Swapping Tony for David
April 19th, 2006-
Ben’s journey from Labour to the Tories
Long-standing PB.C regulars who followed the end of the Donald Rumsfeld thread on Sunday evening will have been shocked to read the exchanges about Ben’s move from Labour to the Tories.
For Ben was one of the earliest, and at times most prolific, contributors to the site. For a long period ahead of the May 2005 General Election his regular and lucid postings added to many people’s understanding of how the contest was being seen by Labour campaigners.
In fact he seemed to know so much and post so often that a joke developed that he was not an individual it all - Ben, it was suggested, was a composite name for a whole group of people on the Labour campaign team. No one person could have such a detailed awareness of not just individual parliamentary constituencies but council wards as well - and this extended right across the country!
Since then we have only really heard from Ben when US politics have been discussed and here he has provided extraordinary insights. My bet on Mark Warner for the White House when the price was 40/1 was as a direct result of his expert view.
Changing parties is never easy, not the least because you feel you are letting your close friends down. We get a flavour of that on the thread.
Thanks for sharing this with us Ben and I hope you don’t mind me highlighting it here. You are so well known on the site that I am sure there is great interest in your new journey.
In the meantime I am delighted that Ben has accepted an invitation to write regular guest slots on US politics.
Mike Smithson
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Not surprised to be honest - he’s been pretty dissillusioned with them for a while (and there’s hardly a fag packet between them on most things these days).
OT - anyone know when Betfair are going to pay out on the Italian elections?
Lets face it, there is little difference between the two, the opposition comes from elsewhere
Changing parties stories always tend to fascinationg when real and not out of opportunism.
Mike
Don’t worry about highlighting the issue.
I wouldn’t be surprised if my shift in direction didn’t provoke a mixture of surprise and even scepticism from long standing pb.com commentators.
I’ll be happy to post a more “in-depth” explanation at some stage for my changing political attitudes, but as things stand I’ve got very little time currently – though I will, with a little luck, rustle-up a post on the US over the weekend.
Cheers
Ben.
I’ve often thought that a lot of the (particularly younger) people who joined the Labour Party on the back of Blair winning the leadership were basically soft Tories who would have voted for Thatcher in the 1980s. So, it’s not too surprising some would bale out when the going gets tougher, although why any member of the Labour Party would ever want to join the party of John Redwood, Andrew Rosindall, Bob Spink, et al is beyond me.
5. I think Ben already said in the other thread that he would prefer delivering leaflets for Spinik and Rosindell than Abbott, Balls, Usher and Marshall-Andrews.
I’ve got to admit i was struggling to believe the two Bens were the same person!
5-6. Ah, I think the same thing could have been written by a Tory member about tories leaving for Labour in mid 90’s: “although why any member of the Conservative Party would ever want to join the party of Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Alice Mahon, et al is beyond me.”
Insert Jenny Tonge for a Libdem version.
6. Fair enough. Good luck to him.
I remember the now wife of a prominent current Portalista Tory MP. At university she defected several times from party to party. She is now said to be a Labour supporter and an influence on her husband’s own political journey from the hard right.
10. JB?
impossible to take anyone seriously who switches parties all the time. the only mp i’ve any time for is alan howarth. the rest are mostly careerists.
There are many MPs with those initials. It is one of them.
12 Bally Eric. Alan Howarth !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wonderful Irony or Pure Comedy ?!?!
13. but not many who made a journry from the hard-right.
12. the other category of MPs defecting are disillused MPs on the verge of retirement who want to create problems to their party (Brian Sedgemore, probably Emma Nicholson,…)
surely the irony is dripping from the post! rats, the lot of ‘em!
NEWSFLASH: BUSH LOSES HIS BRAIN
Karl Rove also known as “Bush’s Brain” resigns:
This follows news that:
White House press secretary Scott McClellan resigns:
http://www.itv.com/news/index_1174375.html
Betfair are still accepting bets on Prodi as Italian PM (and people are still matching them). It’s bonkers - I’ve just added 12p to my winnings over there…
18. but will they pay you when he’ll get the assignment to form a government, when he’ll swear as PM or when a motion of confidence will be passed in both Houses?
4 - Labour’s loss is our gain - Welcome aboard, Ben!
20 AHM. A defection and no Rik in sight !
21 - Indeed, Jack. Rik is occupied with the impending Tory takeover of Sutton Borough Council so I think he may be forgiven
17 - Printz
Rove hasn’t “resigned” as such he’s simply been moved from policy development to a role more closely linked with the GOP campaigning for the mid-terms in November.
