Sean Fear’s Friday Slot
June 22nd, 2007Are Labour Past the Worst ?
Prior to May’s local elections, I had anticipated that Labour’s projected share of the national vote would fall below 25%, and that they would clearly finish behind the Liberal Democrats. I had thought that the Liberal Democrats (and some minor parties) would make considerable gains at Labour’s expense. These were reasonable assumptions, given that Labour’s local by-election record in the months leading up to the local elections had been dreadful, the Party’s poll ratings seemed to be sliding, membership was in decline, and their activists had plainly given up in many areas, with only 60% of English council seats being contested by them.
In the event, Labour’s performance, while very bad, was still better than I had anticipated. The party’s vote share was, at any rate, no worse than it had been the year before (and in 2004), and the anticipated losses to the Liberal Democrats did not materialise. Importantly, the Party did not come third in terms of vote share. In some metropolitan boroughs, the threat of losses to the BNP stimulated a recovery in the Labour vote. Since then, Labour has seen its poll ratings rise a little, so that is now only a couple of points behind the Conservatives on average. Underlying poll ratings, on trust and competence issues, are encouraging for Gordon Brown, and it is clear that the Conservatives are not going to surge into the sort of lead that some opinion polls had suggested, when voters were asked how they would vote if Brown were Prime Minister.
Unless things go very badly wrong for Labour, over the coming year, it is hard to see them losing very much in the next round of local elections. Reading and Barnsley will probably fall to No Overall Control, and the Conservatives will probably take control of Bury, but Labour may well be able to win back Coventry, where they performed well this year. The big prize for the Conservatives would be to win the London Mayoralty. In my view, a reasonably competent Conservative candidate ought to win, given that the Conservatives have a clear lead in London, and given the relative narrowness of Ken Livingstone’s win in 2004. However, the Conservatives’ failure to get their act together, and to choose a candidate, must enhance Livingstone’s chances of winning.
Last night’s results were generally good for the Conservatives.
Suffolk CC Stowmarket North and Stowupland Conservative 628, Lib. Dem 431, Labour 317, Green 296, UKIP 185, Independent 172. Conservative hold. Labour fell to third place.
South Staffordshire DC Featherstone/Sharehill Independent 557/383, Conservative 310/211 Labour 242/168, UKIP 132. 1 independent hold, 1 independent gain from Labour. This was a delayed poll from May, and this result means that South Staffordshire is another council without Labour representation.
Gravesham BC Meopham North. Conservative 681/662, Lib Dem. 200/178, Green 104, Labour 59/57, Looney 31. Conservative hold. This too was a delayed poll, and showed an easy Conservative win in a safe seat.
Vale Royal BC, Davenham and Moulton. Lib. Dem., 758/525/479. Conservative 680, 642,612, Labour 489, Independent 418, Green 168. Conservative hold two, Liberal Democrats hold one. This was a delayed poll, and the result gives the Conservatives overall control of the council by one seat.
Oxfordshire CC, Carterton SW. Conservative 934, Lib Dem 348, Labour 102. Conservative hold.
West Oxfordshire DC, Carterton NE. Conservative 427, Independent 133, Labour 50.
Conservative hold.
Oswestry BC, Llanyblodwel and Pant: Conservative 254, Independent 91, Independent 81, Independent 34. Conservative gain from Independent. I discovered from Vote 2007 that Welsh was spoken in this part of Shropshire as late as the eighteenth century, which explains the ward’s name.
Mid Devon DC: Upper Culm. Conservative 422, Lib Dem 287, Independent 181, UKIP 75. Conservative gain from Independent.
Ryedale DC: Pickering. Liberal 577, Conservative 313, Independent 185. Liberal gain from Independent. The winner should not be confused with a Liberal Democrat. This is a gain for those Liberals who refused to accept the merger with the SDP.
Cannock Chase BC, Hednesford South. Labour 397, Conservative 243, Lib Dem 117, Independent 114. Labour hold.
Sean Fear
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Many thanks as usual Sean for your “Fear on Friday” slot !!
However I disagree about your take on the London Mayorlty. There seems to have developed over the years some electoral folklore that Shagger Norris ran Red Ken close !!
Well he did, if you think losing by almost 10% points and over 160,000 votes is close !!
Red Ken Hold me thinks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election%2C_2004
I have to say I was surprised at how well labour did.In leicester they all but wiped out the LDs who lost somewhere near 20 seats and they even took a couple off the Tories.Given it’s proximity to Coventry and it’s relatively similar(emphasise relatively) socio-economic make up,I’d say gains next year are in the offing
oh and Red Ken for mayor,
The problem with the London Mayoralty is that whilst being Mayor is a reasonable job, under Ken it appears very dictatorial ‘I’m the Mayor and I say this’. In order to be well known and appreciated by the electorate, you need to be a career politician known in London, but the place that the next generation of politicians should be coming from (GLA ideally) is put into obscurity and nonentity by the presence of the Mayoralty in the first place. Put it this way - I’m a Londoner who is more than averagely interested in politics (given my presence here!) and I have no idea who my local GLA member(s) is/are, what the proportion of party representation is, etc. etc.
I, shockingly, agree Sean and I think that in some places there has already been an isolated Labour recovery, and generally that recovery is against the LibDems. Norwich is a classic example - safe LibDem Council by 02/03, went LibDem NOC in 04 then Labour NOC in 06 and 07. During that time Labour have picked off LibDem Councillors and will do so again next year I would think. They only reason they haven’t moved further are losses to the Conservatives. Without those Labour would be looking at majority control by next year. I think that patten will be repeated across the Cities - Labour moving forward, Tories moving forward, LibDems falling back.
2/3 Are you one of those night-time athletes - Degsy’s Midnight Runners ??
Sean Fear, many thanks for the article. Labour may be over their worst, but I think it is too early to tell.
It really depends on how new gordon can make himself look. He seems to be reading David Camron’s speechs and lifting any ideas he feels like. Who knows.
I agree with much of Sean’s article, it was worse for the Lib Dems. We are seeing a return to Labour of some of the “left wing” and “chattering class” voters it lost on Iraq. What we wait to see is if Gordon can retain the middle england voters that Blair had kept onside, or whether they will return to the Conservatives which is what the polls of late 06 and early 07 predicted.
I personally believe that Brown’s Scottishness will start to grate with English voters as they watch the media headlines about the SNP spending their taxes on improving the quality of life in Scotland.
