populist anti-Blairism.
Free lottery ticket… mmmmmmm… must vote
And isn’t it a bit unfair on people who buy a lottery ticket that week? They - effectively - see their ticket diluted.
I agree with pretty much everything said here! I am dead against the government forcing people to do everything, and I don’t want the votes of people who don’t care either way enough to vote voluntarily; nevertheless, I expect it, like id cards, to be brought in eventually, and I expect UKIP to be the main beneficiaries.
Heinrich, you shouldn’t be able to force someone by the power of the law, but I bet they’ll have a good go.
Another point - if the link is made more explicit that voting and taxation go together, surely we’ll just see fewer people paying tax?
7 - Nick, I’d advise against pursuing the lottery idea. A huge number of people will think either (a) it’s an irredeemably naff, stupid, gimmicky idea; or (b) it “cheapens” the democratic process.
Your point on compulsory voting that people may well punish the party imposing it has a ring of truth to me though.
A lot of the debate on turnout focusses on the symptom rather than the disease. Fewer people are voting (the symptom) because fewer people think politicians can or do make a difference (the disease). Tackling the former by compulsory voting or free lottery tickets/cakes/kisses from the prettiest girl in the village will do nothing about the latter.
12 - James, it is also the case that fewer people vote because they don’t think their vote can make a difference.
Start talking about repealing the Reform Acts if turnout gets too low- that’ll motivate people to vote! (or reduce Labour votes, a win-win)
12: yes, good points!
Latest council by-election results from PA
Forest of Dean District - Hartpury: C 288, Ind 262, Lab 22. (May 2003 - C unopposed). C hold.
Newport City - Graig: C 770, Lab 503, Green 69. (June 2004 - Two seats C 1030, 798, Lab 626, 577, Lib Dem 348). C hold. Swing 1.6% Lab to C.
7: Would be interested to hear a convincing justification for an 80 day holiday
As for the main topic, compulsory voting is daft, since there will be a huge number of people voting who previously didn’t care, and so are likely to tick any old box, thus rendering the results far less meaningful. It dilutes the votes of those who have thought about their vote and made an informed choice. If you can’t be bothered to walk 5 minutes to the polling station then your vote isn’t important enough to be counted.
Due to the differential turnout problem, Labour would naturally be much more attracted to such a solution than they would be to PR: if they could have got turnout in their safest seats up by about 20% of the register, it’s reasonable to assume that they would have got a better share than the pitiful 35.2% - and they could have held some marginals where the turnout in “Labour” wards was poorer (some analysis of this would be interesting). But such a reform would be hugely difficult to get through. It’d probably have to be done in stages, with council pilots followed by a introduction at local government level, with Holyrood, Cardiff and Westminster following. There’d also have to be pretty lenient punishments for the first couple of elections, at least, until the reform is embedded. I suspect that, in the end, such a reform won’t come about unless Labour backbeners demand it as “compensation” for PR in a Lab-LD pact.
O/T - this might explain some of Andrea’s posts … http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4746787.stm
14 - that would be fun. Imagine, for instance, if the voters in Weaver Vale suddenly found that the electoral register has suddenly become restricted to the “burgesses of the salt pits” in Northwich….
OTOH, the “forty-shilling freeeholder” qualification for the counties would hardly be onerous these days.
What would happen to people who refused to pay the fine for non-voting in protest against the breach of the civil and democratic liberty to abstain?
Would they be sent to jail?
Although I make my livig partly by analysing elections, although I am committed to voting, greatly enjoy the procedure, and (as anyone who remembers my exchange with Mark Senior on another thread would know)have always considered voting no waste (even) under the present electoral system, I would be greatly inclined to test the ultimate penalty myself. This is a cause I would go to prison for - you saw it here first!
21 - Nick, I’ve changed my mind. Can you just introduce it so we have a cause celebre? I will get the “Free the PB One” T-shirts printed.
What if the ‘None of the above’ box received most votes?
I guess that’s why the box would say ‘Abstain’
The strongest argument against compulsory voting seems to be the most compelling one for this Government to wish to introduce it. Under a compulsory voting system, there is no need for a Government to “win” votes - it merely has to prove itself “less bad” than its opponents.
I would argue that this was largely what the 2005 election demonstrated: huge dissatisfaction with both the PM and the Government (look at the approval ratings for them alone) but no real appetite for the Opposition parties.
The problem is that the “threshold” that the Government needs to overcome to guarantee continued power is therefore lower. All it needs to do to maintain office is sufficiently disparage and undermine the Opposition, something which is profoundly unhealthy to the body politic.
23. The “None of the Above” option has been used in Russia, and has “won” in a few districts. When this happens, the election is re-run with new candidates.
25 - ReOpen Nominations or RON as we used to have in student elections. Not that voting was compulsory in those, obviously.
I think compulsory voting is really the only way, this is due to the fact do we really think that having as low as 20% turnouts in some elections in the end good for this country. The Russian idea for the against all above option is brillant mostly due to the fact that Putin hates it and everything he doesn’t like I do.
Peter - turnout is 20% in some elections because voters do not feel that the outcome has any direct impact upon them. This is partly due to the sclerosis affecting local government; it is both too invasive and too toothless. If people felt that what they were voting for mattered then I’m sure they would turn out.
It raises a far deeper question about the malaise in local provision of services, governement’s tendency to centralise what should properly be the responsibilty of devloved administration or private initiative, and the failure to adresss this issue.
Polling research in Belgium, where they have compulsory voting, has shown that the Labour party is the main beneficiary of compulsory voting.
the only advantage I can see in compulsory voting is that it would be genuinely hilarious if ‘none of the above’ won.
Compulsory voting is to Labour what wishful boundary thinking is to the conservatives - a rather pathetic attempt to cover up our rather rubbish electoral system.
They really should have better things to do.
I believe that every person should vote - but do not believe that they must vote. Politicians have to convince people that they are worth voting for, that they will actually do something to help make life better. In many ways that is why Lib Dems tend to do so well, they work hard on the ground and convince people that they get things done - Im not saying that the reality is the same as the illusion. Far too many politicians never put out leflets between elections, hardly bother during elections, and so the public goes to sleep - especially local elections. If people didnt want to vote and faced a fine many would just not bother to register. The problem is with the politicians not the elctorate.
29 - I did not know the Labour party put up candidates for election in Belgium .
I can see the logic behind Labour proposing complusory voting . Turn out is lower in ” Labour ” wards where the majority of people who do not vote are the disadvantaged , the unemployed and the poorer section of society . The sort of people who were the natural supporters of the Labour Party . The flaw in this logic is that these people no longer see Nulab as their natural party with their interests at heart and with no other party so far able to convince them that they would represent their interests , they see no point in voting .
Compulsory voting may get these people out to vote but that in itself will not persuade them that Nulab have any interest in them apart from taking their vote for granted .
31 - I disagree (sort of) I think it’s unfair to blame the politicians completely. Politics is divisive and combative and a big turn off, but as Steve Richard pointed out at a seminar the other day, a large part of the problem is that the media has settled on the ‘they’re all bastards’ approach, and people just aren’t that interested anyhow.
I think too much is made of turnout, which is a shame, because too much time is spent on too many stupid quick fixes (like compulsory voting), when a much bigger problem than remote politicians is that for so many people, voting is a pointless waste of time, so they just don’t bother. But solving that only benefits the populace and the Lib Dems, so it tends to go overlooked.
17: “7: Would be interested to hear a convincing justification for an 80 day holiday”
I should be interested in hearing a convincing justification for repeating the canard that politicians are ON holiday
It is lazy and self-serving journalism on behalf of the Sun; it is an oft repeated whinge from people who (a) do not bother to go out and serve the public themselves and (b) do not bother to learn what politicians actually do [and sitting in the debating chamber in Westminster is the very least of it, really]; so what’s it doing on PB.com where one expects people to be better informed.
I may disagree with Nick Palmer politically, but I would never be so crass as to suggest he was not working very hard for his constituents now and for the next 80 days.
regards
Richard
34 - the argument is often put from those on the right that MPs should be away as much as possible (i) to stop them from meddling all the time, only passing laws when necessary and (ii) to experience life outside of Westminster to make them more rounded and in tune with the governed. Case work is not often mentioned.
