London 2008: the runners
September 1st, 2005Will it be Ken Livingstone’s turn again?
I think the first comment I ever posted on this site concerned the London mayoral election last year. The winner was the hot favourite Ken Livingstone, but Mike Smithson was proved right in his prediction that Steve Norris would close the gap in the betting odds and polls as the campaign went on.
Some bets on the next-but-one election – in 2012 – are already available under the umbrella of William Hill’s Olympic-themed markets. We covered these last week and thought 50/1 against Livingstone and 33/1 against the Conservative Lord Coe both looked like decent bets. But what we don’t have yet is a market on the next election in 2008.
The big question is whether Livingstone will stand again. Before his first election in 2000 he said that if he won, he would only serve one term. He didn’t – and hardly surprising: it’s not easy to imagine running London tiring him. Though he will be 63 at the time of the 2008 election, he may well wish to continue, and if he does then most Labour figures would consider it unwise to challenge him. Another Livingstone candidacy would be a tough challenge for the other parties: as a master of the media, his relaxed and informal image appeals outside the ranks of usual Labour voters. In the 2004 election, he polled 36.8% of first preference votes, compared to Labour’s 25.0% in the list section of the Greater London Assembly elections on the same day. As ever, his behaviour since 2004 has had its controversial moments, but this may well help his plain-speaking persona.
If Livingstone does step down, the battle for the Labour nomination will be an interesting one. One consequence of Livingstone’s media magnetism has been that the Greater London Assembly gets far less coverage than the Mayor, and Labour’s representatives there have little profile. That might see them edged out in favour of a London MP or another Labour figure such as Trevor Phillips, who went for the mayoral nomination in 2000, sat on the GLA from 2000–2003 and now chairs the Commission for Racial Equality.
On the Conservative side, the most mentioned name has been Olympic gold medallist, former MP and now peer Sebastian Coe, whose prominence has been renewed by leading London’s successful bid for the 2012 Olympics. As someone well known for achievements outside politics, he seems to have the potential to overcome the “tarnished brand” of the party. But does he want to stand? It’s questionable whether he would rather take on the struggles of a partisan role rather than gain more consensual recognition by continuing to work on the planning of the Olympics.
The Liberal Democrats have two ultimately quite disappointing campaigns to look back on. Susan Kramer (now MP for Richmond Park) was seen to have fought an intelligent campaign on policy in 2000; but despite her campaign featuring arguably Britain’s first political blog, the wider impact was weak and Kramer finished fourth with 11.9% of the first-preference vote. In 2004, the candidate was the much more prominent Simon Hughes – but the campaign, seeming this time to attack the Tories harder than it did the incumbent, disappointed and the result was 15.3% of the vote. In 2008, the strategy will be rethought, but sticking with an MP with a pre-existing public profile seems sensible. Possible contenders could be Hornsey and Wood Green MP Lynne Featherstone, who previously served on the GLA; or Carshalton and Wallington MP Tom Brake, surely a headline writer’s dream for a post in which transport policy figures strongly.
Bookies know what is coming next from me: give us a market!
Philip Grant
Guest editor
Mike Smithson is on holiday until 5th September.
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Good piece, Phil. BTW, I can’t remember anyone here ever moaning that we’re too London-centric - let’s see if we can’t change that!
I doubt anyone will seriously consider a run at the job for 18 months or so, but as far as the LDs are concerned Lynne Featherstone looks a good bet, particularly as neither of the other parties has yet put up a woman candidate.
In theory, a Mayor could be elected on outer London votes because of differential turnout, and this would seem to offer the Tories their best hope. If Coe wants the job - and I’ve seen nothing to suggest that he actually does - he ought to run in ‘08 (and ideally just lose, so that he isn’t responsible for the inevitable panic and c*ck-ups but is established as the “king over the water” as we-know-who would say).
Ken may of course beat himself. Although he has so far got away with various - what shall I say - “late night” episodes, it is not wholly inconceivable that he’ll have one too many and Gordon Brown may even arrive in No. 10 just in time to expel him again!
My own hope would be that at least one of the main candidates would pick up an idea that Ken himself raised and then let drop, the number of London Boroughs. There are 32 - New York manages with five!
That number was arrived at in the days when councils did everything in-house and councillors had expenses only. The 14 GLA constituencies provide an obvious simplification roue - I don’t know if any of the academics from the Greater London Group (at the LSE) read this page, but they would be excellet people to do a report on the costs and benefits.
Typo - “route” not “roue” in the last para.
2 - and there I was, for a moment thinking you were referring to Ken himself ….!
1 - Thanks, IA. The idea of merging boroughs is interesting - on the New York example, would you imagine more powers being transferred from the boroughs to the GLA? Though I could get a bit sentimental about the idea of the smaller pre-1974 boroughs (except for Wandsworth which was bigger than it is now!), you could make a case for saying that since most of the boroughs are now too big to be cohesive, why not make them even bigger for efficiency, while trying some devolution to smaller “community council” type units within them.
I suspect Labour wouldn’t dare throw Livingstone out again given what happened in 2000!
In London weren’t the boroughs created in 1965, rather than 1974? (just to be picky…)
5 - oops: you are entirely correct. Thanks.
1- But if you lined them up with the constituencies that would last only until the next boundary changes, unless you propose changing the councils every time as well.
The GLA constituencies are amalgamations of existing boroughs though - they are not really based on parliamentary constituencies (except that the same pairings of boroughs are often used by the Boundary Commission).
