Sunday papers round-up
September 2nd, 2007-
Politics stories from today’s newspapers
There are no major stories today, as evidenced by the fact that most of the newspapers have different leads, and it doesn’t look as though there are any opinion polls out today either - although I’m sure that someone will correct me if there are.
However, there is still plenty of political news and comment available, and the following articles may be of interest:
The Sunday Times reports that Brown has come under more pressure as Gisela Stuart has now called for a referendum, while Matthew D’Ancona in the Sunday Telegraph offers his thoughts on the subject.
The Sunday Times also looks at Cameron’s “centre-right” strategy to take on Brown, while the Observer’s Andrew Rawnsley warns that the Conservatives can’t win by abandoning the centre ground.
Finally, returning to the referendum issue, the Independent on Sunday says that ministers “will come out fighting” this week against one, and that Brown is also expected to firmly rule out a referendum.
Paul Maggs “Double Carpet”
Guest Editor
Mike Smithson returns on 17th September
MessageSpace Advertising
Meanwhile …. with Nick Palmer and Jack W still tied after 24 recounts the PB Community demand a
http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/votes/recount_poster.jpe
No paper review of the News of the World ?!?!
Sorry Jack, not today - didn’t think that the Sharon Osbourne exclusive was quite pb material…..
BTW, your recount link doesn’t seem to be working.
The referendum question does look to be gaining momentum, and as an issue that is almost inevitably a slow-burn type thing that is possibly the biggest danger for Brown at the moment.
I write that because there’s nothing really pushing it as such - it’s a political campaign more or less in isolation - yet the government still seems to be losing the argument.
I wonder whether some of this goes back to the Brown coronation-election. There are (at least) two aspects to that. Firstly, some of those who wished to express a different view were denied the opportunity, even if they always knew that exercising the opportunity would be a futile gesture. Secondly, Brown’s (and Straw’s) ability to get virtually the entire PLP on-side for the election may have contributed to a bit of hubris where he is overly sure of being able to bring the PLP on-side for whatever he wants. Some, many perhaps, no doubt will; but others will be concerned both about the pledges they gave to the electorate and about the ability of the Tories to make hay on the issue.
As an aside, Ming is looking increasingly stupid by opposing calls. At least there’s some political logic to the government’s position - they don’t want to lose a referendum they think they probably would. True, the Lib Dems would also likely be on the losing side, but they’d also be suring up a key part of their constituency so that matters less (though life might be fun for them in the West Country).
With the TUC conference coming up before too long and calls for a referendum almost certain to be repeated there, the issue is not going to go away. Actually, this could be a difficult TUC conference for Labour despite - or perhaps because of - the relative proximity of a general election. The unions know they hold a very good hand if Brown wants to go early and even if the leaderships can be squared in terms of not demanding too much for their money, the membership and executives might be a different matter.
Cameron meanwhile, talks about the Broken Society in the context of education. Fine. He now has two trump cards to play at will - the referendum and a call for troop withdrawal from Iraq (which admittedly might take some getting past Liam Fox). He can afford to widen the scopt of the debate. Interesting times.
[3] No it isn’t - and I gave the Old Jacobite my vote in the comp, too. He’s the same as all the other politicians, takes his core consitutency for granted…
Sunday Herald scottish independence poll 35 yes 50 no 15 dont know
3 Double Carpet. Stupid !! The PB community demand a snow storm.
5 IA. So you deserted the Lib Dem candidates and voted for the Jacobite Party candidate ….. very sensible …. the claymore is in the post !!
From the international press - the 15 day Floor Crossing Window has opened in South Africa. National and local politicians can cross the floor during the window and retain their seats - adds a bit of excitement to the political year, though it seems to have got off to a slow start this time. Could be an interesting addition to British Politics; could have bets who gains the most support, on number of local authorities changing hands, on whether any MPs defect.
http://tinyurl.com/36×9cg
d’Ancona is interesting and I think right about Tony Blair and the EU referendum issue. Tony never sees a controversial issue without wanting to have a slam-bang public showdown about it: his experience is that if there’s a proper argument he always wins it in the end, and I think he enjoys the verbal battles for their own sake, as most of us enjoy anything we’re spectacularly good at.
Most of us see it in more pragmatic terms. Few people are familiar with the contents of the treaty (I posted pro and con web sources for it here a few weeks ago) - almost the entire campaign is based on the ‘But Blair promised!’ argument. I’ve put my case on that here before (essentially that the original document was a boring workaday package with constitutional garnishes that have now been stripped) and won’t argue that again here. But let me address an additional question: why don’t we want it anyway?
The reason is that if there was a referendum, political life would be convulsed for months, ostensibly over things like whether the EU should have an unfortunate chap trying to coordinate the members’ foreign policies, but essentially a proxy argument for whether we’re happy as members in the EU as it stands.
If the result were yes, it’d still be a colossal distraction from all the things that voters say they want debated, and in the end people would grumble about that (’Why don’t you get a policeman on my street instead of banging on about Europe?’). If the result were no, it’d stall the EU for years. Would it bring the government down? No. But it’s no way to run a country.
At one level, people like the idea of being consulted and have bought the ‘Blair promised!’ argument. But because there’s now little in the package that they can remember, let alone oppose, most people don’t really care. That’s why the supposed 120 Labour backbenchers prepared to vote for a referendum is going to melt like snow in the sun when it comes to it. (If you want advice on sex and drugs, ask seanT - if you want insight on the PLP, maybe not.) It’s also why the Tories aren’t really leading on it - they’ll give it a plug from time to time to harvest whatever feeling the press can whip up, but Cameron evidently has no intention of making it a central theme. It’s also why the LibDems won’t support a referendum.
If Brown is refusing to discuss any possibility of a referendum, this is a sure sign that there will be no election any time soon. Brown hopes to whip his own MPs and get Ming behind him to push the Constitution through Parliament helped by a few Tory renegades. Then at last Angela Merkel will agree to sleep with him.