It seems the new white house chief of staff Joshua Bolten is conducting a pretty comprehensive “house cleaning”.
So the older faces, such as Scott McClellan (who always seemed somewhat ‘bumbling’ in my estimation), seem to be being shifted out of the front line with newer untarnished figures emerging while powerful figures like Rove move out of the lime light, yet continue to exert their influce where it’s needed.
Had Rove been forced out it would really have been a terrible blow for Bush and Co, but, as I say, what seems to be happing is that the new White House CoS is “clearing house” while Rove is being retained – what would be interesting is if Bush succeeds in brining back Karen Hughes who has often succeeded in bring Bush back from the brink in the past.
it didnt stop him being here during the general election!! maybe he has learnt from his mistakes
Ben, can I ask a question - was there a last straw event for you or was it just a trend of events that finally did it? Glad you have joined the party, welcome on board! Cameron’s Conservatives - Everybody’s Invited! Sorry, but somebody had to say it….
22 - A H Matlock
Thanks, glad to be aboard.
I thought one of Ben’s few left wing credentials was his support for protectionism, but has now joined the free market Tories. Very bizarre, even for a ‘toady’.
Hello Ben. IIRC you’ve mentioned in the past that (a) you’re Catholic and (b) relatively socially conservative. Has your switch arisen because you feel issues of personal morality are more important than issues of economics, on which Labour and the Conservatives under DC are now very close in any case?
25 – Anthony.
It was a gradual realisation that actually began during the election campaign itself. At the same time, there where a number of instances which brought my growing concerns into sharper relief, but I’ll give a more detailed explanation later on (when I’ve got my exams out of the way
).
26 - Ben. Pleasure! I wonder if you would be good enough to email me on alastairmatlock@gmail.com when you have a free moment or two? Thanks!
22 AHM. Is that the variety of Sutton takeover much trumpeted last year !!
31 - Jack, my spies tell me a heat-seeking attack leaflet has been launched somewhere in Sutton … rumours that it was decorated with RAF roundels are completely unsubstantiated
30. Alastair, he’s new! Give him some time before entrapping him in your evil network!
31 - I don’t know yet Jack - ask me on 5th May!!
33 - I wonder how much spam he gets by advertising his email adress on a public site?
And you haven’t sent me any mail recently - too busy with your new friend Jack?
35. Tabman, sorry for having neglected you!
Pardon me, tomorrow I’ll write you something!
33 - I’m an old man, Andrea - no time to muck about!
32 Tabman. Rumours too of Rik piloting a helicopter to the Dambusters music and spraying the shoppers in Sutton High Street with rocket propelled bar charts !
35 - Lots, and it all goes directly into the ‘junk’ folder without ever cluttering my ‘inbox’. Thanks for your concern.
Where did this thread come from?!
Anyway, if you weren’t watching Luntz on Newsnight I summarised it on the previous thread.
evening all - apologies for not posting for yonks - been knee deep in an enforced job hunt
Ben - did you see the Luntz piece on Newsnight just now with the floating voters - did that come into line with a lot of your own personal feelings (I know you will put something together so a simple yes/no will suffice :D)
Welcome to the Party Ben - email Alastair, all wise Conservatives did and we never looked back!
28 – Tabman
As I say, I’ll post a detailed explanation for my actions when I get a little bit of time to put something together.
But on social issues, yes I’m a practising catholic and that does go on to inform my attitudes and values, but at the same time (by and large) it does not mean that I would want those values and attitudes imposed through legislation.
However, I certainly find that my values, when it comes to social issues, are best reflected within the conservative party even under a comparatively socially liberal leader like Cameron.
In the end though, social issues weighted less heavily on my eventual decision than other issues (though they where certainly a factor) and I promise that I will get round to providing a full explanation in the near future.
ukpaul - intriguing, wasn’t it… the comments echo much of what is aired on here about Cameron, but with a degree or two less of the cynicism… plus DCs enviro tack is working (we have an environmental sector group for the county that we run and most of the attendees have mentioned this to me, and how they would now consider voting C on the basis of environment alone….)
James M - hey, does that make me the town fool of the Conservatives on here???
Politics is a lot about perception - if the Luntz piece is anything to go by (a big if) then perception is positive for Cameron.
Watching Newsnight, love to hear that Lib Dems are angry the Conservatives are on their environmental turf - in politics turf is there to be battled over - if the Lib Dems cannot cope with that, then they might struggle more.
PS: Ming was distinctly average on the floating voter poll.
29. Ben have you actually joined the conservatives and if so do you plan to become actively involved in campaigning for the party?
Ben, you are usually very perceptive and stand your ground despite provocation.
