YouGov: “Labour’s deficit 4% bigger with Brown”
March 18th, 2007
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Will the Chancellor be bringing on Deborah again?
There are two news polls in the papers this morning both of which were carried out by the internet pollster YouGov and both of which give fairly similar main voting shares. Only one of them, however, appears under the YouGov name.
The main headline figures in the Sunday Times with changes on the last YouGov survey show CON 38% (+1): LAB 32% (nc): LD 16% (-1). I cannot find a figure for Ming’s party in the online report.
The other poll, by BPIX in the Mail on Sunday shows CON 38%: LAB 31%: LD 14%. My understanding is that the fieldwork for this pollster is carried out by YouGov. BPIX is not listed as a member of the British Polling Council and so does not have to follow the agreed transparency rules.
The Sunday Times survey also asked the named leader voting question - something that YouGov has not done since March 2006. This question is testing how people would vote with Brown and Cameron named as leaders. The outcome will not please Brown’s supporters for it showed CON 41%: LAB 31%: LD 13%
This is in line with the recent Populus and ICM polls which both reported jumps in the Tory position when this question was asked.
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This extra polling deficit for Brown, which has been shown in all but two surveys where this was asked in the past 16 months, must infuriate the Chancellor’s camp and often leads to his Smith Institute colleague and Labour pollster, Deborah Mattinson, being rolled out to rubbish the findings.
Will Brown be perceived differently when he is actually in the job and all the focus will be on the changes he is bringing in? Maybe - maybe not. But as I have said repeatedly these sorts of figures will make the party feel that less comfortable about the succession.
For the Cameron gang these latest polls will provide relief that their air tax proposals, though not welcomed by voters, do not seem to have done their party any harm. They reinforce my oft-repeated view that the more their leader is in the public eye the better the Tory ratings get - something that will further frustrate Cameron’s opponents within the party and the media.
In the Labour leadership betting the Brown price has tightened to 0.24/1.
Mike Smithson
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Mike Smithson
Thes polls certainly not good for the Lib Dems?
Scotland on Sunday reports “CHARLES Kennedy, the former Lib Dem leader, is to be hauled into the party’s Scottish election campaign in a bid to boost its low profile.
The ex-leader, who quit last year after admitting to a drink problem, will be sent out alongside Scots leader Nicol Stephen on campaign visits, in the hope his well-known face will inject some star quality into the party’s election bid.
Campaign chiefs said last night they hoped Kennedy would bring them the same success as he did last year, when his work in the Dunfermline Westminster by-election campaign was credited with having contributed significantly to the party’s shock win.
But the move will also be seen as a clear admission that Stephen has yet to gain a proper profile, and therefore needs Kennedy to bolster his image.
A senior campaign source said: “Charles Kennedy is going to play a serious role in the campaign. He is going to give us a lot of days’ campaigning”
Read into this what you may
Good article in the Independent this morning - apologising for getting it wrong on Cannabis.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2368994.ece
It is something - but the damage inflicted will not be repaired by a simple article.
I look forward to a similar apology on Zimbabwe (etc).
Mike - from the story you link to, it looks like the BPIX figures aren’t current voting intention but how people would vote if Brown was Labour’s leader.
It looks like quite a curious set of dynamics comparing the Blair/Cameron figures with Brown/Cameron (I know the leaders aren’t named in the first question, which will of itself have some effect - see below - but it’s a useful shorthand to differentiate between the two questions).
Labour drops 1% but the Conservatives pick up three. Presumably most of Labour’s drop is also a Tory gain, but the change in Labour leader appears to prompt a switch from Lib Dem or others to Conservative. That’s possible; it could be tactical unwinding. Equally, it might be a symptom of mentioning the party leaders’ names: Cameron’s persona is nice and cuddly; Brown’s is the taxman out to raid your wallet.
But there is (at least) one other possibility - and we’ll see when the figures are released. The change of leader could be prompting previously abstaining Conservatives, or voters who weren’t that bothered one way or the other, to move to the Tories. After all, turnout has been well down in the last two elections and there were a lot of non-voters. Who turns out will be at least as important as which way swing voters who regularly go to the polls turn.
“They reinforce my oft-repeated view that the more their leader is in the public eye the better the Tory ratings get - something that will further frustrate Cameron’s opponents within the party and the media.”
Does that mean the worst thing Labour can do is keep talking about him, even if it’s to slag him off, in your opinion? I certainly think it’s a possibility - I don’t think the chameleon thing was a one-off in terms of how it backfired.
6: I think you’ve got a point Raj. Labour/the LDs have spent a lot of time attacking Cameron as a ’same old Tory’ e.g. saying that no-one will take the Conservatives seriously on health.
I’m probably speaking out of naivety, but that seems really silly to me: remind everyone of what the Tories used to be like, and let Cameron demonstrate how different he is. Surely attacking him head on, e.g. on the botched EPP withdrawal raises doubts over his judgment and competence, rather than trying to convince people he doesn’t mean any of what he says because he’s a Tory?
O/T. On the American presidentials, California has moved its primary to early February and the other big states may follow.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17635351/
This should favour any candidate who can make a significant break from the field in the four states deciding in January, but if that doesn’t happen then it will be all about the money and organisation. There’s also the possibility, especially on the Democrat side, that it could end without any candidate having a clear lead by the time half the delegates have been allocated. If that happens, there’s a very real chance that far from the party choosing its candidate earlier in the year, it could go all the way to the convention for the first time in decades.
I think that’s unlikely on the Republican side: there isn’t the strength in depth or ‘weight’ necessary to stop someone running away with it sooner or later. It could happen for Hillary & co.
Sunday Times, Lib Dem figure is 16%, at least its more than the 14% Others.
Re Labour Deputy leadership race
What do you make of this?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1530593.ece
“Henderson confided that Gordon Brown had contacted Sutcliffe to privately pledge his support for Johnson’s campaign, which he could not do publicly until the contest formally started”
[2] I’m sure that’s the right thing for both Kennedy and the LDs to do - let’s be clear that it would have been easy for him to leave politics altogether (and probably he’d make more money, too) - I wish him well. (Longstanding Peebies will know why.)
[5] I actually think that turn-out next time will go down. Cameron’s problem is that “presentable new leader re-invents party” has been done by Blair and people know what it leads to.
Both major parties may have more difficulty motivating their activists next time than ever before - and hence design campaigns that don’t rely on them. I’ll stick my neck out a bit further and make another prediction - that whatever the funding rules are at the next election, both Labour and the Conservatives will break them.
While Blair clings on these polls tell us very little. Who with any respect would tell a pollster that they’d vote for this paralyzed leaderless Labour Party?
A resonable comparison would be with Majors Tory Party in ‘95 after he resigned as leader. If I remember Labours lead then was into the 20’s and 30’s. Fortunately the important issues are all positive and at general elections this is what counts.
That the gap is only 7% is remarkable. Whether it tells us more about unembarrassed nature of the Labour core voter or the underlying weakness of the Tory project is difficult to know but I’ve no doubt that when Labour regroup under Brown Cameron’s lead will be a distant memory!
Andrea @ 10 — it does not seem very plausible. What is in it for Brown? It may well be some idle boasting designed to show how well connected these people are, that was not intended to be picked up by the Sunday Times.
O/t But when will Mike folow the No 10 Website and update that ancient picture of Gordon used in the Pb.com masthead (perhaps also updating Cameron’s with his new hair arrangement)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1527812.ece
11. IA - Turnout may indeed go down (though my prediction is that it won’t - closer elections tend to bring out voters even in safer seats), but I’m raising the possibility that it might explain what are on the face of it, quite a difficult set of figures to explain - a change in Labour leader has more effect on the Conservative share than the Labour one.
I don’t think Cameron will have any problem motivating activists if the polls are even close to what they are now. It’s already 14 years since we had a steady lead and even more since we had one on this scale; while there are undoubtedly people within the party who have doubts as to the direction Cameron is leading them in, this is trumped by the scent of power. It’s also a damn sight easier to get canvassers to go out on the doorstep or to hit the telephone when the voters are a lot more pleasantly disposed towards the party.
Funnily enough, I don’t think Labour will have that many problems either. After an easy win in 2001 (I know 1997 was as well, but after 1992 the activists wanted to see the ballot papers before believing it, and besides, there was the motivation then of kicking out the Tories), and a grudging win which always looked likely, this time those that are left will have more of a reason to fight for it.
p.s. I agree with you re Kennedy, though it doesn’t say much for Ming.
12. Isn’t it boring writing exactly the same posts over and over again, Roger?
re 12. The deficit with Brown in charge could Roger, of course, be much much larger. That’s what all the polls are suggesting.
13. John L. Ivan Henderson is certainly somehow connected to Brown. He was selected for Clacton on Thursday and on Friday he was already showing quotes by Brown congratulation for his selection.
However how connected and how reliable his tittle tattle can be is another thing.
17. These hypothetical questions are never likely to produce a serious answer. Remember when Clarke was touted as leader of the Tory Party and he added several% to their vote? The Luntz focus group was interesting. The only thing most agreed on was that they didn’t know what Brown would be like as leader.
It would be interesting to ask a similar question with Charlie Kennedy incharge of the Lib Dems. I bet he’d be giving Cameron a run for his money but it would be an illusion.
Meanwhile another Labour scandal reported…the resemblence of this era to the fag-end of the Major premiership becomes ever more compelling…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1530536.ece
[15] Well, I hope you’re right, David - low turn-out benefits nobody.
One point I haven’t seen discussed (tho’ I don’t read all that;s posted here these days) is whether Brown will be as relaxed as Blair about winning key divisions on Tory votes. I suspect Blair quite liked it now and again - it suggests he’s governing above party, but Brown comes across as more tribal.
12: ‘If I remember Labours lead then was into the 20’s and 30’s.’
Which was the product of naff polling, Black Wednesday and an imploding party making comparison silly.
If I was a Labour MP with a smallish majority I would be very worried that the ‘great white hope’ of the Labour Party is doing worse than Blair in the polls.
As an aside Vayker@ 3. The Indy makes the point about the development of ’skunk’, and the increases in the active ingredient within.
There is an argument to say that the problem is for cannabis the lack of proper legalisation, which would give a framework for control of the substances marketed and protection for those who use it due to quality controls, weights and measures (THC content, etc.).
Cannabis users are a group who are simply not going to go away, and perhaps they should be viewed as citizens who need protection, rather than this policy of a strange grey zone of ‘a blind eye’ which merely encourages the entry into the market of big time drugs gangs to operate with less fear who are growing ever stronger marijuana, but without the need to uphold any standards.
16. Roger Hugger. After reading my posts for so long I’m pleased that you’ve finally plucked up the courage to start posting yourself!