A minor point, but the official results website gives Hughes 14.8% of first preferences in 2004.
The ward by ward breakdown of the 2004 London election results is interesting, although incomplete as the postal votes are only tallied at borough level.
Hughes topped the poll in only eight wards, seven in his own Southwark constituency plus Tolworth and Hook Rise. The only other mayoral candidate apart from Norris to ‘win’ a ward was German for Respect in Spitalfields and Banglatown.
Norris did well in the outermost London boroughs - Hillingdon, Bromley, Bexley and particularly Havering where he was ahead in every ward except Gooshays.
Livingstone outperformed the Labour GLA list everywhere. He won more votes than any other mayoral candidate in Richmond, Kingston and Wandsworth. In six boroughs (Lewisham, Lambeth, Newham, Hackney, Islington and Haringey) he was ahead in every ward. The biggest gap between Livingstone and Labour was in places such as Kentish Town, Stroud Green and Crouch End, while the lowest was in Southall.
If Livingstone decides not to stand a third time or is prevented from doing so, it is difficult to think of anyone who could do as well for Labour.
9 - “A minor point, but the official results website gives Hughes 14.8% of first preferences in 2004.”
Thanks - this is a bit strange. If you take the actual numbers of votes from that site and calculate the percentage, you get my figure. I suspect they may be including spoilt papers in their denominator, but it is not standard to do so.
Mr Value, were he to be unsuccessful in his attempt to lead the party, I believe Sir Malcolm would make a good candidate. He represents a London constituency and is exactly the sort of safe pair of hands our City needs in the run up to 2012.
Robert [3] - kindly leave my subconscious
[7][8] As Scottish experience shows, using boundaries created for one purpose for another is a way to do things quickly and then get in a muddle later on.
Most Londoners feel that they belong to London itself and to their neighbourhood, which in some cases is a pre-1965 borough (e.g. Tottenham), more usually a postal district (e.g. Dulwich) and occasionally maybe only a ward or so (e.g. Clerkenwell). All of these are too small for “efficiency” in the “client-contractor” culture of local service delivery that all parties now espouse.
If you’re re-organizing, it does make for simplicity merely to lump together existing administrative units (although as has been mentioned this was broached in the case of Wandsworth last time - don’t know why they didn’t leave it alone and join Lambeth and Battersea). However I find postal districts suggestive, this could give ten councils based on North, North-West, West, South-west, South-east, Metro-Essex, Metro-Middlesex (and a bit of Herts I think), Metro-Surrey and the City (which, take a deep breath, could be expanded to cover the WC, EC and W1 postal districts to provide a proper central London authority).
Personally I find the idea of breaking Hackney in two and Westminster in three good for the soul
Robert [3] - kindly leave my subconscious
right, that’s the last time I write a post in Notepad and cut and paste! My apologies.
11, 12 - I’ve fixed it. Good post, especially in its short form
I don’t know what the idea with Wandsworth was - perhaps just to equalise sizes a bit. To me Clapham and Streatham seem to belong with Balham and Tooting, rather than Vauxhall, but perhaps that was less so in 1965.
10. I didn’t spot that. You’re right of course, it should be 15.3%.
Good article again Book Value.
Glad you mentioned Lynne Featherstone as a possible Libdem choice. Yesterday I suggested her as a possible future star for in the party, but it seems nobody else liked her (she was ignored in yesterday’s thread).
The choice of Labour’s candidate if Red Ken won’t stand is interesting. It’ll depend what type of candidate labour will want. If they want a New Labour type of candidate, Trevor Philips could be a strong contender.
Morning Andrea, do you think we’ll “out” any more closet LDs today?
I agree with you on Lynne Featherstone - from what I’ve heard of her she seems articulate. She will need to develop more of a profile, but perhaps as a former GLA member she already has that in London. Outside the capital she’s not well recognised.
16, 17 - thanks Andrea. On the council and GLA Lynne Featherstone was pretty good at building a local profile for herself. I think she would be an effective campaigner in a mayoral race.
17. Tabman, it’s a pretty difficult task to out closet libdems in denial. Brighton is organizing the first Libdems National Pride event. Don’t miss it. Lots of Winning Here placards and Bracharts will be given awat as gifts.
Edwina Currie is very concerned by the situation: she’ll soon table an amendment to lift the ban of libdems from the armed forces
Clarke is set to attack Blair over Iraq war: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4203296.stm
Hopefully Clare Short won’t decide to defect to the toris.
19 s’funny, I thought it was in Blackpool in a couple of weeks
If Edwina gets her way Stuart will be apoplectic.
[19] “Bracharts” - calm down Andrea…
BV - a huge thankyou for cleaning up my last substantive post. I wonder if Robert Waller feels like adding a “preview” button one of these fine days…
Lynne Featherstone is clearly a formidable campaigner - Hornsey-WG wasn’t even in Lord Rennard’s dreams in 1997
Which sort of reminds me that one thing our little community really stands in need of is a committed Labourite from the capital - unless I’m missing something…
Re Andrea at 19
Not on my Ship they wont
8 Book Value - Certainly in South East London the Boundary Commission uses different pairings to the GLA.
Greenwich & Lewisham, Bexley & Bromley are the two GLA seats. Greenwich is paired with Bexley and Lewisham with Bromley for Westminster constituencies.
Believe me if the two were consistent it would make our lives a lot easier. They won’t though, because it might deliver two Conservative GLA seats rather then one
)
As for Conservative mayoral candidate it won’t be Seb Coe. He is going to be running the organising committee for 2012 so won’t get involved until after then. I’m sure it will be Boris Johnson.