Meanwhile II ….The “Observer” states that over the next few days there’ll be two new polls that show the Labour lead narrowing to three to four points :
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2160780,00.html
9 - Er, Nick - I don’t think it’s “Blair promised!”, it’s “Labour promised”. The manifesto doesn’t become invalidated just because Blair is no longer leader!
Another issues that has real potential to damage the Govt is the meanness of the payouts to seriously wounded soldiers (152 k to Ben Parkinson for loss of both legs, loss of spleen, spinal injuries, brain damage).
According to theyworkforyou.com, many MPs (e.g., our dear old, Iraq-spinning Nick Palmer MP) claim that amount or thereabouts in one year in expenses alone.
11 - Not sure how they’d know that to be honest, unless their listening to the spin from either Labour or Conservatives, probably Labour attempting to down play expectations… as it is I still don’t think anyone’s got a clue what the polls will say over the next week as the only polls we’ve got recently are those that we’re conducted over the bank holiday (with all the usual caveats that go with that)… so we’ll see what happens.
13. But who can doubt the splendid value for money that they provide?
13: While I also think the compensation sounds inadequate, Gwynfa, I’ll just point out that MPs don’t actually get most of the money for the expenses you’re referring to. The vast majority of the expenses bill is salaries paid directly to staff. Would you advocate MPs not having staff and therefore being unable to follow up most of the 100 or so constituents’ issues that come in every day? Or paying staff less (typical salary is £20K or so)? Or what? It’s a good example of a fair point being muddied by dragging in a dubious comparison.
Meanwhile III …. Nick Palmer’s support for massage parlours in Broxtowe has unintended consequences :
http://www.funnyville.com/funny-pictures/massage-cat.jpg
NickP@9.
Mostly garbage, I’m afraid.
a) Labour were elected on a manifesto committment to hold a referendum. Brown is practically the only EU leader to say that the Treaty is not 95%+ the same as the constitution. It is an issue of trust between the electorate and your manifesto committment.
Does Labour really respect the voter that little, that manifesto committments can be forgotten so easily.
b) We manage to elect governments for 5 years on a 3 week campaign with a (mostly) mature debate. Why then will a referendum debate take months and degenerate into a baseless fight over EU in or out? We could easily settle the issue in a 3 week treaty-based sinlge question referendum. IT would not, as you say, bring down the government.
Does Labour really not Trust the voters’ ability to debate the treaty and come to a conclusion in a mature way?
I have to say that Labour’s position and your own flip-flopping on the issue are without serious principle, and garner very little respect. Shame.
16. It’s a fair point, and one I’ve made on a number of occasions, when people have used the same argument about ‘expenses’.
I don’t know how the figures are published but it would be in the interests of parliament’s reputation - as well as being simply far more sensible - if the expenses figures for MPs were to be grouped into ‘personal’ (salary, pension, travel etc) and ‘office’ (staff, rent, stationery, post etc).
20 An admirably brief response
I wonder if Brown’s refusal to hold a refernedum will cause any Labour defections. Frankly, I’ve always been amazed that someone like Frank Field sits withg Labour and not the Tories…. Though Mr Field woul probably even be too right-winng even for Cameron’s Conservatives.
Interesting to hear the Observer are saying this weeks coming polls will show the gap between Labour and the Tories narrowing. It looks like someone is spinning to me.
Ted - was supposed to say SeanT_rant=off in those little html brackets… obviously Mike’s server thought it was real html… which is ironic that it really does have SeanT flags!!
Sorry to do a Snowy and disappear, but I can’t wait around to see if Nick replies as real life is beckoning for a while…
If I was Gordon I would call an election on the basis that he want’s a mandate for a radical new manifesto in which he incorporates moves to stop once and for all this country being run by oligarchs like Murdoch who for their own business reasons poison the minds of the population through their monopoly of the media.
Finally we could rid ourselves of this destructive Little Englander mentality that has been drip fed by the most reactionary insidious press in the world.
It’s time we started to lead a progressive Europe and stop being dragged in it’s wake. This wont happen while 40% of the print media is in the hands of one American and other parts are owned by various tax exiles.
This is a unique opportunity to reshape Britain and turn it into the enlightened country it should be. We bleat about bent bananas because to trivialize is to ridicule. It is insidious and if we don’t get rid of this poison now we probably never will have the chance again.
Gordon is certain to win an election against Cameron by a landslide this October and therefore he has a once-in-a-lifetime chance to radically change this country for the better. Blair also had the chance in ‘97 but he blew it. Gordon should go for it
Entertained at Robin and other Tories posing as guardians of the Labour manifesto. Haven’t heard them pressing us to deliver our commitment to, say, ID cards. Why not?
David Herdson’s suggestion is a good one, and I’d favour having staff employment simply centralised, with MPs in the same position as middle managers in a company - we would decide whom we wanted, but the employment position and all questions of fair treatment, holidays, etc. would be centrally-managed and there would be one central budget. The figures are currently published by MP in each category without grouping or comment, and the press of course lump them all together as extra MP income with Gwynfa’s implication that we’re on to a good thing.
19. “I don’t know how the figures are published but it would be in the interests of parliament’s reputation - as well as being simply far more sensible - if the expenses figures for MPs were to be grouped into ‘personal’ (salary, pension, travel etc) and ‘office’ (staff, rent, stationery, post etc). ”
there’s some sort of breakdown. For ex Nick’s £140,404 total expenses for 2005/2006 are divided as follow:
Cost of staying away from main home £21,634
London Supplement £0
Office running costs £21,515
Staffing Allowance £84,072
Members’ Travel £6,802
Members’ Staff Travel £803
Centrally Purchased Stationery £790
Stationery: Associated Postage Costs £3,911
Centrally Provided Computer Equipment £877
Other Costs £0
Whatever the polls say, they won’t be believed, except by those they favour.
