Is this smart spin - or just dumb?
November 6th, 2007
Why does Gord allow this sort of thing?
On Queen’s Speech day and coinciding with good polling news for Labour the Times is carrying the above story on how Number 10 managed to “con” journalists up and down the country that a local school would be featured in the Prime minister’s big education speech last week.
They all ran the story but then when the speech was made there was no mention of any schools by name.
If I was journalist on one of those papers I would be spitting blood about this deception and it’s interesting how other parts of the media are picking it up.
All this has done is made the media even more sceptical about anything Number 10 says and put reporters on alert for future attempts to manipulate them.
The stupid thing is that it was always going to be found out. Dumb..dumb..dumb.
Mike Smithson
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Is a mere one point lead for Labour - in a Times Populus poll let’s not forget - really all that “good news” for them?
Obviously good enough for Roger to resurface, but then it’s pretty grim for Labour at present, so anything to cling on to has to be grasped.
Re The Queen’s Speech, how much longer does poor old Her Maj have to be subjected to this annual charade? It must have been bad enough having to read through gritted teeth the guff Blair made her read out for a decade; it must be worse to have to read out Brown’s tractor production figures for the next 2 years!
This will be Labours problem come the next election - nobody is listening to them and if they are they dont believe anything they hear. pathetic.
Bob, no one makes her do it. Whenever Gladstone got in, Victoria used to sulk in the Isle of Wight…
3 - perhaps she should refuse to do it on the basis that Brown has no mandate. Or send some minor Royal to do it, as a mark of her disgust - Viscount Linley or someone like that…
Telegraph headline today “Brown to build eco towns” must be the 8th time hes announced that in the past 3 years zzzzzzzzz
Interesting that The Times have run this story. They also give a negative spin on the poll. Could they be preparing to ditch Brown?
4 naughty Bob - you know the Viscount as a minor royal doesn’t do public performances.
Answer to Mike’s question - it’s just dumb
6
After the no-election disclosure was made to Marr of the BBC, I suspect most national newspapers have decided to give Gordon the benefit of no doubt. On anything.
Newspapaers don’t like being ignored. It negates their existence…so if GB won’t play ball with them…
Ho-hum, sounds more like cock-up than conspiracy. It’s unwise ever to name specific schools which can then become the focus of unwarranted media attention. Brown and his immediate advisers should have known this. Possibly, other more experienced advisers then overruled them.
But of course it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.
Saw this highlighted by Michael White in the BBC paper review. I bet it seemed liked smart spin at the time, now it looks cynical and manipulative which would be in keeping with stunts like the trip to Iraq and announcing misleading troop withdrawal figures.
From last thread - answer to David Herdson on political funding
- sorry long post!
In France, donations from individuals are limited to 7500 euros (around £5k)per year. However no donations from companies are authorized.
The public funding of parties is based on two elements:
- the number of votes in the last general election (1.66 euro per vote (£1.16) for each party getting more than 1% of the vote in more than 50 of the 577 constituencies + different rules in overseas territories);
- the number of MPs and senators (around 45000 euros (£31k)for each one).
There is an important financial penalty for parties with a “gender gap” in candidates.
The total bill for the taxpayer is around 73 million euros (£50M) for 2007.
Sarkozy’s UMP gets around 27 million euros a year (it could have been 31 million without the “gender penalty”), the socialists 18 millions, Bayrou’s UDF-MODEM gets around 3 millions.
I agree with you that public funding is unpopular but at least it solved most problems of corruption that existed before the beginning of the 1990ies.
And there is a solution to your last point (”parties always spend at least as much money as is available “): a tight spending cap.
It was introduced in France in 1962 (and much more controlled since 1990) and has been quite a success: you see less political posters everywhere but that has not affected turnout: it was a record high during the last presidential election even if the spending limit was 18 million euros per candidate for a national campaign (around £12.5M).
10. Correct. Brown’s government is shaping up to be even more mendacious and manipulative than Blair’s - but without Blair’s voter appeal.
4. Or she could borrow Mike’s PMQs idea and give Princes Charles and William both a go to see who performs better.
12 - Oh boo-hoo. Is this really a subject worthy of a separate thread?
14. Boo hoo to you too. This is Mike’s site - if you don’t like it, push off.
“Why does Gord allow this sort of thing?”
It’s worse than that. He doesn’t merely “allow” it, he demands it.
This government spins a huge web of deceit and Brown is the big, fat, sinister looking spider at the centre of it all.
15 unneccessary
14 Redflump - yes because Gordon’s campaign so far has been about Gordon, about Gordon being the change, about a new broom sweeping away spin and all those messes the previous tenant left.
So further evidence that he’s short termist and though inept at it still tries to spin plays to the Gordon the public perceived of pre-July and post September. Its the clumsy meaning of the clunking fist rather than the big beast one.
More of this and further erosion of support - so it will change betting markets.