O/T - the PM has just made a speech the implications of which seemed to be that he intends to revise the human rights act. I must admit, I only have the shakiest grasp in this area, but is this not what the Tories have been proposing and Labour ridiculing them for?
Their suggestion is outrageous.
It seems that even with unfair boundaries and a postal vote system designed to allow local Labour parties to commit mass fraud, Blair and co feel more cheating is needed to guarantee Labour remain in office.
Perhaps they could just count everyone who didn’t vote as having voted Labour. It’s only a little more crooked, and would at least save money on bribes and government ‘information’ campaigns.
The problem is that since the House of Lords has been crippled, they can do what they like and no-one can stop them.
As to the idea of compulsory registration, how could they automatically register people via council tax registration anyway? Only the person paying the bill registers, and if there is no bill, e.g. in a student household, no-one registers at all.
Where I live, the electoral role fell by more than almost anywhere else. The unregistered households are overwhelming student houses, bed sits and, in some areas, council flats. Turnout amongst those who are registered in those areas is very low. This is a section of the electorate that does not want to vote.
36. If the government will amend the human rights act, someone could still take his/her case to the European Court of Human Rights. What will happen in this case? Will the government ignore a ECHR’s ruling?
Compulsory voting Labour anyone? Maybe I should emigrate to real democracy like Iran… or Saudi Arabia.
Richard at 34: thanks! Yes, I’m still working, in between writing to you lot. According to a survey of MPs (who obviously may exaggerate) they work 70 hours/week when Parliament sits, and this is certainly what I’d claim (a bit more, in fact). During recess it drops to about 40. As much as the average Sun journalist, perhaps.
Just a minor point on registration: at the GE I met a number of constituents who thought that by registering for council tax they had also registered to vote, and were annoyed to hear that they were expected to fill out an extra form. So if the change is simply that if you do register for council tax then you are also registered for voting I think that would be welcome - one fewer form to fill in. But obviously they’d need to adjust the form so it included all residents. As for compulsory voting, I can’t see it happening, because it would be seen as partisan even if it wasn’t, unless the neutral Electoral Commission were to come out and push for it (unlikely). As others have said, low voting numbers are a symptom, not a cause.
By the way, one German poll now shows a left/right dead heat (another still shows the CDU/FDP slightly ahead), so the ‘overhang’ seats could be decisive, which gives the CDU a small edge (basically the Additional Members system only tops up the smaller parties up to a point, so a party which wins lots of constituency seats has an edge). Schroeder has a roughly 10% lead over Merkel when compared head-to-head, making the TV debate vital - if it conifrms the preference, it could produce a voting shift that ends the CDU/FDP lead; if it doesn’t, it could close the deal for the CDU.
Nick Palmer wrote:
It might happen, but I think that positive incentives to vote are probably more likely - a free national lottery ticket is the obvious one, which doesn’t cost anything (the prize doesn’t change) but shifts the chance of a win slightly towards those who bother to vote. But there are snags with every option - for instance, some object to the Lottery on principle.
Reply:
This is the most shocking and disgraceful thing I have ever read on this site, to suggest bribing voters with lottery tickets in a way that will blatently boost the Labour vote.
After fiddling with the electoral system to make it comparable to a “banana republic,” I doubt the Blairites will stop at anything to cling on to power, even if they turn Britain into a dictatorship.
I am ashamed of this perversion of our democracy and those that encourage it.
It is the spin and the lies of politicians that has turned people off politics. If the main political parties spent as much time engaging with the people and their problems and telling the truth as they do obsessing about power, maybe more people would bother to vote.
I can tell you, if I had a New Labour MP in my constituency, I would personally smack him very hard, because they are making life miserable for my neighbourhood with all their namby pamby, softy lofty, lilly-livered liberal laws, that have lost control of the streets with their closed down police stations and soft drugs laws and now we have to have their 24 drinking laws disturbing us all night long.
The answer for the Blairites is to always make new laws from high above ignoring expert or local opinions, fiddle with this system and that, while all around them things are getting worse with every move they make.
41 - “softy lofty”?
42 book value . ” softy lofty” - It’s a warehouse apartment with subdued lighting .
43 - Thanks Jack W. I see you are down with the kids’ argot.
As it’s Friday afternoon, we should show some of our charitable spirit, and coin some new pejorative phrases Printz can use in future about the licensing laws… how about “lenient lenny”, “permissive steve” and “anarchist annie”?
23 - I’m as opposed to an abstain or re-open nominations box on a ballot paper as I am to the idea of compulsory voting. If folks don’t like any of the candidates enough, they should stand for election themselves. Abstention is simply, to misquote Baldwin, apathy without responsibility.
35 - Tabman, it’s the argument of many liberals too
41 - It is the spin and the lies of politicians that has turned people off politics.
It really ain’t that simple. Do you also write for The Sun?
43 - indeed, I have a good example of the phenomenon: http://uk.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1405/Mptv/1405/6002_0080.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Bloom,%20Verna
44 - I can be quite strict on occasion
45 - and a jolly good one it is too!
41,
If thats the most shocking thing you have read on this site, I think you need a holiday.
45 “It really ain’t that simple. Do you also write for The Sun?”
I can only assume you are a politician. Either Labour or Lib Dem.
Separated at birth:
Angus Deayton
Alan Simpson MP
48 - [hint - click on the link ... ]
“Do you also write for The Sun?”
“I can only assume you are a politician. Either Labour or Lib Dem.”
Whoa! The big insults are coming out now! Deep breaths.
“Do you also write for The Sun?”
Printz’s co-authored Sun front page:
http://images.thesun.co.uk/picture/0,,2005350906,00.jpg
Printz I’m beginning to suspect you’re a “character”, a sort of devil’s advocate figure. “Softy-lofty” is the giveaway. What’s worse is that I’ve often agreed with you!
52 - I think the font must have been too big to get “condoms and the Pill handed out like Dolly Mixtures” in there.
52. Strange that they put “racist murders on our doorsteps” on the headline considering that they almost instigate dislike against some groups like the gypsy.
54 - and no mention of drugs either!
It really irritates me when people claim that all politicians are spinning liars. I am not a politician myself but every politician that I have met (including the ones from parties I do not support) have been decent people trying to do the best for the people they represent. It is such a glib thing to say that my blood boils every time I read or hear it. Sure, there may be one or two who are out for themselves but under the media microscope I doubt they would last very long if they ever did anything actually immoral or wrong. If all you care about is making money for yourself it strikes me that you would be far more sensible to turn to business or crime!
During the last election there were several pieces in the papers and on TV about “voter apathy”. A lot of the idiots they interviewed had me wanting to throw things at the TV. Several times they interviewed people who slagged-off the government and then said that they could not be bothered to vote!
I for one would support compulsory voting. I think it is far from proven that this would necessarily help Labour. And even if it did in the short term I’d like to see the evidence that public opinion is so set in stone that it would help them in the long term. And as for the argument that people would just tick random boxes if they were forced, I think that is quite insulting to the electorate as when you know that a political party may cost you money/healthcare/etc it would take a brave man to ignore that fact. I think the reverse is true and it would actually focus more people on the task in hand - i.e. who will govern them for the next five years. It may (stranger thing have happened) increase the frankly appalling levels of political education in this country. That’s worth a £10 fine for.
Yes, these attitudes are all the more remarkable (and reprehansible) given that one of the really great things about this country is the unimpeachable integrity of almost everyone who occupies a public office, from the lowliest inland revenue official to the cabinet itself.
58. Very funny. Yes obviously not everyone is 100% decent but neither are the vast majority of them on the make either. That’s my point.
57/58/ John D & B. Mmmmnnn !!
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jby0307l.jpg
60. Which I believe proves my point. When politicians do do something illegal there are hordes of journalists out to expose them so they invariably get caught (eventually, I grant you). I’m glad I don’t have to live under that sort of scrutiny!
60. A predictable response, - I did say ‘almost’ - the great cause celebre of the corrupt politician of the last ten years was Neil Hamilton - and quite rightly, he got his comeuppance, but really what small beer in comparison to most other countries!
John B - Sorry for my earlier comment, I thought you were being ironic!
I was not!! But, it says an awful lot about the current malaise that it’s possible to assume I was being so.
I notice on the BBCs report of Blair “Tough New Measures” it says
“Among the planned changes, Mr Blair said people would be refused asylum if they had been involved in terrorism.”
