Who wins if Prescott goes?
May 29th, 2006
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Could a contest now be a proxy vote on both Brown and Blair?
The two big current issues in UK politics - Blair’s departure date and whether Brown will succeed him - could be brought to a head if the Deputy Leader and Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott steps aside and there is a contest.
After a weekend of rising specualtion both Gordon Brown and Tony Blair have come to Prescott’s defence because it appears to be in the interest of both to avoid a contest that could reinforce divisions within the party.
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For Blair a Deputy Leadership battle could be seen as a party referendum on when he should go while for Brown it could bring a contender to the fore who could challenge him when the leadership election finally comes.
Both camps are said to be concerned that a contest would see the party turning in on itself just at a time when the Tories have got the initiative.
The problem they’ve both got is that coverage like yesterday’s pictures in the Mail of Prescott playing croquet on the lawns of his grace and favour country house, Dorneywood is very damaging. Why is Labour letting somebody continue with his big salary and massive perks when his job has all but been taken away?
But as we saw on the site on Saturday with the contribution by a Labour MP who wants to keep his identity secret there is growing pressure and speculation about who would run.
Such a contest would get massive coverage with all the candidates being asked in almost every interview whether they want Blair to step down early and if they would be backing Brown. Inevitably anti or pro Blair and Brown tags would be attached to each of the contestants and the eventual result would be interpreted in these terms.
As yet there is no betting market on the Deputy Leadership or on how long Prescott can survive. These will surely come. Meanwhile Brown retains his 0.36/1 price for next Labour leader while in the Blair departure date betting you can still get 3.1/1 on Tony lasting another 19 months.
Mike Smithson
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I don’t think there is any realistic prospect of JP going at all, barring another scandal. His going triggers an election neither Brown or Blair wants = not going to happen.
Are there any more polls expected soon, Mike?
The Conservatives win if JP goes. The only winner in the Labour party will be a functionary who gets the opportunity to increase his pension rights via an increased salary.
2 - That’s not true Ferry. JP going will probably mean the abolition of the position of Deputy Prime Minister, with the removal of all sorts of negative publicity currently associated with it.
And it will probably be a she.
2 - Why do you say its not true? Just because it is a different view from your own does not make it untrue. I agree with your view that it will probably be a she. Where we differ is whether the publicity will be negative or positive.
The only winner in the Labour party will be a functionary who gets the opportunity to increase his pension rights via an increased salary.
Is Deputy Leader a salaried position?
Does anyone have an online link to the Labour Party constitution?
I can’t see what is wrong with JP playing croquet. The govt would work better if TB and GB played more croquet, and intervered less with the rest of us.
IIRC Callaghan never had a Deputy PM, nor did Wilson once he’d finally managed to get rid of George Brown… of course, the Party Constitution was different in those long-ago days (we used to have proper summers, too
).
The key point is that, as Mike says, both Gordon Brown and Tony Blair have come to Prescott’s defence - if it wasn’t for the fact that he is so useful to both men, Prescott would’ve gone long ago. If he does go, I’ve no doubt that the post of Deputy PM would be abolished in name as it has been in fact. In those circumstances it would seem (at least to me, but I haven’t been a Labour Party member since Thatcher’s day) to be in Labour’s interests for Gordon to stand in for Tony at PMQs and for either Margaret Beckett (”back to the future”) or, my own dark horse, Hilary Armstrong, to take the Party job on a caretaker basis for the rest of Tony’s term, however long that is…
The Dorneywood croquet business is truly appalling news management but no more - no one is suggesting that Dorneywood be sold off, are they? And if anyone thinks that a Cameron government - even with a three-figure majority - would abolish MPs final salary pensions they must be very young indeed… it won’t even be in the next Tory (or Lib Dem) manifesto.
Looking at the Cabinet list for October 1964, George Brown is designated “First Secretary of State and Minister for Economic Affairs” He is listed as No 2 in the Cabinet but not referred to as DPM.
He retained this title upon the formation of the 1966 Government.
After his 1968 resignation he remained Deputy Leader of the Labour Party until the 1970 General election, when he lost his seat and was therefore ineleigible for re-election to the postby the PLP.
An interesting point would have been if Harold Wilson had won the 1970 election and GB retained Belper. Would he have continued as deputy Leader and would he have gone back into the Cabinet?
We will never know!
5 - For the purposes of assessing pension yes
Bit tangential/sorry if this has previously been covered.
Although it looks like a very grainy picture taken at long range.
What were the security services doing ?
AQ or a similarly minded organisation could have preempted
this debate given such an opportunity.
Re the debate, if I were a Labour activist I would be howling to see him gone, he’s long been held as a figure of contempt and amusement for Conservative & LibDem activists, but that was no cause for concern.
He’s now seen in that light by the great British public and that’s a far more worrying development.
10 - how does that work then?
11 - Maybe the Security services don’t see him as a high risk target?
[11] Oh, if it was a paparazzi job it can be shrugged off as intrusion of privacy, like that holiday snap of Frau Merkel…
Prescott’s long been seen as the link back to Old Labour, and the chief arbiter between old and new. If he isn’t taken seriously be either, then he has big problems. But out of the list of possible replacements, they sound uncompromisingly ‘new’ to a woman (or possibly man) Is there anyone of a similar mould who could replace him?
8.”Hilary Armstrong, to take the Party job on a caretaker basis for the rest of Tony’s term,
”
Innocent Abroad, do you have a secret plan to self-destroy Labour?
14 How the photos at Dorney were taken is interesting. I didn’t read the paper. Did the Mail say anything about where they came from.
As an amateur with a camera, they do not appear, from the photographic angles, to have been taken form an elevated position from long distance and my guess is that the house is well surrounded with hedges and trees, so it unlikely to be a long distance ground shot.
So that only leaves someone in the Prescott party using a low resolution camera?
