Predicting 2007: The Lib Dems
December 30th, 2006
Thankfully for Lembit not many LDs read the Daily Mail
There is absolutely no doubt about which Lib Dem is going to account for the most column inches during the 2007. For you cannot go round, as the Mail reported, telling complete strangers that they “have the best breasts in Wales” and expect to survive as party shadow spokesman on the Principality.
The tabloids are on to Lembit now and surely the only question is how long will it be before Ming has to sack him?
This is just one of the points for the 2007 Prediction Competition that will be published tomorrow - the thread where entries should be posted. The purpose of this is to provide a discussion forum for some of the issues that will be covered.
Lembit apart, the Lib Dems have had an interesting 2006 - from the depths in late January when poll ratings slipped to 13% to the highs only a few weeks later when they won the Dunfermline by-election from Labour in the seat next door to where Gordon Brown lives.
Will there be a by-election opportunity for the party in 2007. That we do not know but after Bromley in the summer then anything might be possible and you would not rule them out of winning virtually anywhere.
This thread is for discussion only - the questions will be published tomorrow.
Mike Smithson
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Interesting. Highest and lowest…. 26% and 12%? Ming to remain leader until June, after poor locals he will resign for health reasons. Nick Clegg to be elected leader. In the English locals… LDs net about 50 from Labour.
Lembit also cheated on Sian with a Lib Dem general election candidate and a Baroness’s young daughter.
Not sure on By-Election anywhere that is a stronghoild for either of the big two yes they become the default option for the Tactical Voter. Anywhere that’s a Lab-Con marginal and they start way behind they may undoubtedly win vote share but merely hand the seat to the Second placed party. BTW I bet any occur early next year Labour if it’s them will try and hold with Locals/Devolveds to get it all out the way in one night.
Re Devolveds will I think do very well. I just think the public will treat each individual contest as a By-Election to kick Labour. Hence where the Lib Dems are or are becoming the challengers v Labour they will benefit, just as elsewhere it’ll be the Tories eg Swansea West Lib Dem, Cardiff North Tories. Lib Dem net gain about 5 in both Assemblies.
Ming will last. He will profit from Labour’s troubles in May, getting a polling boost. They are still doing well with the pollster for most Lib Dem credibility ICM, and not least GB’s new authoritarian agenda means they will remain a natural hom for disillusioned Guardian Labourites, who still can’t quite cross to Cameron’s new lot. Just as they once provided refuge for one nationish Tories whose lingering allegiance mean’t they couldn’t quite cross to Labour.
Interesting set of questions - if Ming does indeed go (and personally I don’t think that he will) the election will be interesting - Huhne to make it second time around?
As for the by-election questions - you would expect (using the recent past as a guide - notoriously inexact) 2 or 3 in the year. The Libs could probably expect to win 1 of these given reasonable ‘luck’ in which constituency it is (ie southern tory seat with Libs strong second a distinct possibility; northern labour seats a good possibility too)
IMO, an MP should be someone with roots in the constituency they puport to represent.
It is grotesque that Lembit Opik is MP for Montgomeryshire — or that Shaun Woodward is MP for St Helens — or that Peter Hain is MP for Neath, for that matter. There are many capable people (of all political persuasions) who have roots in these constituenceis and who would be much better equipped to represent the areas and their peoples in parliament.
Neither Lembit nor Shaun, nor Peter had any remote connection to their constituencies prior to election.
So … I hope the jackals of the tabloid press bring Lembit down.
Asked the very same question to a liberal MP in the back of my cab the other day.
He said “defection,defection,defection “
4. Any Northern stronghold Labour seat will fall, even if the Lib Dems are nominally in second.
5. Any Welsh Assembly predictions.
“Thankfully for Lembit not many LDs read the Daily Mail”
Mike, Did you mean LD activists or people who just vote LD? I assume you meant the former as if the latter then this is I beleive a misconception. I’ve heard on various Focus writing course the question ‘What paper do you think LD voters read?’ The expected responses is something like the Independent. However of course LD voters are a broader cross representation of the general public and even if they are more inclinded to a newspaper like the Independent then because of the larger circulation of papers like the Mail and the Sun there will still be more reading these papers. The point being put across on the course is that the ‘Focus’ articles should be aimed at this audience in terms od sentence length, boldness of type and pictures (plus of course to get the message across in the 10 seconds from letter box to bin!).