There’s comment also from Portillo.
http://tinyurl.com/3xhx3n
Win or lose Brown should go in October, Brown should not go into the winter without a mandate. If Labour can hold about 38% it means the Tories recent onslaught has failed, Brown should take that as a signal to take the chance.
As the Tories found out in ‘92, there are worse things than losing an election, there’s winning one!
24. Paranoid fantasy at its finest.
26 - What is “london supplement”?
29. Inner London MPs don’t receive the Additional Costs Allowance (aka Cost of staying away from main home), but just a London Supplement (2,613£).
Outer London MPs can choose between the ACA or the London Supplement
27? A few weeks ago Portillo was arguing the awful consequences if it did go south should counsel Brown again. Value of bird in hand etc. He’s now arguing different?
31
Well Portillo never has known which way to turn, has he!
24. “Finally we could rid ourselves of this destructive Little Englander mentality that has been drip fed by the most reactionary insidious press in the world”
Really, Roger? I’m sure they’d agree in Burma or Zimbabwe or China or Belarus or various other places I could think of. Even returning to planet sensible, in comparing the UK with another English-speaking democratic country, Fox News and the rant-radio style doesn’t seem to have caught on here as it has there.
30 Have you seen Waller’s Wales edition?
27. An interesting point about the new immigration from Europe and that is the negative reaction from the right-wing press. The irony is that if the Polish economy suddenly started to boom and tens of thousands of our young people went to find work in Poland the same press who are complaining that we are being flooded would then proclaim it a disaster.
33. David. ‘I think therefore I am’ (It’s called the SeanT school of posting!)
Thanks, andrea - useful to have the figures spelled out.
To amplify the probably most controversial one: £21000 for the “cost of staying away from main home”. The main element of this is *either* rent *or* the interest section of a mortgage (capital repayments are not allowed): we are required to show rental or mortgage agreements to prove the sum being paid.
In my cases, I pay £1626/month for a small 1-bedroom flat in Westminster (I know it’s crazy, but that’s the going rate near Parliament). That takes up £19,500 of the allowance; the balance goes towards extra council tax etc.
Past controversies have arisen because MPs who were buying London property were criticised for paying the mortgage interest from the allowance, since they were making a profit on rising prices. In fairness, though, they would equally have made a loss if London property prices fell, and if they simply paid off the interest with the allowance they’d have been no closer to owning the property at the end than when they started.
David Herdson: while Burma and so on obviously have worse press, I’d argue that the US press is less biased than ours - the insidious habit of skewing the reporting section according to editorial preference hasn’t caught on there to nearly the same extent. If I tell you a political headline in a British paper you can have a good guess which paper it is - that’s not the case in America. The radio is of course another story.
“That takes up £19,500 of the allowance; the balance goes towards extra council tax etc.”
Why do you have to pay extra council tax?
I would say this was off topic, but there doesn’t really seem a topic for it to be “off”…
I wonder if the ageing of the electorate isn’t in part responsible for the decline in turn-out. Older people may be more likely to conclude either that which party is in power makes little difference in the great scheme of things (counterfactual histories tend to converge on real history, given long enough) or, like Portillo’s racist voter, that none of them are listening. Either way, they’re less likely to vote.
37 Less biased than ours? Have you read the New York Times or the New York Post?
What has annoyed you most this week survey
1) Livingstone blubbing over events happening 200 yrs before he was born?
2) Nelson Mandela getting another bloody statue despite the fact that he is still alive (rather bad form I say)
3) Her Royal Cryness and her 10th anniversary of her death so that we could all have the freedom to use the internet and all that
4) Getting asked if you want a a half price toblerone in W H smith ?
Looking at post 24. Did Millfield man post this rant from his designer pad in fashionable Covent Garden or the villa in the south of France?
Wherever the expensive home, he once again demonstrates his complete ignorance of the UK. Perhaps he could travel by tube one day rather than taxi (presumably charged up to a client)
24 is a typical comment from the candidate for pseud of the year.
I am quite amused by the idea that Gordon Brown will firmly rule out a referendum! The Observer has an interesting leader today basically calling Labour cowards for not making the case for Europe.
If Brown does rule one out he is going to look a bit silly when he eventually has to cave in, or if he does not, he is going to get a battering in the press in the run up to a GE.
So lets look at this “reactionary insidious press”:
The Sun - populist, generally supportive of New Labour and Blair/Brown
The Daily Mirror - populist, would follow the Labour line whatever Labour did
The Daily Mail - wishes it was still the 1950’s but so far generally supportive of Gordon Brown
The Daily Telegraph - still thinks it is the 1950’s, doesn’t like Cameron, supportive of Brown
The Guardian - thinks it’s still 1968, anti-Iraq and not particularly taken by New Labour, occasional nods to Cameron
The Independent - isn’t at all independent, virulently opposed to Iraq, Green, anti-Tory, wishes it was 1967 again
The Times - for a decade the voice of Blair, default still New Labour
Financial Times - edited by Ed Balls
39. Surely all the evidence points to the reverse being true - that older people are more likely to vote.
44 you missed the Daily Express–house prices, Diana,house prices, Diana ,house prices ,Diana
Re 8, What a remarkable idea. A bit look the footie transfer window.
Innocent - I think you may be right about ageing and turnout, but not in the way you say! Given the fact that the numbers of over 65s in the population, and their tendency to vote more than younger people anyway, I think younger voters are feeling there is no point to voting because of the stagnation effect applied by the large nuber of older voters.
Re 8, Ted, having tried your link, it appears not to work
The Express is the worst for ‘grief pornography’, Diana, McCanns etc.
Seeing as it was a Mirror journalist who managed to screw up the McCann investigation by fingering the apparently innocent Murat and diverting resources at a crucial time, I would like to see her prosecuted. Maybe that would remind the gutter press that they are there to reflect reality not create their own warped version of it.
