Sean Fear’s local election commentary
July 21st, 2006
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The Shape of Things to Come?
It is an axiom of politics in Northern Ireland, that an increase in support for Sinn Fein stimulates an increase in support for the DUP, and vice versa. In the early Eighties, electoral success for Sinn Fein was matched by success for the DUP. In the late Eighties, support for both parties declined. Since 1997, support for both parties has surged, leading them to eclipse their more moderate rivals.
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I wonder now if something similar is starting to happen in the North Eastern quarter of London, and adjacent parts of Essex. This part of London has seen growing success for two parties at the extremes of British politics; namely, the British National Party and Respect.
The BNP’s success in winning 11 seats in Barking & Dagenham, and 6 in Loughton, has received widespread publicity. Less commented on has been the fact that Respect won almost 25% of the vote, on average, across Tower Hamlets and Newham.
Its most spectacular result came in Shadwell, Labour since 1919, which it won in a landslide, unseating the Labour leader in the process. The number of council seats it won, 14, was slightly disappointing, but the fact that East London’s Muslim population is growing should enable it to win additional support in the future, provided the party does not disintegrate, as minor parties are prone to.
The BNP obviously have the potential to extend their appeal across this part of London, as last week’s by-election in a middle class part of Redbridge demonstrated.
In turn, a growing Muslim population, and hence an increased vote for Respect, could well stimulate even more white voters to vote BNP. Labour and the Conservatives could both find themselves caught in the middle, in a similar position to the centrist parties in Northern Ireland (support for the Liberal Democrats has now vanished in most of this part of London).
In principle, both parties detest each other. One is a party of the extreme left; the other a party of the extreme right. Paradoxically, like so many of their ideological ancestors, both parties have a good deal in common.
Plausible allegations of anti-semitism have been made against members of both parties; both tend to be extremely socially conservative, regarding modern Britain as decadent; and both are anti-capitalist. It is no accident that Nick Griffin forged links with extreme Islamist groups in the 1980s, and, at that time, regarded Iran as a model state.
Both parties are likely to be represented on the London Assembly, following the next round of elections in 2008.
Last night’s by-elections saw one gain and one loss each for the Conservatives and Lib Dems and one gain for Plaid Cymru.
Warwickshire CC: Wellesbourne: Con, 1112, Lib Dem 776, Lab, 227.
Stratford DC: Wellesbourne: Con 897, Lib Dem 804, Lab. 197. Two Conservative holds in very marginal seats.
Chichester DC: West Wittering. Con 868, Independent 330, Lib Dem 139, BNP 123, Lab 48. Conservative hold. Once again, UKIP have shown how inept they are at fighting local elections, by failing to contest a seat where they had previously won almost 20% of the vote.
Dover DC, Little Stour and Ashton: Con 892 and 748, Lib Dem 336 and 254, Lab 111 and 110. One Conservative hold, and one gain from the Lib Dems. This gives the Conservatives control of the council.
New Forest DC, Totton West: Lib Dem 535, Con 498, Lab 79. Lib Dem gain from Conservative.
Conwy UA, Rhos: PC 957, Con 861, Lab 221. Plaid gain from Independent. This is an excellent result for Plaid in a seat last won by the Conservatives, in a by-election last year. The absence of independent candidates, however, makes it hard to determine its significance.
Macclesfield DC, Hurdsfield: Lib Dem 500, Lab 170, Con 82, Green 45, Independent 53. An easy Lib Dem hold.
Hartlepool UA, Park: Con 468, UKIP 208, Lab 121, Lib Dem 99, BNP 68, No Description 51. An easy Conservative hold.
Sean Fear is a London Tory
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Sean spot on .I was at a party in Newbury Park last week which is in Redbridge before I returned back to Dundee. I was shocked at the way the BNP were portrayed ‘as a mainstream Party’ by a few at the party when there was a discussion about politics and the area. There seems to be a mistaken belief that the ‘white locals’ are becoming a minority in their own country and the ‘backlash is starting’ by voting BNP. The most vocal supporter was a Jewish supporter! I thought ‘no don’t go down that road and explain’…..
Sorry to make the first comment on the thread irrelevant, but my computer won’t let me post on the previous one. Mike Smithson @ 81: Have you really “always thought that Cable was a better bet than Campbell”? I remember your excoriating Kennedy, supporting Campbell, writing approvingly of Clegg for the future, switching to Huhne; but (though I must have missed many, perhaps most, posts on this site) I can’t remember your ever supporting Cable for the post of party leader. This sounds to me like false recall; for even if you can produce posts that show your Cability, remember you said “always”.
Just a coment on terminology - I think rather than “extreme left” and “extreme right” that these tags (for whatever they are worth) completely break down with these particular parties.
The BNP is a racist statist party. Respect is a combination of a vehicle for Galloway and a party based almost purely on religion.
I think that they are both seen as good ’send them a message’ parties - their very notoriety helps, since people think, “well, maybe if I vote for *them* it’ll make those buggers in power sit up”.
Having been puzzlingly accused by two constituents in separate letters this week of being an immigrant Jewish germ (the first two bits are incorrect, though I wouldn’t object to being either, dunno about the third!), I wonder if anti-semitism is rising in the wake of anti-immigrant feeling. Where I’ve come across it, it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the Middle East - people who were neo-Nazi in attitudes all the time feeling it’s now more acceptable to say that sort of thing.
That said, I’m really getting a lot of constituent feedback critical of Israel - one of the largest spontaneous postbags for some time.
1 The East of London is in for a big change though. With the coming of the Olympics, presumably the politics of the area will not be unaffected.
I’m working in Tower Hamlets now (Canary Wharf) and I find it amazing to see how the areas around are “gentrifying”. For example Shoreditch is becoming very chic and when the East London line has been extended will be perfect for Dockland commuters. If this process happens quickly then you are more likely to get concentrated support for the Tories than votes for Respect.
re 2. My first major review of the possible challengers was on December 10th 2005 where I was very positve about Cable.
When Cable came out for Ming I went wth the Scot only to change my support after his first PMQs when I felt he had not got it.
add to 6. Sometimes it easy to confuse what I want personally with what I suggest people to bet on or what I bet on myself.
Should we read anything into the sign-off on the end of Sean’s article: “Sean Fear is a London Tory”? It normally reads “London Tory activist” or somesuch. Is it a deliberate change, or just the end of the phrase getting cut off? Not intended provocatively: I’m genuinely interested.