Good luck, and if you ever come down to east London and have an hour or two for canvassing…….
luntz is the derren brown of politics and factor into the fact that he is a republican im not sure he is the most reliable source
42. James M, but he’s not very kind with non conservatives….yesterday he sent me a pic of Frau Merkel changing swimwear! But I think I deserved it considering I once sent a pic of the Member for Hampstead and Highgate in “Women in Love” (yes, that pic)
45 - Not at all, Milkybar - by all means please email as well! My objective is to build a email contact list of fellow Tories who frequent this forum.
Tabman - if you are still reading, would you kindly watch your own inbox? I am going to send a message through in the next few minutes.
I’m afraid I must wrap up for a moment folks, but…
30 – Would be happy to give you a shout, I’ll aim to shoot something off later on this evening.
41 – I saw the Luntz piece and it certainly reflected what I think many voters are thinking, but my own change of direction was informed to a great extent by the values and attitudes I hold which I came to realise where simply not compatible with the attitudes and values of the Labour Party. So in terms of a one word answer “no” but it was a very interesting segment.
47 – I have a large number of friends in the Leicester Uni CF and know folks in Rutland and Melton and in the City itself, but I hope to get actively involved, as soon as I get my exams out of the way in May
48 – Thanks, its been a while since I was down to east London so if you want some help canvassing down there next time I’m about I’d be more than happy to be of assistance.
51 Mmhhhhhhhhhhhh ….. I’ve this odd feeling that Alastair’s Tory PB e-mailers will be subject to a Midsomer Murders episode !!
“know folks in Rutland and Melton ”
that’s an interesting topic!
53 - John Nettles needs new blood after all - I never understood why people insisted on still moving to that village with its reputation….. almost as bad as Jersey was in the 80s…. you don’t think Nettles has the killers all trained up under hypnosis to act on his request, do you??
Oh, and Alastair - honoured to be invited. Does that mean I have to hand over all the incriminating photos I took of MH during the election campaign to you as well?
53 - I’m innocent!
56 - Yes, sadly. But only in the interest of your own safety…
Not that I would ever do anything mind - refer to post 57!
57 AHM. Not in Blairs Britain your not !! ….. and even if you were the compensation would only amount to a Big Mac and a minute supermarket sweep down one of Lord Sainsburys’ aisles !!
55. In Midsomer, 1/4 of the population is gay/bi/tranvestite/sexually confused, 1/4 is having an adulterous affair, 1/4 is having incestous relationships and 2/4 is too old to have sex.
The sum is too over 4/4, because some of the second catecory fall in the other categories too!
I thought it was a typical tory area…..with tory values
Alistair - don’t you live in Buckinghamshire, where most of Midsomer Murders is filmed?
I blame Bucks CC for the high Midsomer crime rate. Wouldn’t happen in a LD run county.
61 Andrea. I never realized that Alastair was too old !!
62. The tories were obsessed with “law and order” policies, because in their heartlands the crame rate is higher than Baghdad.
63. Jack, with some help, some of category 4 could end up in the other 3 categories.
Welcome Ben - I am delighted to see an informed and intelligent poster like you come over!
21 & 22 - Dont worry I am here monitoring events!
24 - DOnt be so bl**dy patronising!
31 - this myth has built that i was predicting victory every night. Unfortunately for the propagators it ISNT true. I reported what I found and was rewarded with a good result after only 18 months as PPC.
62 one who knows. True … but in a Lib Dem controlled Bucks CC, the suicide rate would rocket ! …. so either way we end up dead.
66. let’s say you sounded quite optimistic.
I once doubted your canvassing returns and you almost killed me!
68 Andrea. That’s Tory law and order for you !!
For those who are interested, I had my interview for the Priority List today. It was an interesting and somewhat challenging experience and I will have to wait until after 4th May to find out how I did.
What may play against me is that I was not prepared to go anywhere and fight in any seat that came up. There seems to be an expectation that all Priority List candidates must be prepared to fight any safe or target seat anywhere. They were slightly taken a back when I said that even if a safe seat came up in for example in Lancs I would not go for it as I had no connection with the area.
Well time will tell!
Rik - how goes Sutton?
68 - I am always optimistic in outlook but I am realistic in expectation!
70. Rik, thanks for that comment/info
70 Rik W. I think you’re quite correct, especially as you placed so much political and emotional capital into the Sutton seat and achieved a decent result. Seems some have forgotten Rule No 1 :
Voters prefer local cnadidates !! ….. and at the margin that can count considerably.