Mr Smithson, you make a big play of the “Gordon deficit.” B ut two things how much is due to Gordon or Dave’s names. If Dave and Tone were mentioned would “Cameron’s Tories” get a boost as well. I bet they would. Second, where is the Knight in shining arnour for them. Ok they decide it’s not Gordon, but if not Gordon then who. No poll has shown anyone doing greatly better than him. GB may or may not be a drag on Labour but unless they have a better alternative that the polls say is better then…………
***** JNN/PB Exclusive ***** JNN/PB Exclusive ***** JNN/PB Exclusive
JNN is reporting through PB a fresh ARSE poll of polls comprising MORI, CR, YouGov, Populus and ICM :
Con 39% .. Lab 31% .. LibDem 18.2% .. Others 11.8%
The PISSED Wells/Baxter Index with added SOAMES weighting gives :
Con 310 seats .. Lab 262 .. LibDems 46 .. Others 32 ..
Conservatives 16 seats short of a majority.
…………………………..
Sources :
JNN - Jacobite News Network
ARSE - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors
PISSED - Political Intelligence Seat Selector Election Determinator
22 Not only naff polling - if you look at the huge leads in ICM these are a product of low LD & Nats/others as well as Conservatives; Labour had positioned itself as THE opposition. Cameron hasn’t done that for the Tories, LDs weaker than 2005 but Others are polling strongly.
Around 4-5 million people who vote in next election will either have been too young or would have entered the UK since 97. Around the same figure will have died or emigrated - that’s quite a churn. I get impression that most of these new voters are less identified with the big two parties. I need to check the age breakdowns but I think both Labour and Conservatives will have a struggle in the future - and if we get further FTTP elections with majorities on barely more third of the voters or a succession of hung parliaments the cries for AV or STV might well become overwhelming.
PS. Do any Conservatives believe that the country will warm to George Osbourne during an election campaign when he will become as visible as Portillo did with Hague? I can’t see it but maybe I’m just prejudiced
OT. French Presidential Polls :
Ifop :
Sarko 26% .. Sego 24% .. Bayrou 22.5% .. LePen 14%
Ipos :
Sarko 29.5% .. Sego 25% .. Bayrou 21% .. LePen 12.5%
Come the next GE, there is everything to play for, (Andrew Rawnsley has a very insightful column today) the polls are favourable to the Conservatives, at the moment, but with 2/3 years to go, only a moron would be making a judgement. The truth is we haven’t been here before, a retiring PM, an in power change of leadership, all other changes have been forced, ill health or de-fenestration, nothing like this. By this time next year, we’ll have a better idea of where we are going, until then its all idle speculation, some speculation more idle than others!!
28 And they warmed to Robin Cook in 97 did they? IMHO the popularity bit is around the leader, the choice around belief in need to change, general thrust of policies and contentment with current government.
27 “and if we get further FTTP elections with majorities on barely more third of the voters or a succession of hung parliaments the cries for AV or STV might well become overwhelming.” - I think AV will still deliver the same kind of results.
OT. The SNP accepts £500K from Brian Souter, he of the Nazarene “gays can be cured” Church.
Souter also gave £1M to keep Scotland in the bigots column in the Section 28 campaign. Money well spent.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2036655,00.html
Mike, good article, and yes expect some sort of nonsense from Deborah very soon.
Obviously a couple of more polls will be needed to confirm that there has been no electoral damage from the air tax proposals, but so far so good.
Meanwhile the Telegraph has a story about Sir Christopher Evans letter to his shareholders on cash for peerages, more of course on my blog.
Re 11, Innocent, no problem motivating activists here! (Conservatives ones that is)
34
The reason there has been no electoral damage from the ludicrous, air tax proposals, is because we aren’t near an election yet. If the Tories go into the next GE with anything like the tax on flights they are proposing, it will cost them dear. Put those proposals in your manifesto, watch the votes melt away quicker than the ice-caps.
30. The only comparable situation was the 1955 handover from Churchill to Eden. Everyone knew it was coming; that Churchill wouldn’t lead the Conservatives into another election and that Eden would take over. There were also a lot of people who admired the way Eden had performed as Foreign Secretary but had doubts about him as leader and PM.
But there the (quite close) similarities end. That was at the end of a parliament; this is half way through. There the retiring PM was revered as a wartime leader (though his pre-war domestic record was at best patchy), retiring at the end of a long and ultimately justified career. Here, Blair’s still in his fifties and his reputation took a knock it will never recover from due to his Iraq War policy. I could go on.
28 - Perhaps Woger will have an agenda item at his next “straw in the wind lunch” about the electoral delights of Patricia Hewitt (she is very very posh, so Woger probably likes her), Margaret Hodge (she has lots and lots of inherited wealth and is married to a Knighted Judge, so that makes her OK with Woger and his “straws”).Harman is posh (but as Woger commented once, married to an oik)so she must be out. Now we know Prescott is going, but he has been a major player, then we get to the future Balls (those blinking eyes), Dawn Primarolo, Tom Watson and if the lunch party hasnt thrown up Sion Simon. Yes, Woger a great crowd and full of vote grabbing charisma.
What was it like on the Ceausescu’s balcony on that December?
28: ‘Do any Conservatives believe that the country will warm to George Osbourne during an election campaign’
I doubt it.
Perhaps he’ll be ‘promoted’ to party chairman or something like that.
Re 36, Coldstone, I don’t see why we still managed to win an election with the fuel tax escalator which had a similar aim.
37
That situation was hardly comparable, Eden also had major health problems, a botched operation etc.
40
You were already in power, and the opposition had not got its act together. Cameron is still an unknown, that is an advantage, this far from the election, as we near, then doubts will be raised, the Tories will not be able to risk a single hostage to fortune. The air taxes could become a major issue, also such things as 90 mile flights by politicians, even if offset, could be seen as hypocrisy: don’t you think?
Re 41, Coldstone and then of course *cough* Suez.
43
Suez was the straw that broke the camel’s back, but the comparison with Iraq, could be, change the leader and 18 months later, win a landslide victory!!
11. Why on earth is he not your Party President. no heavy workload just a licenced spokesman at large for your Party. All hatchets buried etc. I mean it has to be obvious doesn’t it.
41. That’s true, but not really related to your original point which was about changes of PM flagged up in advance. While Churchill wasn’t foolish enough to give a timescale as Blair has, it was still known that the 1951 election would be his last as party leader.
Besides, I did say there were plenty of differences - the health of the incoming PM is one; another is that Eden was clearly of the ‘next generation’ - Churchill was the last survivor of those who came out of the events of 1922 (though he wasn’t directly involved in it); Eden was 23 years his junior. By contrast Brown is of the same political and physical generation (actually, he’s 2 years older than Blair).
Shalom. I’m still out here in Israel which has so much politics of its own I’ve almost given up on the British stuff, for now…
But two things. 1. Even out here Blair is regarded as a vain and deceitful idiot. The venom seems surprising - it was to me - until you ask about Iraq. Because it is Iraq that makes Israelis - Jews and Arabs - revile Blair and Labour.
They think Iraq is a monstrous moral catastrophe, conducted by liars (i.e. Blair) and incompetents (i.e. Bush). They think it has made the Middle East less safe, especially Israel. This is quite an achievement, when one of the reasons we fought Iraq was to protect Israel.
Well done Tone. Well done Labour Friends of Israel.
2. Cameron’s air tax proposals (only just caught up with them) are stupid, myopic, excessive and will hurt poor people. Forget it Dave, and forget it very quickly. People love flying, they love cheap travel, and they wil savagely punish any politician that tries to stop it. And I agree with the people. There has to be a better way to cut carbon than destroying one of the greatest blessings - worldwide travel for everyone - that modernity has given us.
Moreover, even if you do impose these taxes, other countries won’t. Vastly bigger states like India, China etc are increasing air travel - there are new short haul Easyjet type airlines appearing in Asia every day. So the Brits would be the ones only left at home, shivering in the drizzle, and the benefit to the environment would be zilch.
Good idea Dave. Not.
Ladbrokes,affectionately known as “the magic sign ” are only offering 7/1 against David Miliband succeeding Tony Blair.
Do they know something that we don’t?
If Gordon Brown was “home and hosed” to take over at No 10 surely his price should be closer to 1/20 rather that 1/10 or have I woken up too early this morning ?
Gordon Brown 1/10
David Miliband 7/1
Food for thought over the Sunday roast.
Can David Miliband find 44 backers ?
28 - did they “warm” to Gordon Brown!?
42. I knew you would raise that, a bit desprate don’t you think? That is not going to change any votes at all, a business flight is a business flight!
If the Environmental Airline tax was to be implemented, then he would be surcharged on this. The tories could point the finger at the Labour party, when they incomptently mismanaged votes in the commons over the last few years. Mr Brown flew out to Isreal and then flew back due to the government suffering a rebillion. What a waste! I bet he did not offset that as Blair does not offset his holidays that tend to include a 1 day meeting so the taxpayer picks up the bill!!!
I think Labour have picked a boomerang again, maybe this has GB’s fingerprints on it again?
Re 44, Coldstone, interesting point, but we got out of Suez as fast as we went in, not so in Iraq so there the comparison ends.
49. yes. During the 2005 GE he was a vote winner for Labour. Now things can have changed, but in the past he has helped the party elecorally.
52. Yes i rather got the impression at that time it was a duel mandate of Blair / Brown to be fair!
53. That will be a hotstage to fortune in 6 months time from me!!!
OT Have Labour had their spring conference yet I don’t remember there being one?
The press are starting to count up Cameron’s unnecessary flights. Apparently a 94 mile one on a private jet this year. I suspect the rope that will finally hang Cameron will be from one publicity stunt too many. The press love nothing to deflate a hypocrite. Bizarrely I think the story was in the Telegraph.
31. Ted. I agree that personalities are overrated in winning elections-even the party leader-but Osbourne uniquely reminds people like me why we never have voted Tory. Cameron can blur the memory. I think the Tory history is still of of Labour’s greatest selling points.
Jack at 33. Souter is an interesting case. Anywhere else in the country he would be a disastrous endorsement but Scotland still has some pretty traditional voters!!
I’m surprised and pleased that you have found that reaction in Israel Sean. It seems to be the same thinking as in Lebanon. My relatives in Israel tell a different story but they are from a particularly reactionary community.
52 - I dont agree. They may have respected him but I very much doubt anyone warmed to him. The key effect was Blair, just as for the Conservatives it is Cameron. The Shadow Chancellor needs to be trusted at most.
55. noisy summer. They cancelled the spring conference. Instead they had some events around the country
56 - Roger what does it matter if George Osbourne reminds people like you why they never vote Tory?
I don’t think individuals with a pathological hatred of the Tory party are one of the key demographics for the next election.
57. well, if so, they probably never warmed to your beloved Maggie
OT. News that Alastair Matlock has already left for his Spring break in Perthshire cannot as yet be confirmed :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6461799.stm
56. I am in Tel Aviv, so you could argue the Jews I am meeting are more likely to be leftwing and secular…. but still. Last night I had dinner with a guy who said he was still a passionate Zionist, and when he was younger he was to the right of Meir Kahane! But even he felt that Iraq was just cataclysmic - not least because it has strengthened and enboldened Iran, who everyone here sees as the real enemy.
I also got the same reactions when I was travelling across the Negev - disdain for Bush and Blair, despair at the Iraq disaster. Everyone of course is pleased that Saddam is gone - but they fear that what follows will be worse for the Iraqis, worse for the Middle East, and definitely worse for Israel.