If so that in turn that reinforces the impression that this government has so pissed off the civil service that quite a significant number of them are actively looking for damaging material while the senior mandarins, even in the Treasury, are starting to think of a regime change to blue for the first time in ages and ages.
[16] No, Tony Blair’s doing fine without my help
12 - why not try doing some of your own research?
Morning Wonkers …… according to todays “Torygraph” the “A” listers are not exactly falling over themselves to fill vacancies including such plums as South Northants and Folkestone. The deadline for applications has also been extended for “A” listers to show their political six packs to salivating selection committees.
……………………………
Following yesterdays revealation about the Hamiltons World Cup Song and the resultant collapse in Tory support, I have had the pleasure in seeing the video (nasty) of the dirge. My word Tories …. abandon all hope … all is lost !!!!
……………………………..
BTW if you’re in the Herts/Bucks garden centre area later this morning and see a harrassed Scot giving a fair impression of a cross between an army of triffids and Kew gardens .. say hi !! as a man and his wallet are being divorced.
19 - See 6.
Are you talking about their parliamentary pension (i presume not since i don’t see how a position which, if salaried, is certainly not funded by the state, would have any bearing on that) or a Labour party pension?
Andrea - Surely you can help with 6. I’ve long given up trying to find the bloody thing
20. “Morning Wonkers …… according to todays “Torygraph” the “A” listers are not exactly falling over themselves to fill vacancies including such plums as South Northants and Folkestone. The deadline for applications has also been extended for “A” listers to show their political six packs to salivating selection committees”
Jack, things aren’t going according to plans, aren’t they?
23 Andrea. I’m sure it’s teething troubles …… get the denture fixant out !
22. John, apart the mythical Clause 4, I’m having troubles to find the whole text. Even Labour website seems to have online just Clause 4.
24. They think just about themself….they probably won’t win Lewes and Colchester next time, but they need someone who will work the seats for long-term.
25 - I know…but if anyone can triumph over adversity it’s our masetro from Milan
27. John, I back down….I’m “uninformed” today!
but you can probably find it on Ebay autographed by Mandelson’s dog, Bobbie.
22,25 - thanks for the effort. Not much we can do until the Labour Party come into the twentieth century. I’ll just have to remain misinformed about what on earth the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is for
There’s an element of snobbery in the coverage of Prescott which gives him some sympathy in the party. None of us work 24 hours a day - if you follow me round with a camera, you’ll sometimes get a shot where I’m asleep, or doing something unphotogenic like eating spaghetti bolognese, or indeed playing a game of some kind. I don’t play croquet, but I’d be unembarrassed to do so, whether or not I were Deputy Prime Minister and had the house that comes with it.
So why is it supposed to be especially shocking that Prescott plays croquet rather than, say, have a drink in his local? Because, the Mail implies, it’s supposed to be incongruous that a bloke like Prescott is in a grand house doing something that gents do. One can hold the view that a Deputy PM shouldn’t have a house and croquet lawn to use, or the view that another Deputy PM would be better at the job, though I don’t myself necessarily agree (I don’t comment in public on people). But I can’t see a fair case for saying that if he’s Deputy PM he shouldn’t sometimes use the leiusre facilities that go with it. Wouldn’t you?
The political point here is that many Labour MPs feel similarly about the coverage, and it makes a forced challenge unlikely.
27/28/29 John O/Andrea/alex. Anyone tried the Keele site ?
See you all later, Amazon rain forest here we come !!
Alex at 29: Sorry, genuinely haven’t understood the question. Don’t all parties have deputy leaders (William Hague is the Tory deputy, I believe?), and all countries deputy PMs? There has to be *some* arrangement for when the leader is unavailable. In addition, on the deputy PM side, IIRC 8 of the 20-odd Cabinet committees are chaired by the deputy PM, about the same number as the PM.
30 - I think the “outrage” was caused by the croquet taking place at mid-afternoon on a Thursday.
32 - I just want to know what are the perks/rewards that come with being Deputy Leader of the Labour party.
31. Jack, I can’t see it there too.
33 (con) - there is no constitutional position of Deputy PM in the UK. Sometimes we have one, sometimes we don’t.
35. same thing here…now we’ve 2 Deputy PMs (but they hold other portofolios too)
Andrea
you may be interested in this
http://www.liberalreview.com/blogs/apollo/clare_4_ming
for your Clare Short file
30. Perhaps people would be less annoyed by Prescott’s activities if he hadn’t spent so much time playing class politics in the past. Attacking ‘privilege’ and then blatantly indulging in it yourself is hardly likely to generate much sympathy among the wider public, regardless of what other (no doubt equally hypocritical) Labour MPs may think. His behaviour towards women - and the minimal sanctions imposed as a result of it - likewise smack of double standards in the supposedly ‘politically correct party’.
33/35: No, I think the Thursday afternoon stuff was just an excuse for the story - the paper hasn’t questioned the claim that it was a late lunch break for a discussion that had run on. We don’t have a constitution so there is no constitutional role for deputy PM (or indeed for PM, so far as I know?), but there has nearly always been one for the last 60 years at least, see
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,1785038,00.html
Being deputy leader of the party doesn’t have any perks that I know of, unless you count sometimes standing in as chair of the NEC as a perk.
Formally the job is simply to deputise as needed, but in practice the deputy often takes on the role of liaising with party members in a more partisan way than the PM can do (one sees a similar pattern in the US, where vice-presidential candidates tend to be more partisan than their bosses). The choice of deputy also gives the membership a chance to express a preference on things like political direction, gender balance, and individual appeal. Unlike the Conservatives and (I think) the LibDems, the post is elected, by the same electoral college system.
