Is Charles Clarke still trying to kill the Brown bid?
March 29th, 2007
The ex-home secretary and Miliband step up the rhetoric
Just when the Labour succession seemed to be all settled there’s another big move from the one of the chancellor’s most long-standing party opponents - the ex-home secretary, Charles Clarke.
In a speech to the Royal Television Society Clarke, according to the Indy report, rejected ideas that there is “”broad consensus” across the party about the leadership succession. “The leadership is not a done deal to be sorted out within our party and then delivered to a grateful nation in a gleaming package. A genuine and open political contest may well be necessary”.
In a reference to the weekend move by Brown to engage ex-Labour home secretary, Jack Straw, Clarke said attacked those who “publicly appointed their campaign managers and who prefer backroom conspiracy and plots to open discussion of the policy challenges we face”.
What Clarke appears to be trying to touch is, as the Guardian puts it, “the anger in some circles at the way in which Mr Brown has decided to appoint Jack Straw as his campaign manager before Mr Blair has announced his intention to retire, and that Mr Brown has now started to recruit junior ministers to his cause.”
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Perhaps Brown’s biggest flaw is his undisguised desire to get the job. He could be portrayed as being presumptive and at some stage that could be damaging. The British way is, for appearances sake at least, to appear reluctant to go for high office.
Meanwhile the Miliband mood music continues with a personal piece in the Daily Telegraph which seems to be playing a major part in promoting a challenge by the 41 year old Oxonian. Under the heading “I’m in tune with the ‘I can’ generation” the environment secretary tells us that “politics requires many virtues - organisation, ideas, resolution, luck”.
Perhaps it also requires knowledge of which newspapers are likely to be read most and have authority in your own party and here the Telegraph must be at the bottom of the list for Labour.
The Brown betting price remains at 0.23/1.
Mike Smithson
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Nice picture!
It is possible Clarke might be in the papers rather more than usual over the next day or two as a former Home Secretary commenting on the break-up of the Home Office.
Has there been any great enthusiasm in the party for his and Milburn’s policy renewal campaign and website?
Come to think of it, is there any great merit in breaking up the Home Office apart from getting John Reid onto the news bulletins as a radical thinker?
Gordon Brown wasn’t well served by those who accused Mandelson of trying to mount a botched coup to displace Brown as next leader; that smacked of a rather arrogant presumption that the job was his by right. But appointing a campaign manager is a different matter - Blair is on record as saying that he will be out of the job by September so on that basis there has to be a vacancy within months. If Brown intends to stand, it is reasonable for him to gather a campaign team and declarations of support in the same way that McDonell and the deputy leadership candidates have. A formal declaration of candidacy wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
So the idea that “Mr Brown has decided to appoint Jack Straw as his campaign manager before Mr Blair has announced his intention to retire” is just plain wrong - Blair made that intention known last autumn.
There are no doubt questions over the way in which Brown operates and over his attractiveness to the voting public. Lord Turnbull raised some of them earlier this month and the opinion polls have raised others. But if opponents of Brown want to block him then they will need to do better than to use failed cabinet ministers as spokesmen, and especially ones who went with as much ill grace as Charles Clarke; whether or not his points have merit, they will still have an undercurrent of personal history that dilutes their potency.
Probably already noted, but a nice snippet in the Indy yesterday about how last year Straw said he hoped someone would run against Brown and beat him…
Guido was destroyed on Newsnight last night. He came across as a smug, self-important twat. Paxo was withering and the ever enjoyable Michael White took him apart. He is just a Tory gossip-monger - like the faux-slip about “Levy’s Trial”, as if it were fact.
On the Mori poll - interesting to see Lab ahead 39-37 on stated intention but loose out on ‘certain to vote’. If Labour can get the vote out, then things may not be as bad as we think.
Oh, and Clarke has made a total fool of himself in recent months. He is an intelligent man and he must have realised that he had blown his chances of a cabinet comeback when he first had a pop at Gordon last year. He is now clearly desperate that ABG get the top prise so that him and his sidekick Milburn should comeback. No chance, he’s blown it. To criticise GB for signing up supporters is PATHETIC. Put up or SHUT UP Clarke, you arse.
RedFlump depends whether you think every natural Tory in the country turned Labour in 97 or just stayed home. Staying home matters.
re 6. Redflump - of course you are right - if Labour can get its vote out then things might not be as bad as you think. Alas Labour has polled more than its actual votes in every general election since 1983. So many more people say they will vote for the party than will actually do so.
I’ve just caught up with Newsnight and feel a tad sorry for Paul Staines. He did not help himself by not revealing his face and in some of his responses but you cannot but think that this was a stitch-up by the established media.
8. Mike, certainly agree with you re: the Labour vote. In 1992, when much of the media thought Labour would win, the Tories really got their vote out becasue they were frightened of the alternative. I will assume that the next GE will also be very close and ALL party machines will do everything in their pwers to get their supporters to the polls.
Regarding Paul “Shit” Staines - he cannot have it both ways. He cannot bandy gossip about as if it were fact, and then hide away when someone (like Paxo) pulls him up for it. To accuse Paxo (I mean, come on - PAXO!) of being an establishment poodle is risible - especially when Mr Staines is part of the very establishment he purports to distain.