As our host Mike said some weeks ago we need to look again at the polls after the Conference season as this will take time to unravel.
I still feel that Gordon’s best chance is a GE this year.
But then there are “events dear boy” and Ealing Southall might be such an event for all 3 parties.
One of Peter’s tips for the 3.45 just got a place.
1. Yes, I thought it was more like 53:47. That said, I still think Ken (IMO one of the most infantile and frivolous politicians London has produced over the past 40 years) is beatable.
In terms of Politics and Economics - things have recently moved to a tipping point against the government. Rising interest rates on the one hand (Doubling the rate over the Interest rate cycle), Inflation rising and wages at the lower end of the market being depressed by Imigration. The continued pressure on housing stocks through 2.5 Million migrants (How many illegal ones - to add to this i don’t know?)lead me to the conclusion that something may well give at some point not too far in the future. It seems pretty unsustainable to me.
I was busy when Stuart Jackson MP articulated in the commons chamber a good anaylsis of these problems and so could not come and post on here but i supported the thrust of what he was saying.
Only one party - Labour will be blaimed for the coming mess! Come it will! I noticed that the housing market was reported as being the most dynamic in 20 years recently - shorely a portend of inflation and a crash.
It is very difficult to forecast the future as we do not know the events that will drive the future, the damage memoirs etc may have on the Labour party in next years local government elections could be as horrific as 2006. I bet their are whole graveyards of Skeleton’s that will come back to haunt Brown (MIng will not be one of them).
Sean
There are still Welsh speakers in Oswestry and I think Plaid had a branch there until the 80’s. How Oswestry is not in wales given it is further west than Wrexham is beyond me. No doubt after four years of “rainbow rule” the good people of Oswestry will be clamouring to become Welsh
I must say that the threat of BNP successes drove up the Labour vote in the council elections but a lot of that increase I would say has come from EU citizens residing in this country who disproportionately vote Labour. I think the Italians, Spanish and Portugese are very left leaning and those I spoke to voted Labour because of the BNP threat and their fear of the far right.
As an aside, Welsh is still spoken by some in this part of Shropshire with numerous farms continuing to be owned by Welsh speakers. You will hear Welsh spoken in Oswestry on any market day.
Are Labour past the worst?
No.
Emphatically not.
There is a temporary bounce based on change of leader and Brown doing an anti-Cameron - staying away from the cameras as much as possible. This won’t be possible forever.
Come back to me in a year and tell me if Labour are over the worst.
OTOH, we Tories will forever be able to point to this article of Sean’s as an advertisement for his unbiased view on elections
12 Are the any other parts of England, along the border, where some of the population still speak Welsh?
15 Thanks. I think it’s pretty evenly balanced. This may be the start of Labour’s recovery to victory at the next election, or simply a blip before the head South again.
15 Thanks. I think it’s pretty evenly balanced. This may be the start of Labour’s recovery to victory at the next election, or simply a blip before they head South again.
The Cannock result was the one bright spot for Labour yesterday as the Conservatives won that ward comfortably last time it was fought in 2004 . The other seat in Ryedale Pickering East was LibDem unopposed last month and I suspect they left this one to the Liberals . Strange the number of candidates in Mid Devon , Oswestry and Ryedale given any of them could have been elected unopposed if they had been nominated in May .
16 - No idea, but I would think the most likely bet would be the rural area in the Dee Valley around Chester.
In the early 70’s I visited some of my fathers relatives in Oakengates (Telford) who spoke to each other in Welsh. For reasons I dont fully understand Welsh was stronger in Shropshire than in herefordshire. In the case of my family they were part of a welsh community that existed in that area for a couple of hundred years after the start of the industrial revolution.
16. Possibly some places in SW Herefordshire - the border between that county and Wales has shifted since the middle ages (have a look at the place names - there are places like Llanveynde, Llanrosser and the Maes-Coed villages on the English side).
20 I spent a year in the early eighties living a mile into Wales near the BAe Broughton plant outside Chester. There was a pub down the hill, barely 100 yards into Wales. They spoke Welsh in there. Of course, it might just have been because we were poncy student types….
It’s probably true to say that the only area with any real numbers of Welsh speakers in England would be the north Powys / Shropshire border area.
One of the earliest epic poems in Welsh - Ystafell Cynddylan - is a poem recdounting the fall of the capital of the old Welsh Kingdom of Powys called Y Dref Wen / White Town. Most historians agree that y Dref Wen would have been located between present day Telford and Birmingham. Powys Castle or Castell Coch as us Welsh would call it which is on the outskirts of Welshpool became the new seat of Powys and was originally in the geographic centre of what was left of the kingdom of Powys following the fall of Y Dref Wen. If you look at a map today it is less than six miles from the border.
Just to get you going, Cumbria and lowland Scotland was also Welsh speaking (recognisably so) until the early middle ages if not later. Cumbria is directly related to the Welsh word for Wales which is Cymru and the Welsh Kingdom of lowland Sctoland was Ystrad Clud which gave rise to Strathclyde.
Enough - I should go home on a sunny Friday.
23. Yes Marquee, I always speak English with my Welsh speaking freinds and family unless I spot an Englishman!
I know that you were commenting with your tongue in cheek but as a Welsh speaking Conservative this comment, frequently made by many an Englishman, is absurd and nearly enough to make me understand the appeal of Plaid to far too many of my fellow Welsh speakers.
13. I disagree francis.
Italians, Spanish, Portugeuse and Poles for that matter tend to be more Conservative rather than left leaning. Many don’t vote or are not registered if moving around, but of those who vote, I find more vote Conservative rather than Labour.
24. There were pockets of surviving Welsh speech in Yorkshire well into the Anglo-Saxon period as well. What is fascinating however is that Welsh apparently had a minimal impact on the development of English - despite what must have been lengthy periods where the languages were spoken side by side. There are very few loan words, even in regional dialects, and no discernable effect on grammar or syntax either.
27 Linguini. Did you read Melvyn Bragg’s book “The Adventure of English”?
If you go to Argentina (Patagonia in fact) you’ll find a community of about 5000 Welsh speakers there. Similarly with Scots Gaelic speakers in Canada (Cape Breton) although they’ve dwindled to less tnan a thousand. Newfoundland Irish is now believed to be extinct.
27 There must have been periods of several hundred years, in some parts of the England (away from the border), where both languages were spoken side by side.
How recently was Cornish a living language? And how far outside Cornwall was it spoken?