3,4 - After Prince Albert’s death, Queen Victoria rarely opened Parliament, the speech being read by the Lord Chancellor - even when she did occasionally go in person, as she did under Disraeli, she didn’t actually read the Speech. Had it not been for Lord Esher and Edward VII, the ceremony might have been abandonded in the C20. The present Queen has had the Speech read by the Lord Chancellor once or twice, I think - when she was pregnant with Princes Andrew and Edward.
13 - we’re still talking about the speech, yes?
Further to the comments about NR and who was responsible for blocking it being taken over…the truth starts to leak out…
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article2814136.ece
13 or she could just send a video of last years speech….3 million new houses, terror bill, NHS reorg zzzzzzzzz
This all sounds suspiciously familiar- from Michael Gove’s conference speech;
“Today we’re launching a campaign - Comprehensively Excellent - in which we identify some of the very best state schools in the country and identify the qualities which help make them a success.
As well as celebrating their success we’re going to campaign for the qualities which make them successful to be adopted more widely.”
21 - yes, wouldn’t it be great if for comic effect she introduced a few asides and ad libs of her own (”Didn’t one say this laaarst year?”). A sort of regal Julie Etchingham…
23 - There’s a story that Edward VII bet he could get away with saying “mumble-rumble-bumble” in the middle of a King’s Speech without anybody noticing. Apparently, he won.
Brown’s reputation for lies, spin, hypocrisy, cowardice, plain nastiness, bullying, squandering taxpayers money, double-announcements, treble-announcements, quadruple-announcements, and gross incompetence will come on in leaps and bounds today.
To be fair to Redflump etc even I cant help thinking this school story is just a cock up. Its just too hard to believe that Brown’s team could possible think how on earth they would get off with it. And why single out a school in Yeovil - no advantage for Labour. On the other hand who would have believed the non election fiasco!
Sorry, a bit tetchy today!
I’m amused that Viscount Linley is described as a, ‘Minor Royal’ how are these things judged. I do have a vested interest, as I’ve worked out I’m 24millionth in line for the throne, I’ve been, ‘doing the wave’ for the years: well you never know.
6
Riddell is still quite positive
http://tinyurl.com/2m36mz
29: …and wrong.
Not a surprise on either count, really. At least he’s consistent in being positive and wrong!
I wonder why he didn’t ponder on the other polls showing the Tories 5-8 points ahead of Labour?
30
Only time will tell whether he’s wrong, don’t go counting chickens.
Re 24, Tangent, “There’s a story that Edward VII bet he could get away with saying “mumble-rumble-bumble” in the middle of a King’s Speech without anybody noticing. Apparently, he won.”
On the subject of teh thread, I agree it is dumb. It won’t get that much attention with the public but makes enimies in the media and that will show over time, especially after the non election.
Dumb and dumber.
Morning all , a quick post from work , another week or so till back online at home .
I don’t know if anyone picked up that Populus did a poll for Daily Politics fieldwork 17th Oct which included a voting intention question . The detailed data on their website unfortunately does not give a number for those intending to vote for others but a reasonable deduction would have given a probable published voting intention of Lab 38 Con 36 LibDem 15 Others 11 .
There have been a number of examples like the one in the article. Probably it comes down to the arrogance that people in Govt get after being in power for so long.
Another example of misleading the press, was that the Mail ran the story that there would be no charges on bins and the Govt did not deny it, a week goes by and then the truth creeps out there yes charges are going to be allowed.
What it all points to is that at the heart of Govt there is no coherent and “joined up” operation to think through the consequences of what they are saying. Being arrogant their are no checks on their behaviour.
Brogan now states in his update that he did not look at the context of the latest poll. And seems to have run initially with the spin he was fed. Brogan will be more careful next time Labour’s spin merchants contact him because he will understandably not like being misled.
29
‘Riddell is still quite positive’
What do you expect from such an ardent New Labour supporter?
34 HF - you aren’t reading Brogan correctly. He’s reporting that “Brown Central say” so telling us that it’s not his message but directly how it’s being spun - so when you hear the same lines out of mouths of other commentators and BBC reporters you know that it’s spin. That isn’t reflecting Brogan’s view. His view is Brown still doesn’t comprehend the difficulty of “returning to the July script” and i fact that a different script may be necessary. The subject of this thread shows that - clumsy spin that doesn’t recognise Brown has lost media trust.
Brogan’s advice is that Cameron needs to take this on and answer the questions - that’ll beat Brown.
His last para appeared after I dropped him a comment and he responded with a mea culpa - shows his professionalism.
Compare the recent catalogue of clangers with the coronation tour earlier this year, when we were told that Cameron and the Tories were about to be devastated by the finest intellect that had ever inhabited Number 10. Here was a man who thought and schemed and planned to the tiniest detail.