I recall the Democrats really got their vote out in 2004 - sadly the Repubs did it even better!
Shock - I think Gordon Brown comes across really well on radio!
Michael White is a smug, self-important twat. Period. Only enjoyed by similar.
Just as bad as Hitchens on the opposite side of the fence. Probably worse as he has barely disguised contempt for the public as opposed to Hitchens’ faux ‘man of the people’ act.
11. ukpaul. There is no need for that. I like MW and I am not a ’smug self-improtant twat’. The only one who fitted that epithet last night was Guido, I’m afraid. He can dish it out, but he can’t take it.
12 - Don’t start what you can’t take yourself. QED.
Disn’t watch the programme last night so I can’t discuss it.
12. Oh Paul, I have a much thicker skin than dear Guido. Don’t get so het up about so little
Guido’s main point was that the commentariat has an unhealthy relationship with politicians. He claims that holding politicains ‘to account’ can only go so far, or access is refused. And he is isn’t 50%, or 70% right—that assertion is 100% right. (If you think that needs proving, maybe you shouldn’t be on a political website).
A more interesting discussion would be the extent to which it would be healthy to ‘undermine’ politicians at a time when their standing is low, and voter apathy a big issue.
To answer the question on the Clarke/Milburn website: it had a massive traffic in the early days - they claim 2000 hits per minute at the peak, and as a contributor I was struggling in a sea of “someone has replied to your message” notifications in my email box. Things have quietened down but they’re still getting a fair variety of contributions. They’re now talking of restructuring the site for thhe next phase - see
http://www.the2020vision.co.uk/
I don’t think this should be interpreted as mass backing for a leadership bid. But people are quite keen to have a good debate, which is why I supported it in the first place. Not everything that politicians do is a cunning plot.
Incidentally, I agree with David Herdson that there’s nothing odd or unreasonable about Gordon appointing a campaign manager at this point - it’d be silly to pretend there was no leadership election pending.
I think Milidand should probably avoid being associated with the Clarke brigade if he’s serious to run and win….
Clarke didn’t just attack Gordon this time, but also McD, Meacher, Johnson, Hain, Benn, Cruddas, Hazel, Harriet and all those standing for something.
4.”Gordon Brown wasn’t well served by those who accused Mandelson of trying to mount a botched coup to displace Brown as next leader”
I loved this little piece from Glasgow Daily Record “No idea what all the fuss is about. We’re talking about a bloke with a chequered political history, two forced resignations, a long record of dodgy decisions and about as much public support as George Bush at a CND rally. Having Mandelson speak out against you isn’t an attack, it’s an endorsement. ”
Finally, tonight on Question Time: Hazel Blears, Sayeeda Warsi, George Carey, Yvonne Thompson, Nigel Farage
17. Hazel Blears and Nigel Fararge. Joy of joys.
Off topic (sorry), it looks like there’s another leadership election in the offing, and one that could be far more glamorous than Labour’s. There will certainly be more hats involved.
The Monster Raving Loony Party’s deputy leader, Boney Maroney, has stated that she intends to stand down at the next Party Conference and has called on Alan (”Howling Laud”) Hope to become Life-time President so that the party can hold a leadership election to make way for the next generation.
All this requires for a change to the party constitution, which, unbelievably (or, given that it’s the Loony Party, entirely believably) doesn’t allow for Leadership Elections at all!
As it stands my money would be on the current Deputy Leader to become the next (and first elected!) Loony leader.
http://omrlp.com/2007/03/28/boneys-last-stand/ for her statement.
Jack W thanks for the New york Post article on the last post. So sadly true, unfortunately the sun isn’t over the yard arm so no gin, will have to make do with rum, fancy splicing the mainbrace Jack old chap ;).
11. ‘Michael White is a smug, self-important twat. Period. Only enjoyed by similar’.
Is this the level of argument in the teaching profession these days?
As it happens someone who hides their identity as Guido did last night fits the description of ’self important twat’ perfectly! Against Paxman and White he looked seriously third division. That he chose to hide his identity under those circumstances made him a laughing stock!
O/T France - new polls
BVA for regional press (fieldwork 26/27 march)
sarkozy 28 (-3)
royal 27 (+3)
bayrou 20 (+3)
le pen (-1)
second round sarkozy 51(-3) royal 49(+3)
Ipsos tracking poll (fieldwork 26-28 march)
sarkozy 31 (+0.5)
royal 24.5 (-05)
bayrou 18 (-0.5)
le pen 12.5 (-0.5)
second round
sarkozy 53.5 (+0.5)royal 46.5 (-0.5)
sarkozy 48.5 (+0.5) bayrou 51.5 (-0.5)
Apparently opposite moves in those two polls. The very big moves in the BVA polls seem a bit strange but the results are near the average of other pollsters (especially for bayrou and sarkozy).
What is worrying for bayrou is that his biggest asset (his capacity to beat sarkozy in a second round) seems to slowly disappear (Ipsos TP gave him a 55/45 edge two weeks ago).
We still need one or two more days to assess the impact on the polls that the tuesday night “riot” in Paris (in Gare du Nord station) will have.
19 And you think Betfair are going to open a market on that?
The problem about personal blogs of Guido’s type is the same as the problem with the more vitriolic tabloids: they spread a distorted and cynical view of politics, in particular politics of a kind they disagree with (Guido might be more effective if he wasn’t so one-sided).
