Should Dave fear Ming more than Gord?
June 11th, 2007
Can the Lib Dems undermine Tory ambitions?
At the height of the Tory grammar row a week or so ago Francis Elliot in the Times carried a report about some leaked secret Conservative party research that might be a pointer to the next general election.
For the research underlined that the party that represents the biggest threat to the Cameron project is not UKIP or another faction on the right but the Liberal Democrats. The survey also showed a disconnect between the views of Tory supporters and Tory members and activists - the latter being more right wing.
Looking at what data there is there’s little doubt that the new Tory leadership has helped the party to eat into the Lib Dem vote although Ming has picked up support from Labour.
Since the end of last year ICM has helpfully broken down its current voting intention figures according to what respondents said they did on May 5th 2005. And looking at the last few surveys the Tories have been doing well attracting former Lib Dem voters. In the latest 11% of those who said they had voted Lib Dem last time were now indicating a preference for the Tories.
Fortunately for Ming’s party 12% of Labour voters last time said they were backing the Lib Dems although there was a fair bit of seepage in the opposite direction.
It’s not just in CON>LD marginals where this could make a difference. The Tories failed to take many Labour seats with small majorities in both 2001 and 2005 because a number of Lib Dems supporters used their vote to keep the Tories out.
So the primary challenge for the Tories is to firstly retain those Lib Dems who have switched and, secondly, to attract more. And that means pursuing a policy platform that many core Tory supporters are going to find hard to swallow. The Daily Telegraph and the site I term CONtinuityIDS are going to have a lot to bleat about.
For Gordon Brown, of course, this side battle doesn’t involve him but all the aces are in his hands. He controls the agenda and he will be looking for every opportunity to seek to underline that the Tories have not changed.
Mike Smithson
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Whichever party the Liberal Democrats support in a hung Parliament, the party will alienate a large number of previous supporters. The name of the game for the media therefore, will be to ‘out’ Ming’s intentions during the General Election campaign, this should not be difficult, since his intentions are well known. The interesting question is; what will be the consequence in the seats where some working class voters currently see the Liberal Democrats as the anti Labour party? Seats such as Islington South, or for that matter, Rochdale.
I’m afraid that is rubbish, Simon. The objective of the Liberal Democrats has to be the implementation of Lib Dem policies in order to recreate a liberal Britain.
“The name of the game for the media” is therefore to get Brown and Cameron to state clearly just how much of the Lib Dem agenda they are prepared to implement. Brown has been making some pleasant noises recently, but both his record as a member of Blair’s Cabinet, and the implications of some of his more impetuous pronouncements show that he remains an authoritarian
control freak.
Meanwhile, Cameron continues to make soothing noises too, but has no idea what to do in terms of policies.
The fundamental problem for both Cameron and Brown, as OGH has pointed out, is the extent to which they can carry the rest of their party with them in making overtures to the Lib Dems and compromises with their natural position.
With the increasingly likely prospect of a hung Parliament it will be absolutely fascinating to see how Brown and Cameron twist and turn in oder to gain Lib Dem support.
But for the electors, including those of Rochdale and Islington South, there is no problem at all. If they want a Liberal and Democratic Britain, they have to vote Lib Dem.
The question is not what you would wish the media to do - but what they are in fact likely to do. As the rules of General election coverage require the devotion of more time than would normally be the case, the question is; what are journalists likely to focus on? I leave it to others here to answer that question for themselves.
My point was that it is normally considered that, if the Liberal Democrats are perceived to be seeking to support the Labour party in a hung Parliament, this will affect Conservative/Lib Dem marginals, which I assume it would. What it may overlook is the effect in Labour/Lib Dem marginals where the Lib Dem vote currently contains a significant number of working class Conservatives. The rise of the Lib Dem fortunes in some of these seats is seen as a battle for ‘soft left’ voters by some commentators. In fact, the historical record shows that these seats contain large numbers of anti Labour working class voters. They used to be called, before the collapse of Conservative working class voting “Angels in marble” (Angels in Marble: Working Class Conservatives in Urban England. by Robert McKenzie, Allan Silver). I suspect that in some places the failure of the Conservative party to make headway in northern seats is simply tactical voting that may unwind in the event of it becoming clear that the Liberal Democrats will support a Labour government. I may well be wrong but hope that the discussion can be conducted on the available evidence, not least the history of these seats, several of which were at one time held by the Conservative Party.
I’m not sure how comprehensive the historic data are about the degree of churn in the Liberal/LD vote between successive general elections, but I have always ‘known’ it is substantial. It’s one reason why LDs have to keep campaigning. I would be surprised if the findings reported are out of line with history.
3. think you’re right with those voters. Hallam probably a good ex. On preferences do we know whether clegg’s libertarian talk has increased Lib dem second pref amongs Cons. this often good guide to tactical voting in lib lab seats
2. The name of the game for the media is to sell newspapers and gain viewers for their advertisers / to justify the licence fee. In as far as that involves political news, it means making it accessable and interesting to those likely to read, watch or listen. Generally, that will mean making it simple. That’s not the same as dumbed down as such, but if you ask an easier question, it’s easier to give a better picture of the answer in the time / space available. So Simon is right: who will the Lib Dems support will be the question because it’s short, closed and easily understood.
That said, it’s probably a false question, not least because I have doubts about whether the Lib Dems will be able to do a deal with either party if PR is not on offer because Ming won’t be able to sell it to his activists, and won’t be able to if it is because Brown and Cameron won’t be able to get it past the MPs and/or membership. In addition, the maths of the make-up of parliament after the election will affect who the Lib Dems can support.
Overall though, it’s Labour that Cameron has most to worry about. While all the points in Mike’s leader are valid, the next election will be won and lost mainly on the three questions: is Labour doing a good enough job, is it time for a change and are the Tories fit to replace Labour (which overlap to some extent). Whatever Ming Lib Dems might do, it’s Gordon and Labour who pose the biggest challenge to Cameron.
OT. The son of the manse looks to annul his patronage over those turbulent priests :
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1460921.0.0.php
I suspect we will see a marked distinction between seats where the LDs are incumbents, where I think they will still get tactical support from the third party in their seats unless they’ve been attacking it nationally too severely, and the others, where they may well be severely squeezed.
To use examples from my patch: Beeston West and Central. West was a three-way marginal Labour borough ward with a very active LD County Councillor who put out more leaflets than our borough councillors. Central was a fairly marginal Lab/Con ward with little history of LD activity. The LDs threw everything at both to get the tactical vote - copious leaflets, dodgy barcharts, voters quoted as saying only they could beat the Tories, etc. We did the same minus the barcharts. The LD vote share rose sharply in West and they won. It fell by nearly a third in Central.