72 Rik. We’re not talking about your sex life !! ……. what about the campaign in Sutton.
75. Jack, the Midsomer comments probably puzzled him!
Jack - not just the marginals - take Folkestone as the example where you have had a popular local MP (yes, he has been popular at the local level) who came from the outside.
But more and more Folkestone and Shepway as a whole has been through the grinder, with more local action groups (and a local focused political party pretty much controlling the Folestone town council), the mood on the ground is local is needed this time to make the difference - if an outsider is foisted on the seat, they will fail in the 2 - 3 years they have to establish and get the rhythm of the area, plus they will find it hard to utilise the local networks properly…
They need a good local candidate who fits the criteria of the A list whilst being as local as a Saga call centre, and there are only one or two people who fulfil that criteria in the South Kent area….
77 Milkybar Kid. Agreed. To me, it’s just axiamatic in the case of the super marginals.
71 - Well pretty well thanks. I am not going to say too much (you never know who might be listening!) but we have canvassed about 9,000 voting intentions since January. We also now have more pledges than I had a week before polling day in the General Election.
The Lib Dems seem to be focussing their efforts in Cheam and Sutton South (split ward) and doing less than expected in other wards. Their last two leaflets have been good quality after a series of rather tatty A4 “Foci”. We continue with quality full colour leaflets. Labour seem to be doing nothing other than defending St Helier which they hold. They were beleived to be putting up a fight in Sutton Central but I have seen no evidence of this yet.
It is difficult to predict this election as postal voters are up from 14,000 at the GE to 21,000 now across the Borough (with 11,500 in Sutton & Cheam, and 9,500 in Carshalton & Wallington). A lot will depend on turnout. Our vote is definitely up but most of the marginal wards are on the Carshalton side of the borough.
61 - Vile Slander!!
62 - Yes, I do - Beaconsfield to be precise. Bucks CC under Lib Dem control???!!!
:shock: 
cannot process… must terminate!
67 - Probably true!
70, 74 - Well done, Rik. I think they’d be mad not to put you up in S&C next time after your very good result last year. As you say, time will tell.
There is no doubt that Labour are desperate to neutralise the “Dave” Cameron bandwagon in the way they did with Hague and IDS. Having watched both the Labour and Tory PPB’s it was interesting watching Luntz tonight and it simply strengthened my view that Labour has got it wrong.
Labour have made the same fundamental mistake that the tories did with the Demon eyes campaign against TB, they have attacked the new boy on the political scene. In both cases that line of attack might have worked when their own image was still relatively untarnished but it does not work when the voters are fed up and looking for an alternative.
Rik W, I think you pulled off a decent result last time, and I think the sensible course of action would be for you to be selected to fight that seat again, and finish the job.
I hope that you are selected for the Priority List, but to be frank, the odds have to be against it, given that 20% of male applicants will be selected, compared to 60% of female applicants.
Ben, what can I say? There is more joy in Heaven over the one sinner that repents, than over the 99 righteous who are saved!
79 - as we all know, never write off the Labour assault - Thanet South saw no Labour canvassing on the ground at all until two days before, and then they blitzed the place…
Good luck, am glad to not have elections this cycle (2006 is my year off from canvassing!), we get them next year, although the question is whether they will actually happen or if they will be cancelled because of Prescott’s barmy plans….
82 - Sean you are absolutely right about the odds for men and the Priority List! And I am white!
70 - Rik - best of luck with that. I think the myth of your constant predictions of victory stems from the tone of your posts - I think if a count was taken of the ratio of posters’ excalamation marks to words, you would come out fairly near the top - which tends to lend your posts a fairly upbeat tone. I have no idea if this is reflected in your everyday speech - the only person I know who uses exclamation marks so liberally in his prose also litters his converstaion with them.
This is, of course, in no way a criticism.
As to the local candidates - I think you’ve done the right thing and I hope CCO recognise that. I remember spending May 2nd 1997 (my birthday, so I took the day off) in the North Yorkshire countryside, and in the pub in which I had lunch three old codgers stood at the bar discussing the election results, in particular that of the Liberal Democrat in nearby Harrogate, defaeting the carpetbagging Norman Lamont. “What they will never understand”, said one “is that Yorkshire folk will never be keen to vote for a candidate from outside.” I’m sure much of the rest of the country is just as parochial - look at what happened to Maggie Jones in Blaenau Gwent.
This really ought to be a subject for one of the chaps at Essex university to pick up. I expect having some local connection is worth a good 500 - 1000 votes at least, and even more when the incomer is from London.
oh, and agree with all the above - second shot at a seat where you had significant improvement is just rewards, especially as you have personally invested in the local area, unlike some PPCs who only appear in the run up to an election the last 2 times and think that by moving here now they can secure a third shot - I think a third shot at the same seat is perhaps one too much….