Like Private Eye, they encourage the reader to think he’s part of an agreeable little revolt against the establishment, exposing all manner of disreputable behaviour by political opponents. But since many of the stories turn out on closer inspection not to hold water, people who are actually involved in politics tend to discount them all, even when they’ve got a genuine issue (I’ve been criticised in Private Eye from time to time - who cares?). So you get a disgruntled following confirmed in its cynicism without much real effect.
An independent-minded blog with no visible agenda that really did have a track record of exposing nasty secrets would be something very powerful and valuable. If it in addition sometimes gave a positive case for controversial positions I’d pay money to keep it going.
Having got confused trying to follow last nights ramblings a view disconected jottings - If old newspapers are fish wrappers what are old blogs?
Anyway £12.50 profit on WI vs OZ 60s - hard work but better than peters dog.
Does any one have an “Teach yourself Html” or whatever it is called site? Would be nice to go bold occassionally let alone tables.
Has Gordon officially announced that he is standing for the leadership?
6s not 60s
Even though Guido is right, in his belief that political reporters can become to close to the system,but he really was dreadful last night. Guido was inarticulate and poorly prepared, Paxo and White made mincemeat of him.
14 - I’m glad you think of WHite as ‘little’ and therefore insignificant then.
27. Also, he seems to have a bit of a combover going on. No wonder he wanted to remain in the dark!
23 Hope springs eternal…
24 Yes Nick, I think they also attract rather childish contributors who like to think the world is full of conspiracy. You have only to browse briefly through the comments section on any of the threads to be struck immediately by the amount of juvenilia. We get it on here too, but to a much lesser extent.
Guido provides a good service for those who like gossip and scandal. As a source of political enlightenment - nah. As a source for good bets - definitely not!
28. I was talking about Guido!
21 - Oh roger roger roger, didn’t you see that I was merely reflecting redflump’s language back at him? Irony missed?
25 Any more snide remarks about my dog, Icky, and he’ll be round to bite you.
Btw, if you find out about the rudiments of HTML or whatever it is, please let me know. I don’t want to become an expert but I find it frustrating not to be able to do italics and bold.
Cheers.
34. Peter, try
http://www.w3schools.com/html/tryit.asp?filename=tryhtml_formattingch
Peter - could he catch me - I can walk quite fast!
Guido was out of his enviroment, and in Paxo’s and White’s. Risky. A good chairman at a tribunal of any sort gives more rope to the inexperienced contributors (often just members of the public) than they do lawyers or professionals. On that basis, it would have been fairer of Paxman to give Guido twice the speaking time of White. He actually had about half. A stitch up? You decide.
36 Icarus. Much
Interesting article Mike. I have always taken the view that Brown would be divisive and bad for the Labour party as leader (or indeed chancellor) and this report backs that up. That said I think the only thing worse than Brown as leader of the Labour party is Brown not as leader.
You are right about Miliband though. Being in the Daily Torygraph is about as useful as talking in an empty room as far Labour is concerned.
21 - Woger is back, presumably popped over to the South of France for an informed discussion with the owner of his favourite restaurant. However, if Guido is third divison then the ever perceptive Woger is facing relegation from the Conference.
This whole subject depends on personal perception. Does anyone regard Alex Hilton (Recess Monkey) as an informed source? Probaly Woger, Nick Palmer and the other Labour hacks on here, but hardly anyone else.
Sir Michael White was exactly as one would expect of a Guardian journalist, smug, complacent and overbearing. Frankly, Guido should not have doen the interview and certainly should not have appeared masked.
Lets note 70,000 people have logged on to watch the bogeyman clip. That is 69,997 more than would ever take Woger seriously
37 david k. Oh do come on david !! Guido had six minutes of airtime before the studio discussion !!
Is it reasonable to assume that Reid’s decision to publicise the split Home Office now has been done deliberately to deprive GB of the chance of including it in the “first 100 days”, when all eyes will be on him.
These places aren’t always easy for spotting irony. The passages aren’t really long enough to get to know the style of writing.
A last word on Guido; He sounded remarkably like Iain Dale!
Re 12, redflump, I regret I am with UKPaul on this one. Make of taht what you will.
35 Thanks Parish - Now let me see…
43 roger. “A last word on Guido; He sounded remarkably like Iain Dale!”
I think that’s very unfair to Guido !!
Nah, not working. Try later.
Re 29, Redflump, Guido has no combover.
21. O/T (or perhaps not?) Reading a London evening paper yesterday I was amused to read an article on Cameron which contained a number of stock phrases and arguments that have appeared time and time again on this site…’untried chancer’ being one such.
Ah well at least no-one on this site gets paid for regurgitating the Labour spin script…or do they?
43- As you have probably never met either Dale or Guido, this is just another regurgitation from your copy of the “Hazel Blears Guide to political wit.
“On the Mori poll - interesting to see Lab ahead 39-37 on stated intention but loose out on ‘certain to vote’. If Labour can get the vote out, then things may not be as bad as we think.”
MORI’s “all voting” figures always flatter Labour, because they are not weighted by past vote.