I grew up in the Marches - Hereford, to be precise. I remember you could hear, 20 years ago, Welsh quite widely spoken in the cattle market and the Butter Market (a kind of souk for Border people). But this was probably Welsh rustics come to Hereford for the crack and the business rather than locals.
Right on the border, Craswall, Ewyas Harold, Kington, Hergest… etc etc.. there might be the odd pocket of Cymruphones. And you certainly don’t have to go far over the border to find real Welsh speakers.
I always find it oddly thrilling, hearing people speak Welsh. Especially young kids. It represents an extraordinary and poignant survival, over 1000s of years, in the island that also gave birth to the world’s mightiest lingua franca, English. Long may the Welsh be Welsh.
Iechyd da.
26 Are there any Stats available? Andrea do you know anything on this subject?
26 ctd. Surely this would turn the Tories pro EU then?
28. Yes…and many others.
30. Correct Sean - we can surmise as much from evidence such as the Laws of Ine (King of Wessex in the 8th century) and writings from the time of King Alfred - both make specific references to the existence of a distinct Welsh (Wealh) community.
With reference to Cornish, the language was in steep decline by the advent of the 18th century, already largely restricted to the westernmost parts of the county. Going back a lot earlier, it is possible the language was spoken in some parts of Devon in the early middle ages although I am unaware of any evidence for this.
No evidence is needed, Linguini. What language would you expect people to have spoken over the whole of present-day England after the Romans went away and before the Saxons etc arrived?
34. …in that case Linguini, I would be most grateful if you could recommend one or two other books of the same genre. The development of the English language, and the history of the real languages of Britain (like Welsh) is a subject that I’ve just discovered, and which intrigues me. (Especially, this “Great Vowel Shift” thing)
34. I don’t think you have understood the point of this discussion. Clearly before the arrival of the Germanic tribes a language similar to old Cornish would have been spoken across the SW counties. It is also clear that this language retreated from the 6th century onwards as West Saxon dominance grew. What is unclear is where the linguistic boundary might have sat in the 9th-12th centuries - and indeed even later on. It seems unlikely that the political boundary between Devon and Cornwall also formed a sharp linguistic boundary in the latter part of this period, but there is little evidence for or against this proposition.
35 Well, in all likelihood, there had been considerable Saxon immigration for some time before Britain ceased to be part of the Roman Empire (there were North Germans in the Roman Army). Even after Britain ceased to be politically part of the Roman Empire, there must have been a considerable section of the population who thought of themselves as Roman, so the answer to your question is not as simple as you imagine.
The irritating thing is that there is very little comtemporary documentary evidence to cover the period 400-600 AD in Britain.
Yes, Sean, being a student from England in North Wales in the 60s fascinated me, too - I had not realised the extent to which Wales was a “foreign” country. Learning some Welsh also useful and fun - I am afraid too many English people have an intrinsic prejudice against the language. Cornish, always said to be spoken last as a first language by a woman who died in the 1770s, but of course a lot of people have learnt Cornish and speak to other learners. In Cumbria they always speak of the sheep counting system to be a form of Welsh even now (Cambria / Cumbria ofcourse)
On the politics, Liberals these days are more often than not Lib Dems who have fallen out with their colleagues rather than original refuseniks. There are concentrations of the originals, of course, notably around Exeter, Liverpool and one or two suburbs, Slough, Peterborough, and Trowbridge, Wilts, but they are mainly gradually dying away. Perhaps someone would like to let us know what has happened in Ryedale to provoke this?
Well, they still have an Eisteddfod (sp?) in Tilehurst, West Reading, every year.
30. The last native monolingual Cornish speaker died in 1777 (I think); Modern Cornish is kept alive by c.300 students and fans. There may be a handful of families who bring up their children with Cornish as a mother tongue. There are various disagreements about spellings.
Introduction (Gravesham): There is no e in Loony.
In Cumbria they count the sheep as follows:
1 - Yan
2 - Tyan
3 - Tethera
4 - Methera
5 - Pimp
6 - Sethera
7 - Lethera
8 - Hovera
9 - Dovera
10 - Dec
36. Gladstone - I’ll come back to you on that, got to pop off now.
37. As a proud Englishman and Briton, born of Cornish parents, in Devon, but raised in the English side of the Welsh Marches, I have a big investment in this complex debate!
It’s a very confused picture.
Cornish was never really a funky living language, there is barely any literature in the tongue - a couple of passion plays, etc - but that’s it. English was wiping out it as long ago as the Early Middle Ages, I think. Maybe even before - who knows?
And that’s it really - who knows? There is a very interesting and reasonable new theory, based on placenames, which claims that the most widely spoken tongue in mainland Britain BEFORE the Roman invasion was a Germanic tongue similar to Jutish, Saxon, Dutch, etc. i.e. people were speaking English in England before England existed.
Genetic tests on the DNA of Brits support this thesis somewhat; and muddy the waters further. It seems there was a Celtic/Teutonic divide between the west and the rest of the British Isles long before Ceasar. The Irish and the Welsh apparently come from the Basque country. The English come from Turkey, via Denmark and Norway etc etc.
Basically the latest linguistic and genetic data is so confusing no one knows what to think. What is certain is that most white people in Britain have very deep roots here, going back millennia. The idea that we are a “nation of immigrants”, in the same way as America, is drivel.
39 I think Liberator had something about this a few issues ago. If I remember correctly, the Liberal in Ryedale was an incomer from the South of England who was approached to stand by the LD’s but he said he was an unreconstructed Liberal and wanted to stand as a refusenik instead. The LDs said it was fine by them, until there was a big falling out - something to do with the US base at Fylingdales? Anyway, the LDs withdrew support, but stood by their agreement not to oppose him.
Or something like that.
All sorts of peoples or tribes have migrated. What makes the Anglo-Saxons such a vigorous example, I wonder? Not content with taking over the land that became “England”, the Anglo-Saxons then went on to take over North America, Australasia and parts of Africa. Do they have some sort of gypsy gene that makes them want to keep traveling? Or is it a colossal accident of history?
ARGH, lost all the best on Ascot.
ARGH, lost all the bets on Ascot.
46 The Scandinavians (who must have been pretty closely related to the Anglo-Saxons) had a similar urge to settle new lands. For much of their history, a birth rate well in excess of their death rate, must have been a decisive factor.