So Lembit being plastered over the Mail may not be good news.
How long will Ming last?
Based on past history the Lib Dems have taken years to act against an inadequate Leader. They have shown amazing patience giving Charlie a couple of years beyond what the Tories would have done.
Ming’s health is the factor that throws doubt on whether he lasts the year.
How about a question; will any LD MP’S defect to the Tories?
Lib Dems losses of over 150 seats to the Tories next year should see a couple of rats leave the sinking ship.
Middle aged man has breast obsession, shock horror! Only a daily Mail reader could be shocked at that. I wonder how many Mail journalists would like to see their private lives opened up to scrutiny, bet they’re all plaster saints.
Lembit is not married man, he was in a long term relationship and his behaviour is not of the highest order, but there is no reason to sack him. If Lembit is sacked, then Prescott and Johnson certainly should have been. As for all MP’s, should be rooted in their constituencies, (5) most of them aren’t. Marcus Woods PPC for Torbay, and a regular contributor, I don’t think (I may be wrong) has too much of a connection with Torbay.
The Libdems will have to ‘remove’ Ming before the next GE, only the most blinkered Libdem supporter can deny that. As for success in byelections/locals (as we were discussing previously) remember Darlington. Pressure was building to remove Michael Foot, that pressure subsided when the Darlington Byelection (82) showed a swing to Labour, the Tories retook the seat in 83.
If Ming isn’t visible enough, how about replacing him with Lembit?
re 12 You might find Lembit’s behaviour acceptable - I don’t. In this day and age to go round telling a woman who was only doing her job that she “has the best breasts in Wales” is simply going too far. I think that Lembit’s behaviour is very sad because he is a talented politician but to be so full of himself that he felt able to say such a thing is outrageous. In a work situation, which this was for him, that is sexual harassment.
12,14 - I find it interesting that whatever the rights and wrongs of Lembit’s behaviour, the Mail manages to make into a story that sounds current, an episode that is over 18 months old. Presumably they have done some digging to find this story, and thus presumably they could find nothing more recent. (Cheeky Girls apart)
Ten not until 2008. IIRC No Tories defected til 95 ie two years b4 the election when the shape of the polls had become clear. If any occur among Lab/Libs don’t expect them next year at least.
BTW Guiddo has as one of his predictions Tory approached to Lib Dems next year re post election situation. Don’t say it can’t happen, only not next year. Once the smoke has cleared from Blair’s departure/Brown’s arrival and people can be more certain about what the polls saying.
Wasn’t Opik the main cheerleader for Mark Oaten?
Hard call with Opik, whether it’s his usual poor judgement or just the village idiot.
Surely the Lib Dems can find somebody else as their spokesperson for Wales.
Lembit Opik’s behaviour is odd, to say the least. However I imagine that many Liberal Democrats will be weighing his faults against the fact that he adds colour to the political landscape and concluding that there’s probably a net benefit to keeping him in place - especially when the Lib Dems need all of the media that they can get!
18 - media attention, I meant to type
14. What was the context then.
14 Mike
I don’t find it acceptable, as I said it is not of the highest order. But compared to the behaviour of some politicians, its pretty small beer. If I was to compare it to the behaviour of Prescott, which I think was awful. Boris Johnson whose treatment of Petronella Wyatt was despicable, yet Boris is a media hero, who was not censured in any way.
21. Re-Paste a reply to you on the six seat thread I think..
105. TBH I really don’t think any Lib Dem alternate would do better. Mid term starved of oxygen the Lib Dems always dip. Last time was different… Iraq was there. So unless TB/GB invade Iran next year this pattern is not unusual as I say the best guide for Lib Dems is ICM. So long as you hold steady at 18-20% with ICM, at this stage you have no need to panic. Besides Lib Dem organisation is improving to the extent I could easily foresee a 1997 style dip in vote share with gains in numbers of MPs.