The big difference is that people in West were used to getting helpful stuff from a sitting LD councillor so it felt as though they were already incumbents (people don’t distinguish between County and Borough). I’d expect the same at a GE. So the LDs may need a defensive strategy, concentrating on the seats they hold or are close runners-up.
But their overall stance is significant too. The LDs have to look independent from both rival parties. If they are perceived as mainly anti-Labour or anti-Tory, supporters of that party won’t be nearly so willing to help them in their incumbency seats. After the election I expect people will be up for some sort of deal if necessary (even if not a formal coalition) - Scotland and Wales show how flexible parties are in practice.
One good thing from a Lib Dem point of view about recent events in Scotland (and to an extent Wales) is that it will no longer look quite so automatic that we will prop up Labour - or, indeed, anyone.
DC will try to make GB look like yesterman’s man. However, as you spot, GB has most of the aces.
Gandpa Ming is last year’s man (and that’s generous), with a few 2s and 3s and no trumps.
DC has to look both competent and likely a winner at the next GE. Directly pitching to LD waverers doesn’t seem to achieve either objective. Making himself look trustworthy and reasonable to the floating voter will a far more effective use of his time.
9- O/T Good week-end for Europe’s right-wingers : France and Belgium
France: the landlside was widely anticipated, and… it is already there : 104 MPs elected in the first round for UMP, 1(!) for the PS
The second round should give Sarkozy a parliamentary majority of around 440 MPs out of 577. The biggest news is the free-fall of the National Front, and the big setback for Bayrou’s new party (around 7.5%, compared to his 18.5% in the presidential election).
Belgium: even if the Liberals are in disarray, they should stay in governemnt with christian democrats, thus creating a right-wing coalition to replace the former “rainbow” one (socialist/liberal/green)
8 Nick P. Some useful points there Nick.
This leaked Conservative document is in accord with what I’ve previously discussed on PB and with senior Tories for some time (No I’m not the author !!). That unless the Tories win big and by big I mean heading toward the higher reaches of the Blair 97 landslide, then the Lib Dem gains from 97 onwards in previous Tory seats or target seats represent a “blocking minority” on Conservative aspirations.
It axiamatic that for every one of these seats that the Tories fail to turn back blue then another Labour marginal has to be gained. In terms of numbers of seats I believe we are looking at around 30-40 or so of these blocking seats or blocking targets.
Chris from Paris Do you think Juppe and Strauss-Kahn are seriously at risk in the second round? I presume that Sego will claim after the second round that she won 200 circonscriptions in the second round whereas poor Hollande will only win 100 or whatever the final figure is. The fact is that in the first round she relied on lies about the danger of Le Pen to stop Bayrou and in the second round it was very much an anti Sarko vote rather than a pro Sego one. Still that won’t stop her. After the ‘magnificent achievement’ of the Presidential election ( ie heavy defeat) Julien Dray one of her closest supporters looked pretty happy last night. An accelerated coup to push out Hollande must be a strong possibility. Can Delanoe stop her?
11. Chris(from Paris). What’s your take on some of the run off?
How much is Strauss Khan risking to lose his seat? Is PCF’s Buffet going to survive (she’s behind UMP, but she has 15% of PS vote to squeeze)?
How many PS were elected on first round in 2002? (I noted that the one elected yesterday was forced to the run off in 2002)
13-14-
Juppé will go through not by far but quite easily (probaly around 52/53%)
Buffet will keep her seat easily (but congratulations to her opponent in a difficult constituency)
Dominque Strauss Kahn will have a difficult time, but I think he will prevail by a tiny margin. His problem is that his opponent is a well known TV person, and she is Jew (as he is) in a place (Sarcelles) often nicknamed “little Jerusalem”. it will be tight but I predict a 51/49 victory for Strauss-Kahn.
O/T - first selection meeting this evening for Swansea West Labour candidate. I have received over 10 CVs, 3 leaflets from some candidates, phone calls, texts, requests for one-on-one meetings etc etc. They are really keen! They all agree that the focus must be on the LibDems in the GE and how we can explain that a vote for the Lds is a wasted vote. I believe that the record of the current LD/Ind Swansea Coty Council will play into Labour’s hands, that and the Rainbow Coalition mess that the LDs got themselves into.
14- 1 PS MP was elected in the first round in 2002 (Ayrault in Nantes)
Meanwhile …. Limpdick Optic will be scanning his political inter galactic radar for signs of former Tory AM, Glyn Davies, who has announced his intention of seeking the nomination for Montgomeryshire and Inner Staturn Rings South !! :
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/newspolitics/tm_headline=davies-to-challenge-opik-%26method=full%26objectid=19276298%26siteid=50082-name_page.html
Oh so that’s why Cameron calls himself a ‘Liberal’ Conservative, I’ve often wondered! The obvious truth in the document, is the enormous gulf between Tory activists the ‘Daily Mail’ tendency and the Cameroons. There was a poll that showed that the majority of Tory voters if offered a second preference would plump for UKIP or the BNP, not much sign of Liberalism there.
13. “Still that won’t stop her. After the ‘magnificent achievement’ of the Presidential election ( ie heavy defeat) Julien Dray looked pretty happy last night”
Not sure if his result gives me much to smile (even if hee can survive getting all left vote and part of the MD one):
Laurence Gaudin-Beauvais (UMP) 36.12 %, Julien Dray (PS) 32.86 %, Patrick Bardon (PCF) 10.12 %, Jean-Bernard Mirabeau (MD) 7.11 %, Michel De Rostolan (FN) 4.06 %, Amandine Thiriet (Verts) 2.76 %, Michèle Fédérak (LCR) 1.93 %, Danielle Ramage (MPF) 1.82 %, Miron Cusa (DVE) 0.88 %, Roger Routin (MNR) 0.7 %, Fatima Khobeizi (DIV) 0.58 %, Patrice Ciuti (LO) 0.55 %, Clément Poullet (PT) 0.38 %, Noël Dedji (DIV) 0.14 %
17. Thanks Chris(from Paris).
13- About Royal
Well she certainly tried again her strategy to look confident and cheerful, but it certainly osunded even more out of place than after the presidential election.
She imposed herself on TV yesterday night but sounded out of touch (she was not a candidate herself)and even delusional.