Any polling company’s raw data will usually show Labour’s support as being higher than it actually is (except Yougov). The likeliest reason is that it’s easier to get Labour-leaning sections of the population to respond to polls than it is to get Conservative-leaning sections of the population to do so.
43 Guido is eally Iain Dale ???!!! after all delare sounds a bit like Dale and Staines has ‘ian’ in it - that’s why he didn’t want his face shown
(we can do conspiracy theroy on here too)
as for Sir Frightful Shite - ukpaul called it right; he’s worse than Kevin BrownGuire and that takes some doing. Give me Trevor Kavanagh, Andrew Rawnsley or Da Fink anyday
53 kingbongo. The fact that White is to smug what Benedict is to self promotion should cloud the fact that Guido was buggered in the discussion, a fact he doesn’t dispute on his blog !
Nice picture Mike, but Clarke has as much chance of de-railing Gordo as he has of being recruited by Abercrombie & Fitch for modelling purposes.
OT, was anyone else unfortunate enough to hear Thought for the Day this morning? The “Rt Rev James Jones” comparing gambling to slavery. Nice. Why is this feature dominated by religious figures?
Continuing my moan-theme for the morning, QT’s panel for tonight seems like the worst ever (Hazel Blears, Sayeeda Warsi, George Carey, Yvonne Thompson, Nigel Farage).
53 Hello kingbongo! Trevor Kavanagh is as one sided as you think Michael White is!
51. This Roger-baiting is getting extremely tedious.
53 - I was listening to Kevin McGuire on Radio5 a couple of nights ago. He described the poll in the Independent as the first good polling news for Labour in 6-9 months. He then mentioned the Times also had a poll but didn’t say anything more about it. I wonder why?
Why we need Guido when we’ve got the likes of Kevin McGuire telling it straight I don’t know.
55. well they’ve got one certified grade A nutter on the panel - George Carey I mean.
59. Indeed, and has Farage not received his certificate yet?
The Telegraph article by Milband was written, and has appeared in, the New Statesman. And that is a lot more Labour oriented than the Telegraph.
Summats up.
Saw Charles Clarke last week- he really was unbeleivably scruffy.
Meanwhile after the Cycling to work followed by a 4×4, the 90 mile bizjet flight form Oxford to Leominster another green flavoured fiasco from DC:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23390684-details/Cameron’s%20turbine%20is%20gone%20with%20the%20wind/article.do
If politicans are going to go for gimmicks like this, they really should try to make them work. In fact the energy required to make the turbine is far greater than anything it would ever generate on this site- so it is a contributor to global warming… oh dear, oh dear…
Re 61, Witan, the new Statesman is a Brownite publication conected to the Sith. Are you sure?
54 quite right Jack - Guido was foolish to enter the den unarmed and inexperienced
56 It’s White’s smug self satisfaction not his poltical leanings - Kavanagh might be an unreconstructed Thatcherite but you could never accuse him of being smug.
OT - Simple HTML Formatting for Beginners:
The key to understanding HTML Formatting Codes is to understand that Codes almost always come in pairs (an opening and a closing).
Also, that you need to distinguish a code rather than just text. This is done using the < and > commands. (Which is why parts of posts tend to disappear if you try to include these). Anything inclosed in a < > pair is considered code. Thus to put something in Bold you need the following code:
Some piece of text < b > That I want Bold < /b >
As you can see (hopefully) you need a b (in brackets) to start the bold, and a /b (in brackets) to end the bold. If you want to do italics it’s identical, except with an i instead of a b.
48. There might be some anti-HTML magic at work - perhaps our genial host could enlighten us? Is HTML disabled in comments Mike?
58. Max, have you looked at the Scottish Daily Mail?
19.”All this requires for a change to the party constitution, which, unbelievably (or, given that it’s the Loony Party, entirely believably) doesn’t allow for Leadership Elections at all!”
what are the procedures to change the OMRLP constitution?
[65] Without the spaces inside the angle brackets.
A pedant writes: The angle brackets live in upper case, atop the comma and the full stop.
“OT, was anyone else unfortunate enough to hear Thought for the Day this morning? The “Rt Rev James Jones” comparing gambling to slavery. Nice. Why is this feature dominated by religious figures?”
Personally, I think Thought for the Day does more than anything to undermine Christianity in this country. Atheists like Richard Dawkins should welcome it, rather than complain that they don’t get a slot.
Whenever an Anglican comes onto it, you can be sure whatever he says will be a variation on the same theme “In a very real sense, we are all guilty.”
For me, the final straw, which caused me to leave the C of E, was their decision to issue an apology for slavery. Quite why they think they have the right to apologise on my behalf for something I never did, never approved of, was never responsible for, and never benefitted from, escapes me.
Andreas asks what are the procedures to change the OMRLP constitution? They have to be signed off by Michael White, the Official Moster, and Paul Staines, the …
Clarke’s idea that no candidate should enter the race before there’s a vacancy is a bit silly. Considering that they’ve just 3 days to get nominations once the vacancy occurs, well, they need to start earlier. Otherwise many candidates wouldn’t even have a chance to stand.
70. I agree with you Sean (may God stike me down!). There is an excellent little piece in the latest edition of Private Eye where you can tick a box to issue an apology for slavery, the bubonic plague etc etc. All meaningless drivel, of course!