42. That would send me to sleep.
36 Gladstone - I found Richard Claiborne’s Life and Times of the English Language a good read. Starts with the common source in Indo-European, through the outwards spread in various waves and how language developed.
This is a good story.
http://www.buryfreepress.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=843&articleid=2887445
Sean T is completely wrong about Cornish, as he is about so much else
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_language
“At the time of the Prayer Book rebellion of 1549, which was a reaction to Parliament passing the first Act of Uniformity, people in many areas of Cornwall did not speak or understand English. (The intention of the Act was to replace worship in Latin with worship in English, which was assumed, by the lawmakers, to be universally spoken throughout England. Instead of simply banning Latin, however, the Act was framed so as to enforce English). In 1549, this imposition of a new language was sometimes a matter of life and death: over 4,000 people who protested against the imposition of an English Prayer book were massacred by the King’s army. Their leaders were executed and the people suffered numerous reprisals.
The rebels’ document claimed they wanted a return to the old religious services and ended ‘We the Cornishmen (whereof certain of us understand no English) utterly refuse this new English’.”
Common Brythonic (often referred to as British emerging at around c.1500BC) which followed on from a proto Celtic root borrowed some words from Latin and most likely split into different dialects depending on region. This is separate to the Pictish of Scotland (disuputed as being a Gaelic language or not) but to the West the language will have turned into a version of Welsh, the South West to Cornish, the north to Cumbric (possibly close to Welsh), not sure about the East, may also be related to Cumbric. Various invasions pushed these languages to the fringes, as British was replaced by English, taking on board elements from the Angles, Saxons and Jutes followed by Old Norse and Norman among others.
Irish and Scots Gaelic and Manx are from a completely different strand by the way, called Goidelic. Both it and Brythonic coming from that proto Celtic root.
One of the main reasons for the richness of the English language is these constant additions to it, allowing words with different roots to compete and to develop subtly different meanings.
42 - Rik, that counting system is a remnant from Cumbric.
Just did a bit of research and Cumbric didn’t seem to reach further South of the Yorkshire dales, there must be another extinct element of Brythonic which covered Eastern England. Anyone any idea?
Listening now to the BBC live, Gordon Brown said “top down solutions are not always the best” but that means he thinks that they are usually the best, the norm?
42-”In Cumbria they count the sheep as follows:”
what happens if there’s a 11th sheep?!
Dec-Yan?
52. “he announced radical new proposals, including … scrapping the Allotments Working Group”. Exciting times indeed.
By the way, does anyone else think that ‘Bury Free Press’ sounds distinctly radical, though whether far left or far right depends on whether Bury is an instruction or proclamation.
8 Ealing Southall. Well suppose the Lib Dems win it. Ming will bask in glory, but Dunfermline proved literally they don’t need a Leader to win a By Election so I don’t think the Lib Dems should feel that vindicates him regarding GE.
On the bets can I goad Mark Senior and CymruMark to bet on the outcome of the Ceredigion GE result. This will be the most ferocious battle since Bryn Glas probably.
49. Nope poor agricultural land and military strength. They first only raided, but finding the response weak and the wealth of the Anglo Saxon Kingdoms great. They came back again and again. Once Alfred and his Son had and Grandson hit back though they stayed away for almost eighty years
44 What you make of the Jamie Oliver business
35. It’s been argued there was a gradual fusing of Latin, Celtic and Saxon. But like Maltese mix of Italian and English and Arabic. Although it’s a Germanic language in English unlike other related languages the word order not the word ending is critical to the meaning of a sentence, that comes from the native Britons
Yes, Labour seems to be past the worst. It is still my judgement that ‘the tide has gone out’ on a Lab majority. At the same time, I think Lab have avoided the fate of the Tories after Black Weds. That is, falling to 30% and simply not being able to shift this. Maybe senior Lab folks realised this was a real risk, even though they couldn’t help themselves about a year ago. The contrast this year after the expected thrashing in May is quite startling…orderly transition in progress including very comradely Deputy campaign (especially given six candidates), membership figures and activity shifting upwards somewhat.
Hmm, a little more research and it looks like a bit of a disputed area, some say that there was a Germanic influence in Eastern England pre the Romans and any Celtic influence was diluted (even moreso with the presence of Latin) and that a form of English may well have taken root before invasion. Not totally convinced myself.
59. “Well suppose the Lib Dems win it. Ming will bask in glory, but Dunfermline proved literally they don’t need a Leader to win a By Election so I don’t think the Lib Dems should feel that vindicates him regarding GE”
I think it’s quite possible that LDs will win Ealing Southall byelections and then go back to their current performance levels in opinions polls and co.
Like 2006 good byelections results in both Dunfermline and Bromley didn’t translate in a general LD surge all over the country.
51 Ted. Many Thanks.
60. No - Anglo-Saxon (Old English) was a highly inflected language where word order was variable. The shift to modern English - where word order is critical - was the result of the disappearence of the inflectional system induced by contact with Old Norse and Norman French. It was not a result of interaction with Welsh/British speech.
65. That weirdie beardie History bloke (not Bill Oddie) was expounding this on TV. One who did Britain BC or something if you can remember his name at all
If any Devonian ever spoke Cornish they’d keep b****y quiet about it! For Devonians the Tamar marks the end of the known world.
67 I thought theDevonian period was several hundred million years ago……….
64 Trouble is I took the book off the bookshelf to check the author and started reading it again. Only half a dozen or so borrowings from Welsh apparently - must be a sign of ancient antagonisms when you compare it to the huge borrowings from India or Africa for example. Strange that two peoples live alongside each other fpr 1500 years yet very little of the Welsh language is borrowed.
68
Some things never change!!
44. How can DNA results back up linguistic beliefs? The vast bulk of historians now accept that a whole people can have an entire cultural transplant with only a few new settlers in the ruling class. Unfortunately the “common origin” myth continues to cause problems to this day. If you’ve actually seen footage of the “Arab” militias in Sudan you’ll see that they’re clearly genetically closer to the Africans they’re killing than the are to those living on the Arabian peninsular. Genetic studies have also shown that the Jews living in Palestine in the early 20th century were closer genetically to Palestinian Arabs than they were to American or European Jews.
It is my understanding that the reason the Celtic fringe shares much DNA similarity with the Basque country is that both areas have had very little immigration since Neolithic times (i.e. before the Celts arrived). This also shows the illogical nature of Gladstone’s claim that the Celtic languages are the “real languages of Britain”. The Celts were invaders just like the Germanics were (except the Celtic culture originated even further away). Who knows what the pre-Celtic culture really spoke?