This wasn’t policy before? What kind of morons have been running the country? Or is this another case of NuLab announcing old policies as “new”?
Tony is overdoing it with the fake tan: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/08/05/international/tonyblair_ready.jpg
He looks like he needs a liver transplant.
66 - much in the way that Tycoons like to transform a struggling business, having “done” Labour he’s accepted a bigger challenge at Vanitas …
66. Close up of Tony’s face:
http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2005/08_Agosto/05/TONY1-b.jpg
Thanks for that Andrea, poor Cherie.
Jon,65,
Don`t think even if you had a conservative government running the country, The Law lords would let the proposal through.
It will still take years to refuse asylum for people involved in terrorism, if they come from a country which does not protect certain rights,
Seem to remember Howard as Home Secretary had same problems.
I do not think its the time to be partisan with this problem, I realy do hope people with good will, will try to work out a concencus to keep these fanatics out.
Unlike before the Election when many on the hard left,and others, said the Police,Government, were just scare mongering for political ends.
There are two main reasons people do not vote.
1. They are insufficiently engaged in the political process at an emotional level. This may be because they think everything is basically OK; or because they dislike all of the available options; or because they don’t think it will make any difference to the outcome; or because they are too lazy, selfish or apathetic to care. The size of this group tends to fluctuate - according to the perceived closeness of the race, and the clarity of the choice between the parties.
2. The other reason is intellectual. It’s not very PC to mention it, but a significant proportion of the population is simply not very bright (something like 15% of people have an IQ below 85). Such people are disproportionately less likely to take an interest in political debate for reasons too obvious to rehearse. Survey evidence shows a fairly strong correlation between educational attainment and political participation (educational attainment is in turn strongly correlated with IQ).
Forcing people who are indifferent or baffled to make political choices has more to do with legitimating election results than anything else, in my view. Leave well alone - give everyone a vote, but let them decide whether to use it.
Melv wrote:
Printz I’m beginning to suspect you’re a “character”, a sort of devil’s advocate figure. “Softy-lofty” is the giveaway. What’s worse is that I’ve often agreed with you!
Reply:
I didn’t think “softy lofty” was so significant. However, I am pleased you say you have often agreed with me. I’m not a devil’s advocate character as I take a clear view on most things. However, rarely does one get the chance to let an MP know what you really think about their policies and with Mr Palmer and who knows who else reading this, here is a chance, so no need to beat about the Bush, although I’d like to beat Bush about!
71. So people are too stupid to vote? I don’t buy it. Turnout has been much higher in the past and education was a lot less widespread then.
71 - 2. The other reason is intellectual. It’s not very PC to mention it, but a significant proportion of the population is simply not very bright
Perhaps this lot can help?
70. Dez
“Don`t think even if you had a conservative government running the country, The Law lords would let the proposal through.
It will still take years to refuse asylum for people involved in terrorism, if they come from a country which does not protect certain rights”
Thats what I mean - Morons running the country, whichever party. More concerned that terrorists are not mistreated by Saudi authorities than about protecting the people of this country. It cannot possibly be acceptable that a known terrorist can gain asylum here, they should be sent back to whatever justice they face in the country where they committed the crime.
67.”
- much in the way that Tycoons like to transform a struggling business, having “done” Labour he’s accepted a bigger challenge at Vanitas … ”
talking about transformation, what happened to Ben Bradshaw:
Bradshaw in 2003
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=2192560&cdi=0
Bradshaw in 2004:
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=3129519&cdi=0
An haircut could make miracles!
Printz,
I hardly ever agree with you, but respect your views.
However do believe you play the devils advocate, its all too black and white for me, no shades of grey.
Bush and Blair all bad,is an easy rant.
Jon,
I agree with you, just stating its more than just political, needs fundemental change.
75 Jon Gale . The difficulty is , do we take it that if the governments of Saudi Arabia , Iran , Egypt , China , Zimbabwe etc say people are terrorists we take their information at face value . This issue is more complex I’m afraid . For all their faults , I prefer the judiciary to take the decision and not Charles Clarke .
48 - Printz, my identity is no secret - I’m an out ‘n’ proud Lib Dem cllr. I just think it would be nice if you extended your writing range beyond the “they’re all lying bastards” cliche. It’s just lazy thinking.
Cynicism towards politicians has long been with us (like rising crime and teenage delinquency). Eg, in August 1944, after five years of World War Two, 35% of people told Gallup they thought politicians were only out for themselves. In 1984, Mori found that 18% of people said they trusted politicians to tell the truth, compared to 22% in 2004.
I don’t take opinion polling as gospel; there are simply too many variables over such a time range. But I think the reasons for declining turn-out is a lot more complex than you’re suggesting.
73 - I’m not sure it’s a question of people being too stupid to vote. But I suspect people now think (albeit often in an ambient way) more about what voting actually means than once was the case.
I still meet people when canvassing whose only reason for voting Lab or Tory (or even sometimes LibDem) is that their parents did. But it happens a lot less now than it used to.
What is more common is meeting intelligent people who don’t feel they understand enough about the differences between the parties/candidates to feel able to make an informed choice. So they don’t vote at all. (Same way I never use the ballot papers I occasionally get sent by the Coventry Building Society; and why I never voted in student elections.)
High turn-outs in the 1940-60s were doubtless the result of appreciating more a democracy which had been so recently threatened; a mass franchise which was in itself still a relatively modern phenomenon; more clearly perceived differences of political and economic philosophy between two mass-member parties.
The dealignment of poltics, and the unravelling of conventional class-based notions of society, has made choosing which political party to vote for (let alone join) is a far more nuanced, shades-of-grey choice than once it was.
Re 3: Just to correct a small mistake. There is no compulsory voting; it was abolished in the 1960’s. On the other hand, Belgium still has it.
Re 3: Just to correct a small mistake. There is no compulsory voting; it was abolished in the 1960’s. On the other hand, Belgium still has it.
80: Lib Dems have been encouraged to “fight dirty” on their own official website. The Lib Dems mastered dirty local politics before Blair even got to power, so get your own house in order before blaming the ordinary voter like me for being cynical and not trusting politicians. We now have a government that has lied on every major policy area including a war, so what do you expect the voters to think?
83 - how can I possibly gain-say such sweet reason? I’m so glad you took my post at 80 to heart.
I think that I am going to abstain in future elections. Quite frankly, why should I bother? What is the point of voting? My vote has never mattered one way or another. I have voted in every election - local, Westminster, European - since 1973, but I have never, ever, voted for a “winning” candidate. I have lived in several constituencies, for more than one political party, and I can see that the process is pointless.
Furthermore, the political “debate” is so fatuous these days, that it is a turn-off in its own right. Fortunately, I am suitably middle class that I can pull up my mental drawbridge and remove myself from the fray. It simply does not affect me or my wellbeing, except for a marginal effect on taxation.
Why should I bother?
85 Augustus . In May for the first time I didn’t vote . I deliberately spoiled my ballot . Even when we are pis*ed off with the politicians we should make a statement as I believe we owe it to those whose stroved and died to establish and maintain our democracy and the universal franchise we enjoy today .
Yes, Jack, I can see the pleasure to be had by “abstaining in person” but suppose (slight chance!) that there was something mildly interesting on the telly on the next first Thursday in May?
Actually, Jack, I’ve just had second thoughts! There is no pleasure to be had by spoiling one’s ballot paper. Going all the way ro the Polling Station to do that is a bit like crossing the road to kick a beggar. No-one benefits, and the pleasure is overwhelmed by the shame.
87/88 , Augustus . I did the deed through the Royal Mail !!
Out of curiosity, did you have to provide a stamp? Or did you get a pre-paid envelope? I am certainly not going to waste a postage stamp on such a discredited third rate system!
On compulsory voting, I am unconvinced by some of the arguments against on this thread:
1. Heinrich Mertz - “Rubbish! Such a law would violate basic human rights and one of the
basic rights is the right to vote and the right not to vote”
21. Robert Waller - “What would happen to people who refused to pay the fine for non-voting
in protest against the breach of the civil and democratic liberty to abstain?”
I don’t think that compulsory voting is violating basic human rights in Australia, or
curtailing democratic and civil liberties in Belgium. Call me old-fashioned, but I think
that the right to vote implies a civic duty to vote, and it is reasonable for a
democratically elected government to make this duty a legal requirement. The right to
abstain is not curtailed, you are simply required to abstain in person (or by post).