Mike Smithson @ 7 (&6): Very true. Anyway, thanks for your comment; I hope I wasn’t offensive.
re 8. Don’t read anything into at all. Sean sent me his article and I did the picture search and composition, the page formatting and other editing on a busy Friday night train from York to Peterborough where it’s quite hard to work.
Every word I did not have to type was a blessing!!
re 9. No problem.
10. “from York to Peterborough”
You had the chance to meet the Venerable Helen! Imagine you editing Sean’s article and her popping out in front of you!
“You had the chance to meet the Venerable Helen! Imagine you editing Sean’s article and her popping out in front of you!”
Now that would give you a shock Mike!
12. Ian, think about raising your head and see this smile:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/52648958.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19390335F8FA9CA92A6CA9105B014B6204659D55AD35CA51490
Doesnt bare thinking about does it.
O/T Did anyone see that someone’s written a biography of David Cameron?
Sean Fear From your description I get a feeling of history repeating itself with the Black shirts in the East End in the 1930s. Is there anything in that impression? I don’t know the area at all these days.
Sea your comment on Rhos is a bit naughty. Surely the abscence of independet candidates makes the signifcance much clearer.
The question is why did the Tories fail to win a seat in a ward they won by 350 votes in March 2005. In Rhos the absence of independents will have helped them. As the Plaid campaign manager I was gutted when I found there was no independent or Liberal as it makes it harder for us to win in that part of the world.
Tory activists told us on the day that the ward was the best for the tories at the general election….the tory spin on this result is hilarious…trying to claim that they never thought they could win…in a ward witrh Two tory councillors
Mark the Tory activists are hardly going to tell you on the day of the election that they think it’s a poor ward for them, are they?
No-one has suggested this is anything other than an excellent result for Plaid Cymru, but given that both the Conservative vote share and raw vote have increased from the 2005 by-election it is difficult to argue it was a disaster for us. Disappointing, yes, disaster, no.
I think you’re spinning about the lack of Liberal Democrats and Independents. I would have thought that Plaid Cymru would be in a good position to pick up the “non-political” vote. I’m still offering £20 to a charity of your choice if PC win Clywd West next year.
As usual Sean’s articles are balanced and at the same time promote an intersting angle.
I don’t agree with the idea that Respect and BNP will become the alternatives to Labour in East/NE London. I particularly don’t think it’s true in the inner boroughs of Tower Hamlets and Hackney (although in Newham and Barking and Dagenham are different).
Respect will disappear from Tower Hamlets when ‘Gorgeous’ dissappears. Their vote is an anti Blair Iraq (and pro Muslim) vote and nothing else. The BNP are no longer a player in the East End and the Tories are restricted to Anna’s docklands (its actually No1 Canada Square).
I’d expect the Lib Dems to come back as the main opposition in Tower Hamlets in four years time - winning the 6 seats in Bow they shouldn’t have lost this time.
In Hackney this are gentrifying in a Bow/Islington way so extremism is unlikely to benefit.
In other outer NE London Boroughs the scope for extremists progress is related to the marginality of the Borough. In close fights (Redbridge, Waltham Forest etc) - they don’t get much of a look in - but in B&D and Newham where there is a monolithical Labour Party they will prosper (only because the mainstream parties aren’t organised).
The more interesting evidence is from Lib Dem/Tory by-elections - there’s been on the headlines another week of ‘no change’. But I’d bet most Lib Dem Parliamentarians would swap a loss in Dover for a gain in the New Forest, as they would last week in Suffolk for North Dorset.
It seems to back my hunch that in the key southern marginals the Lib Dems are holding their own against the Tories. The Tories are making substantial gains where the Lib Dems are not really contenders (although they are in second place).
Iain I am not spinning on the independents/lib dem issue. There is a view in Plaid that there are substantial numbers of voters who will never back us and we need to divide that vote for us to win. On the coast the independents are mainly Tories/ukipers or liberals ….in land they draw votes in welsh speaking communites which is of course our base.
All in all though a very good night for Plaid and a poor one for the Tories. Why did they not win against a candidate they beat comfortably a year ago?
Yet another South East Council goes blue this year with Dover being an excellent result for the Conservatives. Chichester was gained with a by-eletion and now Dover.
We must be getting something right at by-elections.
Here in the South East the sea of Conservative blue is becoming an ocean while the stream of LibDem yellow is becoming a dribble. Labour are on the verge of wipeout in the whole of the SE region. I think they have maybe three Councils left which are Oxford, Brighton and one in north Kent somewhere?
21- Oh not Oxford. It’s Nuneaton.
Well DC - there’s Eastleigh, Lewes, St Albans, Watford, Three Rivers, Cambridge, Uttlesford, Windsor and a host of authorities where the Lib Dems are without an overall majority - but are significant players.
Dover and Chichester have never been on the Lib Dem radar - yet New Forest (Lib Dem gain from Tory) are.
The Tories are mopping up ‘easy’ seats - in Dover the Lib Dems poll 12% at General elections and have never had a more than a handful of councillors on the council. In last week’s by-elections the Lib Dems picked up a previously condependent seat, in the key marginal of North Dorset this week one in the New Forest, two weeks ago in Devon.
I suspect that the next election will see more churn between the Lib Dems and Tories (although I expect the Tories to get the better of it). However there is little chance that the Tories are going to gain the 20+ seats from the Lib Dems most Tory posters think is likely at the moment. The by-elections do not suggest that.
22- Reading is the one I meant! Nuneaton is not in the SE. It’s late…
23-Dan. If not 20 then not far from it but I accept there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge before then. Electing a Government is not the same as a local Councillor in a by-election.
How much support does Respect have outside London. It seems to me that its failure to attract votes in the West Midlands, West Yorkshire, South Lancashire/Manchester and Glasgow where it should at least theoretically have a hope says much about its chances of survival as a national force.
There may well be a case that a large Respect vote would lead to a large BNP vote in these areas, but where I live at least, it’s not the same the other way round. Despite many substantial BNP votes in May, muslim voters stuck with the mainstream parties. In one respect, this makes a lot of sense: it reduces vote splitting and helps to avoid the result wanted least (while it’s probably rare that Respect and BNP candidates would stand a chance of winning the same council seat, the loss of just a few could tip the balance).
Nick at 2.I have rarely felt as angry with this Labour Government as I have over the Lebanon conflict. The Board of deputies are planning a pro-Israel march on Sunday which is their usual attempt to conflate Judaism with Israel. So the more people who throw eggs from their point of view the better. Their proof that if one is anti Israel one is anti-semititc. I must say I havent noticed any rise in anti-semitism but if as you say it has nothing to do with Isreal then it’s worrying.