Her main problem is that many of her frontline supporters in the party are in very difficult situations : from her core-presidential team Bianco, Montebourg, Menucci, Dray, Chevènement all risk to lose their seats.
ANd even one of her vocal supporters in the predidential election (and rising star of the party, remember his name) Manuel Valls (sure to be re-elected in Evry) expressed the exasperation of many socialists by saying yesterday on TV that he was “fed up that the political life of the partywas only dominated by the relationships in a couple” (Hollande/Royal of course)
she denouced these remarks as “very unappropriate” and “a little mysoginistic”(????) this morning.
Conclusion : she will try to strike but is still unsure she can do it.
Delanoé might stop her if the results are good next sunday in Paris for the PS (it’s still very unclear) and he is re-elected mParis mayor in 2008.
Re 11 The Greens left the Belgian government in 2003, after not making the 50% threshold in Flanders.
Re 11 The Greens left the Belgian government in 2003, after not making the 50% threshold in Flanders.
Re 23 That’s of course the 5% threshold
17. Thanks. Jean-Marc Ayrault got 49.76 % this time.
20*- the big communist vote in Dray’s constituency is a surprise and could be a reaction to his “law and order” profile within the PS (many accuse him to have supplied Royal with most of her stranger ideas like the infamous TV debate proposition to get all female civil servants home with protection from the police!)
26. The Communists got 10.03% in 2002 too in that constituency
23- You’re right. They may go back in government this time, though.
27- Yes but they have lost ground in many other suburban constituencies. These days, for them to keep the same score is a kind of victory!
Many thanks for the article Mike. I don’t know how much of a problem this actually is.
I think the main thing that lost us votes before was more to do with perception and tone rather than policy. Cameron has totaly changed the tone. That helps.
Also with a carefuly crafted line on immigration and other issues that affect the “working class” we can get people direct from Labour as well, as long as the tone is not trenchent.
22, the threshold is 5% in each electoral district. This time the Flemish greens attained it in some of the the electoral district, and therefore got representatives to the parliament.
Cannot see any mention of the millions of voters who have failed to vote recently. Turnout has been down some 15% on the reasonable levels of recent memory - this is some 6 million voters. Whilst the politicians can play their silly games of pretending to be something they are not, the real winner will be the party that succeeds in re-engaging with those who have been alienated from the failures of the past. This will require clear straight forward commitments that resonate with the feelings of the many.
Isn’t the question rather what the Lib Dem strategy should be? Should they seek to hold what they have, given the generally higher quality of their MPs (because of their fewer numbers) or should they seek to push on up to, say, 80 seats? It might be of interest to know which seats (on the new boundaries) have Lib Dem MPs but Tory councils and Labour MPs but more Lib Dem than Labour councillors. The past may be a poor guide to the future - I doubt either Labour or the Tories really think they can defeat Lynne Featherstone in Hornsey & Wood Green, whilst Hampstead & Kilburn is probably a three-way marginal. Ten years ago you couldn’t've predicted that.
One question the pollsters might care to ask is: “how important do you think it is that one party gets an outright majority at the next election?” - if floaters think that matters, the Lib Dems are in deep doo doo, and about all that Brown and Cameron have in common is persuading them that it does matter.
O/T: I am now calling the Labour Deputy Leadership for Johnson. Apart from anything else, no one particularly wants to keep him out. I also predict that, come the next election, even half of us nerds will have forgotten that he won.
19,
Coldstone,
“There was a poll that showed that the majority of Tory voters if offered a second preference would plump for UKIP or the BNP”
Cite, please.
Historically (to 97) the very strong tendency for Conservative voters has been to the Lib Dems (50-70%+)
The BNP often do best in Labour areas.
So was your fact a “Roger-fact” or a real one?
As usual there is a danger here of seeing the world through our politically aware eyes and forgetting the way the wider public think.
Most voters are not that partisan.
In a LD/CON marginal the Liberals win when Labour inclined voters loath the prospect of a Tory Government enough to vote yellow.
Michael Howard was a positive incentive for left wingers to do anything and everything to keep us out; now under Cameron a lot fewer voters now loath or dread the prospect of a Conservative win, even on the centre left.
This is Browns challenge, in a complete reverse of our ‘demon eyes’ campaign he has to try and convince the public that the Tories haven’t moderated; whereas Cameron has to prove that we have.
I suspect a few more ‘grammar’ type rows are coming.
19
I think that poll was actually mentioned on this site, it was only a few weeks ago, probablly in the archive somewhere, can’t be specific. Remember there was some concern on ConHome about its findings, thought it portrayed the Tories as swivel eyed right wing loonies, and we all know thats far from the truth: don’t we!
Andrea or Mike could probably help.
Michael Howard was a positive incentive for left wingers to do anything and everything to keep us out; now under Cameron a lot fewer voters now loath or dread the prospect of a Conservative win, even on the centre left.
Any evidence for this?
Results from Belgian general elections when votes from 6134 of the 6153 polling districts have been counted:
party seats votes%
CD&V - N-VA (Flemish christian democrats) 30 (+8) 18,5% (+2,2%)
Open VLD (Flemish liberals) 18 (-7) 11,8% (-4,4%)
VB (Flemish extreme right) 17 (-1) 12% (+0,4%)
SP.A - Spirit (Flemish socialists) 14 (-9) 10,3% (-4,6%)
Lijst Dedecker (right wing splinter groep of VLD) 5 (+5) 4% (+4)
Groen! (Flemish greens) 4 (+4) 4% (+1,5%)
MR (Walloon liberals) 23 (-3) 12,5% (+1,1%)
PS (Walloon socialists) 20 (-5) 10,9% (-2,1%)
CDH (Walloon christian democrats) 10 (+2) 6,1% (+0,6%)
Ecolo (Walloon greens) 8 (+4) 5,1% (+2%)
FN (Walloon extreme right) 1 (+/-) 2% (+/-0%)
Source: http://www2.vrtnieuws.net/cm/
The reason why the percentages has changed from the cituation that I reported in yesterday’s thread, but only one seat has switched hands (from Flemish socialists to Walloon liberals) is that many of the last results have come from the Walloon polling districts, and the bilingual district of Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde.
The one seat that switched hands is important because it means, that the Flemish and Walloon liberals together remain the largest group with 41 seats, compared to the 40 seats of the Flemish and Walloon christian democrats. However, as the Flemish christian democrats are clearly the largest single party, the prime minister probably will come from there, but the liberals will have a strong position in the government.