The Brave men and women of HM forces have enough to contend with guns not working, using mobiless insttead of secure radios, with out having to put up with political correct dictacts from ex M.P’s that do not know the real world we face.
I ask you, do any of you know the operational difficulties we would be faced with introducing lib dems into the war zone. New separate accomadation will be needed (so that the existing tories and right wing socialists would not lose their killer instincts), and space taken by they non radar deflecting winning here placards onboard ship could be better used storing ammunition.
21. Innocent Abroad, I don’t accept lessons from someone who suggested that the 14 GLA constituencies are roue (post 2).
23 - “I’m sure it will be Boris Johnson.”
I think I see a pattern in the candidates here: Norris, Johnson… Mellor in 2012?
24. Pay attention that you could be sued and taken in front of the European Court of Human Rights.
16 - O/T Andrea, the English surname Featherstonehaugh is pronounced “Fanshaw”. Imagine giving that name over the phone: “Hello, its John Fanshaw” “How do you spell that, sir?”
Andrea we JO’s took an oath never to surrender HM soverenty of forces to EU or their courts. I’d like to see them try to get me. Anyway we have our own courts and MP’s (the good kind of MP’s)
The Clarke speech has just finished on the T.V. I now see why he is such a threat to the Liberal Democrats. Why on earth have none of the Lib Dems been able to articulate the case against the war in as powerful way as Clarke? It isn’t just the failure in this instance; it raises questions about political competence more generally.
28. Tabman, sadly, I’m not very good in English pronunciation. I would never guessed that Featherstonehaugh is pronounced “Fanshaw”.
Feather-stone in Italian would be “Penna-pietra” or somehting like this.
29. S Penketh, the HM forces and the UK government were actually really sued to European Court of Human Rights for discrimination regarding the ban over gays inthe armed forces. The government and HM forces lost the case and then the labour government decided not to accept the ruling and lift the ban. The case was taken to Strasbourg by four former military employees supported by Stonewall.
When Edwina Currie (with Michael Brown and Gerald Kaufman) tabled for the first time an amendment to lift the ban, the then Opposition Spokesman on Defence (and all defence showdow ministers) voted against Edwina’s amendment.
31.”not to accept ”
ops, the government decided “to accept”
30 - I think that’s unfair on Kennedy and Campbell who I think have put the case pretty well over the years and have demonstrably won support over it. It appears to be a risky move by Clarke - almost all the electorate in the leadership contest voted for the war and when Ken condemns Bush’s judgement on the matter he equally condemns theirs. Blair’s responses at PMQs if Clarke wins almost write themselves - “How many of the people sitting on the frontbench next to you opposed the decision to invade Iraq? None!” etc.
Re Sebastian Coe and Boris Johnson as possible Conservative candidates for London mayor - do either of them actually live in London ??
34 - Mark, I would imagine they both have at least one house in London; it becomes difficult to say where they live in such circumstances.
34 - I suspect the answer is not exclusively, but frequently. Honestly, Mark - anyone would think you didn’t own four or five homes yourself!
Andre i am more then aware of that ruling. It was a parodyof the situation.
Still sad though that the government, elected by the people, whether right or wrong could be overruled on something as important as defence of their own realm
Is anyone actually really imagining Boris Johnson running London?
He’s a funny man, but I don’t really see him as London mayor.
37. why do you consider that ruling a parody of the situation?
Don’t worry, the government could always ignore the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights.
Andrea
I was giving silly exagerated excuses not to accept Lib Dems on ships, such as ones that were given when women and Gays were alllowded onboard HM Ships. I believe that to be a parody, correct me if i’m wrong.
40. sorry,S penketh, I’ve mis-interpreted you: I thought you were saying the real ruling was a parody.
Quite alright old chap
34/35 - Sadly I don’t even own 1 house myself , but seriously you can imagine the Conservative Cheadle campaign trying to maintain that Sheffield and Henley are at the heart of London LOL
40 - Stuart, AFAIK gays have always been present, and often welcome, onboard ship. What’s the title of that Pogues album?
44. Tabman, I don’t dare to read the Hansard report about the sitting when the ban was discussed. I couldn’t thunk what evidence Edwina (is she still voting tory?) and friend gave to lift the ban.
I’m still a bit shocked from having read the age of consent debate
42. S penketh, I could mis-understand you again ….are you telling I’m old!?
Were not going down that old alley Tabman.
I would have prefered a situation were sexuality was not discussed, and relationships definately not allowded, hence why I didn’t serve on the same ship as my ex. relationships effect the command of ships and can lead to clouding of judgement which was sadly becoming all to prevalant when I left, Invalided out.
No andrea it is a friendly hail
[46] Were not going down that old alley Tabman
Calm down IA, take a deep breath and don’t say anything…
47. I’ ll pardon you this time, but the next time you’ll be taken in front of the European Court of Human Rights!
positively shocking,
46 - Stuart, I hope your condition is much improved (sincere) since leaving.
To be honest, I would have thought that bans or not would have little difference in the end. You put humans of whatever gender and oreintation together in confined and pressured circumstances and relationships will ensue, covert, overt, or whatever. It happens in all organisations. Admittedly in the military lives are at stake, but there are plenty of examples of military incompetence that did not feature such issues.
48 - IA, many thought it, you had to mention it …
Re Tabman at 51
Thank you.