Brown apparently offered Lord Stevens a post and he’s so far saying no. It’s looking a bit desperate for Brown if people keep turning him down. (as per Channel 4)
Re 63 Andrea, yes but Dunfermline and Bromley kept Lib Dem spirits up. A bad loss in Southall may push Ming out.
71, Indeed National Geographic’s DNA survey found Wales’s closest DNA match was the basques who predate even the Celts. Theory being they were the same stock but the Welsh adopting Celtic lingua circa 300 BC unlike the Basques
71 Whoa There, tjm! Cur me some slack, please. I’m just starting in this field of study. I’m making no claims or assertions whatsoever. Anything that I say on the subject are the words of a novice, whose errors need to be pointed out in a gently and kindly spirit, as a teacher might do to a pupil.
ASCOT REVIEW
Heavy rains brought a change in the going and was probably the main reason for a number of very large priced winners. In the circumstances the selections didn’t do too bad although personally I finished well down. Some of you may have managed a small profit though if you picked your way cleverly through the suggestions.
Here’s how they did.
2.30 Janina - ran OK but didn’t stay on.
3.05 Lion Sands didn’t like the ground and performed poorly but Boscabel won well at 7/1. Lucarno followed him home but at 5/2 I don’t suppose many backed him each way.
3.45 The rain clearly invonvenienced Finsceal Beo. My alternative, Darjini, ran well but at 7/2 was not an each way bet so third place didn’t really help.
4.20 Imperial Star was a non-runner and I wish Road To Love had been too.
4.55 Consulate raced with the leaders before running out of puff.
5.30 Pride Of Nation never showed but Wise Dennis nicked fourth place at 4/1. Wyatt Earp beat one home and will be on his way to Boot Hill soon, along with the eminent PBer who tipped him.
Sorry I couldn’t do better but few punters escaped unscathed today and if you did back Boscabel you are likely to be one of the few who had a winning day.
If Benedict would like to phone me again tomorrow I’ll have one more try.
Or perhaps you’d rather not?
Btw, I find all this language stuff fascinating. I have nothing to contribute but have read the posts with great interest. In a quiet political period, it’s a welcome diversion.
71 Whoa There, tjm! Cut me some slack, please. I’m just starting in this field of study. I’m making no claims or assertions whatsoever. Anything that I say on the subject are the words of a novice, whose errors need to be pointed out in a gently and kindly spirit, as a teacher might do to a pupil.
O/T - Boundary Commission update:
The Order implementing the new Parliamentary Constituencies for England was approved by the Privy Council on 13 June 2007.
It becomes effective 14 days later - on 27 June 2007, the very day Tony Blair resigns.
http://www.privy-council.org.uk/files/word/13th%20June%202007.doc
37. “It seems unlikely that the political boundary between Devon and Cornwall also formed a sharp linguistic boundary in the latter part of this period, but there is little evidence for or against this proposition.” Why not? Rivers are often a natural border limiting a new language’s spread. My Cornish grandfather used to mention there was a habit for Cornish people to refer to the other side of the Tamar as being England.
OT. Is it my imagination or has the Betfair price on Jack Straw becoming the next Chancellor tightened markedly in the last couple of days?
74 - The Basque language (with its defunct cousin Aquitanian) is an interesting one, isolated as it is from the rest of the Indo-Euopean languages, it could well be that it is related to a pre-Celtic language spoken in the British Isles.
Regarding an earlier thread question from Yokel, the database I mentioned is the National Identity Register. The government claims it isn’t centralised because the information will be stored on three separate national databases that will be massively expanded, with an overarching structure. Besides, this is just because its cheaper to do it this way from a practical viewpoint - there will still be free exchange of information between the three. Apparently to be “centralised” it would have meant one massive database rather than the hugely decentralised three. Incidentally, each of the three databases will hold more information on each person than that of the People’s Republic of China.
OT. Tonight we can surely all sleep better in our beds knowing that Tony Blair has fought hard to permit Britain’s foreign policy to continue to be decided independent of the EC - in fact decided wherever the US Secretary of State of the day is resting his/her weary head.
O/T but Benedict Brogan has some fascinating Labour gossip on the earlier item of the day. Seems not only LibDem MPs were furious with their leader - he has a ministerial source for this one
http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/2007/06/minister-brown-.html
“Minister: Brown “lied” about Lib Dems
Amid the mayhem and croissants here in Brussels, I’ve had a puzzling telephone call from a Minister who is unhappy about the Chancellor’s attempts to seduce the Lib Dems. He complains that at a meeting with Labour MPs just before nominations closed a few weeks ago, Mr Brown said: “By the way, when I said a government of all the talents, I meant a government of all the Labour talents.” The Minister tells me there was a “sigh of relief” at this assurance. Now he says: “If he does give jobs to Lib Dems then he lied to us.” For my part, I still think this was a supremely clever tactical ploy by the Chancellor which has caused mayhem in Lib Dem ranks.”
78. Yes the Sunday People had a piece in it with the headline: Brown to lose 19 MP’s the day he takes over.
I thought it was a mass “defection alert” until i read the whole section on it!!! I was dissappointed then. I would have thought that people with an axe to grind might leave on that day. Someone who fell out with him over an issue when they were in office.
There are plenty i can think of who could very easily cut the ground from under his feet. Maybe this is the thing about LD cabinet seats?
84. Yes but what if they oust Ming and get someone else in more attractive to Labour/ LD voters?
80. It depends on how you look at it. Quite a wide gap has opened up between the backing and laying prices, so the odds have got shorter if you’re looking to back him - although they’re still within the box his price has been trading within in recent days. The lay price is actually towards the top end of recently traded values. There’s currently very little money available if you want to back Straw - it would only take about £30 to push the price down from 4.7 to 3.5, for example.
The Next Chancellor market has been fairly quiet throughout the whole time it’s been running. The next Deputy Leader market has had more traded on it despite being up for a much shorter time.
53. Test, I think someone, like you, whose idea of an interesting, acute and well-informed addition to a debate is to…. er… cut and paste a big chunk of Wikipedia, can be safely ignored as a twat.
You remind me of this fat kid I used to know at school, who always tried to win debates by saying “coz that’s wot it says in my dad’s cyclopedia, like”.