82 Sean. They’ll be one hell of a party in Conservative heaven when Andrea and I join the party then !!
…… remember nearly all you Tories used to Jacobites once !!
87 - you know Alan Duncan has been saving his special Peter Stringfellow patented leopard print thong for the day Andrea receives his blue card
85 - Cookie - you will hardly find any candidate for anything who publicly posts of their likely defeat. It would be used against you and demoralises your own supporters. However, I did NOT come on here and predict victory night after night. I did report on my canvassing which showed a good number of people welcoming a new candidate and recalling Lady Olga with less than affection I am afraid! And at the end of it all my vote rose by 1,800.
Anyway that is now in the past and the record speaks for itself!
Whats the matter with a lot of exclamation marks????? They are far more interesting than a boring full stop!
what would it take for you, though Jack? Beyond the obvious recognition of the Jacobite claim, of course….
Making all shooting and fishing parties a legitimate tax deductable business expense to encourage more business for the estate?
87 - Jack - But surely you and Andrea are already at least fellow-travellers being integral members of my Hersham-hareem-Heaven anarcho-Tory campaign of civic loveliness
Rik W, good luck.
89. “you will hardly find any candidate for anything who publicly posts of their likely defeat”
Bob Marshall-Andrews would be able to do it!
88. Milkybar Kid,
92 - thanks!
What a friendly forum this is tonight!
Where are all the cynics and sarcastic commentators?
70- Good luck Rik, though I’m sure if the party has any sense my platitudes will prove to be irrelevant!
90 Milkybar Kid. Well that’s a solid start ……. and you forget I have a tenative toe in the clear blue water as the on-line agent and policy advisor to John O in the local election !! He’s awaiting my policy manifesto for him with some expectation.
87. Some of us still are Jack!
94. Maybe we should start a pb.com “Rik4AList” campaign!
89 - Rik - the full stop is far from boring. But for a bit of variety, how about the semi-colon? It’s an unconbentional way to end a sentence, and leaves a strange feeling of suspence;
98 - Oh no - please dont!!!
99 - gah! Suspense, even;
101 watch those suspenders Cookie;
97 Chris D.
Good luck Rik in Sutton. Ben in his journey is merely highlighting the reason the Conservative party refuses to die which is people move right as they get older and move away from Uni. Admittedely it usually happens at nearer 40 than 20 but still. It is also usually related to a specific event hence the saying a conservative is a liberal with a young daughter. For me spending 6 months in authortarian China was the defining moment.
BTW you know you are a Tory when you have a sneaking admiration for Sayeed on the Apprentice.
04- No, A true Tory will IMHO always root for the underdog. Sayeed is the perfect representation of smug, self satisfied ‘Old Toryism’!
104 - Andrew - it is surprising how many under 30s are Conservative - I’m 29, so the first GE I got to vote in was 97. There are kids 5 - 10 years younger than me who remember nothing but a Labour Government.
I think part of it is like the Conservatives in the 80s - you know nothing but the party of power, you don’t like them, you look at other alternatives if you are politically active and back the one that best fits your political schema of the time
96 - Indeed I most certainly am. My people are stirring. They are restless…
104 - Oh, and god, I hate that smug SOB - Ansell to win, imho
104 - Good Gracious, for a moment I thought you were referring to JONATHAN Sayeed
104 - thanks Andrew M - things are definitely going our way now.
I am getting a little frustrated at times with some of Cameron’s stunts but he is generally doing the right thing. I said I would begin to form an assessment at about March, and I was pleased to see that we were level pegging or slightly ahead of Labour by then. Next I want to see where he is on his anniversary in Dec this year. I wouldnt expect much progress in the polls by then. I would be content with mid to upper 30’s.
I would expect and hope for progress above 40% next spring and to sustain it. If that is not achieved then serious mutterings about Cameron would start in earnest I think.
However those who predict his imminent demise just because we are at 34-38% have no idea of the mood in the Parliamentary party or the party in the country.
The ripples of Labours loans scandal widen:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2142443,00.html
Rik - I largely agree. What we have to ask ourselves is what would the situation be with anyone else leading the party. All the other candidates had their merits, but I don’t think the country would have been interested. It’s quite possible that we might have a more surgical opposition in place that might have better explained where the government was going wrong; but I doubt that any new voters would have been prepared to consider the Conservative Party instead.
DC has (in my opinion) missed one or two opportunities to keep his counsel. But on the whole, where the Conservatives are now is beyond my wildest expectations from 10 months ago, and I credit him with most of this.