46
too easy to forget the old Express since it stopped being a newspaper and became an Al Fayed comic book…
Re 9, Nick Palmer “It’s also why the Tories aren’t really leading on it - they’ll give it a plug from time to time to harvest whatever feeling the press can whip up, but Cameron evidently has no intention of making it a central theme.”
Actually the reason why it is not our central theme is that if it were the press would bang on about “same old tories” and we would not get a word in edge ways about anything else.
47 - I thought it sounded more like the late Mike Reid’s estimable ‘Runaround’ TV show.
alex at 38: MPs from outside London have to pay extra council tax becuase their job requires them to have a second home in London. I wouldn’t pay council tax to Westminster if I had an IT job near my home in Notts, for instance.
Punter at 40: Yes, I’ve read the NYT and WP, and also the Washington Times, their right-wing rival. They all seem to me to be willing to report the facts pretty neutrally in the news section, and then editorialise in the editorial pages. The British press, almost without exception, blurs the two. I agree that some of them blur it in a left-wing way and (rather more) in a right-wing way; in all cases they tend to blur in an anti-government way, whether it’s Tory or Labour. Read Major’s memoirs if you’re in doubt.
A separate point is that even left-wing papers are unwilling to publish pro-government views on some issues, even in the editorial pages. It is extremely difficult to get a hearing at all in the British press for ID cards, for instance - if the project is going well it’s not reported, if there are hitches they are front page news, and the editorial pages almost exclusively give space to opponents (I’ve tried to get response articles in, without success).
47 Tried posting the full link but it gets caught in the trap
another try at tiny url
http://tinyurl.com/27bodl
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Read the latest column now NEWS / SHOWBIZTORIES ‘SLASHING LABOUR LEAD’
Tory leader David Cameron
Sunday September 2,2007
Have your say(1)
Chances of a snap election shrank last night as a survey suggested Gordon Brown’s opinion poll “bounce” had gone flat.
The private survey, conducted for the Conservative Party by the research firm Populus, found Labour’s lead had been slashed to just one per cent as voters in the Midlands and the south deserted the Prime Minister in droves.
The poll put Labour on 37 per cent, with the Tories on 36 and the Liberal Democrats on 16. Three weeks ago one poll gave Labour a 10-point lead, fuelling speculation that Mr Brown would call an early election.
A senior Tory said last night: “After a difficult period we have closed the gap. The gloss is coming off Gordon Brown and David Cameron is striking a chord. Morale is very high and we are ready for anything, including an early election.”
Tory insiders claim Mr Cameron’s tough stance on crime and Europe, with proposals to scrap inheritance tax on first homes, have helped to boost the party’s fortunes but the polling was conducted before the Tory leader’s comment last week that immigration levels were “too high”.
The Tories will attempt to build on their momentum this week with fresh announcements on health and education, including a pledge to give teachers greater protection from malicious complaints by pupils. Mr Cameron will argue that improving education is the key to increasing social mobility that has stalled under Labour.
Labour sources insist Mr Brown is still to make a final decision on a snap election this autumn. A Mori poll yesterday gave Labour a five-point lead. One insider claimed a decision on an early election was “50-50”, with some speculating that an announcement could come as early as this week.
Schools Secretary Ed Balls, one of the Prime Minister’s closest allies, insisted Mr Brown was not preoccupied with the decision.
In an interview being screened on GMTV today he said: “If the public thought that Gordon Brown’s main calculation was ‘Shall I dash for an election?’ they’d think he wasn’t really focused on the job.
“He’s actually focused on delivering for families.”
Mr Balls also dismissed calls for a referendum on the European constitution, saying: “The British people want us to get on with the things that really matter.”
The Tories insist they are ready for a snap general election if Mr Brown calls one. They will unveil a new poster campaign this week to counter Labour claims Mr Cameron lacks substance.
TORIES ‘SLASHING LABOUR LEAD’
02.09.07, 10:49am
All the political parties should be ready for a snap election as Kaiser Brown will only call an election when it suits him. He is a man running scared afterall I bet there are millions who had healthy pension funds before he stole great chunks of it that will not be voting labour ever again.
He should go to the polls sooner rather than later so we the British public can decide for ourselves who we want as PM and not to have to put up with a man with absolute contempt for the electorate of this country.
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All rights reserved. By viewing this site you agree to our Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy.nteresting stories in today’s Scottish press:-
David Herdson and Andy Cooke
Just caught up with your response last night to the Marx discussion. Without hijacking this thread again I wanted to make the following points;
Marx is massively misrepresented, misunderstood, and unduly maligned- he was writing in the late 19th century- he could hardly have known what the totalitarian regimes would do in his name 30-50 years later- he would have been horrified I guess.
- for me a as an economist his work (Das Capital) is one of the best analysis on how capital works, and still viewed by most economists (left and right) as one of the greatest economic works in history. After all Marx was first and foremost an economist- his political philosophy was a sideshow- but it is this that many people judge Marx for.
On a personal level- I was trying to make the point that not all people who despise rampant capitalism and materialism are poor, or envious . I find ostentatious consumption particularly unappealing. Its time is probably shortlived anyhow. The state is increasingly going to have to take measures to control consumption to safeguard the planet.
Hayek and “The Road to Serfdom”- a great work and compelling work I might add, but climate change is going to force all governments to take an increasngy active role in managing, regulating and possibly even dismantling capitalism.
Marx tried to predict the next phase of human economic development post capitalism. I still cannot say that he was completley wrong- human kind still has quite alot of time ahead of it. What we can say is Marx’s application to large scale government in the 20th century was wrong, but there have been small scale examples of communist ventures working very effectively- kibbutz, eco communities.
Maybe Marx was simply way, way ahead of his time, or maybe we will see human development veering into a direction that no one could possibly predict now.
37 “I pay £1626/month for a small 1-bedroom flat in Westminster.”
Nick - Why don’t you have a word with SeanT? I’m sure he wouldn’t mind you sharing his flat when in Town.