I’m off to Jerusalem now, so who knows. Maybe I’ll meet the Hassidim Branch of the Tony Blair Fan Club. But I doubt it.
56 - Roger, people like you aren’t going to vote Conservative anyway
Roger, a bit of wishful thinking by the Labour party on the airline principle. I think there is at least a 50% chance that it is may actually help Cameron as it gives him further exposure.
Labour are playing a daft game here, they have led the way in tarnishing politicians across the spectrum including themselves in the last 14 years. They are going to plunge, the whole system even further down a large hole.
If Cameron becomes Prime Minister and he was on political party business, then the tory party would have to pay for the extra flying. What is hypercitical about that? It seems a responsible thing to do, Cameron is ahead of the field in carbon offsetting already.
56 Roger. Re Souter … by your cashpoint friends ye shall be known !!
60 - three elections says they did!!
38 - “Patricia Hewitt (she is very very posh)” - she may be posh - the daughter of Sir Lenox Hewitt a leading public servant (civil servant) in the Australian Prime Minister’s Office and later chairman of Qantas - but she’s also Australian, so she can’t be that posh.
58. Yes it was cancelled due to the Labour party being technically insolvant! This was due to the ongoing sleaze inquiry into Labour fund raising from alledgedly selling peerages driving any potential buyers of honours away.
No intelegent person would want to be touched by the labour party at the moment as you would be covered in the same shit!
66. No, winning elections don’t mean getting warmed to someone. There’re other factors that can produce elections wins…trust, respect, being strong, being able to take decisions under pressure….all characteristics I would associate with Maggie more than getting warmed to her.
46. What events in 1922, the overthrow of Lloyd George you mean.
BTW Any news on May’s elections.
69 - the point is that both Maggie and Blair have devoted fans who love them. But they were both divisive figures. People grudgingly respected Brown in the past (though less so now) as a safe pair of hands they could trust etc.
Maggie still inspire massive affection in many people.
59. Max. I probably phrased it badly. What I was trying to say is that Cameron is going to great lengths to persuade people that the Tory Party has changed and it is now born again in his image. And he has had a fair bit of success! But in my opinion the lie is in his choice of bag carrier. No one could see Osbourne as anything other than your typical ‘Tory Boy’. A breed this country decisively rejected 1997 and hoped it would never see in politics again.
69. You missed the most important one - the alternative / opposition!
Maggie was lucky enough to have a lunetic leftwing Labour party to rival her. If Labour had not imploded and been sensible, they could well have defeated her!
“Maggie still inspire massive affection in many people.”
What a confession. ooer missus.
71. well, the original point was getting warmed to somneone, not having “devoted fans who love them” (what is this? X Factor?)
“Maggie still inspire massive affection in many people.”
Tony Benn also inspire massive affection in many people (now that he’s old)!
72. What is Blair if he is not a ‘tory boy’(Even if he is Labour leader)!!!
I cannot believe that the Labour party are going down this road again! Blair has not even left office yet!
Roger, i will let you into a secret - most members of Labour cabinets or Shadow Cabinets have had far more priveleged backgrounds than either you or I!!!
I mean that leftwing proleterian Tony Benn comes to mind straight away as having a deprived and working class existence! Typical Labour more interested in the past than the future!!!
73. Labour’s descent into leftwing lunacy was well under way by the mid-1970s, with massive infiltration of the party by communists of one stripe or another. It was Labour’s shift to the left that allowed Thatcher to emerge and forge a new, more aggressive Toryism in the 1970s and 1980s - so she was not ‘lucky’ to have a loony left opponent, she was in fact the direct product of Labour’s leftward lurch.
67 - quite right. It is not possible for an Australian to be posh; rich yes, posh no. However, whether she’s posh or not is the least of her problems.
However I think Maggie’s handbag was a vote winner
73. Tory’s descent into rightwing lunacy was well under way by the mid-1980s, with massive infiltration of the party by liberatians, laissez-faire capitalists and europhobes of one stripe or another. It was the Tory’s shift to the right that allowed Blair to emerge and forge a new, more aggressive new Laborism in the 1990s and 2000s - so he was not ‘lucky’ to have a loony right opponent, he was in fact the direct product of Tory’s rightward lurch.
could not resist
The breed referred to in post 72 is the “Masters of the Universe” breed not the “Born to Rule” breed which some believe Osbourne has a bit of as well.
“Roger, i will let you into a secret - most members of Labour cabinets or Shadow Cabinets have had far more priveleged backgrounds than either you or I!!!”
It’s not background Martin it’s attitude!
Perhaps it can be stated- a news story will break the regarding past homosexual conduct of one of the candidates for the leadership. This is precisely what happened to Portillo
78. True but Labour was not against renual of Polarise or looking at getting Trident in the 70’s. Labour introduced monetarism to this country in 1976 (Callaghan’s “candour” speech).
It was only once Foot became leader (1980) that Labour become completly unelectable introducing new voting rules for leadership elections, becoming uniliteralist, wanting to nationalise the “commanding heights” of the ecomomy, etc - etc. 1983 - manefesto was after all called the longest sucide note in history!
If Healey had won i don’t think Labour would have been so - unelectable. You are right to say the country had moved towards “Thatcherism” but maybe by not as much if they had the choice!
Vayker: Agree with Paul Lloyd - If the problem is the strength of cannabis “skunk” then the answer is to regulate the strength and force it to be lower. The only reason for the increasing strength is because it can be sold at a higher price and is easy to grow under indoor hydroponic lights - both of which are driven by the illegality.
Noone would say that the answer to abuse of vodka was to ban beer. Well, noone would these days, but funnily enough they did exactly that back when prohibition of alcohol was introduced. Strange how people never learn…
83.” news story will break the regarding past homosexual conduct of one of the candidates for the leadership”
yes, we can reveal that Chris Bryant will stand for leader…join the Chris4Leader campaign!
83. Presumably a rehash of the comment moderated earlier….
Why don’t you go and offer to drive one of Brian Souter’s coaches Wallace? You seem to have similar prejudices.
83 Wallace. Yawn alert …….. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
87. Intriguing. But these insinuations have been around for a long time. Remember Sue Lawley? Not sure they would have much effect now, unless there was some solid and lurid proof to go with.
Just waiting for disgusted from Brighton to tell us why these polls are invalid.
Wrong polling companies used,sample size too big / too small (change to suit),margin of error,current death rate not taken into account so the Tory lead is distorted,survey was done by phone or internet (change to suit),no allowances made for first time voters supporting the Lib Dems, Lib Dems recently had a Parish councillor elected in Shipton under Wychwood so both polls are completely against the trend.
90. The same was true about Portillo of course…the allegations had been around for years, so long that many people had discounted them. Then all of a sudden…
82. I don’t think Osbourne has an attitude.
In actual fact i know for certain that he kindly wrote to someone when they were out of work who was not a constitient with a signed letter on a theoretical issue. How do i know - i have the letter at home! It was a good motivation getting a letter from someone infliential when you are down on your luck(I said i was out of work!).
So i think whilst your entitled to your views i think they are a bit wide of the mark!
81. I did not like some of the tory policies in 2001 or 2005 and neither did the electrate! I would say though that Labour were more unelectable in the 80’s though! Think the polling will back me up on that one!!!
“Just waiting for disgusted from Brighton to tell us why these polls are invalid”
These polls are invalid as we are nowhere near a General Election.
83.
Oh no !
Please don’t tell me that Elton John or George Michael are “right behind” one of the candidates for leadership.
I’m off to bed
91. Haha very good, though I think you mean ‘disgusted of Worthing’.
Everyone in politics knows that ***** went through a gay phase and that it continued after he became an MP.
Doubt very much if it will harm him.
gordon just has brought deborah back. one of her lackies was just on the The Sunday Edition. someone needs to do a proper one page summary on opinion leader and circulate to the media.
it is outragous that they can be seen in the same context as some one like Nick Sparrow.
Can we get away from rehashed rumours first heard 15 years ago?
99. How do you know they were first brought up 15 years ago?
Ever heard the saying about smoke and fire!!!
99. About Kennedy being an alcoholic, you mean?
When Simon Hughes declared his previous homosexuality, the issue was that he had previously denied it. His honesty not his sexuality was called into question. A similar scenario would damage another individual’s aspirations to lead their political party.
Is anybody else of the opinion that Lord Falconer only announced this thing about Huntley to destract attention away from the sleaze allegations in the press?
94
Thanks I forgot that one.
96
Sorry a slight error with my geography.
Hughes got away with it because he is not a homosexual but a bisexual!!! He likes to pot Brown and pink!!!
89 Agreed but did make wonder who would break the allegation? Murdoch’s press - no, Rothermere/Dacre - no, Desmond’s - no, Trinity Mirror - no, Scott Trust - no, O’Reilly or the Barclay Bros? doubtful. Even The Sport seems unlikely. Odd, as they wouldn’t protect Royals, most Cabinet ministers or opposition leaders.
Meanwhile …. I’m off to lunch with Michael Fabricant and David Cameron to discuss the finer aspects of Conservative hair policy …. parting is such sweet sorrow !
Laters.
If the NHS is becoming a problem for Labour then it will play badly for Brown, who is seen as “mr domestic politics” and also spoke to the report (from I can’t remeber who), that essentially provided intellectual underpinning to the current approach as being best value for money.
Regarding Thatcher and warmth a few posts back, those with a misplaced romanticism for the era, should remember who she had to compete with, two geriatrics and (for all his organisation and strategic ability) a wind bag. She was never against anyone as consumate as TB. Which you have to say is bad news for GB. Cameron is more electable than Sunny Jim Micky Foot and Neil K.
105 Martin. Whereas some politicians simply like pot !!
Definately laters ….
Advertising that Labour have doubled the money spent on the NHS is surely bad politics from Osbourne. Very soon the service will be recognized for the excellent service it is at which point people will remember how under recourced it was under the Tories.
I can say from personal experience that it is improving rapidly and the hospital I’m forced to visit is opoening new state of the art wards at a rapid rate. For those using the service (at least at this hospital) I hear nothing but praise. Word of mouth carries these messages far more effectively than the Daily Mail who are not seen to be without an interest.
Cameron flys kite about green taxes - the punters are up in arms about it. It’s the last we hear of it; except that some caring middle classes who do have a view on this issue will have noticed it and maybe have switched toward the Tories.
And you call Tony Blair cynical?
RE: Hidden secrets - Is that what Blair’s joke was about.i.e not having to worry about the wife running off with the bloke next door?
108 “If the NHS is becoming a problem for Labour then it will play badly for Brown, who is seen as “mr domestic politics” and also spoke to the report (from I can’t remeber who), that essentially provided intellectual underpinning to the current approach as being best value for money.”
I think you mean Derek Wanless.
Re91 Mark Senior does not hail from Brighton….or Worthing for that matter.
110. The problem is that there does not seem to be a tangeble improvement. The Tories built new hospitals etc despite what some may say! The thing with health care is it never reaches peoples expectations. In economic terms their wants are greater than supply.
I need a hand operation due to a benign swelling - I am on a 3 month waiting list just to see the consultant - My doctor has said there will be quite a wait after that! So things don’t look as good as some people make out!