Of course there are some who will always put individual liberty above civic duty, such as
those who refuse to fill in a census form or go out of their way to avoid jury service, but
I am surprised to hear this sort of argument from a Christian Democrat and from the author
of the indispensible Almanac.
11. cookie - “I don’t want the votes of people who don’t care either way enough to vote
voluntarily;”
71. Richard - “It’s not very PC to mention it, but a significant proportion of the
population is simply not very bright (something like 15% of people have an IQ below 85).
Such people are disproportionately less likely to take an interest in political debate for
reasons too obvious to rehearse…”
Democracy is the rule of the people, all the people, not just the partisan, the engaged or
the intelligentsia.
A mandate based on 20% of the electorate is open to questions of legitimacy. Compulsory
voting would make candidates consider the views of all their potential constituents, not
just those they think will turn out.
Leaving aside the dubious proposition that IQ tests are an objective assessment of innate
intelligence (why are psychologists the occupational group that scores highest?), writing
off 15% of the electorate because you think they are too stupid to vote is, IMO, a very
dangerous route to go down.
13. Tabman - “it is also the case that fewer people vote because they don’t think
their vote can make a difference.”
There are two aspects to this - the electoral system and the perceived lack of differences
between the major parties. Some causes of the latter are beyond the scope of national
legislation (globalisation, the growth in power and influence of multi-national corporations
and the super-rich, the current vogue for the loopy ideas of Adam Smith), but the former
would need to be addressed in conjunction with a move to compulsory voting. Voters in
many safe constituencies would have good reason to rebel against compulsory voting, as their votes are purely expressive and can have no influence on the national result under FPTP.
Personally, I am in favour of PR-STV as it gives the most choice to voters, retains a constituency link for all MPs (albeit in much larger constituencies), delivers broad
proportionality and ensures that most of the votes cast count towards the result. Given that there is no chance of this under the present government, a step-wise change to the Alternative Vote or Supplementary Vote may be more feasible.
The last para of the Guardian article on improving voter registration caught my attention (my emphasis):
Ms Harman also believes the disproportionate lack of registration in inner city areas may lead to unnecessary parliamentary boundary reviews in which the number of inner city seats are reduced in favour of more rural seats.
I get the impression that electoral registration officers follow their own agendas, or those of their local political masters. Some appear keen to clear dead names from the register, while others go out of their way to identify unregistered households. If central government were to devise some standard objectives, procedures and ‘targets’ in this area we might see large discrepancies between the current ’standard’ electorate sizes, and the 2000 numbers used for the current boundary review. Ms Harman and friends may then deem the current boundary review ‘unnecessary’.
90 Augustus . Prepaid envelope.
91. sorry about the line breaks, hope this is more readable:
On compulsory voting, I am unconvinced by some of the arguments against on this thread:
1. Heinrich Mertz - “Rubbish! Such a law would violate basic human rights and one of the basic rights is the right to vote and the right not to vote”
21. Robert Waller - “What would happen to people who refused to pay the fine for non-voting in protest against the breach of the civil and democratic liberty to abstain?”
I don’t think that compulsory voting is violating basic human rights in Australia, or curtailing democratic and civil liberties in Belgium. Call me old-fashioned, but I think that the right to vote implies a civic duty to vote, and it is reasonable for a democratically elected government to make this duty a legal requirement. The right to abstain is not curtailed, you are simply required to abstain in person (or by post).
Of course there are some who will always put individual liberty above civic duty, such as those who refuse to fill in a census form or go out of their way to avoid jury service, but I am surprised to hear this sort of argument from a Christian Democrat and from the author of the indispensible Almanac.
11. cookie - “I don’t want the votes of people who don’t care either way enough to vote voluntarily;”
71. Richard - “It’s not very PC to mention it, but a significant proportion of the population is simply not very bright (something like 15% of people have an IQ below 85). Such people are disproportionately less likely to take an interest in political debate for reasons too obvious to rehearse…”
Democracy is the rule of the people, all the people, not just the partisan, the engaged or the intelligentsia.
A mandate based on 20% of the electorate is open to questions of legitimacy. Compulsory voting would make candidates consider the views of all their potential constituents, not just those they think will turn out.
Leaving aside the dubious proposition that IQ tests are an objective assessment of innate intelligence (why are psychologists the occupational group that scores highest?), writing off 15% of the electorate because you think they are too stupid to vote is, IMO, a very dangerous route to go down.
13. Tabman - “it is also the case that fewer people vote because they don’t think their vote can make a difference.”
There are two aspects to this - the electoral system and the perceived lack of differences between the major parties. Some causes of the latter are beyond the scope of national legislation (globalisation, the growth in power and influence of multi-national corporations and the super-rich, the current vogue for the loopy ideas of Adam Smith), but the former would need to be addressed in conjunction with a move to compulsory voting. Voters in many safe constituencies would have good reason to rebel against compulsory voting, as their votes are purely expressive and can have no influence on the national result under FPTP.
Personally, I am in favour of PR-STV as it gives the most choice to voters, retains a constituency link for all MPs (albeit in much larger constituencies), delivers broad proportionality and ensures that most of the votes cast count towards the result. Given that there is no chance of this under the present government, a step-wise change to the Alternative Vote or Supplementary Vote may be more feasible.
The last para of the Guardian article on improving voter registration caught my attention (my emphasis):
Ms Harman also believes the disproportionate lack of registration in inner city areas may lead to unnecessary parliamentary boundary reviews in which the number of inner city seats are reduced in favour of more rural seats.
I get the impression that electoral registration officers follow their own agendas, or those of their local political masters. Some appear keen to clear dead names from the register, while others go out of their way to identify unregistered households. If central government were to devise some standard objectives, procedures and ‘targets’ in this area we might see large discrepancies between the current ’standard’ electorate sizes, and the 2000 numbers used for the current boundary review. Ms Harman and friends may then deem the current boundary review ‘unnecessary’.
Before any decision is made about compulsory voting (which I oppose) I think a close look should be taken at the accuracy of the existing voting rolls. I always used to assume that the register was renewed every year but I remember some posts on here during the GE saying it took 5 years of non-registration before somebody is removed from the register. Is this true? If not how does it work?
How many people on the register are dead or have moved away and are registered elsewhere? People are a lot more mobile today and this must have an affect on the maximum possible voter turnout compared to elections in years gone by. This could be another of the side effects of Mrs Thatcher’s property owning democracy compared to the many people who used to live out their lives in the same council house/flat.
What do those who have been canvassers for many years think? Do you find a lot of ‘gone away’ voters from election to elections and is this more noticable than a few years ago?
re 40. Nick we all know what TB thinks of the “neutral” electoral committee - basically if it harms the NuLab course (think compulsory postal voting) then the answer is bug**er all
93. “Democracy is the rule of the people, all the people, not just the partisan, the engaged or the intelligentsia. A mandate based on 20% of the electorate is open to questions of legitimacy. Compulsory voting would make candidates consider the views of all their potential constituents, not just those they think will turn out.”
Compulsory voting creates a false impression of a mandate. It behoves a government elected by the freely-given votes of only 20% of the electorate to behave with an appropriate degree of humility.
41: I see that Printz has come clean that he is not, as he pretended during the election, a constituent of mine. How sad for both of us.
Lurker Terry at 94: Electoral registration was tightened this year, in Broxtowe and I believe nationally - the rule used here was that if you miss two opportunities to confirm your continued residence you’re off the register (used to be five). There was a steady trickle of people who found to their annoyance that they’d been left off, and although it wasn’t enough to make much difference here, some research shows the figure is much higher in low-income, predominantly Labour areas.
There’s always been a problem in turnover - the electorate varies by 25% every four years in my patch, and much more in student areas. I don’t think this aspect has got noticeably worse.
Part of the ‘problem’ is that it’s been a while since we had an election that was perceived to be very close - 13 years, in fact. I don’t think there’s any doubt that this depresses turnout, but that doesn’t reflect anything worse than people feeling too busy to bother with a foregone conclusion. The perception that the parties differ less has lowered turnout too, as it makes ‘vote to stop the fiends destroying us all’ appeals less plausible. At some point we’ll have a closely-contested election hinging on a major policy dispute, and I suspect we’ll see turnout back near 70% then.