54 Well the NYT is certainly not seen as suchas such stateside. As for the NYP how Democrats see it was summed up by the delight when they called Kerry’s VP choice incorrectly “fair, balanced and wrong!” Was the Democrat jibes
To be fair, US newspapers have a history of keeping the opinion and news sections strictly separated, although yes, they argue very forcefully in the editorials.
Nick doesn’t seem to appreciate the TV networks though. The main one, Fox News, is less biased to one side but more outright propaganda for the extremes of the Republican party. My very right-wing Grandfather (has voted UKIP) was over there and said he couldn’t stomach what he described as “worthy of Goebells”! The rest of the networks are also afraid to be labelled “liberal” and thus slant away from serious criticism of the Right.
Sorry messed up my e.mail and links to various articles.
Was going to make the points:-
Today for first time the press are picking up on the Tories private poll. Hence their speculation re next few polls.
Interesting stories in Scottish press today. Will try to introduce the links soon.
1. Scottish Sunday Express - Douglas Alexander personally responsible for recent multiple vote election fiasco.
2. Scotland on Sunday - Salmom & SNP cash for access!
59. Yes, but people in the US seem to regard it as bias if you print facts that don’t agree with your side (e.g. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, the vast majority of scientists agree that man-made global warming is occurring). It’s a phenomenon best described by Stephen Colbert: “Reality has a well-known liberal bias”.
57. I have to get on now, but I will respond to your points re Marx after I went last night later. Needless to say, I greatly disagree.
‘reality has a well known liberal bias’
what arrogant tripe
There is a ‘liberal’ report circulating close to govenment that says the criminal age should be raised to perhaps 18. How much ‘reality’ did the ‘liberal ‘ authors use to compile this report then?
I would love to see (from about as far away as Saturn)the effects of this if the law was ever changed-My god ,its one thing ‘liberals’ thinking htis stuff its another if they actually believe they are ‘one with reality’
NickP, your insights into the thinking of the PlP are useful, sometimes surprising and unquestionably better-informed than mine - and they are always welcome.
But your insights into the referendum issue are embarrassingly pointless and foolishly self-serving, given your own personal record of flipflops on this matter. Why should we believe a word of what you say?
To go over your record on the EU referendum one more time:
As we all know, in a dramatic display of intense political conviction, you voted against a referendum in 2004.
Then in 2005 you dramatically… changed your mind… and decided that referendums were great, and you definitely wanted one on the Constitution. As you said at the time, this was because you believe in principle in referendums. And you were really happy we were having one on the Constitution.
Then, in an even more dramatic display of political courage, in 2007 you changed your mind AGAIN and you decided that actually you didn’t like referendums at all, and you thought the Constitution actually wasn’t that important, so you didn’t want a vote - even though you definitely wanted a vote on principle two years previously - a year after you said you did NOT want a vote.
As I said before, it seems to me that on this issue you do not actually have any underlying political principles. You will say what you are told to say, in the hope perhaps of political promotion. On the subject of the EU your record of switches, flipflops and outright fibs paints you, I am afraid, as a simple careerist.
A period of silence on this issue, from yourself, would probably be your best course, unless you have something to say on the PlP.
Good morning!
57 The important thing about capitalism is that over the course of 250 years, it’s generated a steadily improving standard of living for a growing proportion of the World’s population. Prior to that, overall living standards would have risen or fallen in individual societies, but they never rose on a sustained basis. If we were to abandon capitalism, we’d probably have to abandon any thought of sustained improvements in the standard of living.
Capitalism has also helped dismantle all sorts of hierarchies. It may sound unpleasant to value people solely on the basis of how much money they can generate, but it’s preferable to a World in which your status was determined by your birth, or how successful you were as a conqueror.
Re 55, Ted, many thank, what a curious system!
A lot of loony stuff being said on here today!!
Tyson: “The state is increasingly going to have to take measures to control consumption to safeguard the planet.” I found it hard not to laugh at this!
Roger: “Finally we could rid ourselves of this destructive Little Englander mentality that has been drip fed by the most reactionary insidious press in the world.” Oh dear. The press don’t agree with you.. DESSTROOOY THEM!!
Tyson: “Maybe Marx was simply way, way ahead of his time, or maybe we will see human development veering into a direction that no one could possibly predict now.” Another classic. Keep dreaming mate
Also, some disappointingly poor arguments from Mr. Palmer this morning. On the “press” (they don’t like it up ‘em) and on the EU constitution. Nick, despite me disagreeing with you most of the time, your arguments are usually MUCH better than that.
Anyway, I can’t be ar$ed debating this on Sunday. Just wanted to drop in to tell you all how silly this thread is today and that you should relax, calm down and go have a beer.
Right. Sunday Lunch. I’m off for my Roast Pork and apple sauce.
Yum yum..
Re 67, Sean Fear “Capitalism has also helped dismantle all sorts of hierarchies. It may sound unpleasant to value people solely on the basis of how much money they can generate, but it’s preferable to a World in which your status was determined by your birth, or how successful you were as a conqueror.”
How dare you bring reality in to a debate about Marxism
(Well said BTW)
58. Peter. The Odd Couple. I would go SeanT as Oscar and NickP as Felix.
70 Thanks. It would also explain why some nineteenth century Conservatives were very hostile to capitalism (they believed that one’s social position ought to be determined by one’s birth).
9
‘Most of us see it in more pragmatic terms. Few people are familiar with the contents of the treaty (I posted pro and con web sources for it here a few weeks ago) - almost the entire campaign is based on the ‘But Blair promised!’ argument. I’ve put my case on that here before (essentially that the original document was a boring workaday package with constitutional garnishes that have now been stripped) and won’t argue that again here.’
What you seem to be saying is the electorate won’t be able to get their heads round the constitution / treaty,a referendum would ensure that people are familar with its contents.
Basically a list of feeble excuses why we cannot have a referendum and why the Labour party should now renege on it’s 2005 election pledge.
9 and 73. IMHO, parties should stick to their manifesto commitments unless new and compelling circumstances make that unrealistic.