I’m not surprised by your postbag on the subject. Nothing in the last nine years has made me turn away from this government more than their behaviour towards Lebanon. No country has done ,more to pick itself up after twenty five years of continuous war and destruction and rebuild itself in seven. And to far and away the most beautiful and liberal country anywhere around. I think I’ve visited most countries in the Middle East and I have never met people I like and admire more than the Lebanese.
And Kim Howells on “Today” just made me groan.
12th anniversary today of Blair winning Labour leadership.
Ironically the BBC reported it as “the most democratic process ever used by a British political party” - are they referring to the same electoral college that stuffs the boxes with millions of union votes?
Think I will go and hide in a dark room for the day and pretend it all never happened.
PS. I hope that didn’t sound personal-blaming you for the governments actions in a Printzian way-it wasn’t meant to!
27.”are they referring to the same electoral college that stuffs the boxes with millions of union votes?”
Unions used the one member one vote. And they’re an affiliated organizations.
19 at 12.37am - I seem to recall that the Lib Dems in the North West region piled everything into Burnley and Halifax when they had a couple of Council by-elections against the BNP.
In Burnley the Lib Dems went from a small group to now being the joint largest party on the Council using the momentum that they gained from keeping the BNP out of wards that they would otherwise have won.
I don’t detect anything like the same attitude or desire in the London region should a by-election in Barking come up. Perhaps they should have a chat with their friends from the North?
Andrea IIRC some unions had an internal sounding and then cast all their votes as a block. So some union votes are more equal than others.
31. Blue2spin, you don’t recall correctly.
I think there is more perceived anti-semitism around because people have become more anti-theocracy (whatever the dominant religion).
Nick P - your seat gets a mention in the times today and the woman tory that has been selected to fight against you
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17129-2280124,00.html
unfortunately they see the seat as a tory gain after the boundary changes
31 - That system was the one finally abolished after the OMOV vote in 1993.
34. Red Flag, I think they got it wrong and it’s Staffordshire Moorlands, not Broxtowe that will become Tory after boundary changes.
“Unions used the one member one vote” - was there a “winner takes all” system for whoever won each union’s ballot? If so, it is not very democratic.
Blair’s election was academic anyway. Just look at the quality of his opposition. Where are they now I wonder? Ooops, they still occupy two of the most senior positions in the land!
Anti-semitism - is there more? Hard to judge… including the vicious hatred coming from certain Moslem clerics, there certainly is. Aside from that, I think there is less anti-Semitism than in the 1930s, or the 1970s (NF hey-day) for example.
There is a thin line to tread between being anti-Israel and being anti-Semitic. One columnist with a respected newspaper comes very close to overstepping it and gets away with it by saying “I have lots of Jewish friends” almost every week.
Despite his political views, Robert Fisk, and most “anti-Israeli” (ie those who oppose Israeli foreign policy) jounalists, stays well away from any danger of using anti-Semitic language. Good for him!
37. No. Each union’s votes are distributed in proportion to the members’ ballot.
34/36. Looking at the Broxtowe changes, it’s technically impossible for Broxtowe to become tory because of boundary changes. The only change seems to be Eastwood North and Greasley (a ward currently split between Ashfield and Broxtowe) going in Ashfield constituency.
According to Martin Baxter there were 1,168 voters from that ward in the current Broxtowe constituency…so even if they all voted for Nick, it wouldn’t be enough to swing the seat.
So just a poorly researched piece by The Times.
38 - good, pleased to hear it.
Amused by the fact that as a union member, my wife can vote for the next Labour leader, and as a LD member, she had a vote for the LD leader. Is there an easy way for her to vote for the next Tory leader, without selling her soul to the devil?
She does not, however, get a general election vote, as she is a Finnish national.
34. Karen Bradley was “inspired by Michael Howard”. Enough said…………
37. SBS Which paper does the columnist with “Jewish friends” write for?
40 SBS, your wife opt out of the affiliation and become not eligible for Labour elections.
I think that one of the problems of union votes is that not Lab voters can vote and it’s left to them being “honest” enough to opt out the voting right and/or not to vote.
39. The Times article also describes West Worcestershire as a safe seat. The majority is only 5.3% after a swing of over 3% to the Lib Dems last time. The boundary changes are slightly helpful to the Conservatives, but the potential loss of Sir Michael Spicer’s personal vote makes it a marginal by any definition.
42. SBS, not that I was implying your wife is dishonest if she votes in Lab elections. Just that I couldn’t find a better word.
43. maybe Spicer’s retirement can be good for them though. Some old MPs sometimes seem to tend to become “less active” and some of them couldn’t have up to date campaign skills (but a good agent can help in that department)
42. I was a trade union member at the time of the last leadership contest, and there was a statement to sign and send back with the ballot paper. Something along the lines ‘I support the Labour Party’s aims and values and I am not a member of another political party’.
40 - you could join the Tories as “husband and wife” members and she would get a vote, if you let the pretty little thing worry her head about such matters
40. Someone on the radio just said “It’s a long time since people joined the Conservative party to find a marriage partner…..”
Is it?
48 - Has Sally Illman (aka Mrs John Bercow) joined the Conservative party yet?
Kevin L I am afraid you are not correct, at least in how the electoral college rules have been used since 2000, and I doubt they have changed since the mid 90’s.
The Guardian in 2000 said about the elctoral college for London Mayor Livingstone said: “Frank won because one trade union leader and one Co-op branch cast eight per cent of the total votes in Frank’s favour without
balloting their members.
“Labour MPs’ votes were given 1,000 times the weight of an individual party
member and ó under massive pressure from the whips in a ballot that was
not even secret ó most of them cast their votes for Frank.”
And in 2006 the Guardian reported concerns about the stranglehold that a planned ’super-union’ of the T&G, Amicus and the GMB could have over the contest (for a new labour leader). The move would put over a quarter of the vote on the leadership into the hands of just one union leader.
In 2005 the Guardian reported The T&G deputy general secretary, Jack Dromey, made it clear that the union had yet to decide which Labour leadership candidates it might support. “This not a coronation of a PM in waiting”, he said. “We will want to talk to Gordon Brown and all the other candidates on what they will do for our members. We will then make a decision.”
The Guardian is hardly a bastion of Tory propaganda.