Jon Gale at 65: The problem is this: under the postwar treaties on asylum (adopted when it was discovered that numerous victims of Nazism had been sent back to their death), all the major governments agreed that they would never send refugees back if they faced torture or execution. For countries like Algeria, where both Government forces and underground resistance have been implicated in serious atrocities, you can easily get a refugee who has far from clean hands himself, but it is still true that they can’t legally be sent back to be tortured etc. Tony Blair is trying to square the circle by agreements with other governments that they will treat the specified people correctly (on pain of diplomatic sanctions etc if they don’t). This has been done by various countries before in a handful of cases (e.g. Denmark sent two people to Algeria), but the recipient government is generally not keen to take the terrorist at all, let alone if they have to treat them well.
It’s one of those problems where all parties have agreed that there isn’t an obviously right answer (unless you take the view that torturing people is OK if they are thought, possibly mistakenly, that they’re terrorists), and it’s tiresome of you to suggest that it shows the government are morons. However, recent events have tilted the balance of view for most people against toleration of extremists even if they are in some danger if sent home. The tricky bit is how to draw the line asnd what safeguards are needed, and I expect some very close analysis of this when the proposal comes up in Parliament.
97 - Hi Nick , the problem in the low income natural Labour voting areas is as you say that there is a perception that the parties differ less in policy than they used to . In fact Nulab have been so successful in appealing to the middle ground and centre right that many people in these areas feel
One of the lesser-known, not to say less important, reasons for enthusiasts to support ID cards is that they make voter registration easier and voting fraud more difficult. They would also, of course, make it easier to find out who hadn’t voted.
97 - Hi Nick , the problem in the low income natural Labour voting areas is as you say that there is a perception that the parties differ less in policy than they used to . In fact Nulab have been so successful in appealing to the middle ground and centre right that many people in these areas feel that Nulab , with some justification , no longer has any interest in their lives and problems and can take their votes for granted .
Hence the rise in votes for BNP , to some extent the Lib Dems and the greater rise in not voting at all in these areas .
Nick Palmer wrote:
The problem is this: under the postwar treaties on asylum (adopted when it was discovered that numerous victims of Nazism had been sent back to their death), all the major governments agreed that they would never send refugees back if they faced torture or execution. For countries like Algeria, where both Government forces and underground resistance have been implicated in serious atrocities, you can easily get a refugee who has far from clean hands himself, but it is still true that they can’t legally be sent back to be tortured etc.
Reply:
Does that include Haroon Rashid Aswat, suspect mastermind and possible bomb maker behind the London Bombings that the USA desparately wanted to arrest but the UK protected him?
This is a man who has been working for our own security services for years and is closely linked to Abu “hook” Hamza, who the government left alone for years while he preached hatred and incited terror.
Yes, I repeat he worked for our own security services, the man believed to be behind the London Bombings.
I tell you what it looks like to me: that our own security services fund and protect what we might call “Al-Qaeda” cells. As far as I can see, the London bombing could well be an inside job.
I do not believe the bombers on 7/7 were suicide bombers and there is far more evidence in the public domain not to believe than to believe. In fact I see no evidence that couldn’t have been planted that they were.
Even NYPD admitted the bombs were set off by mobile phone. Odd how the British didn’t want us to know that.
Anyone thinking this is a crazy conspiracy theory answer me this:
Since when have suicide bombers strapped bombs to their backs and got somebody else to detonate them by mobile phone?
Since when have suicide bombers been MI6 informants?
And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Go figure.
Mark [101] - one difficulty with relating the fall in turn-out to what the parties have to offer various segments of the electorate is that turn-out has also fallen in Northern Ireland, where the parties are all completely different!
“Since when have suicide bombers strapped bombs to their backs and got somebody else to detonate them by mobile phone?”
According to the information that leaked through the NYPD, “someone else” didn’t detonate them. The alarm on the mobile phone was used, much like any other device with a timer could have been.
104 Printz . An extened trip to your dark room is recommended !
104 book value . Sorry , that’s 102 , mind you perhaps Printz might like the company !
106 - a kind offer but I shall remain in broad daylight, thanks Jack.
107 book value . The sunlit uplands of Liberal Democracy ?? Mind you after the first few overs at the Test match this morning I could have gone to Printz’s Dark Room !!
104:
Since when have suicide bombers used timers to set off their bombs?
You use a timer if you leave a bomb somewhere. There’s no point if you are going to blow yourself up and everything around you anyway. I believe these men were set up.
The police told the Sunday Telegraph before the 21/7 attacks “We do not have hard evidence the men were suicide bombers.”
Nick Palmer MP said of Prinz, ‘and it’s tiresome of you to suggest that it shows the government are morons. However, recent events have tilted the balance of view for most people against toleration of extremists even if they are in some danger if sent home’.
,b>‘Tilted the balance of view’? A nice phrase but disingenuous.
Why can NuLab never admit a mistake? The Human Rights Act was a badly drafted, badly thought out bit of party ideology put into law and it has left us vulnerable. Why can’t you say, “Sorry, got it a bit wrong, and will put it right”?
But you can’t say that because some things are still fresh in the memory: NuLab abuse of those opposing the February Terrorism act, the ridiculing of Tory proposals to review the HRA made during the election and the implications of racism when we proposed better border control and asylum rules.
If you had listened to these concerns before the issue went critical it may have been better for all of us.
Mind you, I am betting that in September there is a government proposal to amend the convention on refugees too, another adoption of the Tory line.
Trouble is that while pleased you have seen the light I fear that, as so often, NuLab are just spinning a line and matters will as usual slide with another mass of unenforceable, badly targeted legislation.
110 Printz. I am referring to this article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4744211.stm
and I quote:
“The bombs were transported to the outskirts of London in drink coolers stashed in the boot of two cars and detonated by mobile phones that had alarms set to 0850 BST, the officials added.”
This was the source you claimed to be working on from in your post 103 (”Even NYPD admitted the bombs were set off by mobile phone.”) So the NYPD did not admit that they were set off remotely by someone else over a mobile phone, as you imply.
Mobile signals do not penetrate as deep as the Piccadilly line, by the way.
blue2win at 111: I wasn’t commenting on anything by Printz - I don’t usually bother to read his posts as they always seem designed to generate more heat than light. Your posts are more interesting, but this particular one seems to be simultaneously saying that the Government has been not tough enough and too tough (since you are by implication defending the Conservative opposition to the February Terrorism Act). Nobody usually emerges completely unscathed from hindsight…
Thank you book value for that quote. I stand corrected on that point.
Now that doesn’t take away from what I am saying, that the suspect mastermind was an agent for our security services as widely reported everywhere from Fox News even to Wikopedia.com, and that Aswat was protected by the government it seems, mobile phones were used to detonate suicide bombs and there is no hard evidence available that these men were suicide bombers as reported. There are also many other suspicious factors.
Therefore, one must consider these men were set up, either to:
A/think the bombs were going to go off at a later point
B/that they weren’t aware they were carrying bombs
C/That they weren’t actually carrying bombs but made to look like they were
You then have to consider who was the initiator of the bombings if Aswat was involved. It could be:
1/a self-initiated operation inspired by Al-Qaeda
2/an operation on instruction from Al-Qaeda high command
3/an operation on instruction from rogue elements within the security services or even within government
114 Printz . How many Printz’s does it take to screw in a light bulb ….. Four …. Printz stays in the dark and the other three are the conspirators .
http://www.dikenga.com/films/firecracker/photographs/generalimages/scb-darkness-2.jpg
Nick Palmer MP I am afraid I was not clear. The Terrorism Act of 2005 was brought in haste to deal with a situation brought about by your own government’s actions. The legislation was essential, or so we were told by the PM, Home Secretary and the Commissioner of the Met and his immediate predecessor, to control the threat from ‘hundreds’ of terrorists lurking in Britain. So serious was this threat that habeas corpus needed to be suspended at the whim of the Home Secretary and no judicial review would be involved. The strong resistence from the opposition parties moderated this flawed legislation but did not change its threat to civil liberties and our system of justice.
Since this “essential” act was passed not even all the Belmarsh prisoners have suffered from its draconian powers, and unless I am mistaken, no other terrorist has been dealt with by its provisions. But the house arrest powers and the suspension of habeas corpus remain on the statute book, and like the provision for security cordons which were not meant (or not said to be for) the protection of parliament but have been used as such, these detention provisions might also be similarly misused.