But in truth, Gordon seems more like one of those classic crap monsters from a Fifties movie - The Mad Cyclops Blob From Outer Space That Time Forgot. Having come so far for so long to get here, it turns out to be just a great big wobbly brain - with no higher intention than to occupy our planet, skimming off whatever resources it requires just to survive. And after all that effort, coming so far for so long, it catches a common cold. And, having no capability to fight it, at the end it simply shrivels and withers before our very eyes.
Still, it was scary enough at the time….
Interesting article from Phillip Stephens in the FT, re the presnt political situation.
http://tinyurl.com/34wvfk
I’m sure he’ll be branded a Nu-Labour supporter by the ‘Blue Harpies’
38. He is - and always has been - one of the biggest New Labour hacks of all.
Er.. I always find this sort of thing “xx will say yy in a speech today” to be an awful sort of story. If I were a journalist I’d be embarrassed to run such a non-story. Simply wait until the speech has happened and then report what was said.
It’s part of the whole journalism by press release culture which is rampant at the moment. The journalists do it because it is cheaper.
Brown can easily claim that he decided to make some last minute alterations to the speech, and that he thinks it right to praise the schools anyway…
It’s interesting if the press are runnig with it (particularly given the Cameron does the same thing, but they choose to criticise Brown). This smells of a press “narrative” through which all subsequent events will be manipulated to fit. Not good news for Brown.
When you are accused of spin and no substance what is the thing you really, really shouldn’t do? Spin again.
39
Just F***ing knew it, if anyone dare say that licking Dave’s arse doesn’t cure you of cancer, the ‘Blue Harpies’ come screaming down off their perches.
[42] My dear old thing, just treat them with the contempt they deserve. Every time I engage with one of them, I feel soiled afterwards…
42 Coldstone Be careful, with posts like that you will have Nick Palmer telling us he will leave the site unless you are sent into exile.
44 Coldstone. Sorry, ignore that. I forgot you support Labour, so that is alright. Mind you if you were a ‘ranting Tory’ it would be a different matter.
Brown assumed that the voters who read the newspapers would read the articles and think well of him but they are unlikely to pay much attention to his speech so he can say something else in his speech to appeal to another set of people. Honesty is beside the point. He assumes that for every journalist of integrity there are ten more who will, like him, do whatever it takes to achieve their objectives. He is an old fashioned socialist. His ends justify any means. All evil people think that way. It helps them sleep at night.
Peter Riddell is definitely on the social democratic side of things: but that rarely affects his analyses, which are always cogent and sensible.
But I do agree with the comment that Brown has just shot himself in the foot with the local press, which is serious. They’re going to be considerably influential at election time, and any party should have a proper regional media strategy involving co-ordinated cultivation from the centre and from local candidates and MPs. It’ll now become harder for Brown to achieve this, because local media will be more sceptical, and this is another potential opening for Cameron to exploit.
But I do agree with the comment that Brown has just shot himself in the foot with the local press, which is serious. They’re going to be considerably influential at election time, and any party should have a proper regional media strategy involving co-ordinated cultivation from the centre and from local candidates and MPs. It’ll now become harder for Brown to achieve this, because local media will be more sceptical, and this is another potential opening for Cameron to exploit.
re 4. No minor royal can do it, only HM herself. If she can’t and IIRC the last time was when she was pregnant with Prince Edward then it has to be opened by royal commission under the great seal - much the same sort of affair as prorogation.
Radio 5 live led this morning with the Queen to open…
……. St Pancras station.
Parliment is a sideshow.
45
First of all, whatever my party preference, which is sort of leftish. Although after three terms, the present government, could do with a spell on the opposition benches, its coming to the end of its natural life, which is why I supported an early GE.
I do have a fondness, for what I would consider ‘fair comment’ I think both Riddell and Stephens gave very good asessments of where we are at the moment.
p.s.
I only do ‘rant’ when I’m discussing with Marcus.
On topic. It’s just a cock-up.
34. I agree with HF that at the heart of government there is no coherent and joined up operation to think through the consequences of what they are saying.
I think that this is a result of Brown’s sheer dominance of his government which is resulting in poor communication. He. Needs a Campbell like figure to get the detail right but I suspect he is unable to allow such a figure sufficient authority to be effective.
52 Colstone you might appear more as you believe you are if you dropped this ‘blue harpies’ insult. It comes out very often and perhaps shows your real alignment?
The beeb have your say page seems to be all for Gordon..
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&forumID=3786&edition=1&ttl=20071106102357&#paginator
Sadly I don’t agree with the dismissal of this story as just a cock-up. It might be the case but I still think this could become an important (if invisible) turning point.
If the press disbelieve - or even doubt - information they get from number 10 about upcoming speeches (or even more generally), it could gift the news agenda to Cameron’s tories.
I hope Gordon’s press team is learning quickly that working for the PM requires far defter skills than working for the Chancellor.