Then again even for Blair’s election, the unions decided for themselves their internal regulatons to implement the Kinnock OMOV proposals.
The electoral college is split into three sections resulting in each MP’s vote being worth several thousand union member votes and only slightly fewer ordinary member votes. And as some of these people fell into multiple categories they had in effect several votes.
So the whole system was not OMOV but an undemocratic mess.
42- Andrea, I don’t see what’s dishonest about it, if Labour has so stupid rules that they allow non-members to vote. They shouldn’t assume that all union members are on their side. Maybe the non-Labour union members should even organise and vote for the worst option for Labour, maybe that at last would force Labour to reform its rules (after the disaster).
51. As Kevin said at 46, when voting they had to sign a statement, so they would have lied. Ok, not dishonest, just liars.
“Maybe the non-Labour union members should even organise and vote for the worst option for Labour” - sabotage is very dangerous, and a mug’s game.
Lab and Tory leaders often go on to become PM. Has Blair’s election been sabotaged, Prezza may have become PM. Had Cameron’s been sabotaged, you never know, Liam Fox may have been PM in waiting. These things are too horrible to complicate. Sabotage could backfire on the whole country.
50 - That is not the system for Labour leader. Since 1993 the unions have not had discretion to cast their members votes as they please, and ballot papers have gone out to every individual member.
What happened in London and Wales has no bearing on this - in each case a new system was devised (in both cases to try and get the result Blair wanted)
54. Isn’t it funny that the London shortlist was Dobbo/Ken/Glenda……6 years later Blair would have tried to get rid of all 3, not just Ken! And maybe Ken is the less critical now!
Episode 176 of SSP saga
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=811&id=1061692006
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1064632006
50. Blue2win, as Alex said there were separate rules for the London Mayor and Wales Assembly selections. These allowed unions not to have a full ballot on cost grounds. The few who did not ballot probably swung the initial elections against Livingstone and Rhodri Morgan.
Your quote from Jack Dromey refers to the union’s recommendation. In 1994 only 2 out of 26 affiliated unions recommended Blair to their members, yet he won over 50% of the members’ votes.
56. Love the Labour insider quote. He/she/it practically mentioned all possible parties.
Alex on the contrary, the bosses imposed in London and Wales a replica of the Leadership college with three sections so that, according to a variety of sources, they could keep the unfavoured out. Fat lot of good it did them in both cases it seems?
The quotes from the union bosses are just a sample that shows they think they have control of their part of the college. i am sure they have.
The spin about ‘the most democratic’ leadership election ever, was just that. Spin. the attacks on the system from left wingers particularly, you can Google as well as I. They think its a stitch up.
Kevin L Well, it seems that we agree that the Labour electoral college system since 2000 was nowhere near OMOV.
If wish someone in the Labour party would get round to putting their constitution somewhere on the Internet.
Blue2win, the union bosses can say what they like, they still don’t have any power to cast their members votes in leadership elections. Ballot papers are sent out individually and collated and counted nationally.
Nick P, I’m not surprised that your postbag is filling re: Lebannon. The Bristish government’s acquiescence to the delierate destruction of a soverign nation and accompanying slaughter of fleeing innocents is one of the most disgusting, disgraceful, fawning and reticent responses to an international crisis of this kind in modern history. This cant be compared to Iraq, because this isnt a comparable situation.
Blair could act now and declare this action unacceptable, and Bush would have no choice but to reign Israel in to save face for the “coalition of the willing”, but he wont, because he is so infected with the US NeoCon worldview that he actually now believes it is OK for Israel to behave in this way. I truly believe he actually thinks that it is OK to sacrifice the lives 300 Lebanese civilians - women and children - to get back 2 Israeli soldiers out of principle. He is a national disgrace.
I picture Blue2Win desperately calling Conservative Central Office “there’s someone on this talkboard who say’s Labours selection of their leader in 1994 was open and honest. Need counter intelligence FAST!
“He is a national disgrace”
Perhaps of more political significance his own supporters are livid. Even the Foreign Office seems on the verge of breaking ranks. I wonder if this could be the breaking of the camels back and if this isn’t resolved before Conference could see him roundly booed. Surely that would be his end?
41, Roger. I’m very sure this reference is to Matthew Parris, writing in The Times.
I wholly disagree though - its absurd and offensive to call Parris anti-Semitic. I think Parris simply tells it like it is: in the end Israel will simply have to retreat to her 1967 borders, and pull out of the West Bank and Gaza. We all know that, most Israelis accept that, the question is: how do we get there? And how can we make Israel feel secure enough so that she can do this? Hezbollah may have to be dismantled and Iran/Syria caged before that is possible.
BTW I’m pretty pro-Israel, as it happens, but this racism subtext can cut both ways. I was watching This Week with Portillo etc last week, and they had Maureen Lipman on. Jewish, of course. She made an absolutely startling and to me repellent remark - they were talking about the Israeli soldiers who’ve been kidnapped. Explaining the strong Israeli reaction, Lipman said: ‘You have to understand, life is very valuable to the Israelis, every life counts.’ Then she added: ‘This isn’t the case on the other side, life is cheaper there. Look at the suicide bombers’.
An outrageous remark, I think - and blatantly racist. I was amazed no-one brought her up on it.
It’s further proof, too, that the two sides simply hate each other, the Jews openly loathe and despise the Arabs/Muslims, and of course many many Muslims would be delighted if Israeli was nuked into oblivion, along with the Jews.
A horrible mess.
Yes, good point seanT (not often we agree!). Perhaps M Lipman might consider why many Palestinials feel life is cheap. Soon the Lebanese will be feeling the same. How fortunate for suicide bomber recruiting seargents…
64 - If not now, when?
Blair is at his weakest, he is defying his party, he is under investigation for corruption and he’s a lame duck anyway. If Brown had the guts he would move now but, history suggesting that he hasn’t, someone else may well benefit from the situation instead. To knife Blair at the moment would enable the successor to posit a more logical and an *independent* foreign policy and voters would praise them as they would be reflecting their views in doing so.
Only 20% of the electorate made Blair PM again last year, to their eternal shame and despite the salutary lesson of Iraq. It was a pathetically small percentage but the pressure from those people, whether it be Roger or those in Nick P’s postbag, could yet redeem us as a nation.
SeanT. Is that you? I agree with almpost everything you have written including your defence of Matthew parris ( if that was the columnist referred to).