Indeed your government did not do enough. Sensible changes that apply in the rest of Europe, for the use of phone tap evidence, or a more rigid interpretation of the source of the threat to asylum seekers for example, were not implemented. Proposals to amend the Human Rights Act were attacked by your government. Yet now most of these changes are to be ‘considered’.
So yes, you have done too much and too little. Too much that damages our civil liberties for too little extra security and too little in terms of legislation for changes that would have increased the likelihood of conviction in court of terrorist suspects that would also have reinforced our rule of law. Too little to respond to criticism of your lax immigration policies and too little in dealing with the intelligence that is presented to you. Too little listening to real concern from reasonable people and too much automatic slagging off of any one who dares to oppose you or the politically correct line.
Once the people of this country have had time to reflect on these matters, I think they will find this government and its supporters wanting. The refusal to have an enquiry as there was in the USA and Spain in order to present an honest and open report to the nation, will be seen for what it is. A fear of the truth.
The news says Robin Cook is very ill. Not sure if ill or injured.
116 Last Paragraph . Blue2win . You wish !
117 AT . BBC report on Robin Cook says he has been taken “seriously ill” whilst hill walking in north west Scotland . Unconfirmed reports say he has been airlifted to hospital .
119 . Sorry link for Robin Cook story is :
http://www.news.bbc.co.uk
118 Today a Mosque complains they pointed the police in the direction of one attempted boming suspect, saying he was dangerous, months ago.
121 Blue2win . And ………
I have this worrying feeling that your wandering along a dimly lit corridor towards Printz’s domain .
Robin Cook has died.
An untimely age - very sad news.
I’m gutted. Like Rik I would never praise someone just because they had died but Robin Cook was an excellent bloke - he stuck to his principles but never indulged in the sort of attention seeking stuff that Short etc found necessary on Iraq.
126 - I agree. In a way, Robin Cook seemed like a great Victorian statesman out of his time - a brilliant, principled parliamentarian of the sort that modern media-focused politics too often casts aside. The question will always be with us of what he would have gone on to achieve.
A principled man and one of the finest orators of his time. His speeches on Iraq, first with the arms scandal and later his resignation speech are superb testiments to his talents. This is sad news for the British Political Scene as he was one of the political giants.
126 - Very sad news. One of the biggest figures in modern Scottish politics. Was just reading a book about John Smith when I heard the news. It seems particularly tragic that he should join John Smith and Donald Dewar in passing away long before their time. And whatever you think of his politics his principle was admirable.
Robin Cook RIP . Aye Great Scotsman Go In Grace .
Robin Cook was a great parliamentary figure and will be much missed. Will he be the best PM Labour never had or the best cabinet minister that Brown never had? I remember Cook’s demolishion of the Tory govt. over Scott. What a talent.
Interesting fact there were only six Parliamentary byelections in the 2001 - 2005 Parliament and none in Scotland. Robin Cooks sad death will mean the first Parliamentary byelection since the Falkirk West byelection of December 2000. Expect a reasonable showing from the SNP.
Since the 1970 General Election there has been 22 Parliamentary byelections north of the border. The SNP share of the vote rose in 19 out of the 22 contests, on average by 12.6%.
99-’It’s true that they can’t legally be sent back to be tortured etc’.
I think that you should rephrase this that they can’t be sent back full point!
It is obviously embarassing for you & I notice that you never raise the case of Rachid Ramda an Alegerian that has been held in the UK for over 8 years for alleged terrosit bombing offences & has successfully avoided extradition for all that time of course all paid for by the UK taxpayer.
And which is the barbaric country that is seeking his extradition & what is the alleged crime???
Its FRANCE (which does’nt have the death penalty nor is renowned for torture) & the alleged crime is that he was one of the BOMBERS that killed 8 people in the Paris metro in 1995.
Its seems that your main concern is for the human rights of the preachers of poison & terrorists.
123-130 indeed, I will miss Robin Cook greatly.
It only ever seems to happen to the good guys.
I see that i was wrong to Post about Cook’s death on the above thread.
A real talent in the Labour Party, sadly missed.
I’m sure that the Livingston LibDem are even now selecting their candidate… GD vulchers!
Still Livingston saw Cook hold on to more than 50% of the vote, but the SNP are second with around 20% of the vote followed by the LibDems with 15%… predominantly a working class Scottish constituency with large new town developments. Never been properly “safe” and indeed the rise in Cook’s majority was largely thanks to a slight increase in the LibDem vote at the expense of the SNP.
LibDem hopes in the seat likely to be complicated by the SNP’s position in second place… Labour “should” be able to hold it though… but we’ll have to see, turnout was nearly 60% at the general election in May, and on a low turnout from what I can gleam about the seat there could be the potential for an upset… also did Cook have a personal vote?
Re.131 by-elections in Scotland. What was George Robertson’s seat - didn’t Labour hold that over the SNP by a whisker?
136 - It was Hamilton South. Famous for Winnie Ewing winning the seat in 1967 for the SNP. I think George Robertson also won the seat at a by-election in 1978.
136 - “I think George Robertson also won the seat at a by-election in 1978.”
It was plain Hamilton then, but yes.
http://www.geocities.com/by_elections/78.html#hamilton
i have no idea which idiot in the Labour party came up with compulsory voting for two important reason, firstly is tony blair arrogent enough to belive that the non voters of this country really aren’t voting because there so confident their beloved labour party will win regardless, no you big-headed idiot they don’t because politics doesn’s even try and appeal to anyone other than the key swing voters. forcing these dissolutioned members of the electorate to vote will encourage them to vote for other parties who apply this radical new idea of trying to actually appeal and listen to what people want and will only lead to and increase in support and respentation for smaller parties such as the lib dems, greens, ukip and the bnp or prehaps this is labours master plan. And of course the second reason for this not exactly being a great idea is, my favotire peice of legislation in the world EVER!!! the human rights act , call me silly but couldn’t not voting be inturpted as a form of expression, and well i may be wrong but doesn’t this wonderly well legislated act provide some kind of freedom of expression or is this act only even reconised when it either it suits Labour, or thoes nights Tony has a headache so Cherie decide to bring a case aginst him.
138-It seems the main promoter of compulsory voting to date has been Hoon,maybe acting as a stoolie for Blair as if there is enough negative reaction then Blair can distance himself from it or maybe trying to keep in the limelight & hoping we will forget about Dr Kelly.
However,I think you are being a little OTT with your comments regarding the Human Rights Act as this has provided a very lucrative income for Mrs Blair hence her warning to TB in her recent speach in Malaysia & it is noticeable that she has been the only oppostion to date against the new terrorist measures.
122 Jack W I think the last paragraph of my post applies to your post ar 122 Too little listening to real concern from reasonable people and too much automatic slagging off of any one who dares to oppose you or the politically correct line.
I was shocked and saddened to hear of Robin Cook’s death. Much has been said of his opposition to the Iraq War and rightly so. The two aspects of political life in which I think Cook played a major role were first his demolition of the Tories in the immediate aftermath of the publication of the Scott Report in 1996. With very little time to prepare and a 12,000 word dossier to go through - as I recall, both Cook (and I believe Alan Beith from the LDs) saw the report at noon and had to repond in Parliament at 3pm the same day - Cook produced a virtuoso report leaving Major and Howard in tatters.
The second area for which Cook deserves huge credit was his involvement in the Scottish Constitutional Convention (a body boycotted by the Tories, I believe) which built a powerful concensus around devolution on the model proposed by Labour in 1997 and then delivered a resounding “yes” vote in the referendum.
I believe he was also a strong supporter of proportional representation. As I say RIP Robin Cook - you will be missed.
UK newspapers are reporting that the Saudi’s may have given a warning of the bombings in London before they happened too. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050806/wl_mideast_afp/britainattackssaudi_050806232547
Gee that’s terrible news about Robin Cook. He was a decent politician, no yes-man, very intelligent and articulate. There are few like him.
The sad news about Robin Cook has meant that the cause of electoral reform has lost one of its greatest advocates. I can’t think of any other high profile Labour figure who would be prepared take on the likes of Prescott over the fair votes issue.
144 - “The Fair votes issue”, isn’t that also known as the “Weak Government Issue” or the “LibDems in government perpetually issue”?