52 Looking at the BBC site I see the following:
“I’m fed-up with being a mushroom like the rest of Great Britain
I want to see daylight and a new diet”
The Son of the Grumpy Old Man, Cymru Am Byth…Cadw Cymru Dacluso
So ex GOM is there something you are trying to hide from us? are you trying to shirk your parental responsibility?
54
When they stop behaving like, ‘Blue Harpies’ I’ll stop calling them ‘Blue Harpies’
I’ve never complained once, about seant’s attacks on’ lefties’ never felt insulted by it, always accepted it as part and parcel of political banter.
I never come on here and defend the present government’s policies, (or its lack of them) In fact I was probably the most critical of GB’s decision not to have a GE in Oct/Nov. Still think it was a massive error, in fact I’m surprised the repercussions haven’t been worse for Labour.
55 the best quote from the BBC site is
“Gordon Brown has the political finesse of a badger in a cake shop.”
oh dear!
I can understand why there is such Tory disappointment and anger at this latest poll. A quick flick through some of the threads I’ve missed shows a quite unrealistic view of the Tories appeal. I’ve only had time for a sideways glance at UK politics recently but I didn’t see any reason for the wild optimism of recent threads
Brown doesn’t look great to me but I suspect to most people he looks OK. Cameron still looks like a lightweight as the details of the poll confirm and not too many people believe he’s got what it takes to be a leader.
So a tip from a well meaning neutral. Brown; cut all gimmicks. Just get on with being PM and on that you’ll be judged. Cameron; lose the anger and start trying to look like a Party leader not a yappy Yorkshire Terrier. It makes you look weak
60 - not only an unrealistic view of their appeal but also a failure to comprehend quite how many votes they need to win a majority.
This sort of thing was absolutely par for the course for Brown when he was Chancellor. When I was political editor of the Newcastle Journal I lost count of the number of times I was told that an important announcement for the North-East would be made in the PBR or the CSR, and then find there was no speficic mention of it made at all, and that the actual announcement in question was buried in an accompanying departmental press release with no supporting quote from the great man. It is so clumsy and counter-productive it scarcely merits the description “spin.”
#20 (Off Topic) So LLoyds had asked for £30Bn to meet NRKs short/medium term funding requirements. Presumeably in a secret deal, NRK wouldn’t have haemorrhaged investor deposits to the tune of £14Bn, which kinda implies the BoE may well have to find £44Bn to keep things going.
The problem is based on NRKs 2006 figures they had £30Bn unsecuritised on their Mortgage Book i.e. the BoE can only get security upto £30Bn of whatever they loan.
If we take the reported £23Bn lent to NRK and the guarantee on the £10Bn of remaining deposits the taxpayer is probably already unsecured to the tune of £3Bn+.
It’s a train crash.
58: Harpies, of any colour, are a benefit to this country, you mythical creaturist.
57
Oh God! It does sound like me, but not guilty.
Even though I do have Welsh connections, (Mother) Like most people from the South, she couldn’t speak Welsh, father from Bristol anyway. Lived there as a child then moved to the West country, father Devonian.
O/T Dizzy on ” Ron Paul raises $4million online in just one day”
Anyway Labour supporters shouldn’t be too gloomy about the govt’s press operation. The Daily Telegraph has a good Queens Speech story here
http://tinyurl.com/39m88n
and the emphasis is just where it needs to be - on housing.
This is just plain ametuerish stuff. Why phone reporters to tip them off and expect them to keep quiet when they’re deceived.
The other interesting thing is that this story is another bit of work by David Laws and the Lib Dems. It’s been very interesting over the past few weeks to see how David Laws has been making the running on education issues. He seems far more active and a better operator than the Tories’ person — whose name I can’t even remember.
Laws made all the running on the abortive levy on school budgets, getting first the Times and then two weeks later the Telegraph to do the same story. It was only then that Cameron went with it at PMQs.
In the light of Laws’s recent polished performances on TV and radio whether some Lib Dems are wondering whether they are going to elect the wrong man again. I had thought Clegg was the man, but, given what I’ve heard duirng the election campaign, and the way Laws has worked recently, I’m changing mind.
63. …and remember that there is no guarantee that those mortgage assets notionally worth £30bn can actually be disposed of for that sum - a substantial haircut would be likely. So the taxpayer’s ultimate liability is likely to be higher still.
Still it’s a small price to pay to keep people in their jobs in Labour-held seats until after a snap election…oh dear…
69
‘Still it’s a small price to pay to keep people in their jobs in Labour-held seats until after a snap election…oh dear…’
Like Brown’s constitutional (the BBC’s word) change in coming up with a Draft Queens Speech; he came up with this gimmick for no reason other than he was planning on a snap election November 1st.
What this lot will do to stay in power eh!
For those of you wondering what a “blue harpy” looks like, wonder no longer:
http://www.tinkersbackpack.com/wowpics/harpy2.jpg
70. Yes - it’s pathetic, isn’t it? And to think this lot used to bang on about how Britain was suffering due to a ’short termist’ culture in the City and elsewhere…
BBC reporting on UK ‘faces more financial shocks’
68 It may just be my imagination, Cheltboy, but I get the impression that the media are giving more coverage to Lib Dem policy initiatives and general “opposition” work these days; I would have thought that it would have been excluded in view of the Leadership Election coverage.