BTW HF araound at all.
by Punter December 29th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Mike I hope you did notice that:
a) Melissa is a friend of Stifyn Parri - the man implicated as the 3rd man in the relationship between Lembit and Sian
b) Melissa was willing to pose for a sexy photo for The Mail
You dont suppose that is just part of the return-fire in the ongoing spat, and a chance to make some quick cash for all concerned?
10/11 We are still waiting for the 3 defections Rik W said were imminent in January . My own view on Ming is unchanged since before his election in that he should only be a stopgap leader until later this year and the leadership would then go to one of the next generation hopefully female .
The Lembit story seems to me much ado about nothing perhaps it would be different he were married like the serial adulterers so common in the Conservative party .
Mark dont exaggerate. Imminent is not a word I used. I had it on good authority that two or three Lib Dem MPs were in talks with the Conservative party but have not jumped ship - yet!
We will see what the New Year brings!
24. I really think that’s unwise. New leaders are the A-Bombs in a party’s amoury. You only use them as a last resort. You succeeded in recoverin your credibility this year. To dump Ming and have three leaders in one parliament would expose you to the sort of ridicule the Australian Labor Party has undergone. That’s not to say it should never be done,, but it is is a crisis solution to a crisis, and you seem to agree you are not in that situation on the basis of a CR Poll. Also see my point at 22.
25. No Tories defected til 95 last time. Don’t expect any til 2008 if they occur. Who will take a chance while the impact of the Blair departure/Brown arrival is awaited by us all.
25. I imagine a lot of Lib Dem activists would be delighted to see the back of a few of the dangerous right wing Orange Bookers who pose such a grave threat to their cherished left wing principles…Laws, Clegg and Cable out…Ming sacked…and Sarah Teather to lead the Lib Dems to electoral triumph in 2009.
Re 22 Punter I just don’t get these LD organisation improvements that you herald. The LD candidates group is complaining about the delays in appointing candidates and LDs have a major lack of “diversity candidates”. So far the Conservatives have managed to appoint more candidates with a greater % of females and ethnic groups than the LDs. If the organisation is working so well, why is it that LDs are talking about losing (net) councillors next May? Maybe because LDs are at 18% (generous) compared to the 22%/23% in Dec 2002? That is a drop of between 1/4 and 1/5 of their support.
I repeat, the polling levels for LDs in 2006 were the lowest in 5 years and not a cyclical 4 year “mid term” dip.
Odd thing is that there is very little debate on the open LD sites about it, whereas Conservative sites have some very open debates.
Regarding Lembit we have another case of a walking embarrassment who according to the newspaper goes around drinking and acting in a sleazy manner to women without any action taken by the LDs. There was corroboration of this by Vanessa Feltz. How long before some of the leading female MPs lean on Ming about it? They were the ones who removed Charlie.
Of course for Labour and Conservatives the longer Lembit carries on the better their polls are. So if I see him I shall be glad to buy him another drink.
From what I hear and suspect, the first of several MP defectors is being lined up for the right moment.
by Rik W January 25th, 2006 at 9:56 am
http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2006/01/25/icm-boost-for-simon-hughes/#comment-149570
Well, this “lining up” appears to have taken 11 months and counting!
29. The ‘organisational improvement’ stuff is just a party line that is being trotted out to keep the troops happy, methinks.
24
To be fair to the Lib Dems at the time of Opik’s comments their then leader was in a more or less a permaneant drunken stupor so hardly surprising that no action was taken.
I would imagine that he will be dumped when Ming has his next reshuffle.
Mike, Thanks for the article. Lembit does seem a bit accident prone does he not? We shall see how he goes.
RE 24, Mark Senior, Do you really think Ming will be replaced this year? With only 1 day to go? Surely he will make it to 2007
30. Look a couple of posts down on that thread and you will find that Rik’s view was to some extent shared by some Lib Dems, too…
41 - Rik, quite possibly one or two MPs may defect. Fine, OK …”
by Tabman January 25th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Obviously Lembit was drunk. She clearly hasn’t got the best breasts in Wales and even if she had I doubt most people would get past her face to notice. Please excuse this extremely sexist post but in my opinion when anyone does a ‘kiss and tell’-particularly for the Mail- they lose all rights to be treated with civility.