Maureen Lipman has expressed a common view amonst Jews (I’m asahamed to say I hear it every day) but unlike most Lipman thinks her position as a national treasure allows her to say this sort of thing out loud.
68 - I thought the reference was to Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. Can SBS confirm or deny?
69 - Yes, I am referring to Y A-B.
69. Matthew Parris certainly used the precise phrase SBS cited, and in the Times. And he did it while writing a piece openly and boldly critical of Israel/Zionism. I’m sure it’s him. The tenor would be less surprising from YABrown?
Incidentally, I was thinking about the Iran thing today. It occurred to me that if Iran got nuclear missiles she would quite possibly use them against Israel, in a first strike. Imagine Iran launched a hundred nukes against Israel. If each missiles killed 50,000 Jews (very feasible), that would be 5million dead - i.e. the end of Israel, and the extinction of Middle Eastern Jewry. OK, Israel would retaliate - launching maybe 200 missiles of her own - that would be 10million Iranians dead.
But would the Iranians particularly care? Mao killed 100 million Chinese in his pursuit of tryannical power and communist purity, he thought it a fair price. Are the Shia Islamists any better than Mao?
Moreover, the pay-off for Iran would be huge. If it destroyed Israel it would be the hero of the Middle East and Islam, having finally solved the Jewish problem at the cost of 10m of its own citizens.
If this dreadful war happened, then that would be it. Israel would be finished and destroyed. America would not then intervene, IMHO - what would be the point? When its a fait accompli? Besides, the rest of us would still have to get along with the Arabs/Islam, if only for the sake of oil. Peace would follow, sans Israel.
I know this is wild speculation, and appalling at that. But this is the kind of thinking that must be going through the Israeli military mind: she simply can’t allow Iran to gain any more power, certainly not gain nukes. Hence the present struggle against Iran’s proxies, I think - Israel and the US have to show they are serious about opposing Iran, so Iran does not go any further.
That’s my take, anyway. None of this excuses the open racism on both sides - from Jews AND Muslims.
70. Apologies SBS!! Parris did use the exact phrase you quoted. I jumped to conclusions. I’ve never seen YAB do it..
Is YAB anti-Semitic though? She may be a self-pitying loon much of the time, but she is also quite critical of Islam in her own way. But I haven’t seen the column you refer to so I shall shut up.
Actually, the racism in the comment Lipman made: ‘You have to understand, life is very valuable to the Israelis, every life counts.’ is quite obvious - because it clearly only applies to Israelis. It’s implausible to say you care about life and then shell an international airport. Anyone who really cared about life would have exhausted all non-violent methods of retrieving the soldiers, before embarking on limited military missions against military targets…rather than immediately launching a wide-ranging civilian bombing campaign.
The reality is that both Israel and Hizbollah have been wanting a confrontation for some time. The Israeli govt is now using the opportunity to the fullest to punish the Lenanese people for the presence of Hizbollah. Seems it’s OK to collectively punish Lebanese civilians in this way, but to punish Israeli civilians for the actions of the Israeli govt is rightly called terrorism. And we wonder why the Arab street thinks the West is a hypocritical bunch of liars?…
Why are all your hearts pumping piss for Lebanon? There’s been 400,000 killed in Darfur but that never gets a mention. Is it because it Al Fashir lacks a restaurant of the quality of Beirut’s La Rabelais? Or is it because Roger has never made a commercial for condoms or Tic-Tacs there?
73 - The going rate for Lebanese civilian lives as opposed to Israeli ones is apparently twenty to one.
This was clearly a pre-planned response to a hizbollah attempt to repeat the prisoner swaps of the past. The escalation was from Israel, they’ve just been waiting for the moment.
It appears that Israel is starting to take on the mantle of international hate figure for the left, filling the void created by the collapse of apartheid South Africa. It’s not hard to see why - the Israelis fit the caricature of evil ‘white’ colonialists quite well. The psychological urge among left wingers to create a hate figure comes from self-loathing, so Israel fits the bill much better than countries like North Korea, Zimbabwe, or Sudan.
74 - Sudan as well and, lest we forget, Iran, Afghanistan, and Palestine. None should be forgotten, especially as the failed policies by the west in those places is something that is being blithely tried in Lebanon, in the full knowledge that they will have a similar destructive, destabilising and murderous effect.
76 - I think you’ll find that Israel arouses the disgust of the right as much as the left, and rightly so. A liberal US president would do the same as Bush, it is much more a case of our sovereignty and independence as a nation being destroyed by being attached to the policies of that nation. In the way that the EU is a figure of mistrust on the right so is the relationship between the US and the UK with us as a craven little lapdog.
76. Quite so. A billion neuroses collide in Israel and the Middle Eastern problem. A lot of people just hate Israel and her backer, America, and are drooling at the chance to hate her some more - and with some justification - during this crisis.
This Week (again! I do have a life..) was good, er, this week. Diane Abbot did the normal anti-Israeli, anti-American rant, and Simon Schama asked her: what would you do about Hezbollah then? About their rockets? If you were Israeli?
She simply didn’t have an answer. She floundered appallingly. She went on again about Israeli war crimes but she obviously hadn’t even thought about that angle - that Israel couldn’t put up with any more Hezbollah attacks.
Israel has made some basic and tragic errors, I think, in this crisis, but she also has to defend herself. The prejudices of the left don’t help us understand the Israeli position.
77. Maybe, but why does 300+ Lebanese deaths have all and sundry reaching for the onions but 400,000 in Darfur can’t distract us for one moment from discussion of LibDem bar charts, Prescott’s cock size, etc.? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong because I don’t give a flying f*ck about either place. So, why has the recent outbreak of Levantine unpleasantness generated such faux lachrymose outage when, in absolute terms, it’s nothing compares to what is happening elsewhere.
80 - One reason, TV pictures. Nothing more sinister but the pictures attract the, unfortunately, short attention span of Joe Public whereas newsprint doesn’t.
74 - A very good question, Simon. I that thought had quietly crossed my mind the once or twice in the past few days.
82 - Grrrr! An edit facility please!! ‘That thought has quietly crossed my mind once or twice over the past few days’, rather.
80: Because our Prime Minister goes on international TV with George Bush saying that what’s happening in Lebannon is OK and shouldnt stop immediately. Because he said that what Israel was doing was proportionate. Because he said he backed their right to do what they were doing. So, Simon, can you point to when our Prime Minister said the same things about what the Janjaweed militia were doing in Darfour? Can you point to when our Prime Minister said the Janjaweed militia were being proportionate? Has out Prime Minister condoned what the Janjaweed militia are doing? No?