67 See that article is another Andrew Porter production - while he’s not quite Kevin Maguire, there is a definite Brownian tilt to everything he writes. Still good to see what the Brown spin will be.
Guido gets it right on “Total Politics, Totally Disconnected”
It always amazes me that all the discussion on here about future prospects for the political parties in Britain ignores the likelihood of a major economic slowdown next year. I raise this on here, I have done many times, but it gets ignored. So… one last try.
Please read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/11/06/ccciti106.xml
and listen to this:
http://tinyurl.com/2pbfxk
In summary, the USA is heading rapidly into recession, Europe (so far only) into manufacturing recession, Japan is already in recession, the property bubbles everywhere are bursting or about to and the BRIC economies are simply not big enough to take up the slack. Ergo, the UK will be in recession next year. QED.
77. The thing is that us blue harpies have been saying this for years - not sure I’ll even believe it until it happens
71 - Right! That goes in the next manifesto (pity I’m not ‘up’ until 2010
).
Hi all,
Does anyone have the Thrasher and Rallings prediction for the new Consistuency of Mid Derbyshire?
Thanks in advance.
80. I don’t, but I do live there and I can tell you it will be a safe win for Pauline Latham. (Con).
77 Stephen - quite agree but there has been a bit of Peter and the Wolf about UK’s economic prospects. So crying wolf again, even when you can smell it and see the signs a wolf is about, is ignored. Doesn’t mean that this time the wolf won’t strike just that the opposition must have a plan A & B and wait until the signs are more obvious.
Doesn’t help that we have a cardboard Chancellor, who has lost confidence of the City.
Updated vote shares and seats projection based on the Populus poll.
http://thepoliticaltipster.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/filtered-polling-data-lab-majority-30/
77
The standard definition of recession is usually 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth. Now growth is safely over 2% at the moment and I don’t think many people are expecting it to immediately plummet. A shift to below-trend growth (which would have a big impact on the Chancellor’s spending plans) is probable but I really don’t think that the timescales back up your assertion that we’ll be in recession next year.
Now it’s a possibility the year after but current uncertainties mean that only a braver man than me would make such an assertion.
75. Thanks, that’s interesting information.
Brown’s emphasis on housing is interesting because it marks a break from the Blair era - people like ed miliband admit that Labour never really got to grips with this issue in the first 10 years. The policy is about long-term strategy, definitely not tactical advantage. Nevertheless I cannot help speculating what the conservative response will be.
Tory housing policy is, as far as I can see:
a) in general - don’t build any more bloody houses
b) in particular - don’t build any bloody houses near me.
c) anyone in rented or social housing has something the matter with them and all rental housing should be discouraged.
Or is there more to it than this?
77. Well if a global recession is on the way, then presumably every incumbent government in the world is in trouble?
85
what ARE you talking about?
Watching Her Majesty. Laugh a minute. Waiting for Kenneth Williams type interjection “Who writes this rubbish?”.
71
Hmmm thats a ‘Blue Harpie’ might join ‘em myself.
On the economy simple.
Growth won’t go on up for ever, there’ll be a downturn sometime.
House prices, won’t go up for ever, there’ll be a downturn sometime.
Buying versus renting, the economy will never be so encompassing, that everyone will be able to buy.
Buying, yes its a bloody good investment, but it don’t ‘alf sap you financially, and ties you down.
Renting, providing you have security of tenure, and a good landlord, private or housing trust. Perhaps there should be tax breaks attached to encourage?
When the economy turns down and the housing market follows suite, will this advantage the Tories? maybe, then again, maybe not!
Clegg batters Gove on the telly.
BTW Blue Harpies are cousins of the Blue Meanies.
http://www.beatles.com/hub/article.php?page=yeloSub&menuItem=the%20films
85 Cameron was here first - that’s where Brown got the idea from
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2006/03/is_david_camero.html
HRH: “My government will take forward policies to respond to the rising aspirations of the people of the United Kingdom”
“Aspirations”. Hm, didn’t we hear George Osborne saying this in Blackpool a few short weeks ago?
Has Magpie Gordon got no shame? (rhetorical question, we all know the answer’s “no”…)
90 - applying “the Roger principle” to Jonathan’s comment, I take it that Gove absolutely took Posh Boy Cleggy to pieces then?
90. How sad is it when Labour partisans have to resort to talking up the performance of Lib Dems due to the embarassing ineptitude of their own spokespeople?
” 80. I don’t, but I do live there and I can tell you it will be a safe win for Pauline Latham. (Con). ”
Quite right, but I still need the Thrasher and Rallings figures… or somewhere I can access them.