I have now concluded you are a chubby anorak age about 17 with no social life. Please correct me if I am wrong. But not by quoting Wikipedia.
87 Yes, you beat me to it, David. It’s moved down in very thin trading and a large spread has opened up. I don’t think it is significant. It is very unlikely to be inside information. If it were, the privileged punter would be mopping up the large sums availing to lay Darling at very low odds.
No sign of that happening.
88 Be fair, SeanT. At least he cuts it out of Wikipedia. Some of The Creatures cut it out of Dungeons and Dragons Weekly.
23 - Guto. I know what you mean, as an Englishman living these past 6 years in Flintshire and schooling my kids in Wales where Welsh is compulsory from reception class upwards, I have come to the conclusion that it is better to join them as I’ll never beat them.
My proudest moment recently was spending a week learning Hen Wlad fy nhadau (Land of My Fathers), and singing loudly at the New Zealand v Wales match in Wrexham a couple of weeks ago. There’s nothing like it - as spine-tingling as belting out Flower of Scotland at games when I lived in Edinburgh.
As a Conservative and unionist, I am intensely proud of being English and British. Too often the English confuse the former with the latter, and in doing so miss out a great deal on celebrating the Welsh and Scottish part of also being British. Learning our common anthems and languages is a very rich part of celebrating the cultural diversity that binds us together.
23 - Guto. I know what you mean. As an Englishman living these past 6 years in Flintshire and schooling my kids in Wales where Welsh is compulsory from reception class upwards, I have come to the conclusion that it is better to join them as I’ll never beat them.
My proudest moment recently was spending a week learning Hen Wlad fy nhadau (Land of My Fathers), and singing loudly at the New Zealand v Wales match in Wrexham a couple of weeks ago. There’s nothing like it - as spine-tingling as belting out Flower of Scotland at games when I lived in Edinburgh.
As a Conservative and unionist, I am intensely proud of being English and British. Too often the English confuse the former with the latter, and in doing so miss out a great deal on celebrating the Welsh and Scottish part of also being British. Learning our common anthems and languages is a very rich part of celebrating the cultural diversity that binds us together.
90 PtP -
Ahem, in defence of Wyatt Earp at Ascot…well no he was crap with no excuses, he was too keen to have his head early. Lets just say I won’t be going on a recovery mission next time he runs.
Someone fancied him mind you, he was the subject of noted bets on course.
90.Heh.
I’m in Bangkok right now, but it’s interesting to note in our exciting EU negotiations that Blair has accepted what was hitherto a red line: a diplomatic service for the EU, plus a foreign minister who will chair all foreign policy meetings, and a French attempt to changethe economic ethos of the EU. Etc etc etc. What next? Control over our immigration policy? Sure, here it is on a plate.
Can someone please tell me what exactly we have GAINED from these negotiations? More money? Nah. More freedom from Brussels interference? As if. A sense of proper transparency? What- in a process designed by its nature to circumvent the will of the people, expressed in referendums? Don’t be daft.
Can someone also tell me what exactly the damage would have been? - if Brown/Blair had gone to berlin and said: Nope nope nope. No. Sorry. Feck off. We don’t want it.
What are they gonna do? Kick us out? Hardly, they didn’t chuck out De Gaulle and he left his chair empty for three years. Perhaps they might prevent us giving them so much money? That would be an awful blow.
Blair is a terrible negotiator. He wants to be liked too much. He is a vain and ultimately immoral man, a vacuous twit, perhaps the most ethically deficient prime minister since the war.
Let’s see if Brown is made of better stuff. And gives us the vote they promised. That’s all we want. A vote. Just a simple vote.
If he doesn’t do this I shall, as I have said, retire from all political commentary and I shall henceforth cease to give a sh1t abut British politics. The politicians will have betrayed us, the power will have finally leached to an unelected politburo in a foreign country. Voting simply won’t matter any more. Why bother?
We’re waiting, Gordon. Please please please prove me and the cynics wrong.
95. “Blair is a terrible negotiator. He wants to be liked too much.” That’s part of the answer - he’s poor at saying ‘no’ when it needs to be said, but there’s at least one other important aspect to his way of thinking: he thinks in the wrong timeframe.
According to the BBC’s correspondent, he gave in to the French over the preamble because ‘they had already announced it’ and they’ll look silly if they have to backtrack. So what? On that basis, all the government needs do is announce that we’ve got everything it wants before the summit starts and hey presto - no-one can challenge it. Blair is still thinking in terms of tomorrow’s headlines and short term popularity and not what matters, which is the enduring words on the paper. At least Brown seems to have his head screwed on a little better.
97. Labour wants to give us away on the plate. An EU superstate is a socialist victory
Why is nobody asking the obvious question?
People are claiming that the French inspired change over competition makes no difference as free competition is mentioned everywhere in various treaties. Isn’t the obvious question:
If it makes no difference why are they making the change?
94 Yes, I noticed some large wagers on W.Earp. I also noticed a small one. Mine.
The inspiration for this particular equestrian investment will of course remain anonymous.
Just between me and you though, your case comes up next Tuesday.
99. Thats alright. I’ll put up the source of the information to the panel…I mean you can’t shoot the messenger can you?
96 Don’t want to come over all UKIP but I voted in 1975 for a common market - forget all the accretions of the past 30 years that is at heart what the UK signed up for. The French amendment kicks out the EEC objectives and replaces the core raison d’etre with the common policies and laws(the EU) rather than the common market.
Good to see Gordon had enough sense to distance himself from that. Bonus points with Dacre & Murdoch as well. Plus in calling Blair to order a change he made Blair look like his lackey trying to disobey orders which must have been fun.
Or was it planned to look that way? So Gordon appears the wrecking sceptic who stops Blair giving away too much, so we don’t need a referendum at all? While we admire the obvious tour de force on the red lines (Blair self discovered key features) we miss the sleight of hand elsewhere.
Or again…. would be nice to not have to look art everything through TB/GBs and spin.
Can someone tell me how different this proposed “Treaty” is from the rejected Constitution. Obviously if it was 100% the same, the French and Dutch would be in uproar.
Is it 50% the same? 75%? 90%? What?
Evening all
The other possibility is there won’t be a deal at all or it will be so diluted that it won’t make a scrap of difference to anyone anywhere and certainly not be worth holding a referendum.
Perhaps in two or three years, Dave Cameron will be at an EU summit and something more meaningful and substantial will be decided but I doubt it. With such a diverse group of nations I can’t see any scope for a document which will satisfy everyone.