140 Blue2win . My reply @ 122 to your 121 concerned a report that “a mosque” had reported one of the bombers as being “dangerous” . To which I replied “And …..” . My point is that throughout the past years since 9/11 information has flooded into the police , intelligence and security services . It’s the quality , scope and credibility of the information that is the important factor.
I’m surprised you find my gentle humour “automatic slagging of” and to describe my opinions as a “politically correct line” did raise my chuckle muscles somewhat .
Jack W Perhaps I am missing a post or two? Where did you make this argument? Certainly not in response to my post at 121.
Your contribution to the discussion on the HRA is in 118 “ Blue2Win. You wish”.
After I have reported in 121 that a Mosque referred one of the attempted bombers to the police your contribution in 122 is “Blue2win . And ………
I have this worrying feeling that your wandering along a dimly lit corridor towards Printz’s domain .”
And that is it. Where is the positive argument here?
Is implying that I am as mad as you constantly hint that Prinz is, not abuse? Not slagging off?
But perhaps I am being a little unfair and its simply your public school humour that gets in the way of comprehension.
TEST MATCH … Never in doubt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
147:
I am not surprised that some of these suspects are being protected.
The fact is the points I have made about the possibility of 7/7 being an inside job are very real.
The Sunday Times today reports how leaders of the Saviour Sect group have been inciting terror and then the Sunday Times uses that to make the case in support of Blair’s anti-terror laws.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1725412,00.html
Well there are laws in place already including incitement to violence, but the Blairite media don’t mention that.
The agenda is clear, voiced by Blair, Ian Blair and the Blairite media: to impose ever more tighter laws that take freedoms from us and give the government more control using the fear of more terror attacks as the justification, as has America with the duct tape and the Patriot Acts, that is effectively a licence for a police state, creating a nation that must comply with the imperialist ambitions of its leaders and dissenters can be arrested and detained with no reason given.
Going back to the Saviour Sect group, as the Sunday Times says it is a rebadging of the Al-Muhajiroun group.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1725412,00.html
Al-Muhajiroun was effectively sponsored by the security services and included Haroon Rashid Aswat, the suspected mastermind and bomb-maker of the 7/7 bombings. The leaders were agents and used in Kosovo and Albania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haroon_Rashid_Aswat
This should come as no surprise as we know UK and USA have previously used the most undesirable characters for their own purposes, including of course Saddam and the Taliban who we armed, now the evil enemy that justify us killing 100,000 plus. David Shayler revealed how the British funded a Libyan Al-Q cell to take out Gadaffi. In the 80s it was exposed in Congress how USA security services made use of Nazi war criminals. There are other examples and how widespread this is, is anyones guess.
We should therefore not be surprised if these men in Al-Muhajiroun are protected. They could be arrested today if there was the will.
It is a legitimate question to ask: if elements within the UK are prepared to use force and kill 100,000 people on a pack of lies, to achieve its ends, are a few rogue elements willing to kill 50 people on British soil to further its agenda?
If these men in Al-Muhajiroun have acted as agents for MI6, it is easy to see how a very small core within the security services or even involving one or two government members, who see advantage in Britain having its own Muslim bogey men, could pay the group to initiate the 7/7 attacks. It seems too much of a coincidence that there were bombing exercises being held at the same time of the bombings, at the same stations on the same day.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover070905a.htm
These “bombers” may have been led to believe they were taking part in the bombing exercises. That is just one of many possibilities, but the police have stated before 21/7 there is no hard evidence they were suicide bombers.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Londonattacks/0,,2-10-1854_1738872,00.html
This is also so of 9/11, which was a useful pretext to the neo-con agenda of taking out Afghanistan and Iraq and greater USA dominance, previously planned before Bush even got into the Whitehouse.
This isn’t a conspiracy theory. It is a real conspiracy possibility.
If we are to get at the truth, an open mind is important unless we simply accept what the establishment tell us without asking questions.
99. Nick Palmer
I apologise for calling the government morons I had had rather too much cofee on Friday afternoon!
111. Blue2Win
Nick Palmer was responding to me, not Printz, I assure you I am not he!
149 Jon Gale Yes, I am afraid I made a misattribution, having read two of Nick Palmer’s posts one after the other. I am sorry if this caused you any concern. I was a little careless there. Or was it carefree as I rushed into the lists?
It was, in any case, the content of Nick Palmer’s post that I was taking to task and not in anyway the source of his quotation.
147:
I am not surprised that some of these suspects are being protected.
The fact is the points I have made about the possibility of 7/7 being an inside job are very real.
The Sunday Times today reports how leaders of the Saviour Sect group have been inciting terror and then the Sunday Times uses that to make the case in support of Blair’s anti-terror laws.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1725412,00.html
Well there are laws in place already including incitement to violence, but the Blairite media don’t mention that.
The agenda is clear, voiced by Blair, Ian Blair and the Blairite media: to impose ever more tighter laws that take freedoms from us and give the government more control using the fear of more terror attacks as the justification, as has America with the duct tape and the Patriot Acts, that is effectively a licence for a police state, creating a nation that must comply with the imperialist ambitions of its leaders and dissenters can be arrested and detained with no reason given.
Going back to the Saviour Sect group, as the Sunday Times says it is a rebadging of the Al-Muhajiroun group.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1725412,00.html
CONTINUED POST:
Al-Muhajiroun was effectively sponsored by the security services and included Haroon Rashid Aswat, the suspected mastermind and bomb-maker of the 7/7 bombings. The leaders were agents and used in Kosovo and Albania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haroon_Rashid_Aswat
This should come as no surprise as we know UK and USA have previously used the most undesirable characters for their own purposes, including of course Saddam and the Taliban who we armed, now the evil enemy that justify us killing 100,000 plus. David Shayler revealed how the British funded a Libyan Al-Q cell to take out Gadaffi. In the 80s it was exposed in Congress how USA security services made use of Nazi war criminals. There are other examples and how widespread this is, is anyones guess.
We should therefore not be surprised if these men in Al-Muhajiroun are protected. They could be arrested today if there was the will.
It is a legitimate question to ask: if elements within the UK are prepared to use force and kill 100,000 people on a pack of lies, to achieve its ends, are a few rogue elements willing to kill 50 people on British soil to further its agenda?
If these men in Al-Muhajiroun have acted as agents for MI6, it is easy to see how a very small core within the security services or even involving one or two government members, who see advantage in Britain having its own Muslim bogey men, could pay the group to initiate the 7/7 attacks. It seems too much of a coincidence that there were bombing exercises being held at the same time of the bombings, at the same stations on the same day.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover070905a.htm
These “bombers” may have been led to believe they were taking part in the bombing exercises. That is just one of many possibilities, but the police have stated before 21/7 there is no hard evidence they were suicide bombers.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Londonattacks/0,,2-10-1854_1738872,00.html
This is also so of 9/11, which was a useful pretext to the neo-con agenda of taking out Afghanistan and Iraq and greater USA dominance, previously planned before Bush even got into the Whitehouse.
This isn’t a conspiracy theory. It is a real conspiracy possibility.
An open mind is important unless we are to simply accept what the establishment tell us without asking questions.
147 Blue2win . I’m sure you didn’t mean to mislead but my post @ 118 was specific to your last paragraph @ 116 as stated . I have as yet not voiced an opinion on revisions to the HRA as the government has as yet not brought forward detailed specific proposals .
As for Printz’s Dark Room this is a standing joke on the site that others and Printz’s himself have contributed to in a jocular spirit . May I gently advice you to take such amiable ribbing in similar vein . Nevertheless Printz will be pleased that he has a champion in yourself although I think from his posts he’s certainly not in need of one !
Yet again Printz, you are clearly repeating the rubbish of conspiracy theorists. The one term that conspiracy theorists prize if ‘who benefits’. How the hell does Tony Blair benefit from a police state? from public fear? from a economic slowdown? And tell me Printz in this new police state, why are you on here saying whatever you want?
155, burbachchris.
Maybe I should repeat my last line:
“An open mind is important unless we are to simply accept what the establishment tell us without asking questions.”
I never said there was reason to believe Tony Blair was involved. I made an argument and provided sources. Now I see you aren’t refuting anything that I wrote.
I apologise that it is off topic and will cease if Mr Smithson does not like it.