As for Lembit….I agree with Mike. His temporary success is making him over confident and though the public might love a Lothario-never one that looks like Lembit.
Oh BV that was wicked of you to burst the bubble with a well-aimed fact. Or maybe the Tories are not very good at lining things up (obvious exception aside).
Happy New Year by the way to you and everyone else.
Re 35, Roger, I think you are being harsh on the girl. She is as pretty as a picture. (In the Tate modern, by Picasso
)
And to you, Jon (and everyone else!)
29. Evidence. Well Bromley for starters. Mr Smithson for seconds. But 18% is high by usual standards, and if usual pattern follows they wil put on 3-4 points next time. CHHQ reacted to Bromley with massive re-organisation. I’d be surprised if the Lib Dems don’t gain net seats next time. I really think Blair’s last election will see a mass boycott by Labour activists. You answered my 1997 point by saying the Tories will be ten points higher by then. Well you presumably don’t think Labour will be, so a Tory improvement could in at least some cases give Labour seats to the Lib Dems. I also think Tory voters are going in the same ugly mood Labour voters were in years gone, willing to learn and then vote accordingly for who is best placed to beat Labour in their constituency if it is not the Conservative Candidates.
Sorry “next time” = Next May.
21 - Boris was sacked.
25 I take your point Punter but my views are unchanged from before Ming’s election in that he should be a temporary leader to steady the ship for a period of around 18 months .
28 You do post nothing but claptrap Yellow Peril I am waiting an informed response with your prospects for May’s locals tom our exchange of posts yesterday .
39. “But 18% is high by usual standards” - not really. The figures for the Lib Dem share of the ICM poll in the December a year and a half after the general election are:
Dec 1980: 13% (I had to use MORI for this as ICM don’t go back far enough)
Dec 1984: 26%
Dec 1988: 12%
Dec 1993: 23%
Dec 1998: 16%
Dec 2002: 23%
A curiously consistent 8-year cycle, but entirely coincidental. It does however disprove their being any ‘usual standard’. 18% is pretty central at this stage, but if the comparable figures show anything, it’s that they’re not much help in predicting where the party will be at the next election.
39. Bromley evidence for better reorganisation? Difficult to square with the fact that the Lib Dems didn’t realise until the very last minute that they were close to winning, isn’t it?
44. You think that do you. It takes time to get the momentum to move from third to nearly overturn a massive majority like that. Besides acknowledging it would only have rallied the Tories. That sais I doubt CCHQ will ever allow that again. Expect a Lord Rennard like do as I bloody well say operation with regard to a local constituency party in a Conservative held or Tory winnable seat next time. Course if it’s Lab-Lib fight don’t expect they’ll be too hard on them.
I predict the lib dems will be back to running a few parish councils in ten yrs where they can act out their wishy washy fluffy sanctimonious rubbish to their heart’s content. I shudder to think this bunch of jokers would be let loose on anything important
35 Roger, I’m shocked! And you ticked me off for being rude about the former MP for Peterborough.
Shame on you!!
30 - and nothing is inconsistent with what I said earlier today!
Several were in talks I was and for a couple of good reasons they didnt jump ship.(One was given a front bench position!). If things get worse in the Lib Dems I am sure they will be knocking on the door of CCHQ again.
48 Rik W- Please make it a New Year resolution to change the bloody record about “I knew they would jump ship but didn’t” what a load of crap.
I knew that I was better looking than Brad Pitt, more intelligent than Einstein and had the voice of Barry White but I thought I would slum it writing on PBc anyway.
For Gods sake give it up and concentrate on your shambles of a party first, you have many problems in house without worrying about the Lib Dems. You’re really starting to put even my glass eye to sleep with your nonsense.