I would not say Y A-B is anti-Semitic. But some of the language she uses appears very close to being anti-Jew rather than anti-Israeli foreign policy. However, she is extremely readable. But she should be careful. I think she knows this as she seems to receive a lot of hate mail.
That is one of the joys of the Independent. You get arch-Thatcherite, hang ‘em flog ‘em Bruce Anderson (always well written and witty, though I disagree violently). Would the Guardian give space to a man like him? Or even the Times? I also enjoyed reading Johan Hari - even when he was a gung-ho pro-Iraq war, ultra-Blairite.
The only one Indy columnist I cannot abide is Joan Smith - who oncestated that all men who go with prostitutes are morally on a level with paedophiles. She regularly comes out with sexist tosh.
85 - I’m not an Independent fan, but you do have a point about the range of columnists. You wouldn’t get Simon Carr in the Guardian either.
Simon has a point, which ukpaul answers well I thought. I think the real answer is subtly different and assumes a sort of racism on the part of many of us.
When the Sudanese government, or the Burmese, or the various faction in Congo butcher a load of people it is basically expected. All of us think of them as essentially barbarians for whom life is cheap - and that they don’t aspire to much better. We’ve been condemning them for so long there isn’t anything left to say.
Likewise Hizbollah. Very few people pretend they are not rather dodgy.
Israel on the other hand is essentially a modern Western nation that thinks of itself as civilised. We expect them to live by higher standards than their opponents, yet actions over recent years suggest that they don’t. That’s why there has been a chorus of criticism from the liberal and leftish elements in the West, now joined by very many on the conservative right.
My enemy’s enemy isn’t necessarily my friend.
87 - Easy for those of us to condemn Israel’s response from afar - where we are not risking the merit of our sensibilities at the point of attack. Do you think some of us might think differently of it if we were situated in a region surrounded by hostile powers and if it were our soldiers being kidnapped and our cities subjected to rocket attack?
My sympathies have always lain with Israel and I am very hesitant to criticise their actions if they deem them necessary to preserve their national security in a region where any sign or show of weakness could be a disaster for them.
By the way, anyone who thinks that the lachrymose outrage is ‘faux’ does not understand the situation. Sorry, but a lack of understanding as to the feelings of either side is the root of the problem.
88 - I think it is relatively self evident to us that the actions of Israel are harming it not helping it, in actual fact I feel that the biggest enemy of Israel is often Israel itself. Wouldn’t it be better for those from afar, who have a better perspective on the situation, to tell them that they are the ones sowing the seeds for their potential; destruction?
I don’t understand why this particular US administration, unlike others, and especially the cowardly British government has not told Israel this. Unless in an act of strange logic, it desires to see Israel weakened.
Well I can ask myself were I in Israel’s position would I do the same? Would I dish out the same absurd blanket punishments which ultimately increase the misery to my own population.
I’m utterly certain I wouldn’t.
I might well choose a violent reponse if I thought there was an upside for Israel… but not this.
88 - I agree AH. I don’t think it’s possible for Israel to simply turn the other cheek given it’s position within the region. What message would it send to Iran if Israel was to do nothing?
I pity the plight of the Lebanese as I have been to Lebanon. When I went in 1998 they were just getting over the civil war. It was the most fantastic holiday I have ever had. There was such a sense of optimism, and “never again”. Under Rafiq Hariri the country was being splendidly rebuilt.
Hariri is dead now, and all seems lost for the country. Bush and Blair seem happy for it to be destroyed all over again - by Syria and Israel.
As Israel is a UK / US ally, and “is essentially a modern Western nation that thinks of itself as civilised”, Blair and Bush should do all they can to stop both sides, rather than sit idly by and let Beirut return to 1976 or 1982.
Breaking news on BBC website:-
Foreign Office Minister Kim Howells criticizes Israeli action in Lebanon.
88 AHM “Do you think some of us might think differently of it if we were situated in a region surrounded by hostile powers”
The sort of ‘feeling’ you get if you’ve broken into someone’s house and decided to stay there?. The Palestinian reaction to the flood of invader/immigrants who dispossessed them after those racist europeans founds it convenient to turn their back on them seeems mostly mild compared to (say) Tony Martin. But then I forgot, today’s Chameeweon policy is to be soft on hoodies is it not?
No one has answered my point upthread. Maybe because I phrased it in a slightly mad way.
To reiterate: perhaps Israel feels the need to take out Hezbollah now, and thus send a message to Iran, because if Israel waits until Iran is on the verge of nukes, that will be worse. It is simply impossible for Israel to permit Iran to acquire nuclear weapons - she couldn’t risk the chance of a first-strike from openly anti-Semitic Iran - so Israel would then have to wage war on Iran pre-emptively, to degrade Iran’s military. A terrible war.
Seen in this light, the action against Hezbollah is just a way of sending a stark message to Iran, NO NUKES, and meanwhile removing a living threat to Israel just across the border. Better than waiting and having to tackle Iran directly.
We may disagree with Israel’s tactics - especially the massive overkill of Lebanese civilians - but it is hard to argue with Israeli strategy.
Iran will have to be confronted and disarmed - unless it civilises itself - and if the West won’t do it, then Israel will have to.
Good for him. Good to see some Labour MPs retain their moral conscience when they are promoted to minister. I dont expect king Tony will be pleased with his courtier…
90/91 - Paul/Jon. I must respectfully disagree with all of that. Israel has a right to defend itself and it’s citizens. I would expect the British government to do no less if we were threatened in a similar way. They don’t have the luxury of worrying about some of the same high-minded and abstract considerations that we do because we are not the ones under the gun.
I am no particular fan of the Bush administration, but I do think that they are right in saying that the key to solving this particular mess lies in getting Syria and Iran to rein in their terrorist proxies in Lebanon. Until that happens Israel will not negotiate, and neither would I in their place.
92 - Precisely, Max.
seanT - I dont think anyone serious considers that Iran will imediately launch a mission of national suicide the moment it gets nukes just to look “cool” on the Islamic street. People tried to say the same thing a few years ago before N Korea got nukes, but nations dont commit suicide. Iran wants nukes for the same reason most of these “rogue” nations want them: to prevent US attack, and to increase popularity at home so that popular revolutions dont occur.
i agree your analysis though not your ‘take’ Sean.