Well during the 2004 US Presidential Elections I was an avid reader of the American Dave Leip forums - still am, though my interest is in the International Section these days where most of the British issues are discussed - which is a forum Ben has, and still does, post regularly on, so I’ve been aware of his opinions and views for quite a while. I’m not 100% surprised by his decision, especially after the little exchange we had on Conservative Home, though that was after he had already resigned from Labour anyway.
I’m glad you’ve joined and I admire your courage in doing so, I don’t know what it might have been like, but I can’t imagine it being easy either to leave Labour and then join us. Good luck, hopefully you’ll be more comfortable in the Tories, though whatever happens I’ve always found your posts to be very informative. Anyway, even if you still need convincing on the politics side, I think you will find us to be far more sociable party than Labour!
Stunts are great as long as they capture the mood of the public, does anyone really believe that Cameron is going to change the perception of the environment as secondary in enough peoples minds to make it a first rank vote changing issue? Good luck to him if he wants to try, it does seem that he is attempting to replicate the single issue theme that Hague, and to an extent Howard, tried to death again and again.
Funny… this seems to me to have the hallmarks of 1993 for the Conservatives. For all the scandals (Mellor, Hamiltons, etc), the one that always stood out in my mind was Tim Yeo in December 1993 - I still remember him standing at the gate of his house with his family and the TV cameras and thought this was the start of the end.
For all the scandals linked to the Labour Party, this is the one that threatens to stand out. Interesting as well how for us the phrase “Back to Basics” was chucked at us, and today, for the first time, I heard several BBC Interviewers harking back to the “Whiter than White” line from 97, with the rearguard from Labour MPs being “yes, but if we hadn’t introduced the new rules on funding this would be all swept under the carpet” as if that was a valid excuse for what has happened.
Joe Public simply sees them as being voted into power by them, promising to move away from sleaze, and yet all they see is perceived sleaze now
Would a change in leadership even this early be enough to stop the ship from sinking?
106. Things have changed over the last twenty years, you are more likely to find an OAP rebelling and going to jail for their beliefs than a student activist!
114 - Jon - not convinced it is a single issue thing - I think it is an issue now to show the change in policy, about how he does want to change the environment, but come the next election, this will simply be one of many items we run with
It also gives us the chance to lead the debate on this - there has never been a serious debate on the environment at a national level. Both parties agree over most of the big things - the disagreements occur over the how not the what. So going to a second or third string issue is vital, as it shows depth, and shows we do care about more than just low tax and less central control
116 - Chris, completely agree on that, marches today tend to be populated by 40 to 60 somethings who want to change the status quo, feeling their rights are being unfairly eroded or they are being unfairly taxed - god, where are the radical kids these days, too busy playing X-Box or on their skateboards down the park!!!!
118. I could not get over the apathy of young people when they were interviewed in the run up to the last election. Back in the 80’s students were always “rebels looking for a cause to fight”
117- I hope you’re right. With all the good will in the world the environment is nothing more than a second rate issue at any election, although I fully admit it will have far more traction as a theme in the context of the upcoming local elections.
If we lead the debate on this issue we are likely to do so at the expense of others such as crime and health- this would be disastrous; the issues we currently lead on will quickly become forgotten terrain for us, consequently instead of adopting an attitude of slash and burn towards our past policies we need to start using our newfound ’nice’ image to justify them, more successfully than Hague or Howard, to the electorate.
Didnt Churchill swap parties?
Still the Greatest PM and Briton.
116 Some of the trouble making OAPs (long may they prosper) were student activists. They simply grew older, focussed on other things But certainly did not Fade Away.
21- Twice IIRC. The greatest wartime PM ever, yes- but undoubtedly one of the worst Chancellors of the 20th century.
I didn’t hear this line form Dave in PMQ but I see it quoted in several places. He said to Blair that he would have more luck looking for Lord Lucan riding on Shergar than finding an NHS dentist
Now that resonates.
24- I believe you can get odds of 25,000,000-1 somewhere on Elvis riding Shergar to Wimbledon and beating Lord Lucan in the singles final. Longest odds ever offered apparently.
Beats the 5,000,000-1 offered on an American lead invasion of Mars before 2020 in order to find WMD.
124 - I had a good chuckle at that myself
124 - who’s Shergar? And wasn’t Lord Lucan held hostage by the IRA before being made into dog food??
Gorgeous hits Tony when he is down with Every country needs a labour party. We no longer have one
Ben, congratulations on having your own thread. I’m sure many more will be moving to Tory considering what Blair has done to Labour and the arrival of that nice Dave Cameron. Maybe Mr Palmer might consider it.