I actually believe that many Labour voters who “sat on their hands” during the last few years may come out and vote Labour if they really believe the government may change (in a close election).
Oh, and I have just voted online for my DL preferences.
38 - Now all the votes have been counted, but there isn’t any changes to my last post.
36,
I’ve just google searched the string: “site:politicalbetting.com BNP Conservative poll 2007″
There were 233 pages with most of those words on. The closest to the claim was:
41. I don`t know why so much attention is paid to Conservativehome.It isn`t home to the ordinary member os supporter of the Conservative Party its home to the racist, homophobic right who have helped keep the Conservative Party out of power for the past ten years.These people really would feel far more at home in the BNP or UKIP than the Conservative Party.
by Jack May 22nd, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Is it possible that a blurred memory of this post kicked off a false memory?
)
(I know that this kind of thing has happened to me before
For alternate preferences up to 1997, the BES have figures (see http://www.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/charter88archive/pubs/voting/av_apend1.html )
Yes, I remember the poll coldstone refers to. Perhaps Andrea can find it?
I finally plumped for the following:
1 - P Hain
2 - H Benn
3 - A Johnson
4 - H Harman
5 - J Cruddas
6 - H Blears
I would imagine Hain will miss out early on and my second preference will count. I have changed my mind so much about this. Although my one vote probably won’t count for much, I like Hain. He has some confidence about him and he is not afraid to rock the boat. I also like Benn and Johnson (who will probably win). I wish I could give Cruddas a higher position. If I were Gordon I would seriously consider giving him a high up Party role.
re 19. Not correct Coldstone. The most popular second option for Tory voters, as I recall, are the Lib Dems with 33%. That is why this is the battleground.
36 actually it showed the majority of tory voters would have the LDs as their second preference by a very long way - I know it doesn’t pander to your prejudices but you never let a fact get in the way of your ridiculous assertions about the tory party.
‘British Jobs for British Workers’ - how proud you must be of your leader elect.
44 - That was my strong recollection too…but IIRC the single greatest second preference of Cons voters was, in fact, no preference.
I think Red Flump (39) is right in saying that “many Labour voters who “sat on their hands” during the last few years may come out and vote Labour if they really believe the government may change (in a close election).”
However, I would restrict this to those seats which face a Tory-Labour had to head contest.
I also think that Jonathan is right to question Marcus’s assertion (35) that “now under Cameron a lot fewer voters now loath or dread the prospect of a Conservative win, even on the centre left.”
A gaggle of Old Etonians brought upon an exclusive diet of silver spoons, who do not even have the competence to put together a package of policies capable of convincing their own supporters!
People loathed and dreaded the prospect of a Howard government for different reasons, but the negative feelings remain strong.
45 - To be fair (and why not, it’s Monday, Coldstone is not a Labour supporter, but he still has some delightfully weird prejudices about the Tories, probably dating back to his experiences during the Corn Laws.
41
There was a poll taken, only a few weeks ago, in which voters where asked to name second preferences, the majority of Tories went UKIP/BNP. I’ve noticed how touchy Tory posters are if you dare suggest that not everyone in the Tory Pary is not fully behind DC, (I wish him well in his endevours) to turn the Party into SDP MK2 (SDP MK1 being better known as NULabour) it brings them out in droves. Bruce Anderson touches on this in today’s Independent.
http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/bruce_anderson/article2643020.ece
My own experience of talking to Conservative activists, is they are not all that keen on Cameron’s move to Liberalism, far from it!!
O/T Belgium - Results from Le Soir newspaper
CD&V/N-VA (flemish christian democrats)18,5% 30 seats
MR 12,5% (wallon liberals) 23 seats
PS 10,9% (wallon socialists) 20 seats
OPEN VLD 11,8% (flemish liberals) 18 seats
VLAAMS BELANG 12,0% (flemish far-right) 17 seats
SP.A-SPIRIT 10,3% (flemish socialists) 14 seats
CDH 6,1% (wallon christian democrats)10 seats
ECOLO 5,1% (wallon green) 8 seats
LIJST DEDECKER 4,0% (flemish independents) 5 seats
GROEN! 4,0% (flemish greens) 4 seats
FN 2,0% (wallon far-right) 1 seat
total
christian democrats : 40
liberals 41
socialists 34
vlaams belang 17
green 12
others 6
christian democrats and liberals have the majority (81 out of 150 MPs). As leader of the biggest party (CD&V/N-VA) Yves Leterme should lead the new government.
46
I stand corrected just seen Mike’s note, could you publish that poll again Mike. That was of course of voters, I’d like to see one of activists.
50- all districts are now counted
Andy at 34.”So was your fact a “Roger-fact” or a real one?”
Guido described one of my posts (about Osborne) as “untrue and very possibly libelous. From the master of the ‘untrue libel’ I took this as quite a compliment.
But from you-an altogether more informed poster than Guido-I don’t think I should be flattered!!
49 would love to see that polling evidence; you keep asserting it but it doesn’t make it true.
Bruce Anderson’s article is about Mrs Thatcher; so now you seek to equate her with the BNP?
either support your idiotic claims or post something relevant. As for your contacts with Conservative activists, even on Tim Montgomerie’s Mickey Mouse polling cameron has the overwhelming support of activists.
there’s only one leading politician who’s been making subtly racist remarks; its the guy whose about to be Prime Minister. Come on, are you proud or embarrassed about ‘British Jobs for British Workers’?
49.”My own experience of talking to Conservative activists, is they are not all that keen on Cameron’s move to Liberalism, far from it!!”
Coldstone, you need to get out and meet a few more. You could start by admitting that the tory supporters/activists who post regularly on this site seem on the whole to be very supportive of what David Cameron is doing, that and the fact that a lot of us see it as a move back to our more natural centre right position.
33 IA. “I doubt either Labour or the Tories really think they can defeat Lynne Featherstone in Hornsey & Wood Green”
I think that Labour will get it back. All the Labour people in Wood Green are going to return to Labour, now that they have accomplished their mission by getting rid of Barbara Roche last time by ‘lending’ their vote to the LibDems.
I won’t shed any tears when Ms Featherstone leaves Parliament. Wood Green voters went out of the frying pan and into the fire by swapping one useless posturing wannabe for another. The LibDems are the ‘nice’ party. They deserve better.
50, see 38
53,
Roger,
Sorry. I got a bit peeved recently, when you (in about a couple of days) were asserting as factual:
- George Osborne possessing a “Hang Nelson Mandela t-shirt”
- Photos of Cameron wrecking a restaurant in the Bullingdon set
- Grammar schools being in the last Conservative manifesto
- Grammar schools benefitting from charitable status.