“perhaps Israel feels the need to take out Hezbollah now”
Indeed. And perhaps hexbollah feels the same about the cuckoos israel in the Mid East neas? Do we agree that either is a good idea, however we may feel about the regimes or ethnicity or religious afiliation of the peoples there? OF COURSE pre-emptive attack (flavour of month and against UN charter) is always justifiable when it’s our enemies because we’re so superiour aren’t we. Gives us the right. Who says so? Why WE say so, who’s arguing mate?
“Iran will have to be confronted and disarmed - unless it civilises itself”
Who knows, perhaps the US and lapdog Tone might set them an example. remind me, which of the two country has slaughtered the most innocent civilians in thee past five years? US or Iran?
96 - A strategy which is short termist to say the least. It may buy a few years but the enmity that it will create is enormous. Given that those who may well have been able to unite to dissipate Hezbollah are now escaping from Lebanon, and are likely never to return, this has turned it into a state on the doorstep more conducive to Islamism and even less controllable. A massive own goal for Israel.
If, as Israel has done, you’ve managed to get yourself holed up and surrounded by those who wish to destroy you what do you go for? The current response appears to be to go down all guns blazing, leaving those with greater numbers to over-run you when they are exhausted. While that has a certain romanticism to it it’s utterly foolish.
Surely the only solution now is for Israel to realise the futility of future aggression and to seek a peaceful saolution which, while it may dilute the purity of Israel, would allow it to exist in the future.
The only ones who will be put into a position where they are to use nuclear weapons is Israel, they are weakened and cornered and god help us all if they decide to do so against Tehran/Damascus wherever.
98- “I must respectfully disagree with all of that. Israel has a right to defend itself and it’s citizens. I would expect the British government to do no less if we were threatened in a similar way.”
Had we adopted that policy with regard to the IRA in the 1970s and 80s, we would have been bombing west Belfast and nice cottages on the Cork and Kerry coast.
Of course, if we had gone after the fundraisers for the IRA, we would have bombed bars in New York and Chicago.
102 - The Geopolitical situation wasn’t quite the same then was it, SBS? Cute as your comparison may be, whole British cities were not subject to rocket attack from foreign territory, and the IRA were not perceived to be agents of hostile foreign powers who are committed to the destruction of Great Britain and its eradication from the face of the earth.
It’s funny that people on the right often criticize people on the left for being one eyed, but at the same time they do the same.
104 - I think that criticism works both ways, Andrea.
105. touché, mon cher?
(ok, I’m watching Poirot, so I tend to speak in French
A lot of tosh being talked here. To compare Hezbollah with the IRA is plainly idiotic, for a start.
The leader of Hezbollah, Nasrallah, is on record saying that Israel is a good idea because it gathers all the world’s Jews in one place, saving Hezbollah the trouble of ‘going after Jews worldwide’.
The uncomfortable truth is, as anyone who has travelled in the Middle East knows, that many Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians still wish for the complete eradication of Israel. Which is why, presumably, Iran’s Supreme Leader last week called Israel ‘an infectious tumour for the Islamic World’. Nice.
The IRA never wanted to destroy Britain and kill all Britons. It wanted UK troops out of Ireland and a United Eire. That was negotiable. Israel is in a very different position. How can Israel negotiate with people like Hezbollah, Syra, Iran and Hamas, who ardently wish the destruction of Israel and all Israelis?
Similarly at 99 - how do you know Iran won’t launch a first-strike on Israel? You just ‘know’ this do you? Iranian leaders are on record as wishing for the wholescale destruction of the Jewish state. Maybe, just maybe, we should take them seriously? We thought Hitler was joking, he wasn’t.
The point is, we cannot know whether Iran would risk 5 million dead to finally erase Israel in a first strike. Maybe Iran would, maybe Iran wouldn’t. If I were an Israeli, I wouldn’t want to gamble on the Iranians just ‘joking’. Would you?
106 - I prefer Sherlock Holmes personally. Particularly the Jeremy Brett series.
Bravo Kim howell. I suppose it’s the Welsh in him that when faced with the destruction of the beautiful country that Lebanon is he just felt compelled to ignore the odious Blair and Beckett and unreservedly condemn Israel. It’ll probably cost him his job but Blair will surely not survive much longer.
As everyone who has been will know that to visit Beirut/Lebanon is to love it. Jon makes the mistake of thinking Lebanon can or should be held responsible for Hizbollah. After 25 years of civil war the only way the country could function was to accomodate her enemies and even her invaders. This will set it back years if not leading to a Hizbollah take over of a perfectly balanced government.
I am not convinced that there is a direct link between the support for Respect in Tower Hamlets & Newham and the support for the BNP in Barking, Redbridge etc. The analogy with the Sinn Fein/DUP situation is unhelpful.
The growth of the Respect Party has primarily been within the Muslim population and primarily in response to the invasion of Iraq. The party has won its seats by mobilising the Muslim vote in the areas where they are concentrated. The Respect campaign in Tower Hamlets in May was directed entirely at Blair and the Labour Council. There was no sign of the BNP, or much mention of them.
Similarly the success of the BNP was based on them presenting themselves as the alternative to the Labour Council. Yes a large part of their campaigning is based on anti-immigration and racist policies, but not against Respect as such.
This is quite different to the Sinn Fein/DUP situation where those parties are actually going head to head in most contests which is not the case here.
There are some common factors - both parties appeal to the disenfranchised and working class. Housing issues, for example, played a big part in both parties’ campaigns. And clearly support for the BNP is built on a fear of the growing number of immigrants.
One of the interesting things about BNP support is that is often weak in the areas that have the highest immigrant populations but stronger in the areas next to them. I guess it is about a fear of what is to come, rather than the reality.
The real challenge in all these places is for the Lib Dems and/or Tories to get stuck in and offer more effective opposition to Labour.
34: Yes, redflag, saw that and dropped them a note. The actual change is in a marginal Con/Lab ward and our best estimnate from canvass data is that it will reduce my majority by 20, shrug. The seat is marginal anyway, of course, but the boundary changes aren’t the reason - rather, that it’s a classic Tory seat defying gravty.
If Israel is essentially a ‘Western modern democratic nation’ then what do you think Lebanon is? And unlike Israel the Lebanese allow all the citizens in the land they occupy to vote.
103 - Hezbollah may well be agents of other countries - but they are not agents of Lebanon.
I have no problem at all with Israel acting to take out Hezbollah.
My objection is to them slaughtering Laebanese civillians and deliberatly attempting to destory Lebanon’s infrastructure.