As one who is “uninformed,” do you mind if I ask you a question?
Suppose Blair wanted to join Bush in some bombing in Iran and Dave Cameron refused to support it saying more time was needed to explore peaceful means. This matter went on and on to the end of the year, Bush’s fingers were getting itchy and not much movement was happening in Iran, but still Dave refused to back action. Would you remain loyal to the Tories?
124. One of the more interesting long odds I saw (though it wouldn’t have paid out as it turned out) was in an article in 1990 on the restoration of the East European monarchies after the collapse of communism. The shortest was 40/1 in Romania. The longest: 100,000/1 for Russia (then the Soviet Union).
Just a comment on Ben and switching parties, as I did myself from the Lib Dems to the Tories in the 1990s (not many going that way at the time!): parties tend to be made up of three sorts of people - tribalists, believers and social types. Tribalists support their party rather like a football fan and will almost never switch but may become disillusioned; social types aren’t terribly interested in the politics, so are not likely to switch either; believers are people who have their own strong set of values which may more or less align with their party, but may also move apart. Because this last type is often the most political in policy terms, they are most likely to move - and are entirely justified in doing so. They are also most likely to move again should their new party also ‘fail’ them. Parties are, after all, only a means to an end, not an end in themselves (or shouldn’t be).
4 - Having read your reasons for leaving the Labour I’m surprised you mentioned the Iraq war. Forgive me, but which party actually liberated Iraq? Also, which political figure recently came out an said he supported the Lib Dem position on the Iraq war (and which leader before him said that he wouldn’t have voted for the war considering what he knows now)? Surely if you support the Iraq war (as I do) leaving the Labour party and joining the Conservatives would be the last thing that you would do.
Also, you talk about civil liberties. I admit that ID cards may not be popular and there is still doubts about many of the other anti-terrorism measures but do you think that joining the party that ran less than a year ago on an anti-immigrant manifesto (written by one David Cameron) and had posters proclaiming ‘its not racist to talk about immigration’ is really more socially liberal than the Labour party? The conservative may claim that they have changed and on a few narrow issues (childcare) they have but if you examine the nitty gritty rather than the rhetoric they are very similar to what they were before.
It would be interesting to know how a practising Catholic - and therefore someone who can be taken to have some respect for the social teaching of the Church - can reconcile a move into the Conservative Party with that teaching. The Church is in favour, for example, of workers having the right to collective bargaining; the Tories are against. The Church stands for just war theory; the Tories back illegal and unauthorised wars against weaker countries.
Being serious about being Catholic involves a lot more than oposition to abortion. One can’t be Catholic on social issues and then not on economics or war.
I’ll let you into a secret, Human Being. Quite a lot of Conservatives are Roman Catholics.
133 - Indeed Sean. The Roman Catholic Church itself is hardly a great bastion of Socialism either - as illustrated by Pope John Paul II in his opposition to Communism. I doubt you would find many left wing activists in Italy who consider the Vatican an ally either…
Ben’s defection is the greatest blow to the Labour right since Labour’s Wembley Conference and the formation of the SDP.
It is interesting to know how a Catholic can reconcile support for the Labour Party with its Abortion policy.
A Christian gives charity and controls themself.
A Socialist takes charity and controls others.
And oh yes, there is the Abortion issue (again).
The Catholic Church is in favour of workers having the right to free collective bargaining, AS IS the Conservative Party I believe. It is just closed shops that are objectionable.
It would be a breach of commitments made under international treaties to outlaw free trade unions. (Except for national security.)
Just war/illegal war is debatable and no papal direction has been made on the subject.
PJII was very clear that a market economy was the natural order of things, but he despised free market capitalism’s commodification of human relationships and that we all have social duties. I believe “society is not the same as the state” is the phrase in vogue. And remember, God hates commies.
and there is also Gay Marriage.. Gay Foster Parents and Adoption… Undermining of Fathers… Undermining of the Family… Undermining of Church Schools… Euthanasia…
Abortion on Demand… Abortion on Demand for Children… Abortion…
Catholics tell me, Abortion is a HUGE issue. A party enabling the killing of unborn babies must be opposed.
I should have thought that when a man of Ben’s knowledge and intelligence (also of uncertain vocabulary, but nobody’s perfect) adheres to the Cons, it shows that they are making progress, no matter whether you agree with his views; or, for that matter, with David Cameron’s.
Not being funny this whole thing strokes this Ben boy’s ego a bit doesn’t it????