When is this fabled Welsh opinion poll out? Dragon’s Eye is on tonight, so I may keep an eye out.
You mean like this, Lennon?
70 Sean Fear. Well if the old Pope and the Queen can issue apologies for historic transgressions, then some CoE bod on “Thought For The Day” seems pretty small beer to me ??
Wow, it works!
62. Wind power generally is an expensive and pointless gimmick. Which is no doubt why your party is such a fan of it James.
Sir Michael White is indeed the Intergalactic Warlord of Smugness, he is the pompous self-satisfied holier-than-thou Guardian leader turned into human form. He is, in short, a pr1ck. Though I am sure he is a very nice man in private, etc etc.
That said, I didn’t see Newsnight last night, but I caught Guido’s package - er, if you know what I mean. I thought his thesis was true enough but somewhat flimsy, so I’m not surprised to hear he didn’t do well in the ensuing debate. Accusing Paxman of being an Establishment stooge is particularly stupid. Paxo’s one of the few guys you trust to really stick it to ‘em. And I don’t understand Guido’s animus against Nick Robinson, who seems a capable, fair and quite articulae journo to me.
Guido shouldn’t worry though. He runs the most successful political blog in the UK and he will certainly live to fight another day. The irony is that Guido, arguably, is already more powerful and important than someone like Michael White - who just rehashes government spin and never surprises the reader. Michael White does not change the political weather one iota, and never will - Guido does, on a good day.
And it’s true to say the Establishment media are scared of the blogosphere, and the Internet in general. They are. They see the power shifting to the citizen journalist and it worries them. And I speak as a Fleet Street journo who spends too much time on here.
I saw Guido’s film for Newsnight which was fine but, of course, they weren’t prepared to let him have 5 minutes of unanswered propaganda. Benedict said that he’s perfectly entitled to his anonymity as are posters here and elswhere (like me). The trouble is that his cover has already been blown so Mike White had an easy time making him look ridiculous. Bottom line you can’t appear on a programme anonymously unless you’re reasonably in fear of retribution( ie an interviewee from Zimbabwe attacking Mugabe. Otherwise viewers will conclude that you’re a twat. Like it or not that’s the reality. I can’t imagine very many posters here appearing and demanding anonymity; I’ve appeared on TV on a number of occasions over the years and didn’t do so.
75 I can at least resign from the C of E.
IMHO, an apology for something you didn’t do, and which was not done by people for whom you are responsbile, is morally worthless.
According to Kevin Maguire in the Newstatesman, Peter Hain tried to bring back Mark Tami as PPS (Hain’s PPS resigned over Trident). Tami was one of the resigning PPSs in September’s coup. However Mme Dominatrix apparently blocked it.
Hazel Blears stole the PPS to Harriet H. Flello will move from being HH’s PPS to be HB’s PPS.
74 PtP. Or This
73. Dave Spart was good this week too…still better than his various impersonators who post on here.
74,76 - Looks like you’ve got it now!
82 Oh my god it worked !!!!!!!!
80. When did the CofE ever concern itself with moral worth, Sean?
86 You’ve got me there.
I did enjoy reading a parody of an Anglican cleryman on Thought for the Day, in which he says of the 7/7 bombings “Were these not, in a very real sense, a cry for help?”
Re 79, Blue Moon, What you said on TV is not connected to what you say here unless we know who you actually are, including seeing who you are.
Notice that many muslims say nobody is forced to wear the hijab. That rings a bit hollow now with our kidnapped girl being forced to put on that ridiculous garment
Not content with of preponderance of smiling/winking little yellow faces, we now have ‘bold’, ‘italics’ and God know what else! This site is going to the dogs, more like a bloody tabloid paper every day……and I don’t know how to join in the fun, dammit.
81. That’s funny about Flello. Not much of a vote of confidene in Harman. Do you have a link for that Andrea - I can’t seem to find Maguire’s latest column online for some reason.
85 Careful Jack W, you are in danger of becoming a geek!
Re 78 SeanT “Michael White does not change the political weather one iota, and never will - Guido does, on a good day.”
Hits the nail on the head.
For me the Precott saga kind of summed up how much our MSM has become embedded with NuLab. They knew he was a womaniser with a litany of allegations of propositioning females. Yet the MSM (as Trevor Kavanagh admitted) kept it to their own little clique.
Just as the supposedly the Labour female MPs have cast a blind eye to Prescott and Straws behaviour.
Hypocrites? Hazel could not even spell it let alone understand it.
90 Can someone show us how to do italics leaning to the left rather than to the right? These could be called “ironics”, and used appropriately.
Sean F, the Chuch of England is the New Labour Party at prayer. These pathetic liberal-lefties like nothing more than pointlessly apologising. It makes them feel warm and good and morally superior, it’s their thang, their bag, their bizarre fetish, the way some men are into enemas. Most especially they like apologising for things that cannot actually be blamed on themselves, but, with luck, can be blamed on white, conservative male Establishment figures from a long time ago.
Hence their eagerness to apologise for slavery, or shooting cowards in the First World War, or the Irish Famine - but their surprising reluctance to apologise for, say, their own party’s illegal war in Iraq, which has killed half a million people in the last five years - as against the 18th century.