I think that you occasionally say something that “Hmm - I wonder if that means that x might exist” and a few days later you assert it as fact.
We all do it at times, so I apologise for singling you out - I think you just had a “Perfect Storm” of them a week or so ago, which lodged in my mind.
Apologies.
57- My post included the last 19 polling districts
43 RedFlump I too voted for Hain.
1 Hain
2 Cruddas
3 Harman
4 Blears
5 Benn
6 Johnson
I assumed too that my second preference will count too. Perhaps there are alot of us that think this? In the end I assumed that Hain had a far greater claim to leadership than Cruddas. He has a pretty fine record.
BTW Was serious annoyed by the Johnson leaflet. Couldn’t care less that he didn’t go to university, in exactly the same way that I couldn’t care less that the others did. After 20-40 years in public life it is pretty sad to harp back to what you did at the age of 16. Inverted snobs are just as bad as snobs. The last 20 years are far more relavent. End of rant
56 Presumably that is why in the Hornsey/Wood Green wards last year the LibDems polled 15,372 votes and Labour only 8,240 . Would appear the Wood Green voters think rather differently to your prejudices .
57 - see 40
I meant:
59 - see 40.
58.Andy. Guily Guilty Guilty and Guilty…..and I’d like several other posts to be taken into consideration!
……But in mitigation I’d point out that 1 and 2 are very likely to be accurate (I didn’t say there were photos of Cameron wrecking restaurants but as that was the ethos of the club it’s likely he was involved in those activities)
62-63- sorry! I read to fast and missed your post 40
64 , You must remember , roger , that that sort of behaviour along with cocoaine use a la Boris , is accepted and tolerated by Conservative supporters as long as you go to a public school and Ovbridge .
64,
We could define a “roger-fact” as one which, in the opinion of the poster, is likely to be true but which he or she cannot verify just now
.
I believe in free markets, in labour and goods, I am not a member of the Labour Party, (I was once, not a happy experience) I have since moved to a non-partisan, even cynical view of politics. I still hold onto what you might call a left/liberal view of life, but no longer feel that any political party represents my views. As those views change on a regular basis, (when the facts change, change your opinions) its very unlikely that one ever will. As for the matter in hand Cameron’s attempt to change the Tory party as I’ve said, I wish him well, but he has only one chance. If Cameron does not win the next GE, the right, which still has the sympathy of most of the activists, will reassert itself. The grammar school row, was the tip of the iceberg, the rights resentment of the hijacking of the Tory Party by what they see as a metropolitan elite, will cause a split in what is now an un-natural alliance. I believe that in the same way, that Nu-Labour was the result of the SDP split a similar split will have to occur in the Tory Party, before a true change can take place.
There was a Yougov poll that gave the second preferences of Conservatives of something like UKIP 18%, BNP 12%, and IIRC about 30% for the Lib Dems. I don’t know how much significance to attach to second preference polls, though, without using variants of PR that allow people to exercise more than one vote.
I expect that in next year’s London Assembly elections, there will be a fair number of people who vote Conservative at constituency level, but UKIP at list level (where Conservative votes are unlikely to be superfluous). I suppose if the Tories were really devious they could revive the old Municipal Reform party and urge their supporters to give their list vote to it.
If the Conservatives have won over 11% of the people who voted Lib Dem (and presumably some have gone in the other direction) that would only be about 2% of the voters.
That should read “are *likely* to be superfluous”
re 49. The “what would be your second choice party” poll finding is here -
http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/TEL070101008_2.pdf
So the leading choices of Tory supporters are the Lib Dems
Interesting 2nd choice of Lib Dems. After the “vote Blue feel Green” campaign and the LibDems for Cameron insult.
30 Green
21 Labour
16 Tory
69 I have analysed the figures from all 7 ICM polls this year . Of those who voted Conservative in 2005 , they have retained the vote of 93% lost 1% to Labour , 3% to LibDems and 3% to Others . Of Labour 2005 voters they have retained 73% lost 11% to Conservative , 9% to LibDems and 7% to Others . Of LibDem they have retained 76% lost 14% to Conservative , 6% to Labour and 4% to Others . Unfortunately ICM do not give the changes for those who voted Other in 2005 but the net change between the 3 major parties is Con + 6% Lab - 6% LibDem No change ( a net loss of 1 voter ) .
71,
That’s an interesting poll.
- More Lib Dems tend towards the BNP and UKIP than do Labour supportes.
- The Tories were neck-and-neck with the SNP in Scotland.
- 1% of Labour supporters would actually be delighted at a Cameron victory (and 1% of Conservative supporters would be dismayed … must have been from ConHome)
- On the forced vote question, only 80% of Labour supporters chose Labour - 4% went for a Cameron-led government.
- Londoners aren’t fond of Labour - Tory lead by 46-23 in the capital.
68 - I quite agree with this analysis of Tory fortunes. If (When!) the tories loose in 2009, the right will be after the Notting Hill Set with a vengeance. It would be the equivalent of Labour loosing in 1997 - the left of the party would have rounded on Blair and New Labour and they would have been hounded out. Except that thr right of the Tory party are far stronger than the left of the Labour party pre-1997. The Cornerstoners and the No Turning Backers will scream that they lost becuase they weren’t tory enough and the more sane Conservatives will call for even more “modernisation”. The party will be in turmoil. Can’t wait!
74 Some Lib Dem voters are protest voters, and will vote for other protest parties.
Yougov’s “London” incorporates parts of the Home Counties, but I don’t doubt that the swing to the Conservatives in London proper is stronger than elsewhere.
75 Not sure I agree. Cameron’s future depends entirely on how likely it is that he will win the subsequent election.
IMO the ideological basis of most Tories begins and ends at winning power (for the beneifit of a grateful nation in general and the Tory inner cliques in particular
).
If Cameron looks like the best person to do this even after losing next time he will be safe - whatever the right wing rump say or do.
If someone better comes along, he’ll be history quicker than you can blink.
The voting on line for the labour party has this o - privacy statement:
“..adheres to the privacy principles of the Safe Harbor Program of the U. S. Dept. of Commerce.”
Does this mean that the Labour Party election is being run by those friendly people responsible for Florida - Hanging chads anyone?
I do hope no-one is trying to vote who is not a member, or sell their membership numbers and passwords on ebay…..
http://www.labour.org.uk/leadership/vote_online
68 as you have been shown to be so wrong on your principal assertion, are you going to accept you got it badly wrong and that you allowed your instinctive and irrational dislike of those not of the left to lead you to post tripe?
thought not.