12 Extraordinary … what has Marcus Wood got to do with this!
I am aware all parties parachute party hacks into safe seats — the point is that it is a perversion of the democratic process, whether it is done by the oranges, the reds or the blues.
David Penhaligon was initially denied selection as a Liberal candidate for a West Country seat because of his strong Cornish accent. I remember in Penahligon’s obituary there was a nice quote from him saying that he was the only MP with an accent from that part of the world and it was important that people with that distinctive accent were in Parliament.
Lembit should NOT represent the Liberal Democrat interest in Montgomeryshire, not because he is a half-witted, womanizing buffon, but because he has absolutely nothing in common with that part of the world — which is a largely Nonconformist, Radical & (in the Western parts) Welsh-speaking tradition.
I once “shared” a girlfriend with Lembit Opik*. By all accounts he’s an OK kind of guy: likes women, bit of a lad, charming but occasionally goofy. Do we really want to drive anyone with any personality out of politics?
*She dumped both of us.
Tories the party of working people.
Cameron’s new year message is spot on. Bring on Useless Brown and 2007!
51. Maybe Sean he can arrange the other Cheeky Girl for you?
I agree, while I deplore his bad behaviour I don’t see why he should have to resign over it.
46. That sounds a bit bitter and twisted and not conducive to rational argument.
51 “…bit of a lad …”
Well, he’s actually 42 next birthday, which is old to be “a bit of a lad.”
If Lembit was representing an area with which he had some connection — say County Down or the Asteroid Belt — that’s fine by me.
50 - Perhaps he should have tried to become a LibDem MP in his home town? Oh whoops, he can’t because the LibDems don’t operate there.
55. Re Next year’s Welsh Assembly any predictions.
Evening all :). In an attempt to leave some of the predictable vitriol on here behind, a (hopefully) balanced view of the Party’s prospects next year.
In truth, I don’t know. I’d rather try and work out the winner of the Grand National now.
The LDs are rarely the master of their destiny and even when they try to be (as with the removal of CK) it doesn’t go smoothly. How do you persuade a leader to go when that leader doesn’t weant to go? It took the Conservatives more than a decade to recover from the actions of November 1990 and it may take the LDs time to recover from the ousting of CK.
Short of a disaster in either of the other parties, a helpful by-election or two might be the “best case” scenario for the party. By helpful I mean a by-election in which the Party will gain headway whether winning or losing.
May will doubtless be a mixed bag for the LDs - some progress in Scotland and Wales but losses especially to the Tories in England.
Will Menzies still be leader this time next year ? Probably. Where will we be in the polls ? 16-18% I would guess but it’s only a guess.
I like a lot of the policy development - my concern is that we won’t have one or two truly dstinctive policies for the electorate but a set of well-balanced but little known ideas. As others have said, Iraq played well especailly in Labour areas just as LIT didn’t in Tory areas.
IF the party can spend 2007 developing three or four key policy themes which clearly mark us out as distince from either Labour or Conservative, that will be progress.
well at least the odds against Ming eyeing up any woman’s breasts and making some sort of sexual advance are pretty small - or are they!!!!!?
58 Winner of the Grand National is easy, Stodge. Dun Doire. Back it now.
Latest news on the Tory leader The Tories will become the party that represents working people rather than the rich and powerful, David Cameron has said in his New Year message.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6220395.stm
Re: 60 - I’m not convinced, Peter. He won the William Hill off 129 and that was a fine performance but he had a bad experience in the Becher Chase and I just wonder if it will put him off next time.
On the other hand, the handicapper may well give him a chance. I think I’ll have to wait for the weights…:)
61 - Does the man not value his soul, the Decil must be having so much fun with it!
If Cameron belives it its a miracle. If ground roots Tories who have NEVER thought this way transform within a year to belive this then chuck away your Bible(Koran, Tora…..) because God DOES NOT EXIST, only the Devil lives here and he is in league with Cameron….get ready to dance to his tune boys.
58&62 good stuff. Aren’t you leaving out gains from Labour in the North. Re Ming see 26.
61 - Sounds quite canny to me. The Conservatives have always been the party of social mobility and Mrs Thatcher herself used to refer to the striving classes as ‘our people’.