57. Julian. Thanks for your efforts. I picture him like Grenouille in the book ‘Perfume’but slightly less attractive!!
46. Jack. I always thought Iain Dale might make an interesting V.O.
Andrex?
95. A look back at some 18th century literature would show you that little has changed - CofE clergymen from that period were frequently depicted as smug, moralising hypocrites with zero spirituality.
91. HenryG. Here’s Maguire’s column. He doesn’t mention the switch from HH to HB, just his appointment, but if you check the current PPS list, Flello was Harriet’s PPS.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200704020027
Flello was her PPS since February, before that she had Martin Linton who is a main Hain’s cheerleader.
Meanwhile I see Frank Cook will nominate McD. And Bob Wareing is asking a recount and an inquiry in his trigger ballot
95. Quite agree. How you can say sorry for something you are not to blame for is beyond me.
80. I do think this apologising for Slavery stuff is a bit out of hand and reminds me of the Harry Enfield Character Jurgen the German - A German tourist in England who can’t stop “apologising for his country’s actions during ze Var”.
95 - Of course the fact that the Archbishops, and much of the church as a whole actively campaigned (well as active as any clergyman gets) against the war kinda destroys your point, but hey, never let a bit of truth get in the way of a good invective…
Benedict W Yes, its in the Telegraph cover piece on Miliband.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/29/npols29.xml
“95. Quite agree. How you can say sorry for something you are not to blame for is beyond me. ”
From a Christian standpoint, I’d say it’s pretty heretical too.
i would have thought saying sorry for stuff has to end with being able to be at leats partially to blame for it. Hence a good cut off point might be possibly if there are any people still living who could have been responsible for the ‘crime’ .
I fail to see how we can say sorry for something that happened 200 years ago and not expect an apology from say the Italian government for enslaving us 2000 yrs ago. both are as irrelevant in terms of everybody associated with the crimes being dead long ago
Benedict you can’t go on tv and appear in a silhouette unless you are in fear of retribution without making yourself look ridiculous. That’s a fact of life whether you like it or not. I don’t think posting here anonymously makes the many people who do it look ridiculous but if you think so fair enough.
68. Andrea - “what are the procedures to change the OMRLP constitution?”
That’s a good question. Not being intimately acquainted with the workings of the Electoral Commission I’m not entirely sure, myself.
96. Grenouille also the name of an expensive restaurant in New York. Another one of your haunts Woger? Seriously you dont do humour , but what the heck, you are a fantastic joke.A NuLab obsessive who genuinely believes in whatever the daily spin says.
107 - you are pathetic and boring and obviously a spotty little virgin student with nothing better to do with your time.
grow up.
107. Pot & Kettle, I laugh at Roger as much as the next man, but it’s probably time to give him (and us) a break from the snide comments.
104 A close friend of my parents was a Prussian Jew, who escaped in late 30’s as a teenager by joining a circus and working his way across Europe until he could cross the Channel by fishing boat in 1940. He and a rabbi from his East Prussian village were the only survivors in 1945. He rarely referred to his past but made a couple of points on guilt & apologies.
First he could not accept an apology on behalf of his family who had been shot or gassed, he wasn’t the victim, they were, and they were dead. He couldn’t offer forgiveness or comfort to the guilty parties.
He couldn’t see what people who had either been small children or born after the war had to apologise for, they hadn’t done anything. It was meaningless and didn’t change history.
As a nation Germany could recognise its past guilt and work to rectify where survivors and their desendants had been disadvantaged - return looted property, finance and help - but apologies and forgiveness could only be between the guilty and their victims.
107 P&K - The obsession with Roger is starting to look more and more like a serious problem. Have you considered giving yourself a break from the site and getting out more? It might be healthier for you and less tedious for us.
110 Wise words, Ted.
What a load of old tosh all this apology business is.
108 - Poor Diddums. You Nulab people just cannot take it, just dish it out.
Pot & Kettle - you are also “HF”.
“you are pathetic and boring and obviously a spotty little virgin student with nothing better to do with your time.
grow up.”
An example to us all of mature debate.
[94] AC - I’ve had a quick look at a relevant site and I don’t think there is such a code.
A pedant writes: I think he knew that - he was probably being ironic.
113. Yeah - like Guido, I suppose!
Come on boys and girls - let’s not turn the site into a playground.
Interesting column by Anatole Kaletsky in the Times today.
He argues that the economy may not be as much as a factor in the next General Election campaign.
Basically, we take prosperity for granted is his theme, and we’ll argue over something else.
I’m not entirely convinced in what he says, and yet there undoubtedly is some truth in Kaletsky case.
Now, the economy is Gordon Brown’s trump card isn’t it (allegedly)? That’s the ground that he will want to fight on, assuming that the economy does not suddenly go pear shaped by 2009-2010. It doesn’t look so good for him if he can’t control the agenda like that.
Link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/anatole_kaletsky/article1582354.ece
115. Yes a poor standard of debate on the site today. This is what happens if you have so little news - just a couple of opinion polls, Milliband rumours, and looming electoral meltdown in Scotland for Labour on the agenda.
Re 114 ballyeric “you are also “HF”.”
I most certainly am not.