37. Peter, troubles for Ming! He got Clare’s support! In the tory leadership race, she wanted Ken to win.
40 :LOL:
[39] Nick, ISTR the Lib Dems elect their Deputy on an MPs-only ballot… we’ll all forgive you any outbreak of green eye, I’m sure
39 “We don’t have a constitution”… Suddenly a lot of NuLab policy is beginning to make sense! Why worry about habeas corpus, right to trial by jury or the presumption of innocence if you don’t acknowledge them as constitutional rights?
On the PM issue: our (uncodified) constitution does definitely include the role of PM. It is a more recent convention that the PM should be drawn from the HoC and the precise definition of the role is hard to pin down, but by convention the role certainly exists…
39 - Not for large parts
This whole debate started, i somewhat regret, from Ferry’s post which implied that Deputy Leader of the Labour Party was a post of no real importance, but plenty of perks for the office holder. I assumed, obviously it seems wrongly, that he was confusing the Deputy Leader of the Labour party with the post of Deputy Prime Minister.
Deputy leader has always been a far more important position in the Labour Party than in the Conservative party. This is obviously reflected in the fact that it is an elected position in Labour, so the leader has no control over it, and can therefore serve as a focus for discontent with the leadership. This was most obviously apparent in the eighties when many people believe the Labour Party would have ceased to exist had Hattersley not scraped past Tony Benn in 1983.
But i’m still no closer to finding out how the post boosts the holder’s pension…
43 -
Hopefully Prescott will stay on. I don´t like those photos but it is not a big issue.
Which Conservatives play croquet and when?
I see Matthew Taylor has now admitted to an affair as well - albeit a ‘conventional’ one. How about a name change to the ‘Libertine Democrats’?
47. No surprise, I think. He had the reputation of someone who enjoys women quite enough. And then I think he’s not married, so it’s the women’s problem!
According to onservativeHome, Telford and Oxford West and Abingdon got just 2 applications for tory selection: only one application from an A-lister and one from a local candidate.
Oh, dear!
47 Aren´t affairs only interesting when the Party concerned makes a big fuss about victorian values und so weiter?
I suppose it is fair enough to bring up Prescott’s previous jokes about Tories. But no one has sought to make capital out of recent conservative stories. Of course, if you think they are fair game, we might start.
First Gordon Brown would benefit because Blair would be weakened even more and then, ultimately, the Conservatives would benefit with Brown against Cameron…I think.
51. It could depend on who will win the DPM contest.
52 - Deputy Leader, not Deputy PM
53. Ok, ok!
[46] Ford wonders which tories play croquet. My researches suggest that no MPs have a croquet handicap lower than 10, so there are no ’serious’ (or tournament) players.
Who’s had a casual game? No idea. Does it matter?
54 - It’s a distinction that needs nailing to the ground if the debate is to have any meaning
This thing about Prescott playing croquet is significant in the eyes of some in the media because you just don’t expect someone like Prescott (a ‘tough’, former left-wing union activist, who is seen by some as being more old Labour - and who sounds off about traditional ‘Toff’ behaviour) in the gardens of a big, posh house in the country playing croquet (when he was technically in charge of the country with Blair zooming of the Washington again).
58 - But then as Nye Bevan is once reported to have commented, “Nothing is too good for the working class…and their representatives”
6, 22, 25 - The Constitution is on the password protected members section of the Labour site; it is actually called Rule Book 2006. I don’t think there is any harm copying the parts relating to the Deputy Leader on here considering they were re-printed in the Guardian last week:
“1A Leader and deputy leader
(a) There shall be a leader and deputy leader of the party who shall, ex-officio, be leader and deputy leader of the PLP.
(b) The leader and deputy leader of the party shall be elected or re-elected from among Commons members of the PLP in accordance with procedural rule 4B.2, at a party conference convened in accordance
with clause VI of these rules. In respect to the election of the leader and deputy leader, the standing orders of the PLP shall
always automatically be brought into line with these rules.”
“4B.2 Election of leader and deputy leader
4B.2a The leader and deputy leader shall be elected separately in accordance with rule 4B.2c below, unless 4B.2e applies.
4B.2b Nomination (i) In the case of a vacancy for leader or
deputy leader, each nomination must be supported by 12.5 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this
threshold shall be null and void.
(ii) Where there is no vacancy, nominations shall be sought each year prior to the annual session of party conference. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the
Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this
threshold shall be null and void.
(iii) Affiliated organisations, CLPs and Labour Members of the European Parliament may also nominate for each of the offices of leader and deputy leader. All nominees must be Commons
members of the PLP.
(iv) Nominees shall inform the General Secretary in writing of the acceptance or otherwise of their nomination at least two clear weeks before the commencement of the procedures for voting laid out in 4B.2c. Unless written consent to nomination is received,
nominations shall be rendered null and void.
(v) Valid nominations shall be printed in the final agenda for party conference, together with the names of the nominating organisations and Commons members of the PLP supporting the nominations. In the case of a vacancy under 4B.2e this
information shall be included with the documentation circulated with any ballot.
(vi) Nominees who do not attend the relevant party conference shall be deemed to have withdrawn their nominations, unless they send to the secretary – on or before the day on which the conference opens – an explanation in writing of their absence satisfactory to the CAC.
4B.2c Voting
(i) Voting in the election of leader and deputy leader shall take place so that the results are declared at an annual session of party conference; except in the case of a vacancy occurring under
4B.2(e) of this rule when the timetable for the ballot shall be as determined by the NEC.
(ii) Voting shall take place consecutively in three sections as follows:
Section 1 shall consist of Commons members of the PLP and members of the European PLP. Each such member shall be entitled to one vote in each ballot held under this section of the rules.
Section 2 shall consist of a vote of all eligible individual members of the party on the basis of one member one vote. This ballot shall take place on a national basis and shall be counted and recorded as an aggregate vote broken down by CLP. Eligible members shall be those currently on the national membership list who are endorsed and have not lapsed from membership.