Here the only circumstance seems to be that Brown thinks he can get away without honouring his party’s manifesto commitment.
24 He certainly wouldn’t win a landslide on the sort of manifesto you’re proposing.
37
‘In my cases, I pay £1626/month for a small 1-bedroom flat in Westminster (I know it’s crazy, but that’s the going rate near Parliament). That takes up £19,500 of the allowance; the balance goes towards extra council tax etc.’
Try living in other parts of London which are a lot cheaper & give the long suffering taxpayer a break,also commuting to work might give you some experience of the transport system the rest of us plebs have to put up with.
(Das Capital) is one of the best analysis on how capital works, and still viewed by most economists (left and right) as one of the greatest economic works in history.
No, it isn’t. Stop deluding yourself.
75 When you think Brown will call the Election
Ted at 44. It isn’t who the newspapers support that I’m complaining about (though I’d argue with your list!) but the way everything is ‘black’ or ‘white’. When you remove the myriad shades of grey that makes Ansel Adams so compulsive you reduce everything to Good/Bad Right/Wrong which not only makes the newspapers prejudices easier to sell but encourages a bland view of the world which makes our population seem ignorant when compared to other more nuanced Europeans.
78 -
He should call one for October.
He would like to call one in May 2008 instead.
He won’t feel that it is safe to do so by next March.
He will wait until the last possible moment.
October is his chance.
80 I’ve always thought as long as he can without drawing the Sunny Jim comparison, so barring huge poll leads next spring it’ll be autumn my best guess but Autumn 2009
80. October is his ONLY opening but not for the reason you suggest. In October he can say he wants a fresh manifesto under a new leader. In May next year it can only seem opportunistic and the electorate historically have taken a dim view of calling unnecessary elections. Witness Ted Heath.
79. Strangely enough though, those continentals, so superior to your own “ignorant” compatriots, ALSO voted down the EU Constitution, in France and Holland.
Crivens! that doesn’t sound very “nuanced” does it? And what about those Frenchies who vote for Le Pen? Millions of ‘em?! How “nuanced” is that?
Woger, you are a moron. You basically think everyone who doesn’t agree with you shouldn’t be trusted with a vote. Indeed you think twittering old duffers coming to the end of a pointless career in advertising, burdened with liberal guilt about all the money they made making films about cat litter, should decide everything.
However, while the great unwashed across the world are all worthy of your patronising concern and your ill-concealed contempt, you are generally in favour of brown and black people because they suffer racism.
By contrast, white people, especially poor white British people, get your greatest hatred, because they are ignorant and not “nuanced”.
Weirdly enough, though, the Brits are the one population in Europpe never to have seriously toyed with Fascism in the last hundred years. But that doesn’t matter. In your eyes they are still “ignorant”.
There is a word for people like you which is blunt but highly apposite. I’ll refrain from using it cause it’s Sunday.
Roger @ 24 re EU & little Englanders — remember many on the left oppose the EU. Withdrawal was Labour Party policy not so long ago.
37. Past controversies have arisen because MPs who were buying London property were criticised for paying the mortgage interest from the allowance, since they were making a profit on rising prices. In fairness, though, they would equally have made a loss if London property prices fell, and if they simply paid off the interest with the allowance they’d have been no closer to owning the property at the end than when they started.
You speak as if house prices are not influenced by government policy. Housing is the biggest expense for everyone and giving MPs a vested interest in seeing the price go up is not in the interests of the people.
The scale of irresponsible lending has been reported since at least 2003 (see this story from the BBC about buyers being encouraged to lie about their incomes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3222053.stm) If action had been taken to stop this sort of thing earlier and properly regulate the mortgage industry then we wouldn’t now be faced with the collapse of a speculative bubble in housing which will affect everyone.
“SHOWBIZTORIES SLASHING LABOUR LEAD’ ” Lol is that headline intentional?
“Past controversies have arisen because MPs who were buying London property were criticised for paying the mortgage interest from the allowance, since they were making a profit on rising prices”
Another controversy usually raises from Outer London MPs who claim the full or almost full ACA instead of the London Supplement…especially as there’re usually cases of MPs from the same borough with one claiming just the London Supplement and the other claiming the full ACA
79. Yes, if only we could be as enlightened as France which gives fascists consistenly 10-20% of the vote.
67. It has also delivered some of the greatest advances in communication, defeating illness and learning. Yay capitalism!
65. I see we have a new creature. Good to meet you right is right! I hope you will be fulfilling your creature duties properly and taking all my comments in a similarly out of context fashion.
Now, Tyson, where were we…
248 on the last thread. “no self respecting school of economics would discredit Marxist economics which are as relevant now as they ever were”
Ah I see, so the Austrian school and the Chicago school accepts parts of Marxist economics does it? Which bits precisely? Or are they not self respecting, despite being the source for economic policy of most Western governments for the last 15 years? The “standard reading” of an economics degree is in there on the same basis as geocentrism is taught as part of a physics degree. Marx’s theories of use value were washed away by the marginal revolution shortly after his death.
You divide between his economics and his political predictions but they were one and the same thing, as any Marxist will argue that they must be studied together as “political economy”. His political predictions were based on the belief that economic dialectic materialism caused political change, and the state was only the expression of the economically powerful class. His predictions for the future were based on the belief that the middle classes would get squeezed and separate to become either bourgeosie or proletariat - he was wrong. He attributed to capitalism what was caused by overpopulation.
Re Marx, I also have to point out that his writings took place after the Great Reform Act in the UK, after universal male suffrage had been used in France and the United States, and after places like Liege and New Jersey had given the vote to women and blacks for half a century. He was anti-democracy and was quite open about it.
83.SeanT. I don’t exclude myself. The David Herdsons and the Stodges are much more rare than the likes of you or me.
I heard an ‘Any Questions’ yesterday and after the panel answered a question on the EU treaty the audience were asked whether they supported the treaty or were against it. Surely the sensible third question was ‘who would prefer to hear a full debate on the subject before making up your mind?’