52/61. Indeed we are the party of working people. We always have been.
Labour are the party of those who don’t want to work and expect others to pay for the public services.
65. And Cameron and Osborne not only represent the working class, they are so representative of the working class, don’t you think?
RE 61, Mike Smithson, the Conservative party has always been the party of the working man (or woman). The Labour party have always been the party of the big union bosses and big business, and the Liberals have alwasy had ideals that don’t work in the real world.
Benedict, this is hilarious stuff, keep it coming. I suppose the Conservatives’ concern for the working class explains why they vehemently opposed universal adult suffrage until 1918?
Ptp. I have been meaning to ask you about your Grand National tip. I also fancy Dun Doire and we both know how his trainer can plot up a horse. However didn’t he foulup with Davids Lad? Is this one both certain to make the weights and run?
67 - Unlike the Labour Party, riven with inverted snobbery as it is, we do not believe that one must be of the Working Class to be for the working class, Kevin. Does that answer your question?
Of course it does, Kevin (69). It also explains why the Tories are on the point of reintroducing 98% income tax, since they no longer feel they represent the interests of the rich and powerful.
25 “I had it on good authority ”
as in the Ayatollah Khomeni? Or the ghost of Ronald Reagan?
69. Unlike Ming, neither Benedict or I were around in 1918…
67. They will do a better job of providing them with more oppertunity than this rabble we have running the Country. Labour have just s*at on the working classes by importing a new one from abroad rather than providing incentives to succeed in life.
No wonder those in Labour heartlands protest by voting BNP.
72. Silly Tressage! That would serve no one except make the lazy feel good about themselves.
Re 72, Tressage, What exactly do you think 98% income tax does for anyone, leta alone the working man? What actually does it achieve other thatn giving w*nkers a hard on, that they are making pips squeak?
Re 69, Kevin, who ended slavery, sending children up chimneys and factory reform laws in the 19th century?
DDC and Benedict - So the Tories are still going to keep on protecting the interests of the extremely wealthy? I thought Cameron was saying that they weren´t going to. I think he needs to express his ideas more clearly, if what you are saying is the case.
RE 77, Tressage, sorry, what are you gibbering on about? How does a 98% tax rate help anyone? Are you one of those *cough* people in favour? You do know that it makes you go blind?
34 - it helps if you quote the whole post:
75, 76 - IIRC Marcus Wood, the Conservative candidate for Torbay no less said on this very site “If Cameron wanted to introduce a 98% Tax Rate and renationalise BT, we would support him if we thought he would win.”
76. Benedict, is this a test, oh good, I like those. I would say Abe Lincoln, Ben Disraeli and as for factory conditions, successive governments of various hues.
Now, once you have answered my question wrt universal suffrage, perhaps you could tell me which party was responsible for the Combination Acts, the Peterloo massacre of pro-democracy protestors, and refusing economic aid to victims of the Irish famine?
65 - “The Conservatives have always been the party of social mobility … ” ROFLMAO!!!
Well, Stodge, Local Income Tax played very well in these parts - in the SW, certainly in the Tory constituency I fought!
So it was Marcus Wood, was it, who first started this particular hare running in the Tory Party?
Wasn´t he also the Tory who wanted to abolish the monarchy?
This really does seem to be a very pathetic attempt on Cameron´s part to win over the workers. I think he will lose more votes than he gains from it.
Is it Cameron or is it his advisers who have gone round the bend?
76 - Factory Act: 1833. Government: Whig, following the Tory rout of 1832 when they were reduced to 175 seats (only bettered in 1997 when they got 165).
84 - I note that in that election the Whigs got 67% of the seats with 67% of the vote. How’s that for PR? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election%2C_1832
84. And 2001, 166 seats, lest we forget.
76 - Oh, and before anyone trots out the old cannard about the Tories repealing the Corn Laws, let me reprint this letter from the Independent (4th October):
81 - I’m very pleased you agree, Tabman.
82 - Is that why you lost by 8,000 votes?