Section 3 shall consist of those members of affiliated organisations who have indicated their support for the Labour Party and that they are not members or supporters of any other party or otherwise ineligible to be members of the Labour Party. Voting shall take place under the procedures of each affiliated organisation, but on a one-person-one-vote basis recorded by affiliated organisations and aggregated for a national total. The ballot paper shall provide for the declaration of support and eligibility required under this rule if no prior declaration has been made.
4-2 (iii) The votes of each nominee in each section shall be calculated as a percentage of the total votes cast in that section and shall then be apportioned as follows:
Section 1 (members of the Commons and European PLPs) – one third
Section 2 (individual members of the Labour Party) – one third
Section 3 (members of affiliated organisations) – one third.
(iv) The votes apportioned as provided in 4B.2c(iii) above shall be totalled and the candidate receiving more than half
of the votes so apportioned shall be declared elected. If no candidate reaches this total on the first ballot, further ballots shall be held on an elimination basis. The redistribution of
votes shall be according to preferences indicated on the ballot paper.
(v) The votes cast for each nominee in each section shall be recorded and published in a form to be determined by the NEC as soon as possible following any election.
4B.2d Timing of an election
(i) When the PLP is in opposition in the House of Commons, the election of the leader and deputy leader shall take place at each annual session of party conference.
(ii) When the PLP is in government and the leader and/ or deputy leader are prime minister and/ or in Cabinet, an election shall proceed only if requested by a majority of party conference on a card vote.
(iii) In any other circumstances an election shall only be held when a vacancy occurs, subject to 4B.2e below.
4B.2e Procedure in a vacancy
(i) When the party is in government and the party leader is prime minister and the party leader, for whatever reason,
becomes permanently unavailable, the Cabinet shall, in consultation with the NEC, appoint one of its members to serve as party leader until a ballot under these rules can be carried out.
(ii) When the party is in government and the deputy leader becomes party leader under (i) of this rule, the Cabinet may, in consultation with the NEC, appoint one of its members to serve as deputy leader until the next party conference. The Cabinet may alternatively, in consultation with the NEC, leave the post vacant until the next party conference.
(iii) When the party is in government and the deputy leader, for whatever reason, becomes permanently unavailable, the Cabinet may, in consultation with the NEC, appoint one of its members to serve as deputy leader until the next party conference. The Cabinet may
alternatively, in consultation with the NEC, leave the post vacant until the next party conference.
(iv) When the party is in opposition and the party leader, for whatever reason, becomes permanently unavailable, the deputy leader shall automatically become party leader on a pro-tem basis. The NEC shall decide whether to hold an immediate ballot as provided under 4B.2e above or to elect a new leader at the next annual session of
party conference.
(v) When the party is in opposition and theleader and deputy leader, for whatever reason, both become permanently unavailable, the NEC shall order a postal ballot as provided under 4B.2e above. In consultation with the Shadow Cabinet they may choose to appoint a member of the Shadow Cabinet to serve as party leader until the outcome of that ballot.”
58. A view that was certainly endorsed by the leaderships of the communist countries of Eastern Europe. Prescott reminds me a great deal of one of those characters.
30-Nick Palmer
‘There’s an element of snobbery in the coverage of Prescott which gives him some sympathy in the party.’
Please,please stop using this tired old ridiculous excuse,every time Prescott is ctitised or his role questioned whether it be by Simon Jenkins or anybody else ‘its an element of snobbery’.
You must be one of the few people,even in your party, that is unable to see that Prescott has a non job, which most people couldn’t care less about, other than the enormous cost of this sinecure to the taxpayer in terms of an inflated salary and benefits.
Even his old class warrior supporters at the Mirror were openly ridiculing him this morning. Absolutely no-one takes him seriously any more, and sadly for Nick P and other decent Labour backbenchers who no doubt work very hard for their constituents and don’t abuse their positions at public expense, he’s making you look collectively very unappealing.
55 & 62 David Kendricks makes my point. If Conservatives playing croquet does not matter, then Prescott can play too.
59. thanks
Mr Palmer you seem to be defending Prescott. Is there anything this government does that you think is wrong? Auctioning off the Hutton Report with Cherie Blair’s autograph on it?
Blair came to power telling his MPs not to be “seduced by the trappings of power.” He has personally freeloaded an estimated £1.7m of freebies, gifts and luxury holidays.
Blair and his mates appear to be only interested in themselves. That’s why Blair won’t go and this country is going downhill. Because it’s all about what Tony Blair wants, the man who thinks he can save the world by bombing other countries but can’t even control violent crime in his back yard.
That’s why I fully support George Galloway’s “assasination”
comments.
57. The pictures in the daily mail were a classic opportunity to highlight the fact that John Prescott is now without a permanent day job/department while still enjoying all the perks. It is even more unfortunate that he was photographed relaxing just hours after starting his holiday job as acting PM.
There probably is an element of snobbery in the criticism of John Prescott, but it doesn’t alter the fact that the criticism is thoroughly merited.
63. Please don’t get me wrong Ford, I don’t mind Prescott playing croquet. I hope his previously unsuspected interest in the game brings him plenty of enjoyment in his retirement.
Our John, man of the people, hero of the working classes, playing a “toffs” game is mildly amusing but largely unimportant if seen in isolation, but the main problem is that he gets paid a fortune to do nothing because his boss is now too weak to sack him.
30-Nick Palmer
By the way, were the various reports of alledged sexual harrassment by Prescott (including a report by one of your fellow MP’s wife’s),also ‘just an element of snobbery’?
RE 30, Nick as a Conservative party member I am highly relieved to hear that John Prescot is likely to stay on. He is one of our biggest asets.
As for the story, this is one of a line from some one who would have made plenty of hay had Hezza been Pictured doing it, The man is an out and out hypocryte (sic).
What is important is that bad news for Labour fills the press to the exclusion of almost everything else. I posted the following on todays other thread.