All I have at the moment is that they have a Conservative majority at 12.54%
I need the Labour / Lib Dem numbers as well.
92
I always think that everytime a politician, trade unionist, etc, uses the word aspiration! they should be forced to make a donation to the NSPCC.
93 - I think Jonathan’s just honing his debating skills, like wot he used to do here.
93.
Lol. The idea of Gove taking even a bar of chocolate to pieces is too amusing for words.
97.
:) 
92-”Hm, didn’t we hear George Osborne saying this in Blackpool a few short weeks ago?”
I don’t think so…=) and:
http://www.georgeosborne.co.uk/shadow_news.php?id=35
94 Tuned in late and saw Clegg launch what I thought was a really successful attack on Gove. Thought it was interesting to others on pb.com in the light of the current LD leadership election. He has potential IMO.
Oh well, I guess people are more interested in me for some reason! Really flattered guys, but you’re bizarre.
Wow, is this site being infiltrated by posters from Guido’s, or are the Creatures of the Night ™ just out in the daytime now? Who the hell are the likes of voxpop, sp, henri - and do they ever post anything of interest to anyone?
68 – ‘why phone reporters to tip them off on things?’ Because it works. The example I found most interesting being Cameron’s ‘briefing’ than Fox was a left-footer during the ’05 leadership election. And then making it seem like it came from Davis’ camp. Brilliant stuff – and seemed to do the job, too!
For anyone watching the Queen’s speech (HRH, not Fox), how did the Straw/Lord Chancellor role pan out? Was he allowed to maintain the standard procedure for a Lord Chancellor or, being a HoC chap, did he find himself ‘demoted’ in precedence…?
102 No, they are just a sort of deranged chorus designed to make you use your page down button.
100 - thanks for the link. I just counted 8 uses of the word “aspiration” in Osborne’s speech.
O/T - Edwards now seems to be alternating between attacks on Clinton (his old themes of “Washington insider” and adopting multiple positions on the same issues) and highlighting his, frankly impressive, policy portfolio, which is far more advanced than his rivals’.
He might come unstuck because the early states don’t like negative campaigning but I can’t help but feel that he’s creating an opportunity for someone by highlighting Hillary’s weaknesses. I’m not convinced she’s going to fare very well early in January.
105-Me too…I can’t stand hearing this word again, and I’m sure Brown will use in today’s “debate”…
71 89
Housing demands are driven by population growth , more singles looking for housing and more singl parent families.
The first - more immigration - can be solved (as the Italians have shown by booting out Romanians) basicaly at a stroke, EC nationals or not.
The second is economic independence.
The third is Government funded largely - but not entirely - through the benefit system.
I would point out that 3 million more homes in 10 years have all to be heated. So BANG goes any chance of meeting any Climate Change Initiatives. (If they are all carbon neutral, at present economics they are unaffordable)
I would also point out they will need major developments in transport infrastructure which if they are rail and road must be planned NOW (due to the Planning System and delays). Not a asnowballs chance. So more cars on the road. BANG goes any hope of meeting Climate Change Initiatives.(About 3 Million more cars or 15% more than current).
And of course we’ll need more power stations which take 10 years to build … No planning permissions yet or even started. Oh and our existing nuclear ones start decomissioning in mid 2010 -2020.
Meanwhile world oil demand is increasing faster than supply .. about 1% pa.more.. so oil prices will not stop at $100 per barrel. Where is the next HUGE oilfield? There ain’t one.
My conclusion? Ignoring the inevitable economic slowdowns the above says the chosen course is in the long run - deadlock . Not achievable. The road to roads gridlock, power outages etc.
Buy oil shares They discount $80 per barrel. GB plans will help $150 .. and global warming and the flooding of SE ENgland by 2080.
106 O/T Interesting stuff. Does anyone know if there have been any mutterings about possible VP combinations yet. Is a Clinton-Obamna (dream) ticket out of the question? I guess Edwards doesn’t want the VP job again.
91. Labour’s had a green paper and a major consultation. Cam may have expressed an aspiration to change housing but it was on a par with his “hello clouds hello sky” statements about the environment i.e. nice words but little substance. Anyway I look forward to hearing his support for the govt on this when he responds to the QS. I must go out soon so unfortunately I won’t hear it.
103-”For anyone watching the Queen’s speech (HRH, not Fox), how did the Straw/Lord Chancellor role pan out?”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/330021/is-the-monarchy-safe-for-good-now.thtml
“Anyway I look forward to hearing his support for the govt on this when he responds to the QS. I must go out soon so unfortunately I won’t hear it.”
What time does DC put Gordo to the sword in the QS debate? Nothing being streamed on BBC website right now so assume this is later?
Perhaps in the next Queen’s speech, we’ll hear the following’ Due to a campaign on political betting, My Government will make the use of the word, Aspiration a criminal offence’
re 95 why won’t the Wells or Baxter figures do?
111 - thanks!
113-Let’s hope so!