In thirty or forty years, perhaps. As a pro-EU LD, “am I bovvered ?”. No, not in the least. IF a substantial EU treaty had been agreed, there would have to be a referendum. That won’t happen.
Gosh all you Eurosceptics are really getting on my nerves. Take some drugs, watch Glastonbury, and chill out. You all know your inane comments really don’t matter.
104 Tyson, there is a big, big, difference between being anti the whole idea of a European Union, and being frankly disgusted with the EU as it currently is (Which includes the shennanigans going on right now).
Unlike SeanT and others, I have no problem with a fair and democratic united Europe (which I suspect is your ideal solution as well). But I have had it up to here with the sleazy and corrupt EU.
)
When I criticise the EU as an institution, all I get is “So you are against a united Europe then”. NOOOOOO!!!!
It is like accusing me of being against all marriage, just because I am getting a divorce from one particular woman. (I’m not, in real life, but you get the point
In case you missed it. No Macavity anymore. GB vs 4 interviewers. The man is good.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6230000/newsid_6231800/6231808.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm
103 As a 1970’s Europhile I welcomed a referendum because I believed the British people would see the sense in the case presented, even though they had just elected an anti-EEC government. I’m sceptical about the benefits of what’s being proposed but todays Europhiles seem to accept it isn’t an argument they could win because they can’t make a case; otherwise why be scared of asking the people? Certainly the case from the Commission and Germany doesn’t convince me but hey why not try?
Perhaps I really want my fundamental right to a placement service enshrined at highest level.
So change some words, add in smoke and mirrors, get the thing through and ignore the voters, obviously its too hard for them to understand.
106. Well if he’s good, everyone will be able to see it and you won’t have to try so hard to tell us.
Thanks anyway.
108 - Steady on Yokel. I think the extra ‘o’ was a typo.
Meanwhile VII …. Beeb state Lord Goldsmith to resign when Brown becomes PM.
105-Gladstone- I am thankful every day, every minute for the peace, prosperity and security that the EU has bought to me, my family, my future. When one thinks of the unimaginable horror that a divided Europe unleashed on our near ancestors.
I personally think that the headbanging Eurosceptics are as extreme as the Islamists, worse even (most Islamists are ill educated), the Eurosceptics are happier in their perverse ideology to see hatred, nationalism and extremism rule, all in their pathetic pursuit of silly sectional interests, and anachronistic sense of democracy and government.
107. Arguments are easiest to win when they’re easiest to put. In the right circumstances, a referendum on joining the euro could probably be won - there are clear arguments and dividing lines. It’s a complex issue but at least the substance of it can be made relatively simple.
By contrast, a vote on the Constitution would have been very difficult in any circumstance as there wasn’t really any clear selling point for it in terms of impact on the UK voter. It would have become an excuse to kick the EU, rather like the European elections.
What’s the benefit of a single EU president or reformed QMV proportions? I could make a case either way, but then I’m a bit more interested than most people in the EU’s workings - not that that’s necessarily a claim to be proud of.
You’re right though - if the ‘pro’ lobby doesn’t have the confidence to make the case, but still tries to push things through under the radar, will do nothing for their credibility or that of the EU at large.
107, basically, it’s a case of snouts in the trough. The electorate can’t be persuaded to accept *that* so it’s best to ignore them.
When one witnesses the behaviour of the European political class, one can see why revolutions happen.
“I am thankful every day, every minute for the peace, prosperity and security that the EU has bought to me, my family, my future.”
Personally, I put my prosperity, such as it is, down to the fact that I live in a democracy, governed by the rule of law, to the economic reforms of Margaret Thatcher, and to my own hard work. The EU has sod all to do with it.
I’m sure you only say these things to annoy.
111 When you describe democracy as “anachronistic” you show yourself in your true colours.
114/115-Sean Fear- ask the Iraqis today what would they prefer- democratic elections in a fractured state, or security in a dictatorship? You see democracy comes well down the pecking order for an individuals needs and wants.
Surely individual, national elections are a sham in the context of globalised, capitalism? Our relations internationally have been far, far more important than the marginal differences in the different political parties here.
Eurosceptism is as irrelevant as the British Empire.
114/5. I hope it’s a wind-up - I’m not convinced it is though.
Either way, there’s no point getting into a debate where there’s no common ground at all.
111 Tyson. I too, “am thankful every day, every minute for the peace, prosperity and security that the EU has bought to me,” with even grater thanks for the same to NATO.
And I condemn, with you, the “pathetic pursuit of silly sectional interests”. So you will be as disgusted as I am with the French then, after reading this extract from Mark Mardell’s latest Euroblog
“But while some see the French as hopelessly old-fashioned, I think they are devilishly clever. Protecting their own key industries from competition, while using the rules to operate in other countries may not be pretty, but it’s hardly stupid.”
We are not killing each other thank God, but lets not pretend that the European countries are not still deeply conscious of their own national interests, especially France.
And by the way, can we just clarify your last sentence to avoid any possible mis-interpretation. Can I confirm that, when you talk about “anachronistic sense of democracy and government”, you are not implying of course that you consider democracy anachronistic? And that you are you not implying that you would be willing to give up democracy in favour of the “peace, prosperity and security” that you cited earlier?
ask the Iraqis today what would they prefer- democratic elections in a fractured state, or security in a dictatorship?”
Firstly, how is that relevant to the UK? Secondly, how would you know what Iraqis want? Perhaps they want a secure democracy. Do you know otherwise?
“you are not implying of course that you consider democracy anachronistic?”
Actually, I think he is implying just that, in the light of post 116
111 I must be my own near ancestor (which is worrying)- seems to me that Europe was a divided continent at a state of near war for most of my life with tens of millions living under occupation or dictatorship. The EU had damn all to do with ending that, in fact France and West Germany seemed happy to co-exist with it (Realpolitick and all that).
It was the US, UK, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and other like minded countries who pressured and cajoled the USSR to point of failure and supported those who liberated our central and eastern european neighbours. It was the UK which pushed hard to bring those countries into the EU - and which is one of the very few to welcome them as equals.
The EU stood by helplessly as Yugoslavia collapsed into anarchy and genocide, with the French trying to bolster Serbia and Germany Croatia. It was the US and NATO that resolved that.