You are also right relationships always do occur regardless of gender, but before relaxation of the rules, relationships were kept private. Very little interference with the job occured because it would mean the end of a carer, I feel it has swung around to much now.
While the Greater London Group at the LSE are committed to large boroughs (during the Herbert Commission meetings of the late ’50s, which proposed the GLC, their predecessors strongly recommended it) there’d be considerable resistence. Some of the 1965 boroughs, it is true, aren’t coherent communities, but much larger units would have even greater remoteness from the areas they covered, and with five large sub-units, one might as well abolish the GLA and leave London with five unitary authorities.
Carrer sorry not a carer, would be great if we all had a personal carer
53. S penketh, are you in favour of a “don’t ask/don’t tell” type of solution?
If the Conservatives have a good candidate who can strike the right note with London’s communities and possess a good media presence, then the Mayoralty can be won, even against Ken. The problem is finding that candidate. Portillo would be an obvious choice, but I hardly think he’s going to be very attracted by it. My own choice would be Andrew Boff, but he’s got to boost his profile.
57.”Portillo would be an obvious choice, but I hardly think he’s going to be very attracted by it”
Red Ken will retire and we’ll see Portillo against Diane Abbott for Mayoralty.
Dear Andrea what gender someone is doesn’t bother me as long as it is done in private, on any gender, as long as they can get the job done and our loyal to queen and country that is fine by me. S’x was not disscussed that much in the wardroom ,apart from some officers who were not gentlemen (gentlemen not being a class issue). For instance I only knew one fellow officer was l#sbian when I saw all her K D Lang posters up at her house, good competant officer who didn’t discuss her s#xuality.
Similarly she had no idea when in Portsmouth she was in the company of my girlfriend, she said she could tell we liked each other, but it wasn’t untill my opo asked me where I was taking her that night that she realised it was my girlfriend.
On that note I can recommend the ferry to Isle of wight and a train to Sanddown, lovely beach and resturants. The lobster there is delicious
58 - Urrgh. There’d be less of a debate than a mutual love-in….
53 - Hi Stuart , I am a little confused as to whether you want to go back to the days of for example the RAF Anti-Lesbian military police , ban all relationships irrespective of sexuality of participants or maintain the status quo and pretend that human beings in the Armed Forces do not have relationships .
Book Value / Philip, just to say sorry that cricket and other terribly important matters have limited the time I have been able to devote to following the site in recent weeks, but what a fine job you are doing in Mike’s absence! Thanks and congratulations.
21, IA, not sure I can follow the reference to myself here; do you perhaps mean Robert Smithson, and I have just got into your unconscious again …?!
59.”what gender someone is doesn’t bother me as long as it is done in private”
well, I think you can guess the gender of a person even without that person telling you!
60. Observer, after his defeat Stephen Twigg asked Portillo to dump Abbott and to make room for him on the couch. I’m not sure he was realizing what type of thoughts that offer could produce.
61. Robert, it seems that the 80% of the posters here are cricket obsessed fans.
62 - I dont know Andrea - most people here guessed your gender incorrectly to start with!
55 - you could also have used the word “career”. I think the Countdown job is still available, Stuart!
63. but they haven’t seen me. I’ve a bit of beard (no, not that beard!), so it shouldn’t be so difficult.
Before seeing him, I thought Hilary Benn was a woman.
65 Shirley Crabtree.
I’m not fat enough James, nor am i funny enough
66. Tabman, that Shirley is a real bombshell.
Btw, where is the closet Libdem?
68 - He’s left the 50 video screens in his underground bunker in deepest St Albans, and, following a meeting with the DG BBC over his latest programme idea (Bonnie Prince Charlie in drag on ice) is hot footing it to Cowley Street where he’ll enter by the back door, and tire out his wrist enthusiastically turning the handle on the Focus duplicator machine!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4204186.stm
Labour peer and MSP Mike Watson has pleaded guilty to deliberately starting a fire at an Edinburgh hotel last year and he has resigned from the Scottish parliament.
A byelection for Glasgow Cathcart will be called soon.
61 - Thanks, Robert.
Unless you have even more talents than we aware of, I think IA probably meant to refer to Robert Smithson.
Phil, Tom Brake seems a rather random person to suggest as Lib Dem candidate…Obviously there’s the transport link as you say, but I’ve not heard him suggested before.
73 - It was a half-serious suggestion - I liked the pun. But he’s a London MP and (unlike Vince Cable, say) young enough to have a go at it.
OT. Germany’s last 2 polls are showing CDU-FDP block at 49% and the left block at 48%.
75 - Interesting…I just had a questioning thought. How accurate are the polls in Germany generally - do they often overestimate one at the expense of the other, for example?
74 - fair enough. I like the guy, personally, but I get the impression he’s not too popular in much of the party.
71 - Andrea
There was talk of a triple by-election in Scotland.
From what I remember, Brakes would resign and force a by-election in Glasgow to be held at the same time as the Livingston contest as well as a third by-election in… er… can’t remember the name, but someone will, it’s the seat where I seem to remember the incumbent MP had had a stroke.
63, Andrea, cricket - an acquired taste, I know, but at least I acquired mine many years before England’s current ability to compete with world champions Australia made it fashionable! … and I follow / am involved in the game at all levels down to the most unprofessional village cricket level too.
I am currently raising a team to play for the former MP for Tunbridge Wells, Patrick Mayhew, who is ‘lord of the manor’ in his home area and presides over an annual match between his XI and the village. Very feudal!