It is disproportianate, inhuman and counter-productive.
Why are people so concerned about this but not talking about Darfur? Because our Prime Minister has refused to condemn it, that’s why.
112 - Israelis allow all of their *citizens* to vote Roger - Jew, Arab or Christian. There is an Israeli Arab faction in the Knesset, IIRC.
113 - Oh really? There are two Hizbollah members in the Lebanese Cabinet, Neil. Relations seem fairly cosy to me.
To say Israel is surrounded by countries seeking it’s destruction can only be said by someone with no knowledge of geography. It’s surrounded by Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.
116 - Anyone who doesn’t think that Israel is surrounded by countries seeking it’s destruction is obviously ignorant of history.
115 - Please reminf me did Sian Fien also have MPs in the British parliament when it was still bombing London and other parts of the UK…I think so!
Did we go and bomb the shit out of Dublin(who knew more than they let on) or Belfast(where IRA members are still protected by civilians)….I think not!
You Tories and Labour make me sick, you now as well as I do if Lebanon had one drop of oil Bush would have phoned the Isralies before the first fighter took off to tell them to calm down.
If you think this is not true God help you and your party, more blinkered tan ever.
Only Ming(who I am to fab of) has said anything, but not nearly enough. Where is Cameron, what a comlete spinless, floppy haired, A1 prat he has turned out to be…just like his hero Blair.
seanT, how quickly people forget just what the IRA campaign was like. Particularly surprising that those on the right should forget it too, considering how they railed and raged against it back in the 80’s. Remember when british businesses were declared “legitimate economic targets” by the IRA? That lead to Canary Wharf being bombed. Remember when bus stations and train stations and shopping malls were targetted? Remember when there were no bins on UK high streets or bus/train stations in the mid 80’s for fear of bombs being put in them? Remember when the IRA twice tried to kill UK Prime Ministers? Remember when the IRA went after the Royal family? Remember that the total death toll from Irish terrorism on all sides was 3,500 people? Remember when the IRA said England was a target because it maintained the “occupation” of Ulster? Remember when there were deaths most weeks? Soldiers kidnapped, police stations rocketed, army posts mortared?
And in fact, there were those on the right back then who called for Ireland to be held responsible for the IRA; there were those who said that we should not be afraid to bomb Irish border towns known to be sheltering IRA terrorists fleeing from attacks. Those nutty voices were - thank god - ignored, and shown to be twisted and hate-filled. It is nothing new that nationalists and war-mongers desire mighty veneance time and time again as the solution to everything. Mighty vengeance; overwhelming force; final solutions; might is right; collective punishments; teaching them a lesson….all chapters from the same sorry book of failure…
117 - and pleaes tell me who’s land they took in 1947? I’m sure you would be chuffed if a few million Jewish people were dumped in your back yard and you had no choice on it.
Your lot get pissed off when a few thousand Romanina’s slip through the net, try 2 million taking your land with the guilt of a Holocust you had nothing to do with used to justify it.
I’m sure you would have welcomed them with open arms!
AHM. I said Lebanon allow all the citizens in the land they OCCUPY to vote. Those occupied after ‘67 cannot vote in Israeli elections or municipal elections in Jerusalem
118 - Do you mean Sinn Fein? I believe they did have MPs - who refuse to take their seats in any case. Are you suggesting that the Republic of Ireland were complicit in IRA terrorist activities? Very interesting….
119 - spot on Mark, you Tories(and New Labour) need to get a grip, you are so far up Bush’s backside no one can tell when he stops and you start!
Roger I most certainly don’t make that mistake… in fact we are pretty much in agreement. My point which I thought was pretty clear is that we already hold most of the sworn enemies of Israel in contempt.
I thinks the bombing of bridges, infrastructure and civilians is a straightforward war crime.
121 - Citizens of what, Rog? Why should Israel allow anyone who does not hold Israeli citizenship to vote in an Israeli election?
122 - are you saying that the Lebanese Government was complicit in Hezbollah terrorist activates? Do you have solid, undeniable proof of this?? Or is it the same proof that Bush and Blair used to get us to invade Iraq?!
You are smug git(oh do excuse my spelling) you presume to know everything but now nothing, you just think you do. Like all old Tories you’ll soon find out most people are not as ignorant as you.
Have you lived through such bombings, I have, and if you had any idea what this was doinf to the civlian population you would shut your mouth and swith your brain on!
125: Wonderful sophistry. Only jews in the occupied territories were given citizenship.
Blue sky thinking! Israel should withdraw to her 1967 boundaries, unilaterally. Close all settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. Then she can build a big wall if she likes - 100 foot tall - but do it on the border, on her own land, not on any Palestinian land. She can expel unhappy Palestinians if she wishes, so as to retain a Jewish majority. Jerusalem is redivided, and governed by a neutral force; Israel stops all military actions against Palestine forthwith.
Then she will have the upper hand, morally, at last. And the complete support of the West, apart from those irreducible anti-Semites on left and right who disguise their hatred of Jews behind anti-Israeli rhetoric. They will be exposed.
Iran meanwhile is cornered and isolated, and told to expect massive retaliation by the entire West if she attacks Israel again, directly or by proxy.
Meanwhile, the West pulls as many troops as possible out of the Middle East, stops supporting corrupt Middle Eastern regimes; simultaneously we expel all Muslims in western countries who do not wish to live in a western country with western values.
Bish bosh. Job done. How hard is that?
126 - Two Hizbollah members of the Lebanese cabinet. One might wonder exactly what they knew….
As for the rest of your post - very humourous, Big Mak. I won’t stoop to your level, because don’t give a flying fig what you think of me or anything else, but yes - I was a child living in London at the time of the Blitz. I doubt there is much you could ‘teach’ me about these things…
127 - I wonder why that was, Mark?
129: racism?
128: evidently it is too hard
130 - Preservation of their race, perhaps?
128. Sean, there I was agreeing with you completely till:
“we expel all Muslims in western countries who do not wish to live in a western country with western values.”
You see I find most of my Muslim friends share the social and family values which I have which are far from those of NUTS and ZOO etc and Paris Hilton which are the prevailing ‘western values’ of the beggar-my-neighbour amoral ’society’ (No such thing say Maggie?) which the rest of us residents here have to tolerate.
Of course once upon a time I thought ‘western values’ included respect for rule of law etc but I can see now that Blair’s Government is (like every US government since the year dot) even worse than Major’s in fiddling anything it can for whatever reason suits itself.