O/T. Interested tennis punters should back Guillermo Canas to win the French Open in 2 months time at 25/1 each way with http://www.stanjames.com. He’s playing some of the best tennis of his life, has beaten Federer twice this year and is a good clay courter. He’s as short as 14s elsewhere and his price will be cut dramatically if he transfers that form to the clay swing.
http://mrhenryg.blogspot.com/2007/03/canas-can-suprise-at-roland-garros.html
117, It’d be shut down by health & sfaety people as being too dangerous.
Oh for the days of falling off overhead bars into concrete…now its just falling out of bars…
101. I take yr point, but my barb was aimed more at New Labour, natch, rather than the C of E. The Anglican church is just pathetic, soft and misguidedly well meaning, the Labour party is pathetic, dangerous and genetically mendacious. A big difference.
The position of the Reverend T Blair is particularly rich. Here is a smugly moral, self-consciously religious figure, who loves to go around sharing people’s pain and hugging victims of the Norman Conquest and apologising for stuff those awful white Englishmen did in the Middle Ages. Yet this same man cannot bring himself to see the intense evil he has personally wrought in Iraq.
Weird. Maybe 650,000 corpses is just too much to apologise for - you’d have to hug maybe three million widows, and share the pain of seven million children.
118 I haven’t seen that article but I have thought for sometime that the mantra about “its the economy stupid” is too facile. It is a truism that most voters don’t read let alone understand economic data unless it effects them personally - interest rates for example. And then they often don’t quantify the overall effect precisely, they go by what they feel like. How they perceive the economic circumstance have, and will, effect them personally.
So its ‘the perceived economy stupid” that is electorally important in normal circumstances (an economic meltdown changes the rules of course). So we can have a ’successful economy’ and ‘good economic growth’ that are electorally of little consequence.
I wonder if a report today in the Telegraph gives one reason why the government is polling so badly:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/29/nincome29.xml
“The Office for National Statistics said that disposable incomes…..fell by 0.7 per cent in the final quarter of last year. This meant in those three months alone, Britain’s families lost £22 each.”
And:
“Mike Warburton, senior partner at Grant Thornton, the financial adviser, said: “The typical household is feeling worse off, even though incomes are rising.
“The reason is that we’ve had less money to spend on the things we enjoy, because a bigger proportion of our money has gone in income tax, council taxes and so on.
“The Budget will make some of the wealthier people better off but those who are on lower incomes will be worse off.”
Does anyone (except the Nu Lab spin machine) believe that Roger is a source of informed debate or mature discussion?
When Roger stops what passes for humour and also gets out a bit and contributes in a rational fashion, then there will be no need for a deflation exercise.
For those of you who are so sensitive, last nights justification of teh Brighton bomb (and that was certainly NOT posted by Roger) would suggest that you also need to be impartial about what appears here.
125. Please, please stop. This is more tedious than a 9-hour John Redwood lecture on interest rates.
125. Yes that was a disgraceful post…perhaps a case of ‘in vino veritas’ though.
125. “Does anyone (except the Nu Lab spin machine) believe that Roger is a source of informed debate or mature discussion?”
Since you ask, the answer is sometimes.
Mercifully, he is not preoccupied with one person’s postings. Do you not think it’s time you stopped stalking him?
128. ’sometimes’
Please give us an example Peter, preferably involving politics.
58 – Hi Andrea. I’ve not seen the Daily Mail today although I understand they have a poll that is pretty good for the SNP (ahead in the constituencies and regional vote). Don’t know any of the details yet but I’ll pick up a copy at lunchtime and report back!
Don’t know who the poll is by. The last one they had was by Scottish Opinion IIRC so may well be bollocks.
123. Oh Sean, and I was agreeing with you and everything : “the Labour party is pathetic, dangerous and genetically mendacious”.
When I was about 14 I used to think that Tories were heartless examples of pure evil who threw entire communities into penury to suit their own ideological whims. I have grown up since then. Why haven’t you?
And in any case, if some thing is ‘pathetic’, how can it be ‘dangerous’? To tar millions of Labour supporters and /or party members like me with what you said above does not further any argument you have, and I’m sure you have a great critique against the Labour Party. However, when you use language like that, all that happens is that your views are dismissed because you are seen to be a bit of a nutter.
Looks like Patricia Hewitt will be saved from resigning.
http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2044975,00.html
129 Oh, Scally, do you really think I can be arsed to trawl through Roger’s many posts just to prove to you that water is wet? You’ve seen enough of them. Judge for yourself.
And whilst you are here, can you answer the question I addressed to you yesterday? To save you looking back, you accused me a writing a spoof post. I told you I never do spoof posts and asdked you if you ever do serious ones.
133 Sorry about the italics - and typos. Still experimenting with html.
Don’t dis combovers; Palmer’s got a beauty! Sort of a tousled English interpretation of the John McCain model.
Hazel Blears on Question Time.Tbank God am going out. Why can’t we have an INTERESTING Labour leadership candidate. ie John McDonnell. Would love to see him trash the Salford Squirrel.
124 this will be the millstone around Brown’s neck - joyless growth. It happened to the tories in the mid to late 90’s. If the savings ratio is so low (3.7%) during good economic times it’ll feel even worse if the economy slows. The Goblin King has announced inflation will fall and growth will accelerate; it might, but even if it does it won’t feel like it to most and the economy will be perceived to be bad. Brown already accepts that people take perpetual economic growth for granted so ‘the economy stupid’ won’t work as a strategy.