76.Try with this site:
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm
Click over the pollster’s name and you could see all the past polls (since 1998).
I wasn’t able to find a clear pattern in overestimation or underestimation (for ex some pollsters could have overestimated a particular party in 2002, but underestimated it in 1998)
78. Rachel Squire in Dunfermline and Fife West (I admit to have checked the name of the constituency, I only remembered that was something with D)
79, Good luck with your team
Re 78
There has indeed been talk of triple by-elections in Scotland. Whether Lord Watson can resign in time to allow a Cathcart Scottish Parliament election on the same day as the Livingston by-election (expected 22nd or 29th September) and Labour can persuade Rachel Squire MP to resign for health reasons in Dunfermline & West Fife all on the same timescale really has to be questioned. It would however make Labour’s job easier as there is no way the SNP could fight all three at once.
[72] Yes, I wrote Waller for Smithson. My shrink’s on her hols…
82.”It would however make Labour’s job easier as there is no way the SNP could fight all three at once”
In Dunfermline & West Fife the Libdems are in second place. If this supposed by-election will take place in the same day (or time) as the Livingston’s one, the SNP will fight Livingston harder, while the libdems will go after Dunfermline.
Mark Senior
i don’t particular want any lesbian branch again, just an innappriate relationship section, for instance in the navy personnel shouldn’t have open relationships on the same ship unless, say being temporary accomadated on the same shore base, as long as not serving together. having accomadation together on the same base is different from serving together.
A bit a dark humour I was reminded of the naval regulators were listening in on phonecalls (mobiles) in the base and picked up the conversation of two serving Le#bians, upon monitoring the calls (very explicit) they arrested one of the girls. Upon being released, after questioning, she phoned her partner who asked if she named any others. To which she went through a list of other Les#ian couples on the base that she hadn’t grassed up. This were then promptly rounded up and dissmissed of service.
Personally I could have thought of better things the regulators could have been investigating. As the girls kept themselves quiet, surely they could have been placed on separate bases. As these weren’t on accomadation they were serving together at the base. If you can understand that.
81, thanks Andrea; in case it all sounds rather Tory I should say that in past years I have tried to get Labour MPs David Miliband and Graham Allen to play …
[79] Robert, I trust you have a blacksmith to open the bowling. if you need a half-blind umpire, just say the word
Mark Senior
I don’t particular want any les#ian branch again, just an innappriate relationship section. For instance, in the navy, personnel shouldn’t have open relationships on the same ship unless, say being temporary accomadated on the same shore base, as long as not serving together. having accomadation together on the same base is different from serving together.
A bit of dark humour I was reminded of the naval regulators were listening in on phonecalls (mobiles) in the base and picked up the conversation of two serving Le#bians, upon monitoring the calls (very explicit) they arrested one of the girls. Upon being released, after questioning, she phoned her partner who asked if she named any others. To which she went through a list of other Le##ian couples on the base that she hadn’t grassed up. These were then promptly rounded up and dissmissed from the service.
Personally I could have thought of better things the regulators could have been investigating. As the girls kept themselves quiet, surely they could have been placed on separate bases. As these weren’t on accomadation they were serving together at the base. If you can understand that.
88 - I find it hard to believe that you seem to be saying that what you want is a Big Brother military police rounding up anyone having a relationship of any sort on the same base/ship/airfield . This would soon end up with an armed forces consisting of solely eunuchs . It may stop cases being taken to the EU court for discrimination but is hardly practical given human nature .
The fights over the boundaries of the 32 London Boroughs warrents a book. The original Herbert Commission wanted to push London out to what we would now call the M25. there was an extraordinary battle and places like Esher stayed in Surrey, although Surrey’s county town ended up as a London Borough and a Middlesex Urban District (Staines and Sunbury on Thames) became a Borough (Spelthorne) in Surrey, despite being north of the thames.
The 32 Boroughs were an amalgam of over 120 different authorities, including 3 County Boroughs, 28 Metropolitan Boroughs and Municipal Boroughs and various Urban Districts.
Wandsworth was, I am fairly certain, drawn by either the Town Clerk of Oxford or the Town Clerk of South Shields!
Wandsworth was by far the largest Met Borough, however it completely surrounded, except in a tiny corner Battersea. A combined Wandsworth Battersea would in 1963 have been huge. Now it would be manageable.
The solution was to split most of Streatham and most of Clapham from Wandsworth and join them to Lambeth. The remainder of Wandsworth (Putney, Wandsworth Central and Furzedown and Balham wards) joined Battersea. The Furzedown and Balham wards of the new Boroughs had different boundaries. For example the first Nightingale ward of Wandsworth straddled the Battersea South, Clapham and Wandsworth central constituencies.
There was a proposal (late) to join Lambeth/Battersea by using Larkhall ward as a link, although it would have looked a very odd Borough.
The other authority to be sliced in half was Chislehurst and Sidcup UDC - part ging to Bexley and part to Bromley.
Harrow MB remained the only authority to retain exactly it’s own boundaries.
There wee some amzing battles over names and boundaries - at one point Haringey was nearly called Moselle or Totsey Green. It is spelt Haringey to differentiate the Borough from Harringay, the dog track.
There should have been a Heathrow Borough (Hayes and Harlington UD, Feltham UD, Southall MB and Staines and Sunbury UD) In the north Edmonton Tottenham and part of Enfield should have merged with the remainder of Enfield joining Southagte MB and Wood Green MB.