Whilst I suspect that a Conservative majority of 108 is a little optimistic, I no longer thing a conservative overall majority is out of the question.
I would be interested to know from the people who have the figures, is what happened to turnout. In our local Bentswood bi election, perviously Labour, their vote went up from last time and they were trounced on a much higher turnout. I would be interested in knowing if this is happening elsewhere.
Generally the accepted view here seems to be that tribal vote share is between 25% and 30% for both Conservative and Labour, so polling under 30 is just possible for Labour at a GE particularly if the troops are tired and disillusioned as they seem to be.
What seems realy interesting to me is that Tony Blair asked people to remember the last 9 years not just the last 9 days. Well, they havee had embaresments over all the 9 years, but those 9 days were a storm of bad stories. Thing is they have not stopped. Has the press really got the taste for Labour blood? Is the administration leaking bad news against the government? In short is a Lbour government going to look a credible option to anyone but the core support at the next GE. We don’t know. Maybe they can regain control of the news. Maybe not. If this media storm continues though then the next GE will see a conservative majority, If it doesent then we could be any where from a small majority for one, a hung parliament to a small majority for the other party.
Interesting times indeed.
70. That would be the election last week where the LibDems beat you Torons to win,wouldn’t it.
RE 71, I presume you meant you Tories?
If so yes, that was the one I was talking about, however we were 3rd last time now second. The interesting point being the way the votes went up for all three parties.
An update on the SSP soap opera
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=791512006
What a rubbish job Nick Palmer has, being obliged to defend the indefensible day after day.
59. “Voting shall take place under the procedures of each affiliated organisation, but on a one-person-one-vote basis recorded by affiliated organisations and aggregated for a national total.”
Can someone confirm. Each union has a one member one vote ballot. But can the union then cast ALL its votes for the winner (ie “block vote”)? Or does each union have to split its votes in line with the ballot result?
71
Clearly ‘Ming winning here’what an inspiration to us humble voters.
73. Oh, Gosh, Marcia. I thought it was a rumour of affairs, not women-trafficking and drag dealers!
They’re mad! Totally mad!
78 The SSP MSP’s have done a lot of work for asylum seekers but from what I have read today I think they are seeking an ayslum.
Croquet demands perfect balance. A chip on both shoulders is a great help.
77 - Drag dealing! I’ll have to be very careful when I next go out on the pull in Edinburgh!
17. The professional photographer was interviewed on the World at One today. They were taken from public land. He says that he couldn’t stop laughing for long enouugh to take a decent photo with his long lens.
74 - Mr Palmer isn’t obliged to defend the indefensible. Many of his colleagues don’t. Many of his colleagues represent the people, rather than representing those corrupted by power. It’s all to do with where ones loyalties lay.
65. Printz haven’t you realised yet that there are many Labour MPs who would be queueing up to praise Bliar et al if they were caught biting the heads off babies, or alternatively launching an illegal invasion of a foreign country which so far at a very conservative estimate has killed scores of thousands.
Leaving aside the ’snobbery’ argument about Prescott which is typical Daily Mail who continue to regard any other party than the Conservatives legitimately ‘proper’citizens and leaders of this country, I doubt they’d want them playing football either as it would cut up the grass at Dorneywood!
But as a long time Labour Party member I’m more ashamed because of the double standards of a Labour Government trying to appear holier than thou (and the Prime Minister often takes the high moral Christian stance on family values) when just like many other politicians they find themselves scrabbling about to defend their sexual weaknesses. In any office building with over 640 employees we find thieves, cheats, con men (and women) and the sexual deviant. But should the Deputy Chief Executive of a company be caught in such a compromising situation with his staff what would the reaction be? Hound him off the site, curtail his expense account and leave him in destitution? No he’d probably get a golden handshake and a pension worth twice his annual salary. Why? Because in the private sector just as in the puiblic the hypocrisy continues. And because the second in command often knows more about what the boss really thinks and does than many others. I’m glad the Labour MPs are stirring up for another election for Deputy (although let’s have another female candidate because the ’sisters’ will all flock behind Harriet) - no sooner will a challenge to this now dying on its feet regime begin than at least we as party members can go for a replacement for the present man at the top too.
The press reports are saying today that a pro tem deputy would be appointed from the cabinet if prescott goes untill the party conference when the necessery leadership election would begin. Doesn’t that effectively put it in tony/gordons gift. A sitting pro tem incumbent would be difficult to beat in a election particularly if tey were also the sitting deputy PM.
In this circumstance I’m surprised Margeret Becketts name hasn’t been mentioned more. shes a former deputy leader (and pro tem leader), an experienced cabinet member, no leadership ambitions, gets on well with both tony/gordon and ticks the female box.
any thoughts?
85 - seems reasonable, although I expect Blair will try to resist losing Prescott as it would put pressure on him. Also, not sacking him in a reshuffle after he’s had an affair with a civil servant, but sacking him after playing croquet would look a little daft.
IA… it’s entirely possible the next LD manifesto will commit to making MPs pension arrangements a little less lavish. We argued as much at the time the public-sector cave-in went through.
59. rat
“Section 1 (members of the Commons and European PLPs) – one third
Section 2 (individual members of the Labour Party) – one third
Section 3 (members of affiliated organisations) – one third.”
Does that mean that Jack McConnell, and the other 49 Labour Party MSPs only get one tiny little vote as ordinary members of the party? I find that amazing. Are you absolutely certain that Labour MEPs are part of the very priveleged parliamentary electoral college, but MSPs and AMs are not?
88 - I’ve not heard of MSPs and AMs getting extra voting privileges, but hadn’t thought about it either…certainly seems surprising if it’s the case.
I suppose that this is going to be the first Labour leadership contest since 1995, and the first devolved parliamentarians were only elected in 1999. Is this an oversight that may cause problems for the Scottish and Welsh parties?