Do you see David Cameron as the new Robert Peel, Tabman, breaking away from the Tory die-hards and joining the Liberals (now Liberal Democrats)? Could be interesting….
88 - there was a swing Con to LD
RE 87, The corn laws were there to protectthe rural poor, and their repeal was demanded by the liberals to make labour for the factories cheaper, not to improve the lot of the poor.
89 - will he break away, or will they break away from him?
90 - Which was a great comfort to him in ignominious defeat, I’m sure.
91 - “The Corn Laws were there to protect the rural poor … ”
Benedict - that is a shocking distortion worthy of Boy George!!!
Source
81.
Well up the Rs of the establishment seems pretty mobile to me. Of course now Blair is the establishment!
But Tabman, you have to understand that the rural poor workers and the British landowners/aristocracy were the same thing. It appears that the Tories are now (or still) in favour of helping them. Rah, rah, rah!
92
The Tories pissing in the Lib Dems soup again,definetly time you replaced grandad
95 You might enjoy this.
Re 94, Tabman, you will forgive me for not taking everything said on wikipedia or indeed in any encyclopedia as absolute fact. Wikipedia is good, but that does strike me as a bit of opinion seping in.
You have to ask though, who was helped by the repeal of the corn laws?
99 - well, it was about the urban industrialists breaking the power of the landed aristocracy. But, ultimately, the Corn Laws were causign ordinary working people to starve - especially in Ireland.
Who the hell cares what happened years ago? It’s what’s happening now that matters. The latter part of this thread would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Re 100, Tabbers, what during the potato famine? you jest surely?
101 - “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
I thought you were supposed to be a teacher. Advocating ignorance doesn’t seem to go with the territory.
101. That could easily have come from the mouth of Bush or Blair.
I disagree, UK Paul (101). It seems very relevant.
Cameron is trying his hardest to represent the Tories as a nice, caring party.
Benedict is trying his hardest to believe that the Tories have always been a nice, caring party.
Tabman is showing that the Tories have been nothing of the kind (though concentrating on only one example; but there is no shortage of examples).
From this, the conclusion is that Cameron´s posturing is false; and that Benedict ought to recognise the Tory Party for what is really is.
104 - Totally different- they use the pathetic term ‘we have to move on’, a term designed to create escape from, and denial of their own mistakes. Seeing as they seem quite happy to apologise for historical mistakes I’d say they were the antithesis of what you suggest.
101
Exactly,its seems its the last shot left in the Lib Dem locker to start rambling on about ancient history,its about as interesting to the average voter as Lloyd George’s antics.
Still I suppose its a change from the usual ‘chip on shoulder’ rant from Tabman.
105 - Do you think any voter cares? No, and rightly so. Give them something of *relevance* and then they’ll be happy. Prattle on about how things used to be and they’ll turn away in even greater numbers.
105
Certainly the Lib Dems were good at putting themselves up as a nice,caring party in 2005.
What the electorate of course didn’t know was the person that was being put forward by them as a potential prime minister was a drunk and their current leader was happy to cover up and deceive the electorate.
103 - Using history to score cheap points whilst ignoring the needs of today isn’t a way to win votes.
You could use the same type of point to suggest that labour are a non belligerent party who care about liberty; as you can see, the positions of the past are of no relevance to the present.
Now that *is* a good lesson to be learned.
Does anyone know, of the top of their heads, roughly how many of the present day Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs were in parliament in 1832? Or have they all died over the past 174 years?
106. I disagree, they are two men with no interest in, or understanding of history. We might take very different views on what has gone before, but a short study of Iraq and Afghanistan from 1880 onwards would show up the absurdity of their aims.
105. Yeah, a party for the working people which we have always been in my lifetime!
It seems to have some people on here rattled doesn’t it?
I couldn’t care less about Corn Laws and Lloyd whateverhisname. I care about my Country now and it’s future.
111. Probably just Ming…
111
Ming & Vince Cable?
Cameron says 2007 will be the year “Labour’s dark side will come to the fore”.
Totally agree but thank goodness we have Luke Skywalker Cameron to take Darth Vader Brown.