110 - well my experience was MRSA, a communal bathroom splattered everywhere with blood that wasn’t cleaned for 16 hours after I raised the issue, near death from overstretched and everchanging nurses not noticing I had pneumonia. Last week the conditions reported for returning soldiers in more than one NHS hospital seemed much closer to my experience than yours. Oh and the hosptial I was treated in has three stars.
Roger,
But in my area the Princess Royal (built in the early 90’s) is being “specialised” which means A&E and all operations have been transfered to Brighton twice as far away!
People just cant see where all this money has gone.
110 - 116. There is a hospital in my area that had a state visit from Blair. The entrance and lobby are spectacular. When he arrived people waiting and in casualty had been pushed out, it was as clean as a pin and Mary Ann Sieghart nearly passed out in her column.
The tiny little problem was the rest of the hospital, dirt, long waits, mixed sex wards, filthy toilets and all the other little extras such as patients waiting in ambulances so they are not booked in to keep up the targets, wheels removed off trolleys so they become beds.
Word of mouth is great, particularly when with a little bit of work you can find out how much is spent on PR consultancy and advertising agency fees as well as extraordinary slaries to the mangers for managing the managers.
People know that vast sums of money are being pushed in but where does it go? Not the piffling amount on drugs that could aleviate Alzheimers in England. However, if you are in Scotland…..
Spin along Woger, as you say the future for you and your little rays of sunshine is Brown - possibly to become, for the rest of us, The Turd Way.
Peter Hain Deputy Leader campaign website launched:
http://www.hain4labour.org/
Some new supporters declared: David Anderson (Blaydon), Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley), Mike Hendrick (Preston), Alan Whitehead (Southampton Test), Stephen Hesford (Wirral West).
He now has 33 MPs who publicly declared their support
117 Well I can - I’ve said here several times that people have no perception of what stuff costs. My own and my daughter’s diabetes cost the NHS a bundle - and there are loads of us.
Or the man that has a gadget costing £800 because he snores. I bet Aneirin Bevan never thought of that one
Or the loan to my friend who has revamped his house for his severly disabled daughter and all the specialist care that girl needs.She would have died even 15 years ago.
Then you play that out across the country. And we all take it for granted.
Oh and another thing while I’m on this particular soapbox. My other daughter has broken an arm three times and hurt it badly on a fourth over the priod 1996 - 2004.
On this wholly unreliable statistical survey of one, I can say that the way we were handled in A&E has gone fom beaurocratic and slow to swift and efficient.
120. But cleaning blood and shit off the walls is not so difficult!
Espeacially when they pay cleaners anyway!
Even Doctors moan about the government know and they have doubled their pay!!!
The NHS is not fit for purpose under labour, Labour are lousy at running things! They are serial incomptents!!!
121. Are you being paid to say that?
My experience has been lousy at several A & E’s - you don’t live in sedgefield do you?
The problem A and E faces stems for the lack of good out of hours GP access. People just turn up at A and E, knowing they may need to wait a few hours, but they will get seen.
You even get cases of people who cannot cope with elderly relatives at home taking them to A and E.
It’s not exactly joined up NHS management.
119. ops, it’s 32 MPs. I counted a MEP to get the wrong figure
The only time I have had occasion to use the Royal Surrey A&E it was excellent. It is also, of course, under threat of closure.
The fact that there are no labour votes here wouldn’t be a factor would it? What was it about those ‘hotspots’?
http://campaigns.libdems.org.uk/guildfordnhs
http://www.guildfordconservatives.com/index.php?sectionid=3&pagenumber=381
I doubt if anyone bar sufferers of Munchausen syndrome actually enjoy going to A+E
123 Day that is a disreputable thing to say.
Is it so uncomfortable for you that someone is treated well by the NHS, that you have to assume money has changed hands.
The problem in A&E in 1996 was that competant medical professionals were doing admin tasks (often more than once)that could be done by admin staff. By 2004 they had produced a fast track process. It was organisation rather than money.
My own experience of the NHS has been pretty good recently. A couple of years back, I didn’t mind waiting for my op for a few months, painful though ingrowing toenails can be.
Health care for my children, and my ageing father has also been excellent in recent years. But I understand that there are some dreadful exceptions.
Just think, had we all voted Tory in 2005, we would already have “cleaner hospitals”. On the downside, Howard would probably have brought in ID cards already.
Completely O/T but what do people think about Richmond Park next time after Zac Goldsmith’s selection.
Way O/T - I spent a couple of days at a secondary school this last week and was amazed at the facilities. There certainly has been money going into education. My own memories of school, an ailing state grammar, were of peeling paint, leaky roofs, broken windows, classrooms in temporary huts (built 1945), an outdoor swimming pool with a huge crack in the bottom to let the dirt in…
New Labour have done something…
130 - I think a lesser MP than Susan Kramer would be beaten by Zac. Kramer, though, I think will see him off. But I wouldn’t bet my shirt on it.
132 - it may be that Zac could alienate some traditional Tories and UKIP could stand on a “global warming is not man-made” ticket.
128 & 129 - my experience is that A&E was quick and efficient in the late 60’s; more cottage hospitals, local A&E departments. First few times I went to A&E was seen within 20 minutes to half hour. Decline in 70’s and onwards as NHS was re-oganised, bigger was better. Probably good clinical reasons but it meant more people going to fewer A&E departments so large numbers and not enough staff to triage or do the admin.
This seems to have been recognised with announcements on beefed up GP practices, local clinics etc but the implementation of the ideas seems flawed. These things suffer first because of budget management. Our local cottage hospital (buit by the Grosvenors and probably still supported by their charity) now does non-urgent X rays, arrive on time, seen at your appointment time. Also does care of elderly and support to people with illnesses like diabetes.
There seems to be a one size fits all centralised view - that NHS must be same everywhere - it would be good if we had a variety of solutions and areas could learn from what worked rather than be told from centre what the latest consultants report said to do. Choice isn’t just about patients selecting which hospital it’s about a variety of provider models. For all that Blair is blamed for he seems to get that.
132. I haven’t heard anything great about her. She’s no Norman Lamb. All past politico-celeb candidates Bell to Galloway have been successful recently. The voters like a bit of glamour. I think the odds are slightly against her.
133. Traditional Tories want this seat back more. UKIP, irrelevant if ZC brings across those “Liberal Tories” who deserted in the 90’s.
130 - I think although Zac Goldsmith is an interesting figure who worry some hardcore Tories this will be vastly offset by his high profile and personal resources that will bring personal votes and invigorate the local constituency party.
I think he will win.
131 - I’ve stood in on a dirt floor in a classroom with shared books and only a blackboard, with a thatched roof and no windows and watched/listened to poverty stricken kids eager to learn, personally disciplined, way ahead (in primary) of their UK equivalents. Yes, its fantastic to have the facilities, but what seems to be missing in too many schools is the education. Why do so many West Indians send their children to poorer facilities in the West Indies? Education.
Cameron’s Bin’s-Laden - with non-recyclables!
What do the team think as to where the polls will go on CallmeDave when his hypocricy on flights gets out and is added to the trainer-wagon episode with his cycling PR stunt? Equally, the heat camera recently turned on Zac Goldsmith’s house shows he is not an ecologist at all - just someone who has picked up a trendy cause and has money (literally) to burn.
Its official - Blair will resign leadership and Premiership together through a deferred resignation, remaining ‘acting leader’ until the changeover. ‘Week 1. Mr Blair announces his resignation as party leader, and consequently, as prime minister.’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6457597.stm
Blair states will attend EU conference on 26th June as PM. ‘He plans to attend a European Union summit in Brussels on June 21-22 as prime minister’ - Telegraph 16th March
Requirment for a special conference held at weekend for chanegover makes changeover date July 5th. ‘Brown kissing the Queen’s hand (or whatever they actually do) on July 5′.
Source http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,,2031711,00.html
138 - Nobody will care. Environmental “hypocrisy” stories are always flimsy and all they do is associate the people involved with the causes they are attacking them over. Everyone knows from their own lives that it isn’t easy being green all the time.
Re 110, Roger “Advertising that Labour have doubled the money spent on the NHS is surely bad politics from Osbourne. Very soon the service will be recognized for the excellent service it is at which point people will remember how under resourced it was under the Tories.”
Forgive me for pointing this out Roger, but up and down the land we have many people now experiencing delays in operations because there is no money for them, and on top of that ward and hospital closures. So peoples personal experience is getting worse. When you add that to the amount of money spent and the number of reorganisations etc. then frankly it will be a nightmare for Labour. Doubly so because they seem to have lost one of their key areas of confidence with the electorate.
138 - No doubt it will lead to a surge in Labour/Lib Dem/UKIP support and Edward Leigh taking over control of the Tory party.
I don’t know how many times Dave’s demise has been predicted on this site (virtually from the moment he took over) and there is an obvious frustration in some quarters that it just isn’t happening.
Re 117, Ah John Gale, you hail from my area!
Drop me an email, (see my blog for address: http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/ )
Re 118, Pot and kettle, could you drop me more details in an email please?
137 - The fact remains that you can have all the facilities you want but, if you can’t attract the right calibre of person to be a teacher, then education will be poor. Many schools are destined to be glossy shells of learning because the money spent on the visible has not been carried through to the more important things that you cannot see. Too many will not teach because of lack of discipline, an over prescriptive system and better rewards elsewhere. You get a nice office and a laptop? So what.
A decent government would have started with the teachers not the facilities.
I earlier heard Peter Kellner spouting the usual cr*p about “Cameron should be 15% ahead if he wants to be sure of winning the next election”. Has he not learned anything from polling adjustments over the last 10 years? He was trying to portray the usual doom and gloom arguments etc. This was followed by a piece from Brighton on people who wont yet vote Tory because they are not convinced etc! Typical BBC!! I would love to have brought in some of the people I have met on doorsteps recently who have switched to Conservative after years of voting Labour and Lib Dem.
148. “Everyone knows from their own lives that it isn’t easy being green all the time.”
Yeah, but we’re not all nauseating vicars preaching to people while we do the complete opposite.
The Independent’s public flip-flop on skunk today reminds me, hw strange it is how Cameron hasn’t yet come out with anything hard-hitting on the Fairy Snow problem!
146 Are YouGov still the Tory Party’s pollsters. I thought Howard axed them after the Ides of IDS. Who does Lab/Con/lib DEm polling for each party now.
146 - Amazing that the BBC never mention that Mrs Kellner is a Government Minister. Rather like the never ending series of interviews with the awful Fiona Miller always avoids the fact that were she not Campbell’s partner she would be totally and rightly ignored.
Leadership Election
Allegation of ‘gay mafia’ at heart of Labour reported in media.
http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/philip_hensher/article133348.ece
Relevance to leadership election?
146 & 149 - It’s quite sweet really. It means that the Dave-haters can keep convincing themselves that everything is going swimmingly and the polls are guaranteed to swing in their favour before an election. Well if it used to happen over a decade ago it must be true now.
Election result from yesterday Caerphilly CBC St Cattwg ward was Labour gain from Ind - Lab 820 Ind 368 Plaid 265 - 2004 result 3 seats Ind 1207/1054/844 Lab 1020/998/963 .