One of the aspects of Tory fortunes that many miss is the effect of a lack of ‘new blood’ from the 97 and 2001 elections. This, in effect, ossified the parliamentary - and most visible - party in a pre-1990 shape. 2005 started the change, with new faces, some women, some black.
Even if Cameron loses in 09/10 the face of the parliamentary party and the leadership will have changed radically. The ‘right wing’ will be smaller and the bulk of new blood will be modernisers selected under Maude and Cameron.
This lot are unlikely to back a lurch to the pre-1990 right, much as some Tory haters on here would like to fantasise.
I like this Roger-fact concept - as I understand it, something you really really really really want to be true, but have no proof for, is still accepted as being true, because it really really really should be true: it has a sort of desirable “truthiness”.
Here are my Roger-facts:
Peter Mandelson has a bizarre fetish for men wrapped in cellophane.
Tony Blair spits on a portrait of the Queen when he gets home at night to his lovenest with Carole Caplin.
Most Labour MPs were actively working for the KGB during the 1970s and 1980s.
ALL left wingers have embarrassing sexual problems related to feelings of personal inadequacy and self-hatred.
I can’t prove any of these. Yet you have to wonder sometimes. And I really really want them to be true.
Roger-facts. Nice.
71 Interesting poll that shows that LibDems trend heavily to Labour as a second preference.
Although, that said, this seems to contradict the evidence of local elections last year in London where there seemed to be a drain of Labour supporters to the BNP if I recall. Is that correct?
Re the concept of Roger-facts; remember the wise words of Bob Dylan,
“Some things are true, even though they have never happened.”
82 - You have to be careful reading local election results. Differential turnout is the key. What I suspect, but can’t prove, is that in London, people who previously did not vote (what’s the point, there all a bunch of a crooks) were persuaded to vote BNP, whereas previously loyal Labour voters stayed at home (well, I’m not voting for anyone else, but I’m not too happy with what Labour have done, I’ll sit in and watch the telly instead). You thus have the appearance of Lab to BNP switch, without a single voter actually changing there vote.
sounds a lot like religion to me!
85 “Sounds a lot like religion to me!”
Icarus, that’s what the textual analysis of Local Government By-Election Results is all about!
Lennon I am sure you are right about reading local elections but I remember the Margaret Hodge warning about the BNP but surely she was suggesting that Labour supporters would be seduced by their message. Was her fear unfounded?
As a further note on the second preferences of tory voters.
This page from Con Home may be helpful: http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2007/03/30_of_tory_vote.html
And this one from 2006 shows the opinions of the Con Home readership: http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2006/12/tory_members_ar.html - perhaps unsurprisingly close to UKIP.
Whilst it doesn’t really show anything that contradicts Mr Smithson’s comments and general content of the discussion above. The manner in which it is reported by Con Home certainly seems to suggest that the ‘extreme right’ tendency is higher amongst tory voters. This perhaps led to Coldstone’s confusion. I must admit when it was mentioned i immediately thought it true as i had a distant memory of the con home article.
Lots of interesting press attacks on Blair this morning, re his intention to sign up to the EU Constitution without a referendum.
There’s a savaging from the Mail, Express, Scotsman and Telegraph. A slightly menacing news item in the Times. Only an effete editorial in the Guardian is pro-European, it wants Brown to sign up without a referendum.
The position of the Guardian is quite astonishing. Supposedly this is the paper of democracy, transparency and the people. Yet when it comes to Europe it is happy to see the voters’ views ignored, referendum results abjured, manifesto pledges dishonoured; meanwhile what it applauds is the spectacle of an elite, meeting in secret, cobbling together a ruse to sneak through a treaty which has already been democratically rejected. Yes, well done the Guardian.
What we have in the EU is not government of the people, by the people, for the people - but government over the people, without the people, and against the people.
And left wingers are in favour of this. Shameful.
82 and 84. Really, a bit of both. Labour’s vote was generally up in Barking and Dagenham in absolute terms last year, compared to 2002. There’s no doubt the BNP did motivate former abstainers, and took votes from former Labour and Lib Dems (who did quite well in the Borough in 2002), as well as former Labour voters.
89 I think it’s a fault we can all be prone to. If we care passionately about something (as the Guardian does about the EU) the attitude is “b**ger the voters, let’s do it anyway.” Lots of people are only prepared to tolerate democracy if it comes up with results they don’t mind too much.
The attitude among most of the European political class is probably different. In their eyes the masses were responsible for two World Wars, and their power has to be kept to a minimum.
Re: 89 - Oh please, Sean. Any stick to beat the “left-wingers” with. I’m NOT a right-winger. There HAS to be a referendum on any constitutional treaty brought forward. It’s called democracy.
Will the Right grant us a vote either or will they rule out the EU Constitution in perpetuity without giving the British people a chance to have a say ?
That would be typical of the Right - shameful.
re 88. Thanks for that Jim - it was CONhome’s desire to interpret in a way that showed UKIP in as strong a position as possible that caused the copnfusion. This is what people have remembered. The poll that was being reported on was the one I referred to at 71 above.
OT (and not sure if this has been mentioned before) - carrying on from Mike’s complaint about press misrepresentations of political betting, Private Eye latest edition claims that Harriet Harman is “the bookies’ favourite”.
From The Independents readers questions to Cameron today:
READER: How can you have as your director of communications a man who resigned for tapping into the Royal Family’s telephones? Is this the sort of new image you want for the Conservative Party? COLIN LEWIS, Muswell Hill
CAMERON: I am satisfied that Andy Coulson was not aware that a journalist at the News of the World was engaged in this practice. But he did the right thing, took responsibility and resigned.
Sounds if Cameron is being rather naive, but all you have to do is show that Coulson knew what his journalist was doing then Cameron will be forced to sack him.
Interesting discussions on the Conservative right. In my experiance these sorts of people, and we have them in all parties, the “we would rather be right (as in correct) than in power” who hark back to some mystical time past when there was ideological purity.
The reason why they are prominent is because like empty vessels they tend to make the most noise.
It is certainly true that Cameron has annoyed some people but that is more to do with tone which is completly different than content which is less so.
BTW is this a good time to mention that I only need 96 more visitors to my blog, and I will have had 35,000.
I wonder who that visitor wil be?