However these are, I believe, the most important issues facing us at this moment and questions that I am raising are being supressed by politicians, the mainstream media and people that have closed minds.
152-’Well there are laws in place’
Agree plenty including treason et al.However, the main point of this suddden flurry of activity, is to get the media,Liberty & people to start talking about it,loss of civil liberties etc.
Whilst they are talking about this they are not talking about:
-The link between the Iraq war and the Terrorist bombings in London.
-The government that freely allowed the poison preachers free passage in & out of the UK .
-The government that allowed Al-Quadea to openly recriut in the UK & for British muslims to train in Afghanisatan to learn how to kill their own countrymen.
-The government that has had non existent border controls & freely admits that we have 1 million people illegaly in the UK but does nothing about it.
Its nothing but a diversion tactic to keep the focus of blame away from the government,believe it will be seen through fairly quickly just as the ridiculous claims after 7/7 that the terrorist bombings in London had nothing to do with the war in Iraq.
The BBC is reporting that the government is prepared to contemplate bringing charges of treason against certain individuals (last used in 1945 IIRC against “Lord Haw Haw”) - does anyone know if it still carries the death penalty? (I’m pretty sure we no longer have a Public Hangman :))
I think the death penalty has been removed for treason (and piracy, and arson in Her Majesty’s dockyards) but can’t remember the exact details.
158-159. The 1998 Crime and Disorder Act abolished the death penalty for treason and piracy with violence.
Printz. You have surpassed yourself with your indescribably stupid posts. Another couple of days and you’ll drive every sane poster off the board. Keep up the good work!
[159][160] That must be a relief for Charles Clarke
Roger wrote:
Printz. You have surpassed yourself with your indescribably stupid posts. Another couple of days and you’ll drive every sane poster off the board. Keep up the good work!
Reply:
Is that the best argument you have? I note you seem unable to refute any specific points. All the information I have given is in the public domain. Now which part is stupid?
John wrote:
Whilst they are talking about this they are not talking about:
-The link between the Iraq war and the Terrorist bombings in London.
-The government that freely allowed the poison preachers free passage in & out of the UK .
-The government that allowed Al-Quadea to openly recriut in the UK & for British muslims to train in Afghanisatan to learn how to kill their own countrymen.
-The government that has had non existent border controls & freely admits that we have 1 million people illegaly in the UK but does nothing about it.
Its nothing but a diversion tactic to keep the focus of blame away from the government,believe it will be seen through fairly quickly just as the ridiculous claims after 7/7 that the terrorist bombings in London had nothing to do with the war in Iraq.
Reply:
I agree. A very good post. The failure of this government to protect its own citizens, which is surely the main duty of a government, is breathtaking and so is its ability to manipulate the gullible.
If you want a sensible critique of your posts Printz you’ll have to do better that cutting and pasting from nutters.com
Firstly, you still have not been able to dispute anything specifically I have written. Your replies are frankly just rude, while ignorant and lacking any substance. Whereas, I seek the truth, you dismiss anything that doesn’t fit within your narrow keyhole view of the world.
Lastly, I have not cut and pasted from anywhere and have drawn on respected sources and given links such as News 24, Times on Line and Wikipedea for example. I try to provide these links so readers can read further information if they wish.
There are any number of conspiracy and cock-up theories around at the moment and many are based on speculation rather than hard evidence. Some seem based on re-writes of X-Files scripts. Others are much madder and badder than you will find on PB.com.
There are reports (some from the mainstream press) that might suggest some very worrying weaknesses in the use or the analysis of intelligence before the first bomb attacks, but again it is difficult to assess these without full information and detailed evidence.
It is to clear up all these issues and to reassure the people in the UK, that there should be a parliamentary enquiry to provide a definitive report on what happened and seek to learn lessons from it.
Some elements will be very positive for the government, such as the effectiveness of the plans for the emergency services and their application, and Tony Blair’s very solid performance in the immediate aftermath of the attack and his willingness to adopt measures his party previously opposed.
There will be less positive elements such as the weakness in Charles Clarke’s performance, weak border controls and lax decisions in citizenship grants, and questions about the police coverage of the transport system, particularly between the first wave of bombs and the failed second attempt.
And there will be lots of things where neither praise nor blame is appropriate but the learning curve will be invaluable.
There ought to be disclosure of the ‘secret’ protocols (if they exist) which Newsnight reported on recently that cover the use of firearms in the current circumstances. The use of Tasers when arresting potential suicide bombers is clearly controversial within the police force. That needs some clarity on what happened and why. After the underground shooting was there pressure on the police to take a risk and use non-lethal weapons? There are a myriad of questions like this that are fuelling fantasies and nightmares.
We ought to know what went right and what went wrong from an open enquiry. Let parliament do its job and have a committee of both houses to look into this for all our sakes, and to kill off as many of the rumours as possible.
Being open with people is never a mistake when you need their cooperation. Spin won’t win that cooperation, openness will. The enquiry will help people understand why some things are necessary and why previous ones were not effective.
An enquiry shouldn’t be held yet but rather a date should be set for sometime after parliament sits again. It won’t interfere with the judicial process as it will be parallel to it. By October or November the main investigation should be providing some key data, and as in the US and Spain, in doing that the continuing investigations need not be hampered or compromised.
The government’s continued refusal to hold such an enquiry will inevitably fuel suspicions that they have something to hide ( it shouldn’t in any case be for the government to decide but rather parliament, but ho-hum). They may well have concerns about further damage to the NuLab charabanc, but this is a time for the government to rise to the occasion and do the right thing for the country as a whole.
Nanny Knows Best has a very good example of how not to be multicultural at http://nannyknowsbest.blogspot.com/ under ‘Softly Softly Task Force’. Can it be real and true?
Blue2Win
I agree there are some wild conspiracy theories.
For example the one that the Pentagon was hit by a missile and not a plane and the hole in the wall hit is too small for the plane.
To believe that you would have to ask these questions?
What did they do with the real plane and the people on the plane if it didn’t hit the Pentagon?
What was the point in using a missile and not the real plane anyway?
Isn’t the Pentagon one of the strongest office buildings in USA had recently been further reinforced with steel columns?
And what about the 20,000 plus workers at the Pentagon, many of them intelligence experts, and also the fire fighters and emergency and clear-up crews? Were they not suspicious? Or were they all in with the conspiracy? And the people involved in hiding the real plane?
Isn’t it most likely that the wings sheered off on impact? And that is why the hole in the Pentagon is smaller than the size of the plane?
This is why I don’t subscribe to these sort of theories where lots of people would be involved. I don’t buy it that thousands of people working together in one place can all be on in the conspiracy.
However, we have to ask, how do we know if a small core within our own security services or even government aren’t aiding and abetting atrocities to further an agenda? This could be just one person, or a dozen or so.
The evidence is there that they have aided and abetted terrorists to act against others, even Robin cook said Al-Qaeda were a database of “the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA.”
Wouldn’t it be rather easy for a small corrupt rogue element to give the terrorist leaders working as agents a nod to carry out attacks on UK or USA soil or elsewhere?
How could we ever know? All we can do is look at what information is available, statements from key figures and suspicious actions and unlikely coincidences. Many of these things are hard for the hardest conspiracy sceptic to dispute. They may be dismissed as rubbish, but it is clear some things don’t seem to add up as they should.
Simply accepting everything we are told, is I believe highly dangerous, as we then create a situation where possible corruption is left to thrive.
By looking at theories to explain what has happened publicly, our governments should be forced to bring into the open inquiries, not whitewashes, into security and circumstances surrounding terrorist outrages.
As you say that is what is needed and if things are hidden, it is only in human nature that some of us will be suspicious and continue to ask questions until those questions are answered.
Printz
This is the sort of tosh that you base your theories on, much of it is 2+2 = 56.
34: Do you not have smileys on your computer? It was a JOKE
57: Have only ever met 1 MP - Alan Howarth who was mine in 1992. Shook my hand, promised to fight for this and that….then joined teh Labour party. Not in it for himself? Don’t make me laugh.
But of course you are right, these people are the exception rather than the rule, although I can’t help feeling to make it to the VERY top of the greasy pole strong principles are a hindrance not a help.
167 I must amend my own contribution here and delete the sentence: ‘Others (conspiracy theories) are much madder and badder than you will find on PB.com’. It has been overtaken by events.
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