It must have struck you when travelling through the Middle East that the people you speak to have an obvious wisdom and an ability to see several facets of an argument that is very rarely excercised in Britain.
It’s clearly not that their IQ is higher or that their educational standards are better. So it must be an environment where discussion is encouraged-probably through generations-and solutions have to be argued.
Nick P: ‘I pay £1626/month for a small 1-bedroom flat in Westminster (I know it’s crazy, but that’s the going rate near Parliament). That takes up £19,500 of the allowance; the balance goes towards extra council tax etc.’
I had a quick look on Rightmove and you could get a flat within a mile of Westminster for less than a thousand pounds, and if you were willing to travel two miles you could get a flat for under £500.
Well when you are spending other people’s money…
90. Actually many people I know from the Middle East have seriously unnuanced views vis a vis the Israeli-Arab conflict and the War on Terror. And that goes for both sides.
90 Roger - it’s quite an easy discussion and most people get it quite quickly. At heart it comes down to whether you believe that the UK should accept that its future lies within a federalist Europe, accepting an ever increasing transfer of power to European institutions (democratic perhaps) for the economic and social benefits claimed or you don’t.
The reform treaty changes the three pillar model of Europe adopted post Maastricht and significantly widens the competence of the European Parliament and Commission. It reduces in many areas the veto of single states and replaces it with a qualified majority. The latter changes are necessary if the former are accepted otherwise the new model doesn’t work. Otherwise leave things as they are - Europe hasn’t fallen apart without these changes.
91. Seeing that MPs don’t have offices in parliament, they need somewhere close by to work in the short times between debates, votes etc. A flat two miles away simply isn’t practical.
If I may make an observation without being accused of being an intermittant sniper, roger’s accusation that the papers see everything in black and white terms is the best joke of the day.
91. You can’t expect a socialist MP to slum it with the great unwashed, though, surely?
16. Good grief - 100 or so constituents’ issues that come in every day!
Did not relise it was so many! That is a lot of work, just out of interest does a marginal seat produce more issues than a safe seat? I should imagine that in a marginal seat you have to be more proactive for obvious reasons. Other than Seat specific issues, what is the most frquent issue that crosses an MP’s desk at this time - I bet it is not the EU!
I once took interest in one of J Paxmen’s books on the role of MP’s and a members. The book where he metions the Tory MP a dog and several women! It said another tory MP used to put much of his post bag in the bin! (The Anon MP, said he did not believe in being a social worker). Interstingly this MP was in a safe seat, i have a vague idea of who it might have been but cannot be sure! I think the said MP has left the commons though now.
94 ‘Seeing that MPs don’t have offices in parliament’
Office of Nick Palmer MP, Room 254 Portcullis House.
91. To be fair i looked at a flat in St Annes gate (i think) in 2000 for rent and it was something like £700 a month. Given the amount property prices have gone up since then i would suggest that the flat Nick refers to his of reasonable rent for the area.
98. I stand corrected.
96. Yeah, you’d think Labour MPs, being so keen on immigration, would want to go and live in multiculturally enriched and marvellously diverse areas of Brixton, Peckham, or maybe Tower Hamlets, where they can buy yams at 3am and chat with the energetic local youngsters about gun crime.
Instead they seem to prefer to live in areas that Tyson would describe as “hideously white”, amongst people that Roger would describe as “ignorant and un-nuanced”.
Weird that.
On a different subject i think this ministerial gaffe has gone relatively unnoticed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6974814.stm
Douglas Alexander has dismissed reports that Gordon Brown could announce a snap election this week. I think by doing this he has walked straight into a tory trap. For in the future the tories or more likely the media will say: you commented on this before - what is the position now!
I do think Douglas Alexander is a bit out of his depth at the level he is at this time. It will be interesting to see how his sister? relates to Brown and the knock on relationship with Douglas Alexander if and when there is a conflict of interest between Scottiish Labour and Brown.
99. It would not have been as grand as “nick’s” flat though!
101 - As a matter of fact, many MPs of all parties live in Kennington or Vauxhall; within the division bell area, and hardly non-diverse or bereft of crime.
101. Good point SeanT, especially when such areas are so near, so well-served by public transport, and, if I am to believe NuLabour, crime has fallen so steadily.
I thought nick had a rented flat? or is it another one?
Millholt Investments Ltd; a family company owning a flat and some investments.
Enough of this small minded attacks on Nick - the original post was I think wrong in making a comparison between MPs costs and the poor treatment of wounded servicemen.
Question there is why the Government has a policy which limits the compensation for servicemen well below that of other employees and has artificial rules on what counts towards that compensation which don’t apply elsewhere.
Added to the state of servicemen’s accommodation, the poor treatment of servicemen by the NHS, the lack of equipment and the overly long tours of duty it displays the MoD and Governments failure to give those following it’s orders at the risk of death and injury the respect and attention they deserve. Prioritising for example the re-decoration of the MoD over that of servicemen’s homes
To give Nick a fair hearing on this, may I ask what his Westminster flat is mainly used for?
102. With the election in October - I’d just like to say - I told you so!
Re 72, Sean Fear, “70 Thanks. It would also explain why some nineteenth century Conservatives were very hostile to capitalism (they believed that one’s social position ought to be determined by one’s birth).”
Hmm..
How many of the Conservative party actually believed that?
107 ‘Enough of this small minded attacks on Nick’
I, at least, aren’t attacking Nick just asking him to justify his use of taxpayer’s money. I think it is the measure of the man that he details his expenses on this blog. I wish over MPs were that open.
102 I don’t see it as a gaffe. He only said no announcement this week. He carefully excluded next week or the week after etc. Hardly surprising as GB will want to see the post silly season polls first. As it stands I’d still be extremely surprised at this Autumn
90 yes woger, the Middle East is famed for its free and open debates where arguments are made in a climate of intellectual curiosity and a frank willingness to discuss difficult issues openly and in a spirit of mutual respect and trust.