88
Thanks Jim, that was obviously the poll I had in mind, and the ConHome play on it. Unfortunately it only deals with Conservative voters and not activist. Labour activists are also I should think more likely to be ‘left’ of the current leadership. But then the leadership of the Tory Party is further to the left than the leadership of the Labour Party: something has got to give!!
89
Re left wingers and the EU, don’t think Tony Benn is seant!!
Was surprised to read that Cameron had a meeting with the editor of the Daily Mirror concerning their coverage of him.
Can`t believe he would be bothered, its hardly got to the levels of Kinnock attack pieces by all the tabloids except the Mirror prior to 92 has it?
90. Well, I know what you mean… but I don’t think I’m guilty of this myself. If the British people voted for a Federal Superstate then I would reluctantly accept their verdict - but I would accept it.
I strongly want Scotland to stay in the Union - but if the people of Scotland decide otherwise in a plebiscite, so be it.
Etc. Democracy, for me, is paramount. I didn’t like the last two general election results but I don’t go round trying to subvert them or ignore them or claim they were fraudulent, as lefties do whenever Bush wins.
It does strike me that it is lefties - at least at the moment, at least in the UK - who seem most willing to suspend democratic process when it suits them, bcause they believe they are doing it for the “right reasons”. Moral vanity.
91. Fair enough - and interesting, Stodge. If your views are shared by enough people on the left then Brown will be forced into a referendum. He may be forced into one anyway, given the vehemence of the newspaper attacks we are already seeing. Can he stand a year of this anger and contempt? Doubt it.
Re: 98 - To be fair, Sean, I’d rather there was a referendum - we have a full, open debate, take a vote and move on. As to which side I would be on, that would depend on the detail of the Constitution.
I share your view re: authoritarian Labour. I am to be convinced that a referendum would happen under the authoritarian Tories.
98 I don’t think it’s so much a right/left issue as an elite issue. The British (and most European) elites are currently centre left in outlook, which is why you might consider it a left wing thing.
The only single reason that the Tory party has any regard for democracy and liberty is that it is out of office. Once in power it is a totally different beast. And in my opinion they are more capable than Labour at overstepping the mark.
For example, the Thatcher gagging sinn fein MPs in the 80’s would be considered outrageous today, but was no problem whatsoever to the Tories then. Fortunately, like so many of these overly authoritarian measures they are quickly shown to be pathetic.
99 I guess it would depend on the circumstances. If say, Labour rammed the constitution through Parliament, without any referendum, a future Conservative government would be justified in simply repealing it (if it was in their manifesto).
Overall, I admire the Swiss and American system of regular referendums on contentious issues.
98,
It would be a nice reversal for a Conservative government to give the people a referendum on anything including the chance of an elected head of state.
However I won`t hold my breath seant, when your man Cameron is in charge.
99. But the difference is the Tories don’t want a Constitution, and do not want to transfer any more powers to Europe. You don’t have a referendum on something you aren’t going to do, do you? You don’t have a vote when there’s nothing to vote on.
“This government does not intend to bring in any news laws making it compulsory to wear exploding slippers every Sunday. Do you agree or not?”
So your reference to Tories is something of a straw man.
What is particularly odious about Blair’s behaviour is that he promised a referendum in his manifesto, and campaigned in the General Election on that basis. Now, whoops, he’s gone off the idea.
Yuk. The man is a skunk.
“For example, the Thatcher gagging sinn fein MPs in the 80’s would be considered outrageous today, but was no problem whatsoever to the Tories then. Fortunately, like so many of these overly authoritarian measures they are quickly shown to be pathetic”
It was ineffectual, but the principle behind it was the pefectly reasonable one that parties that want to participate in a democracy should face some sanction if they go round killing people. What do you think?
Meanwhile …. over at Mrs Dales Dairy the milk maid is reporting that Martyn Jones (Labour, Cywyd South) is in the libel courts this morning claiming damages over an accusation in the “HateMail on Sunday” that he told a HoC security guard to go forth and multiply !!
Not too sure who to cheer for
….. ok, the MP gets the vote !
Yes those dangerous lefties and their hate of referendums (refernda)
see this
http://www.margaretthatcher.org/speeches/displaydocument.asp?docid=102649
Actually, imagine how incredibly refreshing it would be if Gordon Brown stood up, on his first day as PM, and said:
“For too long we have governed with spin and subterfuge, for too long we have broken our promises, and lost the trust of the British people. For that reason I am today bringing in legislation to enact a referendum on the the New EU Constitution. We need the consent of those we represent in such an important manner. We also need to honour the pledge in our manifesto. I will personally campaign for a Yes vote, but I swear to abide by the verdict of the British people, whatever it may be.”
With one dashing gesture like that he could mark a break with the lies, sleaze, and bullsh1t of the Blair era. I might even vote for him if he did such an honourable thing.
Not holding my breath though.
97.Have you listened to Kevin Maguire recently? I think the Sunday Mirror reached a new low point when they were reduced to rummaging around in David Cameron’s bins to have a go at him.
105 I think it put peace in Northern Ireland back a few years polarized the sitation and cost lives. Not a reasonable policy IMO.
The point is though, that just a few years ago the Tories were actually, directly trying to gag free speech. There is nothing in the Tory DNA that protects liberties when they are in power. Labour have done nothing like this despite calls from the Right wing press to censor muslim clerics.
Talk is cheap and the talk of Tories on liberties is even cheaper.
This is a great speech from Mrs T, in which she attacks all those nasty lefties for wanting to take us out: its really great seant, you’ll love it.
The second theme which I want to talk to you about tonight is Europe.
Unless we win the referendum, and stay in the European Community, all our troubles will grow yet larger still.
I was heartened by the recent opinion poll, which showed a majority—albeit slender—of all those questioned in Scotland, for staying in.
The trend is going the right way.
But the Scots are always known for their good sense![fo 26]
Indeed it is not surprising that I, as Leader of the Conservative Party, would support this campaign.
As a Party, we have pursued the European vision for a hundred years.
It was Disraeli who said:
“I assume also that no great power would shrink from its responsibilities. If that country from a perverse interpretation of its insular geographical position, turns an indifferent ear to the feelings and fortunes of continental Europe, such a course would, I believe, only end in it becoming an object of general plunder. Three pages missing.[fo 27]
By turning our backs we would forfeit our right to influence what happens in the Community.
But what happens in the Community will inevitably affect us.
The European Community is a powerful group of nations.
With Britain as a member, it is more powerful. Without Britain it will still be powerful.