… meant 1994
Presumably there’s something of a precedent with the GLA.
81 That is interesting. Thanks.
The security people didn’t do very well then. No one should have been able to take a clear shot like that (with a camera now but…..) in such a security conscious area like Dorney.
Perhaps it is still evidence that the Civil Service is pissed off in that the Special Branch (as was) let this happen.
“Yes, sir, that is public land over there, and we cannot remove you from it and if you look a little to your right you will see clearly how important it is to have security here for such, er hum, vital ministers as the DPM.
I’ve been studying the pictures from Dorneywood and the question raised of ‘who wins if Prescott leaves’. Whilst not an expert on the rules of croquet it surely depends on the nature of the leaving. If JP simply downs mallet(?)in a ‘bit of a strop’ then the opposition triumphs. If it’s a case of rain stops play then that’s differant.
The speculation that Prescott has got some sort of hold over Blair or knows something is causing a bit of gossip on the net.
I’ve even read speculation that Prescott knows something about Dr Kelly’s death. This is all idol made-up gossip, but shows the contempt for this government.
Unfortunately even wild speculation can have a ring of truth about it given the level of trust with Blair and his circle.
A Zogby poll suggested half of New Yorkers thought their government at least “let” 9/11 happen.
There is something very dangerous about this gap that is opening up between government and the people, where so many citizens don’t trust the people who are supposed to be serving them.
Ultimately this could lead to serious civil unrest unless something is done about it.
Perhaps it is inevitable given the flaws in the electoral system and the two party states of USA and UK.
95 - ofcourse, some people will never trust the country’s leaders as it’s more fun to condemn them.
The idea of civil unrest is ridiculous.
95. Are you suggesting a revolution?! Where’s my Che Guevara t-shirt?! (always comes out when there is talk of such things).
I think mass apathy and non-involvement is more likely; “civil disillusionment” rather than “civil unrest”. Civil unrest would require engagement with the political system (which people are becoming incresingly disinterested in), disillusionment just requires people to look scornfully at the news, shake their head and go back to whatever they were doing.
Tristoph Back to the revision, its all Ok. its a blue revolution coming.
At least Printz provides part of the answer to the question of what happened to those released mentally ill foreign prisoners. On the other hand what we find on the web could all be true…..
Is that the sound of a gruff Glaswegian outside the front door?
98. Ah, good! I can start a counter revolution!
Anyway, I thought it was a green revolution? Remember; vote blue, go green!
Or has it faded a little, is it going to be terquoise now?
96 - Maybe, but have you ever known distrust to be this high? In the past heads in government would roll if they were caught out. The seriousness of what has happened over Iraq is unprecedented for a governmenr where nobody accepted responsibility.
Every week government representatives are blatently telling lies. I recently heard one claim Blair did the right thing in sacking Charles Clarke for example. This is after all those reports that Clarke offerered to resign twice and Blair refused. We are in unchartered territory in the scale of the distrust and the hollowness the people hear in their government’s words.
A lot of people HATED Thatcher and all she stood for, but I think they generally believed what she said. It is not sustainable to have governments where over half the people do not believe a word they are told or where half believe their leaders were complicit in waging terrorism against their own people. People will resort to other means or to extremism, if they believe democracy has become an illusion.
101 - as Tistoph noted, though, people are apathetic. To many, government is an irrelevance to them and, while they don’t trust the government or politicians as a whole, they don’t care that much. They’ve got a job, they’re safe, and that’s all most people care about, so I don’t envisage any unrest.
Back on topic - does anyone seriously think Prescott can survive? Labour backbenchers were all over the media today openly calling for him to go. Not even in code. I think he’s toast.
I heard some fantastic news on The world at one (Radio 4, of course)
1. Prescot beat everything else to be the main leading item, and is second on the BBC 1 TV news.
2. The Sun editor said the press would keep watching him like a hawk until he went.
3. Apparently he can’t be unseated as deputy leader of Labour wih out a vote at congference.
This is all fantastic news for the Conservative party and to a lesser extent the Lib Dems.
Leaving asside any arguments about whether Two jags, 3 Houses should or should not have been playing croquet, (Arguably it is much better than the alternatives, running the country or abusing his position) the longer he stays the longer Labour get bad press.
So if he does not go, then it is very bad for Labour. Unfortunately I don’t think it is fantastic for Labour if he goes either.
RE 103, If he were a normal minister no, he would have gone by now. However note that he is difficult to get rid of as deputy leader. He can’t be sacked by Tony Blair nor apparently the PLP.
I hope he stays! but only because he is damaging Labour.
The critics are all pushing the same line (and pushing it strongly) - that Prescott is a man who would always put the good of the Labour Party over the good of himself. Much more of it and i think he will crack and go of his own accord.
101 - I agree, but a lot are not apathetic. When people start to believe that their leaders are actually traitors some are going to feel morally justified, as Galloway might put it, or even duty bound to act outside the law to do something about it. Do a search for “9/11 truth” or look at this poll:
http://media.fastclick.net/w/pc.cgi?mid=101292&sid=18026.
Are the many thousands of American based people who start 9/11 sceptical internet sites and the people who subscribe to 9/11 sceptical forums, apathetic? Are half of New Yorkers apathetic because according to Zogby they suspect that their own leaders let 9/11 happen? It is more than a little worrying that so many people regard their own leaders as the enemy.
That is not their fault. That is a problem Bush has created. He had near 90% approval immediately after 9/11. He has blown it, not because the people are apathetic or think the government is irrelevant, but because he has not acted or been seen to act honourably and the same applies to Blair.
Surely you could have what seems like an elected dictatorship, when the majority of the people strongly resent those that are in power and think they are not even on their side. At least that is how many must see it. It doesn’t matter what we think. What matters is what those that could snap and take matters into their own hands think.