In the west, Wembley pleaded with anyone to take them rather than end up with Willesden. The rejections by Hendon, Harrow and Ealing are quite sad.
If anything for localism the Boroughs should be broken down. It is amazing 40 years on to hear people too young to have ever known it talk about Shoreditch, believe me they do!
Mark
Sorry wasn’t enirly clear. I don’t particularly want a big brother MP, regulators or whatever, I just don’t believe in open relationships whilst serving. Of course they happen but when there was tight rules against it they kept it very underground and it did not show up in the work. The MPs would leave these alone (if the were hetrosexual, i’m arguing that all relationships should be left alone. The Mps would only get involved if the couples become open and let it interfere with their duty.
I was arguing for that old Naval logic of ‘what the eyes don’t see the heart don’t grieve.’
90 - Peter, very informative, thank you. Might I tentatively suggest that you could write the said book! I’m sure it’ll have great interest here, if not in the wider public!
84. “the SNP will fight Livingston harder, while the libdems will go after Dunfermline”
…while the Tories concentrate on winning the Glasgow Cathcart seat they held (at Westminster level) until 1979
Lorcan
I was thining the exact same.
86.”thanks Andrea; in case it all sounds rather Tory I should say that in past years I have tried to get Labour MPs David Miliband and Graham Allen to play …”
Some days ago Peter posted the composition of the all-party cricket committee (and team):
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm/cmparty/050411/memi204.htm
You could try to convince some of them to play.
89.”It may stop cases being taken to the EU court for discrimination ”
It won’t stop it, it’ll increase it. In the orginal ruling, the EU court ruled that the individual’s right to privacy wasn’t safeguarded. The base of the case of the 4 former military employees was that investigations by the military into their homosexuality and their subsequent sackings violated their human rights.
[90] Yes, many thanks Peter. The only point to add is that the old LCC boundary was sacrosanct as its Education Committee was to survive intact (as the ILEA) and indeed it outlasted the GLC. On the principle of flogging a willing horse, you don’t have any thoughts as to why the LCC boundary extended so much further south of the Thames than it did to the north?
93-94. No, the tories will save the moneys to pay their debts.
Interesting topic. The Tory choice is going to be very interesting. The best candidate would be Portillo but I doubt he would want the job (despite the fact he would win). I am sorry but I cannot take the prospect of Boris as Mayor of London seriously. Neither would the voting London public. Seb Coe would also be good, but again I would doubt that he wants it. Andrew Rosindell clearly wants it, but would get thrashed, when all the Monday club stuff gets rehashed. Andrew Boff has tried before so may try again, but has no profile to speak of. The interesting candidate could be Phillip Oppenheim (ex Tory MP) who owns Cubana who stills writes about politics (article about KC from him in the Standard today). He wanted to become an MP again, but his views on fox hunting (he supported the ban) made it impossible to get a seat.
87, IA, if that’s a reference to A.G.MacDonnell’s classic (and very funny) ‘The Cricket Match’ from “England Their England”, the blacksmith would surely be more suited to the village XI than to Lord M’s. But there’re more likely to be management consultants than farriers on the Kentish Weald nowadays.
Oh yes. It was the boundary for the Metropolitan Board of works and Lambeth, Camberwell and Wandsorth (because they had sparse populations) were single vestreys.
I am a little surprised that Hornsey and Tottenham were not included in 1889, but that would have expanded the MBW and probably have created a domino effect.
Governements became concerned (quickly) at the power of the LCC, which was why the 28 Boroughs were created, although they had very limited powers, being comparable to a UDC. The LCC remained the largest (in terms of population, wealthiest) and most powerful county.
In it’s latter years, under Sir Isaac Hayward it was described by Michael Foot as Frankenstein’s monster. It did need new and expanded boundaries with Middlesex remaining an anachronism as it was entireley urban except in the far west of the county.
Of course before 1889 Westminster and Tower Hamlets were Middlesex making Middlesex the county where most historic events have taken place in our nation’s history!
There is a good book on the subject, Peter: I’d had a look at it in my local library after our informative discussions a few days ago. It covers the proceedings of the Herbert Commision and the passing of the London Government Act, as well as the transitional arrangements.
Two reasons why the LCC extended further South of the Thames, I think, are because suburban devleopment in South London proceeeded faster with the spread of the railways, and the parishes that became metropolitan vestries, then boroughs, were bigger south of the river, covering what had been isolateed Kent and Surrey hamlets in medieval times. In addition, West Ham and East Ham were left outside the LCC, becoming ocunty boroughs instead: I’m not sure why.
101 - the spam filter seems to be leaking
69/67, Shirley Crabtree. One of the curious things about British professional wrestlers was how many of them (though not Shirley) have been Conservative councillors. I have my own theories about why (one of my ‘talents’ BV speculated about in 72 above!); see for example the recent obituary of ‘Judo Al’ / ‘Lord Alfred’ Hayes (Islington 1968-71)in the Times and Telegraph. Also “Bouncing” Bobby Barnes, Rex Strong the Blackpool lifeguard, Bert Royal (who resigned when local councillors were paid expenses) etc etc etc.
The LCC boundary was based on the metropolitan Board of works and Camberwell, Lambeth and Wandsworth were single vestreys. The MBW did not cross the River Lea, hence East Ham and West Ham staying outside.