91 Blue flag Although born and bred in Blackpool , I have lived in Brighton since 1972 and Worthing for the last 4 years .
Also allegation of ‘Scottish gay mafia in cabinet’.
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:I3CSifivfPoJ:www.scottishmediamonitor.com/features2.cfm%3FID%3D21+gay+scottish+mafia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=in
152. Caerphilly. Mean nothing. Rather forlornly Labour are trying to talk it up. Truth is they are in big trouble at the moment as May approaches.
149.”Rather like the never ending series of interviews with the awful Fiona Miller always avoids the fact that were she not Campbell’s partner she would be totally and rightly ignored”
I think she’s usually ok, certainly not awful
Why do people change their user name? Nobody with any intelligence replies to them and their efforts are so transparent that we just laugh at how poor their attempts are in focusing attention on themselves. Pure egotism coupled with worrying mental problems I imagine. Maybe it’s a tangential comment on the NHS discussion we’re having?
153: “Also allegation of ‘Scottish gay mafia in cabinet’.”
Erm, the whole purpose of the article you link to is to describe the maker of these allegations (Mr Tom Brown, whoever he is) as a religious zealot and posturing, homophobic loon.
146. Kellner is a Labour hack and always has been.
Just noticed that Mrs Kellner is a Harriet H’s supporter
Who is Mrs. Kellner?
159. Did YouGov do HH’s poll for her at all.
130 - The impact of Goldsmith as a personality is overrated.
He is well known to those of us who frequent websites like this but doesn’t really have a huge public following. Susan Kramer is probably a lot better known to residents of that seat than he is.
What could make a real difference is his money.
Ah, but are they a TORY ‘gay mafia’?
Haven’t allegations like these been long-running? They came out against Portillo, Simon Hughes, Mark Oaten. What’s to stop the same now with xxx? in Labour?
“Portillo not honest about gay past”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/466187.stm
And against Simon Hughes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4649266.stm
And against Mark Oaten - from BBC ‘Mark Oaten earlier this month quit the Lib Dem front bench after his affair with a male prostitute was revealed.’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4651640.stm
It is inevitable that they will be raised about xxx? in Labour come a leadership race. I’m just honest about it!
160. Baroness Ashton of Upholland
Note that two of them claimed to be happily married and were living a double life based on deceit. This is surely in the public interest.
I personally find homosexuality perfectly acceptable and am just opposed to the deceit and dishonesty.
157 - No one gives a f*ck quite frankly. Well, slavering at the mouth ‘News of the World’ type loons maybe, but they deserve to be shot, skinned and dumped in the Thames. Anyone want to get together a posse?
Though not honest about the number of usernames. Yawn….
164 - Does anybody really care though, Felix? I’m a Tory through and through, but I could care less who Brown (or anyone else) may or may not have shagged in the past. In my opinion, sexual proclivities (as long as nothing illegal is being done) have no place in our politics and this sort of scandal-mongering simply fuels the cynicism that pervades our national life today.
Today I entered the gates of Jersualem. In a bus, but still.
Very cold here.
Anyway back to these bizarre attempts to smear GB with Sue Lawley type revelations. Who is this dude posting this crap? A Blairite anti-Browner? Charles Clarke? A nutter? Sue Lawley herself? Most odd.
On the NHS thing, the diabetic mother-of-my-baby got brisk but good treatment at the Whittington Hospital. But the building itself is a ghastly pit. My mum has had to wait YEARS for a fairly vital operation - but she has good GP service.
Yes, under Labour the NHS has improved somewhat. But there are still grave areas - like dentists - where it sucks.
The verdict must, therefore, be mixed. Not bad. Could do better. And when you consider that trillions have been spent - half of it on obscenely high salaries for GPs - then I think the improvements are no where near satisfactory. And I suspect most voters agree with me.
These issues are not so important when a person is simply in the cabinet or an MP.
But when they seek to become the leader of a party, let alone Prime Minister of the UK, it is high time that any deceit and dishonesty is exposed. This is what investigative journalism is all about. We live in a free country with a free press - not a Soviet State with censorship and cover-ups. It’s already in the public domain, so lets just discuss openly if we want a liar as PM.
160: Thanks, I have never heard of her. Is she in the government?
Re 169, AHM regrettably some people do. It will never gain you votes but will always lose a few.
That said what an even larger proportion of the electorate can’t stand is unfaithfulness, particularly at the “wrong time” laced with a certain lack of care (Wiltshire passim)
I personally have strong links within Labour, and am simply raising what everyone already knows within the Labour Party. There is a simple reason why xxx? didn’t stand for the leadership in 19xx. This is it.
Re 174, Felix, I thought it was because against Blair or a dead cat, he did not stand a cat in hells chance.
171 Better to discuss whether we want sad people like yourself posting on here under multiple aliases so that you can have a satisfying w**k when you go to bed at night undoubtedly alone .
171 - Crawl back into your hole gimp boy, can’t you tell when you’re not wanted?
173. I don’t necessarily wish to defend this oddly obsessed Felix guy, with all his aliases, but there is an argument, at least, to say that someone who has denied on record their homosexuality who then turns out to be a homosexual is guilty of deceit. And the public has a right to know that and judge the man accordingly.
There is also an argument to say that a politician’s sexuality, per se, is of interest to the voter - it informs the way they will conduct policy on family issues, gay marriage, gay adoption, etc.
As a voter, I think I would want to know if my future PM is homosexual. Whether that would change my voting intentions is up to me. It might. It might not. It’s certainly not the most important thing - for me as a voter - but neither is it entirely irrelevant.
The truth shall set you free.
179 -
Game, set and match…..
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Shall-Set-You-Free/dp/0952614715
Re 180, UKPaul, I was surprised at the price!
You forget that Blair was a complete unknown in 1994, and was not the favourite until xxx? withdrew. This more senior cabinet minister was far better known by the public, and the favourite in an opinion poll until he suddenly withdrew. Why he withdrew has never been adequately explained. Perhaps it will be, in graphic detail, in the next few weeks.
We deserve to know if a candidate for PM is a liar.
Re 182, Tony was not a complete unknown in 1994. He was shadow Home Secretary.
I am quoting the author you may have heard of - Aldous Huxley “… The truth will set you free, but first it will make you …”.
Also something similar said by Shakespeare.
ukpaul are you feeling ok?!!
138 - All it showed was that Zac has an old house that’s hard to insulate. Perhaps you think he should knock it down and replace it with a new one. Very environmentally friendly.
178 - the worlds full of guys that experimented at uni then were straight for the rest of their lives, and guys who married then much later came out. I really don’t care even if they’ve lied about it, can understand why - setting yourself up for excited gossip and demands for more detail by an ever hungry press. Probably better to neither confiirm or deny just don’t comment on allegations.
But enough on this subject - what about the Sunday Times allegations of cosy relations between ministers and lobbyists. Though not lobbyists could it ensnare Brown in his relations with the Smith Institute, could Guido claim a scalp?
Homosexuality would also, of course, go down very badly amongst a lot of ethnic voters - many Afro-Caribbeans, some Jews, many Hindus, almost all Muslims. And let’s not forget Catholics and evangelical Protestants, who can also be quite homophobic. That’s a fair chunk of Labour’s electorate in some places.
Is it right for a politician to deceitfully hide his gayness from these people, these voters - for whom homosexuality is a very important issue indeed?
Not everyone has nice liberal metrosexual attitudes like us lot on pb.com. We can decry the attitudes of, say, Muslims as homophobic, but their opinions are as valid as ours - and they are maybe entitled to know if so-and-so is gay.
Will Felix, Wallace etc etc kindly leave the court, the audience have gone and we’re shutting the lights off. A turqouise tracksuit will be waiting for you on exit.
Ok, Blair is quoted as being a ‘complete unknown’ in the press at the time in 1994. Can we agree this means he was not the favourite at the time.
There is no need to get unconstructive. Lets just stick to the facts and keep the discussion polite and civilised.
What’s the point in shedding light in this realm of political events, if we cannot do it in a mutually supportive manner.
Also I have read from a website what wallace posted above. Look it all up via google.
187 - I say! I object to my views being characterised as ‘liberal and metrosexual’. More a case of old-fashioned, gentlemanly discretion, which is not to imply that I personally approve of one lifestyle or another but simply that I don’t regard it as any of anyone else’s business.
Small point. In the long-run the newer house that is enviornmentally friendly will save energy. Thus it meets the goal, if you are really serious about it.
192. Mr Matlock, I withdraw my appalling allegation that you are liberal and metrosexual. You’re right. Somehow I don’t quite see you in a David Beckham sarong.
But I disagree, slightly, that a politician’s private life is entirely their private life, when it comes to something as important as outright sexual orientation. This does effect many voters’ perceptions, and rightly, because gayness might effect the way the politician acts in social and moral areas.
Moreover, as I said before, many Muslims and Catholic voters think gayness is totally immoral. Do they not have a right to know if their putative PM is totally immoral?
I think maybe they do, even if I abjure their views.
If you want a liar as PM that is fine. That’s your choice. Doesn’t the public deserve the same choice? The right to make a decision knowing the truth?
All good journalists know where their duty lies. Lets serve this end together. The great journalist and writer, Aldous Huxley wrote - ‘the truth will set you free’. Lets be united in serving this goal.
Allegations of a sexual nature are common currency in the world of politics. Everytime a male politician reaches middle age,(over 35) without marrying, its whisper, whisper. If that politican then marries, then its, ‘well its only ‘cos of the career’ I can think of a few in all of the main parties, that you could say that about.
Speaking of the very lovely Harvey Proctor does anyone know what happened to him.
I once bought a shirt from his shop.
Good Day
Harvey Proctor, I think he went bankrupt, I’m sure I read somewhere, he is in poor health, cancer. Still, any man who puts up a sign in his shop,’Shirt lifters will not be prosecuted’ can’t be all bad. In case your wondering, I’m straight, long term married, never had a same sex experience, and don’t want one.
198. What makes you think anyone is interested in your sexual background?
199
Your quite right, including my wife.
FELIX - shut up!
Blair - complete unknown in 1994! Bollocks! He had been the greatest star on the Labour front bench since 1992.
198 - One of the few things in Jeffrey Archer’s favour was that it was he and Heseltine who financed Proctor’s stores (a small balance against the crimes against literature perhaps). Bankrupted by the VATman in 2000.
Blair unknown?
He was the rising star of 1983 - 87 - and led a conference run by the Fabians in 1987 called “Beating the Blues” at which Charlie Leadbetter said (basically) “You’ve had it, you never will” and he said “Shall I slash my wrists now?”
In 1989 as Shadow Spokesman over a weekend he unilaterally dropped the “closed shop” as Labour policy - a sure sign of things to come.
I think it’s pretty common knowledge that there are rumours circulating about a particular person - surely people on the left can now see why Cameron’s ‘all politicians are entitled to a private life before becoming MPs’ line is sensible. If this particular person were to be leading a debauched life outside the boundaries of his marriage people would have a right to know that before voting for him but beyond that it’s noone’s business.
If any stories did come out, provided they weren’t of the Oaten variety I can’t see anyone being bothered.
are the Creatures of the Night out early today?