For Brown this means there is little upside to keeping the plates spinning but a big potential downside - being seen as incompetent on the economy. He has to manage that risk as best he can but Labour can forget winning an election on the economy but they might just lose one.
130. Max, go into a supermarket, pick up a copy, look at what pollster did it and then put the copy down again
re 125. Pot & Kettle - can we just lower the noise a little in relation to Roger? Thanks.
138, 130, But remember to wash your hands afterwards.
131. RedFlump, you posted this morning at 7.51am your opinion that Michael White is ‘ever enjoyable’. So pleased were you by the success of this remark, you posted again at 7.54am on a different thread your opinion that Michael White is, yes, ‘ever enjoyable’.
Someone who thinks Michael White is ‘ever enjoyable’ is already loitering on the dangerous cliff edge of credibility. Someone who thinks this bizarre opinion is so insightful and interesting they need to post it TWICE, to make sure we all read it, is clearly a drooling idiot, who needs medical help rather than political debate.
139 - Point taken host of site.
140.
pot and kettle - we all like poking roger with a stick sometimes, because it’s fun, but you do need to stop coming over as a bit of a stalker.
roger is a deluded but well meaning person who I imagine many people would like on a personal level. As a working class tory I’ve come across people like him all my life; they can’t help it, they are patrician tories attracted by the idea, but not the reality, of equality for all. Champagne socialism is a middle class vice and roger is a fine representative of that mindset.
137. I agree with what you say. It begs the question though - if the strong(-ish) economy is not the thing to win an election for Labour, then what is?
Certainly not foreign policy. The NHS used to be their pride and joy, but that is tarnished (he says, from bitter personal experience). Constitutional reform - no, a complete dog’s breakfast.
Northern Ireland? Well, I am pleased, but I think that I’m in a minority.
Redistribution of wealth and alleviation of poverty might be a good argument, but that sounds rather “Old Labour”
Is this the same Michael White that wrote the biographies of Da Vinci, Newton and Machiavelli? There were good and very enjoyable.
130 – Andrea that’s practically theft!!!!!!
I’ll nip out around one o’clock and get back to you ASAP.
I don’t know why I feel the need to share this but it’s my 2nd last day at work today before a three month break. And I saw David McLetchie going into a fashionable bar in Edinburgh last night – he’s much taller in real life. All very exciting!
121 Thanks for the tip, Henry G. I’m on at 25s. Now is the sort of thing we come to this site for.
Newcomers to the site should note that Henry is one of our most reliable tipsters, particularly in relation to politics and tennis.
Noy quite got the hang of italics, have I?
And it should be “…THAT is the sort of thing…”
Pologies. More practice needed.
145 Actually Gladstone, I wonder if we might be entering a period of politics in which foreign affairs IS the big debate. Perhaps because of ther Empire and Commonwealth, Britain is unusual in that Foreign Affairs has always been big on the political landscape since Victorian times. A combination of Iraq, Europe and pro/anti Americanism might float a number of boats.
132. Would she ever resign? Never seemed the type, it would have to be a sacking with her the whole way.
148 - I think that you’re forgetting to close your italics PtP… Remember the < /i > (ex spaces) when you want to stop…
151. In 2006 Hewitt said she would resign if the NHS was in defecit at the end of the financial year. At the start of the year there was a market on the first cabinet minister to resign or be sacked with Stan James and I tipped Hewitt.
145 Redistribution of wealth and alleviation of poverty might be a good argument
as you say too ‘Old Labour’ but it’s worse than that. Poverty, relative and absolute has increased. Youth unemployment is up on 1997 and social mobility is falling. The budget makes 5.1 million people poorer (even if all the eligible ones claimed that worst of means tested beneifts the Working Tax Credit). Hard to suddenly try and play the redistribution card (though it’s always good to shore up the core who can’t be bothered with detailed facts)
They have to try the core vote strategy and hope to get the vote out with fear of the tories - they’re trying it in Wales and (against the SNP) in Scotland. It’s unlikely to work but there aren’t too many other options.
Brown looks much better with a tash, don’t you think? (ignore the Stalin bit look at the facial hair)
http://www.heady.co.uk/rm/brown_stalin.jpg
So, having heard that the Home Office will be split on the 8th May, and also that devolution will be restored to Northern Ireland on, that’s right, the 8th May… it has got to be a good bet for the announcement of the Blair departure.
Think about it - Blair goes out with some kind of “legacy” from the Northern Ireland issue, and the split at the Home Office represents NuLab moving forward with clear plans for the future after the Dear Leader is gone… it also isn’t the day or the day after the local elections, which may make the departure synonymous with Labour possibly losing Scotland and hundreds of councillors.
146 - No. I think that Michael White is Australian.
The Michael White being discussed here is long time Guardian chief political reporter.
157. Thanks Dan. I thought they might be the same person and was a little surprised about how well he wrote. I definately prefer the writer.
[77] bit od a difference between commercial wind farms which have proven economics and a roof mill which certainly is a bit of a gimmick…
[150] The last election certainly had a pretty strong foreign affairs flavour, and if nasty things keep happening to our tr