Sorry this is the Zogby poll link:
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855
If Ming really said there was to be no campaigning before the writ was moved in Bromley (a couple of articles ago), that’s really worrying. What planet is he on? Has he no idea what happened in previous Lib Dem by-election victories, or did he disapprove? And why on earth shouldn’t there be campaigning before the writ is moved? It sounds incredibly old-fashioned.
Lib Dem campaigns will be furious. Whether they’ll be allowed to campaign anyway, (’no no, nothing to do with the by-election, we just happen to be delivering a hundred thousand leaflets by pure coincidence) or will try somehow to get away with it despite Ming, we shall see. The opportunity for boosting morale and teaching local campaigners some tricks, not to mention a potential extra MP with three or four years to turn a seat before hte next general election, is far too good to be missed on the basis of some old-fasioned pointless scruple. I’m beginning to be glad I never quite felt confident enough to bet on Ming surviving as Lib Dem leader, although it will be some time before any contest arises, and surely the odds are still against it in his first couple of years.
As for Prescott, it seems the Labour party has got a real problem on this one. I’d always thought Blair could sack Prescott. Certainly he can sack him as a minister. I thought he’d have to go when he punched someone in the 2001 campaign. His position has only really got more obviously embarrassing than before, rather than actually deteriorating much in substance.
You’re losing it, Printz.
In particular, the Bromley by-election is a chance for the Lib Dems to take some shine off Cameron. Obviously it’s a tall order for Lib Dems to take a seat off Tories at the moment. However, with strong Lib Dem campaign the Labour vote will surely collapse to perhaps a little over 5%. Bromley has presumably never before been worked hard by Lib Dems, and some of those Tory voters may be anti-Blair voters who may be persuadable. So it looks a reasonable outside chance. It’d do wonders for Ming Campbell and damage to Cameron. They’ve surely got to go for it - unless, just possibly, they’re going for the Welsh seats instead? Those look tougher as they’re held by a left-wing independent, evidently with a formidable campaign machine in the last general at least.
I’m sure the ming thing was slip of the tounge. The Bromley HQ is up and running. We all got an email with details from cowley street on friday. Ming will have ment the funeral (and I would absolutely agree with that.) storm in a tea cup.
begining to agree about prescott. It is not a slow news day with the earth quake and british soliders dead in iraq and yet prescott is the lead item for much of the media. “serious” news outlets like PM on radio 4 could barely conceal there contempt. however 86 sets out good reasons why he can’t just be sacked. hes going to have to go but it will be drawn out and messy. Worst of both worlds for labour
110 - Need I quote Kipling?
109. Gavin, yes, he said it. It probably meant before the funeral, but he said before the writ is moved.
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=767442006
Theoretically Prescott could leave the Government and stay as Deputy Leader of the Labour Party but I suppose if he was pushed out as DPM by opinion in the PLP he would likely flounce out of the Deputy Leader’s post as well.
107 - But all people do is talk. Action is one step further, which very few are willing to take, and if people did try to do something that Galloway would condone to the country’s leaders, nearly everyone would be appalled at it.
112 - As you say, him leaving would be drawn out and messy, so I guess him staying leaves some hope it will all die down. Home Office will probably provide some more cover…
It would be great if before the summer recess some decision regarding the departure of John Prescott as DPM by the Parliamentary Labour Party was made and left Party Conference at least the opportunity to discuss something in which they felt they had a say (which never normally happens at Party Conference at present) by holding an election for Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. At least speeches from the podium would be offering something beyond the bland Blairite pronouncement of “Crisis- what crisis?”. It might also allow the Party to try and restore some sort of conscience and belief in political ideas under a Gordon Brown leadership.
Interestingly your Betting site for “Leader changes - next Labour Leader” seems to list some rather dubious characters - is Peter Tatchell even a member? but surely there is a name missing if all bets are open - what odds Nick Palmer MP??????
*116…”appalled by it.”
117. “is Peter Tatchell even a member?”
He’s a Green member now!
As I mentioned the other day, if Prezza goes as deputy leader, it is good for Gordon. A bloody ballot for the deputyship will eliminate many a potential challenger to Gordon for the leadership. And if Harman emerged, and I am sure she would, she is Brownite through and through…
120 - it may lead, though, to massive splits within the party and if Blair endorsed a Blairite candidate, it would challenge Brown to openly endorse a Brownite one, and he’s not been openly confrontional so far.
I disagree that it would be in Brown’s interest not to have a Deputy leader election. Brown shouldn’t shore up Prescott, only make a pretence to. We know that he has missed attempts before to strike - he shouldn’t duck it again. An election for Deputy would immediately raise questions about when Blair is going, be a proxy for anti-Blair feeling and result in a deputy less loyal or less easy to dupe than Prescott.
The Labour Party is ripping itself apart because of Blair’s vanity. This is just what the Conservatives need - neither a decisive departure by Blair, nor a definite stay. Instead we will see constant infighting, the gradual weakening of Blair, the continuing diminishing of Brown’s reputation, Cameron further establishing himself. Cheers, Tony.
Re. the Hamiltons’ World Cup song, I don’t think it’s anywhere nearly as bad as the ‘official’ song by Embrace (which just sounds like a po-faced version of Mitch Benn’s wonderful satirical piece, ‘Everything sounds like Coldplay now’).
The best song for this year’s World Cup, though, must be Sham 69’s ‘Come on England’, not least because the chorus, ‘We’re ganna win the cap’ can easily be changed to We’re gaoing dahn the pab’
The best ever official World Cup song was New Order’s World In Motion, while the best ever unofficial World Cup song was Vindaloo.
Watch out for ‘Mike Bassett - England Manager’ on Channel 5 this week. Its satire on how the FA conducts itself is even more timely after Steve McClaren (a real-life Mike Bassett) and the circumstances surrounding his appointment.
Brown 4 DPM?