Frankly not the best thread pb.com had…
Feck this.
Sorry lads but I have to support Felix on a couple of points because we are all in a little bit of rarefied atmosphere here which doesn’t always correspond with reality outside the politically obsessed populous that make up pb.com.
a) Blair was a relative unknown with the wider public, end of story.
b) Allegations, if they came up and were rock solid would matter to plenty of people. How much impact is impossible to tell but it would not be zero so stop pretending otherwise.
Its a simple matter of waiting to see if anything emerges, if it has substance or whether Felix and alias is just hoping of allegations or ramping for whatever reason.
He may be full of it, he may not be but the self righteous cack spouted by some in response is just as bad.
Give it up.
Re 189. Felix, He may not have been favorite, but believe me in a straight fight he would have slaughtered Brown. If more were in the field, the only question that would arise would be whether or not the modernising vote had been split to allow a fossil through!
Re 191. Felix, what search terms did you use? (I E what did you type into Google?)
207.”If more were in the field, the only question that would arise would be whether or not the modernising vote had been split to allow a fossil through! ”
it’s not FPTP.
152. Mark Senior, did they vote on Saturday?!
Returning to article there is one simple reason why Labour’s apparent deficit increases with Brown - the answer is because Brown represents a Scottish seat which is being used to impose unwanted policies in England.
Brown reminds the electorate of the WLQ, Barnett funding, huge devolution tax for which England pays over 85% of this tax but NuLab continue to deny the nation of England (NOT region as Brown says) the right to have a referendum for a devolved English Parliament. The longer this referendum is denied, the longer NuLab will suffer no matter who their is leader. Labour’s devolution settlements for Scotland, Wales and no Northern Ireland are great for those countries albeit with limited powers, but England which comprises of about 85% of the UK electorate gets nothing, denied its existence, are denied life saving cancer drugs, students have to pay university tuition fees, our elderly have to sell their homes to pay for care while the Scots/Welsh get it all free thanks to devolution and Barnett Formulae. Scottish nurses are given a 2.5% pay rise thanks the the Scottish First Minister whereas English nurses have to wait years to get their pay rise.
For too long us English have been treated as third class citizens in the UK, this is why the NHS is a mess in England as every other home nation in the UK gets far more money spent on them. If Peter Hain says “An English Parliament is a threat to UK” then it should be scrapped. Once we get our Parliament back we can renegotiate unpopular EU and UN treaties signed decades ago, and if the EU won’t budge we can threaten to leave, in the same way as the SNP successes ensure that the Scottish electorate are bribed into remaining in a union they no longer want to be part of. Roll on May and lets stuff those hypocritical NuLab policians.
Some liberals on here are being very illiberal today?
210 Yes Andrea I believe so .
206 - I dont believe that personal life impacts on anything to do with politics (save for some charges of hypocrisy, but even then you have to take into account the way that the gutter media force people into covering up their true selves). I said that during the Major years, I said that for Oaten, I said that for Hughes, I’ll say that for any labour politician that has News of the World style vermin sniffing around them. Anyone like Felix crawls out of their hole, they can expect a consistent attack from me. Personal liberty is more important than political point scoring.
169 - hear hear!
It doesn’t matter if he is vermin (itself already an emotive and dismissive term) will he have a point if solid allegations come to pass?
212 - Huh? You’ve got some troll ininuating that the way people live their private lives is important to politics. Any liberal should attack that.
214 - I’ll also add to the list the pathetic bleatings against Cameron, Osborne etc about possible student drug usage. What sort of scum uses that as a political weapon?
216 - How can any point about someone’s sexuality be of any relevance apart from in the fetid mind of someone who thinks that sexuality is divided into acceptable or non-acceptable?
His type is vermin in insinuating as such, I stick by that.
213. Thanks Mark. The gain/loss is probably less relevant in that contest as independents were involved. However Lab managed to get their vote out though
218, Because it has proven to be so before on many occasions. Thats why, whether you like it or not.
220 - When?
This thread has covered people where revelations abotu their personal lives has had an impact on their careers.
Whether you like it or not, your lifestyle can matter. There are acses where it doesn’t cases where it does.
If you want to pretend thats not the case go ahead.
221 - Give me specific examples, when has someone’s sexuality been of relevance?
I said lifestyle…..
You aren’t reading.
221. Thorpe.
221 - Also you point to where it has had an ‘effect’. That’s different to it having ‘mattered’. There are too many who are prepared to use soemthing that doesn’t ‘matter’ to ‘affect’ someone’s career, in politics as elsewhere. The only choice we have is to fight that.
224. Ukpaul was talking about someone’s sexuality not lifestyle…are you sure you’re reading him well?
221 - Shouldn’t have been used against him. The people at fault were the accusers who used hatred of homosexuality. Any more you want to try?
225. There was the Rinka thing though…..poor Rinka, the real victim of that saga
226. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen though does it.
This isn’t about how we want things to be its about how things are.
224 - You aren’t reading, I said sexuality.
“This isn’t about how we want things to be its about how things are. ”
Things never change to how we want them to be if you allow the status quo to remain unchallenged. That’s why I will counter anyone who uses the old arguments and examples.
I’m back by popular demand! There are very graphic descriptions being put forward by a former rent boy. It’s described in gory detail. Similar to Mark Oaten, regarding B.
216 I think YouGov had a poll about social acceptance and views last year, This showed a major variation by age groups. Particularly striking was the difference in views between those born pre 1950’s (so people in their 60’s upwards) - so nearly 30% of voting age population, with a higher propensity to vote. Add to that muslims, religious people and there is a pretty large proportion of voters who would care a great deal. It’s not a foetid mind but fact that people are not all socially liberal.
By the way, WRT Thorpe I refer to accusers as the press not Scott, if homosexuality had been legal none of that would have mattered anyway, a perfect example of how, if someone is forced to live a lie, that lie can lead to a separate, but illegal, act.
Actor Richard Wilson has endorsed Hain for Deputy…frankly probably no-one will care, but it’s just an attempt to switch the discussion
235 I think Portillo’s chances of leadership were damaged in respect of the allegations then admission on his part. Didn’t notice Labour or Lib Dems leaping to his defence or failing to give the allegations/story publicity.
And I made it clear I was talking about lifestyle. If you read Felix’s apparent allegations they focus on the fact that Mr X is a hypocrite who is hiding something not necessarily about his sexuality in isolation.
He wouldn’t be alone in thinking that. Some Tory voters would like think so, some Labour voters, some LD voters, some who dont; vote. How many people may think that is not calaculable but its not zero.
The bottom line is this, Felix may be full of shit but the people to say it will have no impact are talking out of their own moral outlook. That is not necessarily the outlook of tracts of the British public. They matter more than you are me as individuals and they matter far more than the small bunch who contribute on here.
So the point stands, it can have an impact, the size of which we would have to see. It could be big it could be small. This is a betting site that just happens to be a dumping ground for people to express political opinion. To deny it may have an impact is misleading because it might, if allegations ever come forth in a substantive way. I’m not dealing in some moralistic war here I’m dealing in how it may impact, with how many people and to what effect we may never know because it may be all hot air.
237. Quite right.
238 - I’ve not denied it can have an impact, my position is that anyone seeking to use things like that is beneath contempt and should be treated as such. It doesn’t matter if it’s the editor of a national newspaper such as Rebekah ‘traitor’ Wade or a tinpot contributor on a blog, they will both get the same treatment from me. Doesn’t matter which party they belong to either, principles are principles.
237 - I did, unfortunately my reach is considerably smaller than the national press!
236 - I don’t believe it!
Lame, I know, - but it had to be said.
Andrea - its not always possible to change the thread, the soap opera develops it’s own storyline.
The rumours have been swirling around for ages - that’s why they were raised by Lawley on Desert Island Discs, presumably so a public denial could be issued. Yokel is right, if they were published backed by some claimant it would be a huge story and impact the odds.
My view is rubbish - there have been 15 years plus of opportunity for any scandal. Its just another consiracy theory feeding off itself.
Bravo, Yokel. A lot of pompous bilge on this board tonight. Let’s face it, name names, and cut the cack. If Gordon Brown was proven to have had a gay past, that might not matter to the highminded liberals on here - but to millions of Britons it would matter hugely. Like Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, etc.
Also, it’s just rubbish to say that someone’s sex life is irrelevant. If it came out that Dave Cameron was an adulterous user of Thai prostitutes, I’m sure labour would stay schtum. Yeah, right. They’d make an issue of it. And they would be correct to do so. Because such behavour would reflect on the man and his values.
We can pity anyone who feels a need to lie about their sexual past. But that doesn’t mean we should completely ignore the lie. Voters have a right to expect the truth from their politicians, even about sex.
I say all this with due respect for Gordon Brown. He has his flaws, but I think he’s a politician of integrity, he’s been a pretty good chancellor, and he doesn’t deserve half the Blairite crap thrown at him by Tony’s cronies, all that side guff about him having “mental problems”. Yuk.
I also have no idea if he is gay or not. I don’t especially care. But a lot of people do care, and they consider homosexuality immoral. And that’s their right.
234. “Add to that muslims, religious people and there is a pretty large proportion of voters who would care a great deal. It’s not a foetid mind but fact that people are not all socially liberal.”
Quite true, I’m sure there are plenty of people in the country who wouldn’t vote for an openly gay politician because of their sexuality. But a few points to bear in mind:
1. Attitudes have certainly changed over the past 20 years, and will continue to do so, however slowly. To (most of) the younger generation of voters such as myself, sexuality is simply not an issue in who to vote for. Among some people, being gay could even win you more votes than it loses!
2. Revelations of this sort weren’t enough to stop Portillo or Chris Smith being elected (amongst others), although in Portillo’s case it did probably still damage his career. Even among older and less liberal voters, I don’t think this ‘issue’ matters as much as some people here seem to think it does.
3. Most importantly, though: why are we even discussing this? This thread has not come about as a result of any revelations, merely baseless speculation and rumour-mongering. Until any actual evidence is provided to prove these allegations, any discussion is purely hypothetical - we shouldn’t be dignifying such smears with our comments at all.
Personally, I find it quite depressing how much excitement some people have over these suggestions; as though being exposed as gay is the worst thing that could possibly happen to an MP. If you’re going to spread rumours about a politician you hate, could you at least try to come up with some that make you look like less of a bigot?
It seems to me as though any politician with a high enough profile will attract smears like this sooner or later. It happened to Hillary Clinton, and it’s now happening to Brown. I for one find it deeply unpleasant, and wish that the people behind it would just grow up and find something else to obsess about.
243. Ted, yes, they’ll probably have an impact, but frankly this site will lose part of its appeal (at least to me) if it starts to discuss every rumour around posted by anonymous posters…there’re rumours about all public people, half of them are false,
242. Steven, I have a proof of the endorsement!
http://www.hain4labour.org/?q=richardwilsonbackshain&pageId=surgeries
Just been watching Cameron’s speech today; it was really poor for some reason. Though I don’t suppose it matters.
ok Yokel then be brave and publish these allegations on here under your real name so you can lay yourself open to being sued if they prove false . This applies even more so to the cowards such as wallace and felix who appear on here from nowhere or are on here already under other name(s).