I can’t think of any other region in the world where the intellectual climate is so lively and rich in nuance.
This is one of your best comdy posts in a long time and it really cheered my Sunday afternoon.
Well my take on MP’s expenses is that a reduction is only really going to be achieved by a reduction in Number of MP’s. That said going on the case loads of MP’s that Nick has said he has per day, an average MP with a larger case load would obviously need more help. But the reduction in the numbers of MP’s would obviously mean Salary and some expenses become obselete for the members who are abolished!
Interestingly, some of the savings could be ploughed into increasing the remaining MP’s pay. Certainly you would get economies of scale from reducing the numbers of MP’s as computer equipment, stationery, members travel, housing and office allowances etc (think they can even claim for food) will all deminish.
Re 94, TJM “91. Seeing that MPs don’t have offices in parliament, they need somewhere close by to work in the short times between debates, votes etc. A flat two miles away simply isn’t practical.”
Portcullis House? (next door to Parliament
112. True,
I see it as a gaffe though as he should just have said nothing! That is a politicians best tool sometimes! It’s the old hosteges to fortune that i am talking about. Now he has said it once, in the future it could come back to haunt him.
Alexander has left it open for an anouncement after the period has expired, i appreciate that but what i am thinking is he has set a precident - that is why i call it a gaffe. All these stories about Labour preparing for an election and then Alexander displelling it in the short term, makes the Brown team look a bit weak.
114. But the number of cases per constitutent would remain the same, meaning that fewer MPs would result in an ever higher amount of social work for each one.
I think the Commons has about the right number at the moment. The place to reduce the number is in the Upper House. If we’re going to have it elected by PR why do we need any more in there than say, a hundred? It would encourage a collegiate feel where members know each other and can work together to amend Commons legislation, and also keep elections competitive because every member would be far closer to the bottom of the list.
What is interesting is the London MPs claiming the ACA (Additional Costs Allowance/cost of staying away from main home) instead of the London Supplement. As I said replying to Alex’s question earlier, Inner London MPs can just claim the London Supplement (£2,613) whilst Other London MPs can choose between the London Supplement and the ACA (maximum: £21,634).
There’re some MPs claiming the ACA, but just a small amount, less than the London Supplement.
However others claim a great proportion of it:
Jacqui Lait (21,222)
Gardiner (21,620)
Butler (15,442)
Ann Keen (15,794)
Alan Keen (14,494)
Ottaway (21,634)
Jon Cruddas (21,535)
Andy Love (21,634)
Joan Ryan (19,333)
John Austin (19,636)
Tony McNulty (8,251)
Gareth Thomas (17, 209)
Andrew Dismore (5,249)
Mike Gapes (21,548)
Henry Cohen (21,634)
John Horam (7,639)
Derek Conway (21,644)
Andrew Rosindell (21,634)
Angela Watkinson (17,040)
(I’ve looked at it fast…so I can have missed some)
Interesting that MPs representing seats in the same borough have made different choices
118 Have you seen Waller on Wales. Views?
115. Yes, a horrible gaffe of mine. An MP once told me that he didn’t have an office to use, but that must have been a special case, probably a temporary one. Maybe its just that in Portcullis House there are too many spies of other parties about?
119. Not yet, I’m still seeing the others as I had a busy time last weeks and I hadn’t time to watch them
Re 113, Kingbongo “90 yes woger, the Middle East is famed for its free and open debates where arguments are made in a climate of intellectual curiosity and a frank willingness to discuss difficult issues openly and in a spirit of mutual respect and trust.
I can’t think of any other region in the world where the intellectual climate is so lively and rich in nuance.
This is one of your best comdy posts in a long time and it really cheered my Sunday afternoon. ”
Actually you would be surprised. Roger is right in part at least. Politics is discussed far more in places like Syria with far more nuance than here.
My father joked once that if you put 3 Syrians in a room they would form 5 political parties!
However the obvious problems of the Middle East, in particular oppressive regimes and of late Islamic loons do cramp the debate somewhat.
If we’re going to have it elected by PR why do we need any more in there than say, a hundred?
I would absolutly agree with you there, the number of Peers is a scandal. I would a gree that about a hundred would do.
I’ve just read some of the postings from yesterday. There is this Tyson character, who dislikes democracy because it gives too much power to people who read ‘The Sun’. And this bloke was nominated as one of this site’s ‘poster of the year’?
121 In summary I thought he was right to pick out Newport East for the Lib Dems but surprised he did not then mention Newport West for the Tories. This is especially because he mentioned Bridgend as an outer Tory target. Maybe he was trying to generate interest in each region, but if Bridgend ever went (not that I can see it) Paul Flynn would surely be gone long before that. I’d even put Gower ahead of Bridgend for the Tories. I think Cardiff West and South may also move into semi marginal status next time. Swansea West he thought was moving away from the Lib Dems, and the fact they have yet to select a candidate leads me to agree. It just doesn’t indicate seriousness of intent. He also picked out Vale of Clwyd and Clwyd South as hopeful areas for the Tories, while basically saying Labour are very much on the defensive in North Wales. Although Wrexham looks safe enough for now, only Alyn and Deeside really retains “fortress” status as things look
On the House of Lords and only 100 of them. very bad idea IMO.
One of the advantages of the current house is that there are experts in almost every field, so they consider things more.
Not so the HOC I am afraid.
Reducing the numbers would jepordise that.
16. While Gwynfa thinks that MPs get paid too much, Tory MPs think they get paid too little. See
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/6ec8a45c-4757-11dc-9096-0000779fd2ac.html
Senior Tories admit privately that the opportunity to supplement their £60,675 MP’s salary, plus expenses and allowances, is a factor in accepting outside jobs. “I’m not going to be disingenuous. One of the reasons why people do this is to boost their income,” a shadow cabinet member, who did not want to be named, told the FT. “But you don’t want a political class