In 12 months Blair Stands Down…
Brown takes over. Coronation election for “acting leader” follows.
Orderly transition.
Perhaps?
88 - It seems that way. Labour Peer’s don’t seem to get and extra vote either. As I say the previous post was just copy pasted from the 2006 Rule Book.
I can understand why A listers would not want to fight Oxford West and Abingdon. Fighting against an entrenched lib dem is not fun for anyone. However, Northamptonshire South and Folkstone seem to be fairly inexplicable! Lets not forget that some plum marginals, such as High Peak and
other knife-edge marginals such as Portsmouth have already selected candidates before the A list was imposed.
Fwiw, I have some sympathy with Nick Palmer’s view that quite a lot of the fuss about Prescott - certainly this silly croquet story - is fuelled by snobbery.
As I’ve argued here - http://oxfordliberal.blogspot.com/2006/05/beware-cult-of-leadership.html - I think Prezza should have invoked the spirit of Sir Francis Drake in proving that you can both defend your country, and enjoy lawn sports…
123,C’mon,lets all clamour for a re-release of Fat Les’s ‘Vindaloo’-fan-bloody-tastic!!!!!!
It seems that support for Prescott is thin on the ground to say the least, apart from Nick Palmer the only other support has been from Paul Clark his Parliamentary Private Bagcarrier.
According to media reports Prescott is seen as a major liability especially amongst women voters, what a surprise.
From a purely partisan view the longer he stays the better,just a question of time before the next embarrasement.
117 - lol, PJ: if I stood for leader I’m sure printz would call me a stalking sheep.
Alex: being deputy leader of the party does nothing for your income or pension, so far as I know.
Most of the responses to my post about snobbery have replied that it was a damaging story for Labour in the country, which may or may not be the case, but doesn’t address my point. Replace either the activity or the name: Jack Straw playing croquet, or John Prescott having a pint in a pub. Would it make the front page of the Mail? No.
Innocent Abroad: oops, sorry! Who is the LD deputy leader at the moment? I should know but I don’t.
Anna: we have a number of well-established principles like habeas corpus which have been reinforced by centuries of case law, but the weakness of the position is that we don’t have a written constitution, which means that in principle Parliament can change anything with a majority of 1 in both Houses. There is nothing especially New Labour about this - it’s simply how Britain works. It’s LibDem policy to change this, and in my opinion they’re quite possible right. The downside, though, is that you then pass interpretation of the Constitution to the judges, with the results we’ve seen with the ECHR - hijackers being entitled to asylum etc. (Did you make the Oxford Union debate, BTW?)
printz: no, the Government isn’t doing anything which I think is very wrong, though I’d do a few things a bit differently. You seem to have trouble with believing this, and when you periodically believe it you get really angry about it. But it’s not a bad thing to have the Labour core vote represented here - we’re still a third of the country. The media are at present quite hostile to Labour, as others who like it that way have observed, and this produces front pages like the croquet story. The stories are often exaggerated or one-sided, and I try to limit the damage by pointing it out when this happens. You should be used to it by now, old chap.
As was said earlier, Prescott has played class warfare politics in the past whenever it suited him to do so. He can hardly complain about getting some of it back now, can he?
131-Nick Palmer
‘Most of the responses to my post about snobbery have replied that it was a damaging story for Labour in the country, which may or may not be the case, but doesn’t address my point. Replace either the activity or the name: Jack Straw playing croquet, or John Prescott having a pint in a pub. Would it make the front page of the Mail? No.’
I thought Ministers and civil servants were meant to be working in their offices mid afternoon on Thursday’s?
23-Richard. Agree, World in Motion is best ever World Cup song. The John Barnes rap is just great!
31- Nick. I asked the other evening who the Libdem Deputy was. No one seems to know. It is not listed on the BBC News website on the Libdem front bench page. Maybe there isn’t one?
134 - I thought Cable was named Deputy Lib Dem Leader not terribly long ago?
131. Nick, the photo’s made the front page of the MOS simple because it highlighted the big story of John Prescott losing his department/job while still retaining a large salary and perks. I would be questioning the judgement of John Prescott and his advisers/press officer in giving the press a photo opportunity like that. I heard the photographer being interviewed and he said he could hardly take the photo’s because he was giggling so much
In a BBC World Service interview, Cherie Blair she said the attacks on her £7,700 hair bill were a “load of fuss about trivia”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5020620.stm
How very belittling towards party members who work themselves to the bone trying to raise a few hundred pounds for their party for it to be described as “trivia.”
Like the Prescott’s croquet it IS a matter of class. It’s about certain people in power thinking that by freeloading off the rest of us it makes them superior and that’s why they have no shame in doing it. It’s all about what Tony and his freeloaders want. Unfortunately, no longer is it about what is best for Britain.
They are only out for themselves. They are out for whatever trappings of power they can get their hands on and whatever extra control they can have over us. That is why they have made such a mess of things that we will have to work until we are 68 and why we are four times more likely to be attacked in the street. That is why they are turning Britain into a police state and destroying our freedoms without making us any safer.
That is why they have ditched every Labour Party principle, from privately run hospitals and schools, to the phasing out of NHS dentists and the closure of police and fire stations, replaced by ever more pen-pushers to deal with their miles of red-tape. It is a failure that Mr Palmer is proud of, because to Blairites it is all “trivia.” Power itself is what matters.
One up to you there, AHM! I am very suprosed that Nick and DC should be so ignorant. But then, DC is just stirring things, as usual, isn´t she?
I really do not know who the Libdem Deputy is. It was Alan Beith at one time. I’ll do some more research! Thanks AH for the Cable tip. I’ll try him first. If I can’t find out I’ll start emailing Libdem MPs until someone can tell me.
When IDS was Conservative Leader I recall how some in the other parties didn’t want him removed as it was felt it helped them.
Is the same now happening with John Prescott and Ming-ids Campbell?