244 - No libertarian should accept the use of such information as a weapon. You have to fight back against those who deny others their liberty, or are you some sort of a peacenik libertarian?
242,Not piercing enough-going up 3 octaves in tone,a shrieking ‘I DON’T BE-LII-EEE-VVVEEEEE IT!!!!!!!!!!’ is more the standard of dear old Victor Meldrew!!:lol::lol: (If anyone remembers the scene where he played a bell-boy who drops someone’s wig down a drain,I actually saw that scene being filmed,100 yards from Bournemouth town centre,in November 1991)
There’s also an argument for saying that, as the political parties and their policies coalesce around the same basic beliefs - capitalism softened by welfarism, basic social liberalism, etc etc - the differences of character in politicians become MORE important, as the policy differences dwindle.
Let’s face it, most people don’t get that excited at the polling booth by who is most enthusiastic about long term private financing of hospitals etc. It’s dull, and it’s boring, and it turns people off. The issues aren’t exciting. There’s no clash of ideologies, just finessing of positions.
But people do respond to character issues: who you gonna vote for - the secret gay or the cannabis smoker? That’s interesting for most people. Sad but true.
I hear a Scottish Tycoon has given the SNP £1m. Roll on independence for England, Scotland and Wales.
SeanT back in his finest “of course it doesn’t matter at all to me, but…” mode
251,You confirm my growing feeling that UK politics is heading back to the 1950s days of ‘Butslekkism’,when it was scarcely possible to put a cigarette paper between the two main parties-as someone who is,by and large,not that far left of centre,I’d be happy enough
248. I shall keep it simple and summarise what i’ve said and didn’t say:
1. I never said there were allegations, or that they were true or indeed whether they were going to appear.
2. I did point out thayt Felix may well be a ramper or a bullshitter
3. I pointed out that the response of many to simply say that that such an allegation would have no effect whatsoever where talking out of a hole potentially as big as Felix.
4. It was also pointed out that it depended on the substance of allegations IF they ever emerged.
5. My point isn’t about any allegation actually existing in reality. It is that, should such allegations ever come about and depending on their nature, that we can’t dismiss its impact as zero whether we like that fact or not.
Whilst other people may disagree with my point or be looking at this from a different angle, I’m not sure a single one believes I am saying that there are allegations or indeed that I am making any.
Is that clear or do I need to repeat it again with different words? I can clarify in any way that you want in whatever form or channel is suitable. You just let me know what you require so that you understand what I’m saying, that other people can understand, even if they disagree with it.
248. Steady on old chap, no need to froth at the mouth so much.
ukpaul are you a member of the Labour gay mafia? You certainly sound it. Just watch the news once nominations open and a candidate puts himself forward.
Are we going to have to put up with this on every thread for the next three months?
257. Behave
257 - I’m just picking myself up off the floor from laughing.
New around these parts Wallace?
258. Only if something emerged that might have an impact on the betting.
257. No he isn’t…but he does show disturbing signs of taking up the role vacated by Commentator, i.e. ‘the guardian of rectitude and serious debate on PB.com’
258. Alex, hope not, but probably yes.
255 thanks for clarifying your viewpoint except on one point . You do not say whether you condone or not the publishing of unsubstantiated allegations on a website using 1 or more aliases .
258 - I’m not sure which is worse - this or another three months of unremitting threads on the Labour leadership non-contest.
262 - Not at all Mr Wag, my position is to let anyone make any accusations they want as long as we can take them to the cleaners as a result. That’s the nature of the accusation game; don’t make them if you’re not prepared to face up to the results (which should be a lot more robust than little staid tutting and eye rolling). A bit like the Wild West I suppose but heigh-ho……
258 well we could go back to Cameron & hash which used up two weekends - its something about Sundays. Next week NoW reveals Mings secret trips in his Jag round the rural roads of Fife?
Problem is that the polls are static, Blair isn’t gone yet, no-one with any chance likely to stand against Brown, French election a month away, Scots/Welsh/locals 6 weeks away…politics on hold. It’s like the silly season but drawn out. Ideal conditions for scandal & rumour.
This whole debate echoes the debate going on in the USA at the moment, where the Democrat candidates are tying themselves in knots as to whether they should typify homosexuality as ‘immoral’ or not.
This debate obviously has more salience in an overtly religious country like America. But to say it has no salience in the UK is absurd.
O/T but for cricket followers Bob Woolmer, Pakistan Coach has died after being found unconscious in his hotel room. Sad aftermath to Ireland’s great performance yesterday.
269,I am shocked-to see someone die who I can remember playing for England when I was very young,reminds me of our mortality
264. I don’t think peoples private lives should be dragged up when they have no impact on their ability to do a job. Where it may be relevant includes where its, a) criminal, b) corrupt c) at counter with their public, political preaching.
For example if an MP was a wife beater, should it be raised? Yes. If a politician has been involved in molesting women for decades should it be raised? Yes
If someone had or has a private life involving their sexuality that they feel the need to keep hidden thats not really an issue in itself. If they had a lifestyle around that sexuality, however, brought them into exploitative or illegal activities then thats something else. If it exposed them as a possible hypocrite some people may see that as an issue, others may see the apparent hypocrisy as a sad necessity.
That is not how it works in reality, however, because I’m not the rest of the British public, many of whom take a different approach. The media wouldn’t chase a story if they didn’t think it wouldn’t make good copy for some or all of its audience. If a story comes up, its up to the public to decide if they want it to have an impact. Whether we like it or not what some may believe a story is a non issue, others may believe it is an issue. We needn’t go around shitting on the media either as politicians are adept at using them to suppress or raise stories.
People are by and large, allowed freedom of thought and if they react to a story by concluding they’d not vote for such and such. Its not for us to scream at them as if we have some glorious moral compass thats perfect. We don’t, none of us do. When it comes down to it, the mass isn’t perfect but by and large they aren’t bad either.
OT, theres been a crash of a military helicopter in South Armagh. It had better be an accident because if, speaking of speculation, if it isn’t it could possibly spell trouble.
Also OT, and I’m off to walk the spooky streets of moonlit Zion in a minute, why can’t someone just shoot Robert Mugabe? What a poisonous little tyrant. Ugh.
Shalom!
243 - did anyone ever chose “So Lonely” by the Police in the Lawley years?
Broon could always have responded with the Lawley story.
My humble opinion is that we have stirred a debate that will echo across the ages. Let debate be victorious. Regarding allegations I only need say Sue Lawley is hardly me - humble Wallace. Note they have NEVER BEEN DENIED. Just look to the future - ‘ things can only get better’ .
“Some liberals on here are being very illiberal today”
Are you referring to Wallace+alias, Yokel, Benedict, Kingbongo and SeanT all of whom seem to have a prurient interest in politicians sexuality or do you mean UKPaul, Andrea, Mark Senior, Rik, Matlock, SBS and Ted who don’t?
264. Its probably bull. I calculate its not going to amount to anything and if I’m right he’s wrong to hawk a story thats non- existent becauise we know that rumour can do damage even if its bull.
What I can’t say is that I’m right to calculate a) nothing will emerge and b) it wouldnt have an impact. If a story did emerge, even if I personally couldn’t give a fiddlers, my view isn;t everyone elses.
275. Pats Roger on the head.
Does anyone know if Roger wants a cup of tea?
Roger, DO YOU WANT SOME TEA? How about a nice biccie? Have you got your dentures in? I said HAVE YOU GOT YOUR DENTURES IN?
274. “Note they have NEVER BEEN DENIED.”
Have you stopped beating your wife, Wallace?
The suggestion that because politician X has not denied allegation Y, Y must be true, is the laziest and most ridiculous form of argument in journalism. Reminds me of the Cameron drugs ’scandal’ all over again… no one cared about that, and by all accounts, nobody cares about what’s being discussed here either.
I’ve never denied being responsible for the genocide in Rwanda.
It keeps me awake at night, I tell you.
Where is Snowflake when you really want her?
275 - Illiberal? Has Woger ever read some of the abusive bull**** that he actually posts?
This story is a no brainer and should be treated with utter contempt. Some of the paragons of “liberalism” on this site have well and truly crossed the line regarding Cameron and Osborne with rumours that have no foundation whatsoever - they also deserve contempt.
Yokel and SeanT. Cant you get the Sunday Sport in Tel Aviv and Belfast? You both sound so desperate!
278. Not worked as a Home Help much then Sean….
What is the reason for that ukpaul? Do you think that if you denied the Rwanda genocide then it might lead on to other questions of a more significant nature?
283. Roger, they probably have missed their latest Hello issues and so they sound so desperate about gossips…seant with his “I don’t care, but let’s make a long post about it” and Yokel with his “I never said there were allegations, or that they were true or indeed whether they were going to appear, but let’s comment on the impact of them anyway”
280 - I was under the impression that genocide in Rwanda was one of the many terrible events that Snowflake belived was a reult of David Cameron smoking a joint as a school boy.
You have nothing to feel guilty about Paul.
287 - But Paul is a teacher. Surely he must bear some responsibility?
281. “Where is Snowflake when you really want her? ”
should it be a funny comment or whatever?
286. Here we go again…..
There was no speculation on an impact, other than the fact there would likely be some impact amonts some people, big or small, if a story that Felix and alias was claiming did emerge. This was a counter to the outright dismissal of any impact as voiced by some on this site.
Everything else has been posted in response to queries.
290. Yokel, can you post your comments about a potential story emerging regarding the affair of a UUP senior AM and a SDLP backbencher?
I just made it up (I wanted to use Sinn Fein and DUP, but then I thought about my life), but just in case, I would be interested in your opinion about the speculation.
O/T - It now seems that even the Greens are using barcharts to convince the electorate they are ‘winning here’.
I got my first leaflet from them claiming that their bar chart showed they were on course to win a council seat in the City Center ward. Sadly for them my flat is in Inverleith ward but full marks for trying anyway!
281 - Personally, I feel that Ms. Nuala Byrne (an unquestioned daughter of the manse) is preeminently qualified to have the last word. I miss her almost as much as Sarah J…
The only illiberal one’s are those desperate for a cover-up. I am a born liberal for free speech.
291 - Or the Kincora Boy’s Home….Save Ullllsttterrrr from Soddddommmmy
293 - I was devastated to hear that the fragrant Sarah J was a ficticious character. At long last I thought I had found my perfect Tory wife.
Pb.com can be a cruel mistress.
130 - Kramer’s main problem isn’t Goldsmith, but the fact Richmond Park seems to have swung to the Tories in recent years, and the boundary changes haven’t helped either. She could do with getting a higher profile within the LibDems IMO.
296. Max, I thought you would have prefered Mrs Nuala…sadly turned out to be cross-dresser from Bedford. Maybe she can join Mme Luxuria here…
286 Andrea. I’d be surprised if SeanT didn’t take a bundle with him! You’d have to be a pretty sad character to be THAT interested in other peoples sex lives particularly politicians! I know that the Northern Irish are somewhat repressed but I’m surprised at someone living in Soho!!
Chaqu’un a son gout!
“291 - Or the Kincora Boy’s Home….Save Ullllsttterrrr from Soddddommmmy’
Very good!!