The Franco-German re-approachment would have happened irrespective of the EEC but what saved us from war was NATO and the US nuclear shield. It was General Marshall and his aid package who ensured that Germany and the other needy countries post 1945 had the means of recovery and the Allies sensitive but firm occupation and constitution for West Germany that laid the foundations of peaceful co-existence.
Most Islamicists are apparently largely ill-educated.
Yeah they are a bunch if ignorant shites.
The EU wasnt helpless Ted, it just stood by. I was particularly enamnoured by the peace loving Germans who let some ex-East German military equipment including multiple rocket launchers find their way into Croatian milita hands.
Now of course, they didn’t know that they’d end up in such hands did they…..did they feck.
118-Gladstone- let me explain myself- I meant anachronistic sense of democracy in terms of people thinking that we can rule ourselves, everything that we decide impacts only on ourselves, that elections here really dictate the policies that are implemented here.
Our foreign and economic policies have been dictated as much by Europe, the global economy and the US since the start of the 20th century, perhaps earlier.
Our national interests are surely the same as our European allies? Collectively we are stronger, individually weaker. Elections here are about as important as which football team we support. And long may it continue as long as we have idiotic, nationalistic Eurosceptics who place petty nationalsim above collective interests.
tyson,
Dear God, do you seriously advocate a dictatorship for the protection of the people?
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”
Aren’t you one of those who oftens complains that the institution of monarchy is undemocratic and therefore unacceptable? How do you square this with your apparent belief that the peasants shouldn’t have a say in their lawmakers - that the very idea is anachronistic and should be sidestepped in favour of letting their betters get on with governing them as they see fit?
125. Well come on Andy, with so many ill educated people around, like those Islamicists for example, of course we need to have a dictatorship.
Secondly we also need to assopciate ourselves more often with the exploits of a convicted rapist, wife abuser and current freak show act…..
Larger national entities may well stop war between nations but they are a perfect recipe for civil war instead, just look at the the yoking together of disparate peoples via colonial rule (Iraq and the strange urge to try and keep it together being a case in point).
121 Ted- post war European peace has been secured by Nato, or the 1956 Treaty of Rome? I welcome both of them, and think both have played their part. Who knows which has been more influential?
I am thankful for the EU and only hope that we can move quickly into the security of one political entity. The sooner, the better, and we can look at back at the Eurosceptics as the fossils they actually are.
*cough* Can I just say that from what I saw of Gordon Brown on Newsnight, he seemed to do rather well?
And he is in some ways adopting old style Conservatism as well (see my blog for more)
I wonder how he will actually fair in his first crisis.
BTW, I will relay Peters tips tomorrow.
Having watched El Gordo on Newsnight, I have to ask the question - what is going to be the difference in policy terms between Brown and Blair? I couldn’t detect any in the programme. Everything Brown said has been said by Blair in the past. Nothing new whatsoever.
128 - How on earth could a united Europe survive? Nationalism would be fired and differences played up. Why try and make a continent more dangerous that way?
As someone who would be happier with a split in the UK the idea that we need larger political entities is just ludicrous. Yugoslavia needed to be split, the Soviet Union needed to be split, Iraq needs to be split etc etc.
124 That was what I hoped that you would say. Effectively, real democracy is good. Sham democracy is useless.
When you say “Our foreign and economic policies have been dictated as much by Europe, the global economy and the US since the start of the 20th century, perhaps earlier.” I can agree with you 100%, even if some people won’t face the facts.
I can recommend the book “Splendid Isolation” by Professor John Charmley. He demonstrates exactly how severely constrained Britain’s foreign policy was between 1874 and World War 1 at a time when the country was supposed to be at its most powerful. (It also demonstrates how Gladstone’s (not me!) noble plans for a “Concert of Europe” to sort out problems were thwarted by the selfish demands of some of our so-called “partners” even then).
What about the other point. If it is wrong for the UK to be narrow-minded and petty about sectional interests, then surely it is wrong for our 26 EU partners as well? That being the case, then France deserves the most criticism of all on that score (and I say that as someone with French ancestry, so don’t you dare call me racist!).
AS tyson has been good enough to explain his point of view at 124, I’d like to address it in detail:
124, tyson,
118-Gladstone- let me explain myself- I meant anachronistic sense of democracy in terms of people thinking that we can rule ourselves,
Who else is supposed to? The concept of democracy (as opposed to tyranny) is that the people being ruled choose the rulers - or, at the very least, have the regular opportunity to dismiss the rulers. You lose that, and you’re in a tyranny. It might be a benevolent tyranny in your eyes, but tyranny is what it would be.
…everything that we decide impacts only on ourselves,
No-one has believed that for centuries.
… that elections here really dictate the policies that are implemented here.
Shouldn’t they? Are you saying that you genuinely don’t care who gets into power. A Brown Premiership would be indistinguishable from one in a world where Howard won in 2005? From your posting history, you could have fooled me.
If we do not have control over policies implemented here, then we are in a real democratic deficit.
Our foreign and economic policies have been dictated as much by Europe, the global economy and the US since the start of the 20th century, perhaps earlier.
Seriously? Salisbury was told what to do by “Europe”? Asquith and Lloyd-George had no real control over their policies on the economy? Why all the kerfuffle about the “People’s Budget”? Of course the environment shapes the enveloped of possible policy choices - but that is by no means synonymous with “being dictated to”.
Our national interests are surely the same as our European allies?
And implicitly, theirs must be the same as ours, right? So if we just do what is in our interests, it would be in their interests too. Hmm.
Collectively we are stronger, individually weaker.
Which is never an argument for “everyone do what you are told”. Or for people obeying the Leader without question, because individuality is weakness.
Which Elections here are about as important as which football team we support.
You may assert that all you choose, but saying it doesn’t make it so. If your contentions above were true, then the more recent you get (from “the start of the 20th century or even earlier” up towards the present), the truer it would be. Right? So you will of course agree that the actions of the Thatcher governments were inevitable and unavoidable, and that things would have been no different if Foot had won in 1983 - just a different “Football Team” in Downing Street.
And long may it continue as long as we have idiotic, nationalistic Eurosceptics who place petty nationalsim above collective interests.
And into ad hominem personal abuse again. Says a lot about you, old chap, and none of it nice.
123 Meant the EU as a collective just stood by; Germany actively supported Croatia, Frtance just as actively Serbia and shamefully Hurd and Major through inaction rather than action were more than helpful to the Serbs.
Blair’s greatest legacy is working with Clinton to stop that genocidal conflict, thats quite