It is people like him who put the rest of us off politics…
135 - hilarious and spot on satire!
Doubtless some Conservatives are Catholics. As I say, I’d like to know how they reconcile their politics with the social teachings of the Church.
That is particularly pertinent when someone has decided to join a party. I am not a member of the Labour Party, but I think I could reconcile a decision to join it or the Liberal Democrats, say, with Catholic social teaching. The Conservatives under Cameron are still pledged to abolish the right to union recognition where a majority wish it, a position utterly irreconcilable with church teaching. Laborem Exercens, written by Pope John Paul II in 1981, defended the “the right of association, that is to form associations for the purpose of defending the vital interests of those employed…”.
As for abortion policy, did I miss the moment the Conservative Party pledged itself to outlaw abortion? The cross-party consensus on this reflects the public sense that it would be wrong to outlaw abortion, even though a large proportion of people think it wrong. All banning abortion would do is export the moral dilemma, much as Ireland does now.
As to war, it’s just nonsense to say that ‘just war’ theory is debatable in Catholic terms. It isn’t. If a Catholic wants to defend the invasion of Iraq in Catholic terms, that’s the pitch that he or she has to play on. Incidentally, the present Pope strongly opposed the invasion, on the grounds that it would do more harm than good and because preventive war is inherently unlawful and unjust.
In my view anyone who moves from supporting the Labour party to supporting the Tories can never really have been a serious believer in socialism or any form of social democracy in the first place. I am only too happy therefore for reactionaries like “Ben” to go off and support the Tory scumbags.
In short if you have genuinely left-wing, progressive views then you will never support an out and out capitalist party like the Tories. But quite apart from that, I am intrigued as to what triggered this conversion: Cameron has not said anything much beyond the mood music we have heard over the past few months. And I fully expect this lack of detail to continue - he is simply engaging in the same tactics as Bush did back in 2000 when we heard so much about “compassionate conservatism”. The idea is to make those who may be inclined to vote Tory anyway feel slightly better about what they are doing. To live with their consciences in other words.
I am no supporter of Tony Blair - I am appalled with many of the things this Labour Government has done; things which in my view no Tory government would dared have attempted. But I wouldn’t vote Conservative if my life depended on it.
Human, 2 things,
1) Blessed are the Peacemakers. The aim of a just war is to make a peace. Peace does not mean the “absence of war”.
2) The Catholic Church, is by definition Conservative.
If you still cannot understand, it is your problem, nobody else’s.
“Laborem Exercens, written by Pope John Paul II in 1981, defended the “the right of association, that is to form associations for the purpose of defending the vital interests of those employed…”.
Since the abolition of trade unions is not a Conservative Party policy, Human Being, I’d say your’re knocking down a straw man.
Again, I’m not aware of any tenet of Conservatism that conflicts with the Just War theory. If you’re referring specifically to Iraq, then it’s debateable either way whether that can be regarded as a just war.
Assuming for the sake of argument that Iraq was an unjust war, then I fail to see how you can regard it as acceptable to belong to a party that formed the government that led us to war in Iraq, but wrong to belong to a party that was in opposition at the time.
No, abolition of unions is not Conservative Party policy, but the abolition of the right of unions to fulfil their purpose - collective bargaining - is Conservative Party policy. And is condemned by Church teaching.
You make a better point about Iraq and I applaud Conservatives who opposed that unjust war.
Again, not so. The Conservative Party is opposed to *compelling* employers to negotiate with trade unions. That has nothing to do with the right for people to establish or belong to trade unions. You will find nothing in the official teaching of the Catholic Church which conflicts with the position of the Conservative Party on that issue.
Yes, ‘fraid so. It’s right in front of you in the quote from Laborem Exercens, particularly the words ‘for the purpose of’.
Bally if it isimpossible to take anyone seriously who switches parties all the time -what about Churchill?
The Big three parties are all the same, ‘New Labour’ Tory = ‘New Labour’ = ‘New Liberal Democrat’ = Global Capitalist = Federalist = Sleaze = Incompetance. It makes no difference if you were Labour last year and Tory this year as they are now basically the same political party under a different name!! Why don’t both ‘New Labour’ Cameron and ‘Tory’ Blair team up and set up the ‘New Labour & Conservative Party’? Their only opposition includes UKIP, BNP, English Democrats, Greens and Respect. Let’s give these other parties a chance and have the choice of either real socialism or real nationalism.
I don’t agree. There are significant and marked differences between the Conservative Party, New Labour and the Lib Dems. The country would be governed very differently in many areas such as crime, political correctness, defense, tax, transport policy etc… etc… under each of these parties.