By 1998 Governemnts viewed the LCC as far too powerful, it had thelargest population, the largest income and the most powers of any county and so created the 28 Met Boroughs. They were always far weaker than a MB
ILEA was an oddity. The area covered by the LCC had had unified educational management since the School Board days after 1870, there was very little support in the County of London for borough control. Other counties also were suspicous of a model which might see them losing their own LEA status to boroughs and districts, too. Sir David Eccles, the Conservative Education Minister, also supported large LEAs.
But the Herbert Commission had come down decisively on the side of giving the new boroughs more control over education, and many of the councils, especially in Middlesex, which supported the Hebert proposals were attracted by the greater powers they’d gain in education, so giving the GLC global education powers risked ruining the whole scheme. ILEA was thus invented as a stopgap by Keith Joseph when he put the Bill forward, with a Labour proposal for similar bodies for outer London boroughs being defeated. The system was supposed to be reviewed by 1970, but Tony Crosland made ILEA’s status permanent in 1965.
103 - What odds Kendo Nagasaki as London Mayor in 2008 with Grapplemania making its debut as an Olympic sport four years later?
103 - clearly Jesse Ventura was looking to Britain for his inspiration.
[105] Observer - not quite right. Although Middlesex, as a County Council, was an education authority in theory, there was a special provision called IIRC “excepted districts” which allowed the Municipal Boroughs within it to exercise the education function. By 1965 this option was pretty universally taken up.
106, unfortunately Kendo Nagasaki (Peter Thornley) is very much not a Londoner, having been discovered and raised as a protege by the late Count Bartelli (whom he famously unmasked at Hanley Town Hall in 1966)when he worked as a mechanic in the latter’s garage in the Crewe and Nantwich constituency (yes, Ancrea, Gwyneth Dunwoody’s seat!).
The scripts of American wrestling bouts have much the same ‘morality play’ good vs evil and ethnic stereotyping as the old British Saturday afternoon televised ‘contests’ did, in which the referee overlooks rather than oversees the action and self-help is all. Together with the economic backgraound of the wrestelers (often self-employed samll businessmen)I was never amazed by the right-wing tone of their political ventures, or should that be venturas ….
109.”(yes, Ancrea, Gwyneth Dunwoody’s seat!).”
Well, Robert, I could see Gwynethas a wrestler
103 - We have had a debate before on men with feminine Christian names but certainly would not want to stanf next to Mr Crabtree and call him a woman - LOL
Innocent Abroad - ” Although Middlesex, as a County Council, was an education authority in theory, there was a special provision called IIRC “excepted districts” which allowed the Municipal Boroughs within it to exercise the education function. By 1965 this option was pretty universally taken up.”
True. But (and my own recollection might be at fault here) this option did not give the relevant boroughs total discretion over educational functions, leading to friction with the county council.
OT. Am I the only one who thinks that these people are very sick?
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7962
Agreed, Andrea.
Observer @ 101 (& Peter Golds): Your info is fascinating. What’s the book you mention?
I couldn’t believe Tower Hamlets was ever in Middx; I had to look it up in Speed’s Tudor Atlas to find Peter was right!
Although I see little point in simply assigning places to one authority or another (I’d no idea there were so many recriminations over the London boroughs; and look at the problems with the (English) “regions”; is it really true that they were foisted on us by the EU? Sounds very unlikely to me), I’d have thought motorways like the M25 an excellent dividing line: better, generally, than our little rivers (wider, and crossable at fewer points) or barely existent mountains. But local feeling is unpredictable, and more important than neatness.
PS With you, Andrea @ 113; but I consider them not so much sick as insane. I’m always glad to see something, however, which will remind us all that fanatical Muslims have no monopoly on battiness; and I’m a Christian, though a bad one.
114-115. I really could not understand how someone could think about something like that with so many deaths (and many of the deads were probably practicing christians).
Btw, is the building pictured in the photo at the top of the thread the London Assembly ?
116 - “Btw, is the building pictured in the photo at the top of the thread the London Assembly ?”
Yes - it is London City Hall which has the Mayor’s offices and the Assembly facilities.
100-I think you’ll find Potters Bar was in Middlesex, and I’d think it’s as “rural” as Spelthorne.
I think (High/East/Friern) Barnet, where I occasionally live, was the only part of Herts swallowed up by the GLC. The rest of “Barnet” came from Middlesex.
117. Thanks for Book Value. To reward you, I’ve a link to an old Helen Clark’s article for you:
http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=691192
Phil, as I’m on furlough for the next week can I offer an early congratulations on your superb stewardship over the last fortnight.
Have fun in my absence!
Quiet, isn’t it?
Thanks Steve. I’ll probably be off on holiday when you get back (just trying to arrange it now). Very quiet - I didn’t know the Watford party would be leafletting heavily enough to tie Jack up two nights in a row.
119 - I see another one of your favourites was in the article as well.
117 - Hideous, isn’t it?
123 - I’m not generally a basher of modern architecture: I think the design could have worked well, but it’s a shame the outer shell looks so plasticky. It’s quite disappointing close up.
Any news from Portsmouth where a by-election gain from the Conservatives would give the Lib Dems overall control of the council? Result last time: Con 2124, LD 1929, Lab 500. Labour made a mess of their nomination papers so it truly is a straight fight!
120 - Enjoy your time off, Tabbers! Eudorah and I have recently bought a cottage in Perthshire, so we’re off to Scotland for a week or so as well.
124 - Well, I am an unabashed basher of modern architecture, so I’ll say it for the both of us.
120. Tabman, Jack disappeared since your outing. And I need him tonight to ask him something.
Btw, good holiday.