Just received an email digest of the main provisions announced. Includes:
“Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill: Allows the government to use money held in bank and building society accounts”
Now I’m not necessarily opposed to this, but I just love the euphemism “allows the govt to use“.
“Appropriate” perhaps, “steal” arguably. But “use”?!
Brownism at its best. Or worst, i suppose…!
I also note that my email digest helpfully summarises whether each bill “applies to the UK”, “applies to England”, “applies to England & Wales”, “applies to England & Wales with some provisions extending to Scotland”, and so on.
I thought a major objection to the EVFEL proposal was that these distinctions were impossible to make?
Hm…
93. Hi Bob! Interesting you should mention Michael Gove. I was a fan of his after seeing him as a reviewer on various arts programmes and when he first got elected I thought he was a good bet for a future leader but as time has past he’s become really hopeless. I know this just sounds like the dribbling of a non Tory but what do you make of him?
117.“Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill: Allows the government to use money held in bank and building society accounts”
How do you class an account as dormant?
120 - Does this idea not amount to little more than a one-off plundering of banks and building societies? ‘Dormant’ makes it sound as if the money is sat in a vault untouched, but surely in reality it is simply part of the banks’ everyday working capital? This measure will simply exacerbate the cashflow problems that banks are currently going through.
119: Rogers with leaders like Brown shouldn’t throw insults.
117: Will they at least try and contact the owner before borrowing the money?
119.Your judgement appears to have been as poor on this subject as on most others. What are your latest share tips, btw?
“Other bills announced include a Health and Social Care Bill which introduces a single regulator for the health and adult care services who will also have the power to fine hospitals for failing to meet hygiene standards.”
Oh, Great! I look forward to receiving a letter from my local NHS Death-House, err…”Hospital”:
“Dear Mr Disraeli,
your operation has been cancelled. We can’t afford to do it anymore because we have just paid a fine for failing to meet hygiene standards.
Yours sincerely,
Jobsworth”
120. 15 years without contact, I believe
119 - I must confess I never shared your enthusiasm for a Gove-led Tory Party, then or now. Funny that…
I don’t think he’s hopeless - particularly when measured against the shower of sh!te that sits on the Govt front bench currently - but I agree he’s overrated and a bit irritating. I remember when he first appeared in the late 80s on some late night youth programme on Channel 4 - you obviously wouldn’t have been watching, Rog - as a rightwing antidote to the PC leftie brigade one usually encountered. I disliked him then and thought he put the Tory cause back 20 years (i recall him sticking up for the poll tax which was causing misery across his homeland at that time). He’s mellowed since then, but I’m still not sure of his potential.
Anyway, good to hear from you Roger. It’s a shame you only appear now on those rare occasions when Labour nose ahead in some rogue poll. You should venture out more often. We’ll be gentle with you…
O/T. Does anyone know whether there are any useful pointers in today’s American elections as to the more significant races next year? There are general elections in two states - Kentucky and Mississippi.
15 years?! That’s hardly anything! There must be thousands of people with accounts that haven’t been touched for 15 years - are they really going to lose their money?
129 - to be fair Gordon doesn’t usually wait 15 years before trousering a decent chunk of my hard-earned cash to p!ss up the wall on his various projects…
“But planned legislation on party funding has been put on hold following the breakdown of cross party talks. New proposals will be brought forward “in due course,” the government said.”
In other words, the Government has been reading PB.com, and been swayed by the compelling arguments of Ave It 07!
127 - “A Stab in the Dark” was the Gove programme I recalled. The joys of Wikipedia…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_In_The_Dark
It was 1992, more recent than I thought.
131. Another Brown surrender!
re 117 well they’ve already got your house so they might as well steal your money from you as well. This is an appalling bill.
The way the presumably similar dormant accounts scheme works in Ireland is that the money is used for good causes but if someone makes a valid claim they get a full refund.
Financial institutions are in any case expected to try to contact the owner of dormant accounts. I was recently contacted by a company in which my late mum, unbeknownst to me, had some shares, now worth a couple of thousand quid (ha, no need to worry about Ashcroft any more, eh?). The difference under the proposals would be that, where the efforts to contact the owner fail, the money will not simply be used to earn revenue by the bank, as happens now.
126.Thanks David. That is quite shocking, some people leave savings in various building societies for years without touching it, 15 years is not long enough. I do not agree with any government doing this sort of thing at any time, but for Labour to attempt something like this just now with confidence in Banking very low, it just seems plain stupid.
Are things so bad that they are in effect trying to rummage down the back of the UK sofa desperately looking for loose change? What possible right do they have to this money?
Nick at 135, you are showing signs of an unhealthy obsession with my good mate Michael Ashcroft.
Should he be worried?
135.”The difference under the proposals would be that, where the efforts to contact the owner fail, the money will not simply be used to earn revenue by the bank, as happens now.”