299. Roger, I think seant’ idea that voters should know their politicians’ sex lives quite disturbing. Try to think about the poor people of Ladywood…do you imagine many local people there supporting seant’ suggestion to have the right to know Clare’s night activities?
291. Yes I can.
It might have an impact, depending on the nature of any story to emerge (if it did emerge of course) and to say it won’t is looking at it through ones own moral window which does not necessarily reflect the wider populous or sections of it. An angry dismissal because it doesn’t suit my moral compass is not always the same as reality.
Looks familar doesn’t it?
Speculations on possibilities is not wrong, otherwise we wouldnt have a site about political betting. Hawking a rumour as a story is also wrong. Dismissing a possible impact, if the rumour actually emerged as a substantive story, because it didn’t suit what we believe is important is also delusion.
Right I’m off to watch some documentary.
For whom does the bell toll? Andrea I promise to convert to Brownism if you promise to marry me. Brownism not to be confused with Brownian Motion. No pun intended. I will join your Brave New World of cover-up’s, propaganda and sleaze, all for the price of a wedding ring.
Here Roger, have a Curly Wurly.
I could comment on your posts but none of them actually have any relevance to me.
I would if they did, honest. I can do patronising.
302. The point is that if you go on commenting on the impact of the allegations is giving credibility to them and/or continuing the discussion about it.
Is pb.com the right place to post and discuss rumours posted by anonymous posters and their potential impacts?
296. How are your lot faring in Scotland ahead of May, getting more or less hopeful.
303. Wallace, what about joining a clinic?
303 - Am i the only one who finds this post hilarious considering the thread?
308. it’s probably because I’m in a bad mood, but I found it as hilarious as the last sermon I heard at Church!
Sorry to deviate from the sex lives of politicians but someone (Martin perhaps?) mentioned earlier mixed wards in hospital. This is very misleading. I spent two days in one of these and it was a high dependancy unit where three nurses per patient are available round the clock.
It is specifically for post operative care and the hospital I was in had just three of these extremely expensive units. To have to have six so that three could be dedicated to men and three to women when half the beds would be empty would be a ludicrous waste of money. Each of these rooms only had six beds and they were all curtained when required. And frankly to be in there you have to be far too ill to consider the sex of the person in the other beds!
Oh go on Andrea - propose!
308. Alex. No!
310. “you have to be far too ill to consider the sex of the person in the other beds”
I think it’d be on my mind right up until the very end.
Well according to Wallace I’m a gay labour supporter and Andrea is a woman.
I think it’s safe to say that he isn’t a regular contributor moonlighting….
(he also has a nice line in aberrant apostrophes)
311. Alex, should I propose to Wallace? I thought it was up to him to propose to him..Wallace, doesn’t it sound as a Scottish name? Maybe he has a good kilt to show…
Andrea, Roger
Yokel has merely stated the fact that “if” such a story existed and was published it would have an impact. Media which gets excited about dentists visits, which side a politician combs his hair, are likely to be even more excited by such a tale.
O/T I’m listening to a replay of last nights archive hour on the Falklands invasion by Argentina, as reported by the local radio station. It’s amazing how a local DJ can step up in such a relatively calm manner to keep everyone informed to something he wasn’t trained or prepared for. A lot like an Elstree movie. “If you take the gun out of my back I’ll transmit what you you are asking…they’ve left me alone..now they are arguing…” Great programme.
306 - The conference was pretty awful but doesn’t seem to have had any impact on our support from what I’ve heard. I feel pretty much the same as I have for the last year or so that we will pick up a couple of seats but nothing spectacular. Still quite looking forward to the next month - luckily I’m having a bit of a career break so will have plenty time to get involved.
I’m also not entirely sure that the SNP will do as well as some opinion polls (and particularly the one’s they commision) suggest. I live in a supposed target seat (Edinburgh Central) and have had nothing at all from the SNP. They may think the ‘air war’ is more important than the ‘ground war’ but I’m not so sure.
317. Max, I thought Edinburgh Central was more a LD target seat than SNP
Yokel. “I would if they did, honest. I can do patronising”
Yes but you’re not very good at it. Read John O’s posts. He’s good at it!
“luckily I’m having a bit of a career break so will have plenty time to get involved”
Is that a new euphemism like ‘downsizing’? (I hope not).
PS. I was up in Edinburgh and Aberdeen a couple of weeks ago. What a place. I wish London was like Edinburgh. Cool interesting and uncluttered.
321. Clutter is the entire point of London. London is 2,000 years of clutter.
310 - Woger, most of your posts in their pompous arrogant way, merely identify you as a somewhat deluded champagne socialist. In this post you are talking utter garbage. Your Government promised an end to mixed wards over a decade again. They continue and not just in the way you describe, sorry imagine.
You actually do your cause no good whatsoever with this guff.
323. yawn, but can Pot and Kettle post anything not Roger related?
321 - No thankfully! Just having an extended holiday (including a month ir two in Canada) before starting my new job. I’d been in my current one ever since I left Uni and fancied a change.
New thread - Gordon back in favour on the markets
324. And can Roger avoid constantly talking about himself?
326. Ted, what “irritated” me is that his intervention (even if it made sense) just helped to drag on the issue. I think when strange names pop up posting “there’s a rumour about GB being gay” or “there’s a rumour about DC being a drug addict”, the best thing is ignoring them
**** JNN Exclusive **** JNN Exclusive **** JNN Exclusive ****
News has reached JNN that the Scottish Gay Mafia have struck again. It appears that in a lightening dawn raid the curtains were adjusted in No 11 Downing Street and the Chancellors entire feather boa collection was ransacked.
Reports that the head of my little pony was left on Gordon Brown’s pillow cannot be verified.
Leader of the Opposition, David Cameron, speaking from the Gay S&M Hussar Pub in Witney, said that he hoped the fur lined pink leather thong and gimp mask that he sent from his personal collection would be of some consolation to Gordon.
The Liberal Democrats were all unavailable for comment in Soho dungeons.
Mr O, fear not I still visit on occasion. Although since Sir Malcolm has retired from the limelight there is less reason so to do.
With reference to requests for Snowflake, they are in abundance outside my window pane.
323 - Andrea, as you have presumably not used a hospital, let alone one with a mixed ward , on either of your vists here, you have no understanding what Woger is actually saying. Sometimes you should avoid intervening. Woger and his Wogerismas are banal and irritating
329. Jack. Great!
I need one of your comments to bring the happy mood again 
331.”Sometimes you should avoid intervening”
Pot and Kettle, you should avoid posting all the time too. You don’t add anything interesting.
Back to the boring. The search words for google are homosexual, leadership, candidate. The other two words - use your imagination!
331. and btw, my comment didn’t mention mixed wards and hospital, but just almost all your posts mentioning Roger.
So your comment about me and hospital is totally irrelevant.
275 - roger, I suggest you actually read my one post. I said that these allegations are now being made all the time and that a person’s private life was their own affair. This is why you and others like Mark ‘Hug a Druggie’ Senior should stop giving credence to unsupported allegations made about George Osborne and David Cameron .
I went on to say that even if these allegations are true and published I don’t think many people would be bothered except if they were of the Oaten variety. That’s because Oaten was involved in some seriously disturbed abusive behaviour.
You may apologise for lumping me in with a crazed conspiracy theorist but I doubt if you have it within your patrician bones do such a thing.
Re 310, Roger, ICU may well be mixed sex, and no one would care. I don’t this was a reference to such units.
Woger, you presume that I live in Soho, but I don’t. I live in Fitzrovia, which is only half a mile north but is quite, quite different to that contrived den of seediness you call a home.
Also, I’m in Jerusalem, now, not Tel Aviv. In fact I have just come back from a moonlit walk around Bar-Hinnom, the Biblical Gehenna, the ‘valey of the shadow of death’. This Satanic dale is to the south of Jersualem proper, and its where the early Israelites used to worship the demon-God Moloch, by feeding him their own children, who were ritually burned to death. The priests of Moloch used to play drums through the ceremony, so the mothers would not be disturbed by the dying screams of their immolated babies.
Now THAT’S what I call a religion. None of your boring, namby-pamby Anglican coffee-morning-with-the-gay-vicar rubbish.
338 seanT. “Fitzrovia” …
it’s posh up Camden way these days !!
305. Last word….is there another forum for it?
Just because it doesn’t suit some people.
340. your hairdresser saloon
317. What a contrast you make to your Party colleagues in Wales. They are hoping to take seats like Delyn that haven’t been in their reach for twenty years in any form. Given you were both utterly destroyed in 1997, perhaps in some case worse than you. You got an MP back in 2001, they did not. It is still a big question why they have bounced back so sharply and you have not.
‘Today I wrote to the Chairman to tender my formal proposal of marriage to Andrea, to bring political unity to our glorious realm’
343. Great Wallace. But which Chairman? I should know as the Chairman should bring me down the aisle, right?
331 - 335. For those who have little interest in either Ms Short or Mr Duncan, your postings can be frequently off beam. My point is that Woger is talking utter crap over an important issue that concerns people, here, now. If you chose to support Woger then, do not get upset when people assume that you agree with him.
People here post some pretty bizarre things - you included.
345. “For those who have little interest in either Ms Short or Mr Duncan, your postings can be frequently off beam”
well, I often received nice comments about my contribution and their usefulness. Not sure if the same thing can be said about your comments.
Anyway if my comments are off beam, just say it, I’ll stop posting. If all threds are like this one, it won’t be a problem
346 Andrea I think there’s one thing any regular on pb.com would agree with and that is that you should continue to post, Dinky comments and all.
Ignore pot and kettle comments - we are all subject to the curse of being human and believing contradictory things at the same time. After all, the Liberal Democrats have developed it into a whole political creed.
347 - Hear, Hear !!
347- Kingbongo, thanks!
Maybe I’m too easy to be winded up tonight
185.
Herman you know that it means absolutely nothing of the sort. Red Ken’s house is just as hard to insulate but he’s done it. No, it means that Zac is so rich that fuel bills don’t bother him and he can’t be ***ed to do anything green in a major part of his own life.
Have you insulated Munster Towers?
341. Andrea. Smiled out loud!
336. Kingbongo. Apologies. Though you are one of the more acerbic posters on here you are also one of the more interesting. I shouldn’t have lumped you in with the prurient conspiracy theorists. I misread.
Re 351, Roger, I noted you lumped me in with them as well. That said given that you have been to the Lebanon several times but seem to know sod all about it I should not be surprised.
I am interested in the alleged website that wallace claims to have read because I do like to keep up with conspiracy theories.
I am constantly amazed at how many people believe 9/11 was an inside job involving a cast of thousands none of whom have blabbed.
If this tale is truly shocking, and loads of people in Labour are supposed to have known about it, it would stretch credibility somewhat that it had as yet not made it into the press?
Benedict. As you obviously havent been to Lebanon for years I imagine you get your information from google.
Re 353, Roger, you claimed Muslims were in the majority once, which shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation there. In fact total ignorance worthy of an MP who voted for war in Iraq.
I get most of my info from the Middle Eastern press, particularly the Daily Star and Haaretz.