122. yes. Jane Griffith was in it too. Add Candy Atherton and Chris Bryant and all the most the biggest stars of the Commons would have been there.
126, 127 - enjoy your holiday. No architectural disagreement from me on this one.
I do like modern schools of architecture, but it’s a shame the GLA couldn’t just go back to County Hall, especially as the Chamber is still there.
I’m not a fan of modern of architecture, but the outside view is that bad. Though I’ve to admit that an old building would have certainly gave a better scenario. Infact I don’t like very much parliament chambers in modern buildings, they are less fascinating.
125 - Dean - will be interesting to see what happens to the Labour vote! will they tactically vote to remove a tory councillor?
132. or will they stay at home?
[125][132] A straight fight? So what happened to all those WRENs…
131.”I’m not a fan of modern of architecture, but the outside view is that bad”
“modern SCHOOLS of architecture” and “is NOT that bad”.
121 - what’s that, Jack’s been tied up at a party in Watford? What dull lives we lead in comparison
Thanks all for your good wishes; don’t be too beastly to the Scots, AH, or are you doing missionary work
I have to say County Hall looks a bit like one of those US German-style military helmets from that angle.
134
I wonder if there’ll be a recruiting boom? Perhaps they should advertise the fact in FHM.
136. Pardon my ignorance, what’s happening in Watford?
Where are you going on holiday?
Three candidates are to contest the vacant Drayton and Farlington ward by-election in Portsmouth next month.
They are David Knight (English Democrats Putting England First); Stephen Wemyss (The Conservative Party) and Patrick Whittle (Liberal Democrats).
The election will be held on Thursday September 1.
The by-election follows the death of Andrew Storey, who was the Conservative group leader on the council.
The nominations for candidates closed at 4pm yesterday (Thur August 4).
139 from Portsmouth website
138 - Watford is where Jack W lives and, judging from his absence, is busy delivering Focus leaflets. “Only the Lib Dems can beat the Jacobites here!”
139. Interesting name Wemyss. Pronounced ‘Weems’ and derived from Scottish Gaelic “Uaimh” (a cave).
141. Thanks BV, I missed that info.
142 - Lorcan - how did you know that?
144. I once worked with a Wemyss who was very proud of his family history (I’ll leave it to Jack W to tell us about the role of Elcho’s Horse in the ‘45) and I have an interset in Gaelic languages.
I am sorry to hear that Cllr Andrew Storey (of Portsmouth) has died. One is always sorry to hear of the decease of anybody, but especially of contemporaries. I remember him well, though from a long time ago.
Farlington used to be a Liberal stronghold in the 1960s - so watch out for a surprise result - esp. with no Labour candidate.
And - unless I am horribly confused - the last time the Tory candidate stood for Portsmouth City Council, he stood in St Thomas Ward in the deep south of the city - old Portsmouth, which he did not win. The Lib Dem candidate is well entrenched in Farlington & Drayton, having fought it in 2004.
‘By-election date set for Cook seat’ - http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1877672005 (The Scotsman)
“THE by-election prompted by the death of Robin Cook is expected to take place on 29 September.
The writ for the Livingston election is expected to be issued on 8 September and the vote must take place within 15 to 19 working days.”
From PA:
Liberal Democrats failed to gain overall control of Portsmouth City Council as Tories won a key by-election last night.
Candidate Stephen Wemyss defended a marginal Drayton and Farlington seat.
This leaves Liberal Democrats with 21 councillors - half the total of 42.
There was no net swing between the parties since last year’s main polls. Turnout was 43% - high for a council by-election.
Labour failed to fight the contest, which was caused by the death of Tory group leader Andrew Storey.
Latest council line-up: Lib Dem 21, C 14, Lab seven. The Lord Mayor is a Conservative.
RESULTS:
Portsmouth City - Drayton and Farlington: C 2148, Lib Dem 1973, English Democrats 102. (June 2004 - C 2124, Lib Dem 1929, Lab 500). C hold. No net swing.
[21] - Lynne Featherstone’s also had the knack of landing the right political job at the right time, such as becoming the GLA’s chair of transport just before PPP and congestion charging and now being in the Liberal Democrat Home Affairs teams as there’s another series of high profile issues.
It will be interresting to see if she can repeat the success of her high London media profile on transport issues on home affairs issues now she is an MP. The coverage (especially in the tabloids) of the alochol-related figures she’s dug up suggests quite possibly …
On the Cathcart by-election, now that Mike Watson has admitted his guilt, it is unlikely it will be held on the same day as the Livingston contest (29th Sept to coincide with the Labour party conference). Rather than the incumbent party picking the date it is set by the Presiding Officer (George Reid) and therefor less likely to be timed for party political advantage.
Cathcart could be quite interesting it contains a number of Middle Class areas (including the sole Tory ward in Glasgow) and is one of the few seats in Scotland with a large-ish Muslim population. I think Pollokshields is in the constituency and is about the only ward in Scotland where non-whites make up nearly 50% of the population. Postal votes could be interesting as the Tories would propably have lodged a complaint about them had Alan Rodger lost Maxwell Park.
141 book value. “Watford is where Jack W lives …..”
Not in my wildest nightmare would I live in Watford
BTW do I get shoe leather compensation from delivering all those fu***** foc** ………..
Have a fun day everybody, I’m off to repair the duplica ….. repair relations between George Bush and the residents of New Orleans ….. I may be some time !!
Your task for the day is to answer Lorcan @ 145 …. What happened to the said nag in the 45. ……. now where’s that spannner ….