Just remind me what happened when Brown decided to take that spare cash lying around in pension schemes? Just the kind of Labour policy that will boost the confidence of savers and Bankers, not!
135 - “The way the presumably similar dormant accounts scheme works in Ireland is that the money is used for good causes”
So is this going to be the case here, or will the money just be swallowed up into the over-inflated government spending account?
“the money will not simply be used to earn revenue by the bank, as happens now.”
…so the banks will just accept a drop in revenue? Or will they pass it on to their customers in the form of less favourable interest rates?
This whole measure is nothing but a stealth tax on anyone who owns a bank account.
108 - On the vexing subject of future energy needs, these paragraphs from the Press and Journal make interesting reading on how biofuels aren’t exactly coming to the rescue:
“ScottishPower is cleaning up its Cockenzie and Longannet fossil-fuel power stations and switching them to burn both coal and the output of [biofuel] energy crops. This could gobble up to 12% of Scotland’s agricultural land. SP wants farmers to produce 250,000 tonnes of such crops to provide 5% of the fuel for the two power stations by 2013. According to the company, the scheme will have a minimal effect on land used for food crops. But what would happen if SP decided to double its requirement to 500,000 tonnes? That would swallow 20% of agricultural land north of the border. Imagine the impact on Britain if other UK coal-fired plant is similarly converted.”
92, 100 - Of course, no one in the political world used the word “aspiration” before Georgy Osborne last month! I hear that the Tory party has legally registered the word and that anyone using it will be fined.
Per-lease!!!
141 - well historically, the Tories certainly have a moral claim on the word if not a legal one. Labour, traditionally, has neither.
141-lol-”no one in the political world used the word “aspiration” before Georgy Osborne last month!”
I hope no one uses again, because, as said before, I can’t stand hearing this…=)
Michael Gove is a political heavyweight compared to Ed Balls. This Government really is a shower.
142. Unfair - Labour has been very good at meeting the aspirations of its donors to noble status.
141.I think that prudence has a right to feel a bit aggrieved, she seems to have been type cast and can no longer get a mention.
Well I think Mike summed it up right: dumb, dumb, dumb. Or at the very least clumsy. It’s strange, because we’re always told Brown is like a chess player thinking 4 or 5 move ahead and yet he continually does things which look good for about 5 minutes (think the budget, Darling’s ‘giveaway’ report and now this). Instinctively I feel Brown is prone to panicking and then makes rash decisions. Neither does he seem able to see the long-term consequences of his ‘cleverness’. Stealth taxes don’t stay invisible for ever and you can only reinvent the economic cycle so many times.
On Clegg, I’ve not been too convinced by him so far but he amade a good point on the TV discussion about Brown’s support for the Son of Star Wars and how we need good relations with Putin.
New thread - “Has Gord pulled back on stopping the Ashcroft cash?
143: That word was apparently the theme of the Queen’s Reheat. Hasn’t the Clunking One realised repeating words over and over again just gives material for pundits to make fun of him?
139: you actually think it’s a good thing that banks make a profit on dormant bank accounts, because you surmise that they will then be more generous with other customers? It’s an endearing but not realistic thought. Banks set interest rates according to what they think the market will bear, not out of a sense of fairness because they’ve found some money lying around so they decide they don’t need yours.
149-Brown uses a lot, but Osborne uses too, they used 8 times in their conference speech…
80 - apologies if anyone has already got there
Derbyshire Mid
C 20050 47.17
L 14721 34.64
LD 6809 16.02
UKIP 923 2.17
150 - Well of course they set their rates according to the market, but this proposal will hit the entire market more or less equally. The point is that an increased tax on the entire industry (which is what this amounts to) will ultimately be paid for by customers. Maybe you think they’ll just shrug their shoulders and pay Gordon what he’s demanding. An endearing but not realistic thought.
This would have been a cock-up, not a conspiracy. Speeches and press releases are the work of many hands.
Team Gordon knows the next election will be close, but they don’t need to get one good story out of 5 local papers 2 years before the poll! It was probably a cock-up, and whoever over-promised in the press office will be having their arses kicked today. but that’s all, call off the conspiracy hounds.
One week to go before the Danish elections - ruling liberal coalition has v slim lead over social democrats
150 The State doesn’t own me or my possessions. If I choose to leave money in a bank account the money doesn’t suddenly belong to the State because I haven’t touched it for a while. It’s a typical socialist approach and is therefore supported by the Lib Dems. I find the tory support for this proposal baffling.
To be required to request your own possessions back is in line with the property theft legislation we now have. It’s based on the premise that the State grants me certain rights and freedoms as it sees fit. This is a reversal of individual liberty in which we surrender a certain amount of our freedom for the good ordering of society.
It is the reason socialism is inherently authoritarian and repressive, however much of a cheery gloss is painted on it by the Labour party. From neo-nationalist BJFBW rubbish to compelling 16 year olds to take part in pretendy training the obsession with State control grows by the day.