We can play a leading role in Europe, but if that leadership is not forthcoming, Europe will develop without Britain.[fo 28]
Let me give you four over-riding reasons why Europe must develop with Britain: with our country playing a leading role.
The first is peace.
There has been peace in Europe for thirty years.
For that alone, I am grateful. My children have not fought in a European war—as did the children of the previous two generations.[fo 29]
Nor must we take this peace for granted.
It has been gained by nations working together, deliberately, to this end.
And what is more, the Community gives us peace in a free society—a peace and security denied to past generations.
My second reason is that the Community gives us access to secure sources of food supplies.[fo 30]
We are a country that has to import half of what we need. So this is vital to us.
My third reason is that, as members of the Community, we shall be members of a group doing more trade than any other in the world.
And giving more aid.
More aid than China … or Russia … or America.[fo 31]
And fourthly, we can represent our Commonwealth in Europe.
The Commonwealth wants us to stay in and has said so.
The Community wants us too … and has shown it.
Incidentally, let me add a fifth good reason.
Anything that the left-wing of the Labour Party wants … is probably bad for our country![fo 32]
And they desperately want us to leave Europe.
Their reasons are clear.
They fear that, if we stay in Europe, they cannot have their way.
They cannot turn us into a socialist siege state, our society suffocated by a spendthrift government.
So if they want us out … I say all the more reason to stay in![fo 33]
It’s up to us to tell our people what is at risk in this referendum.
We have no reason to feel complacent.
We must tell them of the advantages of Britain’s membership, not simply in general terms, but how it has helped us [in our area?] in particular.
Every region has received some help; and the amounts vary from the large to the very small.
“I think it put peace in Northern Ireland back a few years polarized the sitation and cost lives. Not a reasonable policy IMO”
I’d be amazed if anyone was motivated to join the IRA because they heard Gerry Adams’ words being spoken by an actor, rather than the man himself.
You overlook attempts to the government’s efforts to criminalise things like religious disagreements, or “glorifying terrorism” (apart from IRA terrorism, that is.)
OT. Is Giuliani worthy of his front runner status :
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/752eotnu.asp
…………………..
109 ChrisD. Most of the tabloids rummage in the bins of celebs and politicians or have third parties do the dirty work for them.
It’s when they search your drawers you really have to worry … O eh missus !!
….. or of course hire former editors of newspapers who casually bug members of the royal family !!
107. Thatcher was wrong then; Blair is wrong now.
Since then things have moved on, anyway. The age of Deference - still faintly detectable in the 1970s - is over. This is the age of the citizen journalist, of the information explosion, of the internet. After the lies of Iraq we no longer respect our MPs as truthful and honourable - that needs to be changed - and referendums are one way of doing it. Involve the people again. Moreover in the past decade we have had Scottish referendums on Parliaments, Welsh referendums on Assemblies and Northern Irish referendums on the peace process.
It is now well established in the UK, and elsewhere, that major changes to the way the country is governed need the explicit consent of the people. The cumulative affect of 30 years of EU integration has certainly changed the way the country is run; these changes have never been put to the people explicitly. As the EU elite seeks to introduce an EU Constitution, this is time to get the approval of the people.
We all know this is right. Anyone who argues otherwise is a self-serving liar.
111. See my post at 114.
110, 112,
Or how about banning political protest near Parliament?
Tories putting gates up in Downing Street. We could go on. The Tories have no special right to carp about liberties.
116 Not to mention some of the ludicrous arrests/prosecutions for inciting racial hatred you read of from time to time.
11. ‘Coldstone’ you really are a very boring poster indeed - the best argument I have ever come across against early retirement.
117 - I see @60 you voted for Hain. Is that because he advocates tougher anti-terrorist measures (John Reid) or because he opposes them (Hain himself…allegedly).
Re 110, Jonathan “Labour have done nothing like this despite calls from the Right wing press to censor muslim clerics.”
I think that was because some were committing criminal offences under th 1986 public order act, to wit incitment to commit various criminal acts.
Shame on those right wingers who demand that current laws be enforced before new even more draconian ones are passed.
113. JackW, I think most politicians would think it was “safe” to put a few nappies in their bin without worrying that it might be used against them.
Must admit that I was surprised that Cameron employed Andy Coulson though?
“Tories putting gates up in Downing Street”
Nah, that’s more like putting barriers up on the galleries at the Houses of Parliament.
Anyway - you misunderstand me, I’m not claiming that the “Tories have a special right to complain about civil liberties”. I’m disagreeing with “Labour have done nothing like this”, when their civil liberties record is nothing short of shocking.
110.
I can just see the IRA Army Council meeting now….
‘Look lads its getting tougher out there, over half our attacks get stopped before they even start, the army and the cops are climbing al over us. Our membership base hasnt really moved up in numbers since the early 80s rush, In short we are no nearer to getting the Brits out. I know its going to hurt for many but we need to pursue the political route further, the armed campaign isnt really getting anywhere….Does anyone know of any reason why we shouldnt perhaps look to do this?’
‘Aye, what about that broadcasting ban? The people hate it, I got 20 new members on the back of that alone’
‘Hear hear! Nobody cares about Bobby Sands, Brits on the streets, abuses by soldiers, thats all crap, but that broadcasting ban, everyone is furious. They’ll fight to they drop over that’
‘Ok then armed striugle it is for a bit longer then.’
What you are effectively claiming is that, in effect, more people died on the back of the broadcasting ban and using such patent bull for cheap party political shots. You know its bull you spout and yet you use it anyway.
Jesus thats low. Sure why dont step over the dead from your comfy chair on the way to the loo.
61 “. . .in the Hornsey/Wood Green wards last year the LibDems polled 15,372 votes and Labour only 8,240″
So what? Local election - totally meaningless as a pointer to what will happen at the next General Election.
As for “Would appear the Wood Green voters think rather differently to your prejudices”. Well, if you are impressed by the Barbara Roche’s and Lynn Featherstone’s of this world, then I feel sorry for you. The last thing that the House of Commons needs is yet more self-publicising egoists.
122 ChrisD. Nappies !!!!!!!!!
Ask the present ruler of Monaco !
109,
ChrisD I have heard Kevin Maquire on TV, he is a Brown loyalist anti Blair, and I presume very anti Cameron in his columns for the Mirror.
The Sunday Mirror, I believe would have seperate control from the daily editions.
Nevertheless Cameron needs a thicker skin if he gets upset by the Labour supporting papers as there aren`t many!
But their attacks on Tory Toff must resonate, his focus groups must be telling him, or why would he care?