The commons spread markets move to the Tories
November 20th, 2007
Is this Labour’s biggest crisis in a decade?
After what the Mole in The First Post is describing as Labour’s worst crisis in a decade of power there’s been movement on the commons seat spread markets so that for the first time since June Brown’s party is behind.
In this form of betting you buy and sell the number of seats that the parties will get at the next election as though they were stocks and shares. Much of the activity is short-term with punters trying to forecast how other punters will see things, say, after the next set of polls come out. This evening’s spreads are:-
Spreadfair: CON 285-289.7: LAB 275-281: LD 48.5-51.5 seats
Sporting Index: CON 282-288: LAB 280-286: LD 46-49 seats
IG Index: CON 280-286: LAB 280-286: LD 48-51 seats
The next big events that might move the markets are the end of month opinion surveys from ComRes, Ipsos-Mori, ICM and YouGov. If these show a worsening in Labour’s position then we are likely to see to more movement away from the party.
Mike Smithson
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The Prime Minister’s Spokesman (PMS) began the briefing with a brief readout from this morning’s Cabinet meeting. There was a discussion on skills and welfare led by Peter Hain and John Denham, in the general context of the long term challenges that need to be met in order to face the future needs of the country and to meet people’s rising aspirations.
Asked if Northern Rock was discussed at Cabinet, the PMS replied that it was not.
Asked if the Counter Terrorism Bill was raised at Cabinet, the PMS replied that again, this was not discussed.
Asked if anything else was discussed, the PMS replied that there was a further discussion on public health protection.
Asked if “British jobs for British workers” was brought up during the discussion on skills, the PMS replied that this issue was not discussed specifically.
In other words, this pantomime was not even discussed in cabinet
Who can blame people for moving to the Tories? This crisi will almost certainly see Labour dipping into the low 30’s and the Tories remaining low to mid 40’s. It won’t decide the election of course, but Labour have had an appalling month, and that is rapidly becoming an appalling two months. Much longer and all of this will do permanant damage to Labour’s reputation.
2 - “Who can blame people for moving to the Tories?”
Me for starters.
3 - Tories looking good for the 100 overall maj
4 - you probably have them down for 100% lead in the polls too! Tories to gain Pyongyang?
3: Governments lose elections, oppositions don’t win them. At every election a sizeable number of people vote AGAINST the government almost irrespective of the policies of the party they are voting for. In that respect, people will move to the tories inevitably - and given the current succession of pitiful fiascos I am afraid you really CANNOT blame them, anyone must be better than this shower.
5 - I believe I called the 120% lead on the last thread!
Just nipping out with my fiver to buy a pint and a bank LOL
The next big events that might move the markets are the end of month opinion surveys from ComRes, Ipsos-Mori, ICM and YouGov.
I wouldn’t bet on that if I were you Mike!
I think this will do more harm to Labour than anything else since Brown took over.
It involves th security of everybody’s family and the fear that at anytime someone could be silently stealing their money.
If the discs are not found, this sense of unease will be open-ended.
So what is the upshot for ID cards? Might Murdoch do a Tory style U-turn on them and admit the LDs (except Mark Oaten!) were right all along?
9 - even if the discs are found, I think one would have to assume they had by now been copied. Not so easy to get this particular genie back in the lamp.
10 - much easier to admit to being wrong because of the failings of others than admit you were wrong on a point of principle, I should imagine.
11: This will run and run a bit like Northern Rock shares.
10. I’m not a big fan of ID cards but what information would the government require that they haven’t already got (and liberated to the rest of the world!)
Oil up $3 to $98.
This will be felt at the pumps and add to inflation.. largely due I suspect to the fall in the $.
A perfect storm brewing.
1 Barry “In other words, this pantomime was not even discussed in cabinet”
For good reason. A Pantomime actually has a plot, and this Government has lost the plot.
My guess is that Labour will dream up a major security alert this weekend, to remind us how tough and wonderful they are. It’s happened before at moments of crisis.
“Brown is accused of yelling at Bob Shrum, his American adviser”
What happened between them?
16 - “A Pantomime actually has a plot” - Oh no it hasn’t!
Even if they were found, it may not be possible to be sure that multiple copies of the two CDs concerned do not exist.
The one truly staggering apsect about all this is not that the CDs became “lost” in the internal post, serious though that is, but rather that one “junior official” apparently had unfettered individual access to access and copy the personal and sensitive records of 25 million citizens. Perhaps a few dozen other “junior officials” had similar access - who knows?
For this monstrous shortcoming, wholesale sackings from top to bottom should follow.
But will this happen - don’t make me laugh. Nobody, but nobody ever gets fired in the public sector.
Losing the discs is not the issue - Having a system that allowed a “junior” member of staff to burn a disc with all the data on it is the issue. Having a system that allowed all the data and the names to be on one file rather than on separate files that could interlink to provide information, is the issue.
The Management and the Treasury who control them are the problem - Ministerial resignations are essential if only pour encourage les autres.
Strangely , I found a CD that I had lost months ago when I moved flat at the end of last month . It had somehow slid underneath a wardrobe and I still can’t think how it was physically possible for it to do that without help from the elves .
20 - “Nobody, but nobody ever gets fired in the public sector.”
Time and time again I find myself saying that this or that would have resulted in a sacking in the private sector.
Do you think we might hear a little less serial rubbishing of the Information Commissioner in the future?
A charming man on Channel 4 News made the point-and I quote ‘It’s no use giving the task to an oily oik way down the foodchain because their bosses don’t understand computers…..”
On a scale of zero to Led Zeppelin performing again this rates a two. Some ‘oily oik’ wants to get home on Friday so he misunderstands an instruction. Big deal! Even Georgeous George didn’t think Darling should resign. Infact the only person who did is the uninspiring Lib Chris Huhne.
19 Oh, yes it has!
Does anyone know why the CDs were made and why they were to be sent in the post?
If there is no reasonable explanation, can we take it that a criminal act took place?
21/22/23 - its LD night on pb.com!
22- Maybe the police should question the elves about the discs
Off topic - but might generate some debate -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7104552.stm
The great thing about this news is that it will permenantly scupper public support for ID cards.
Noone is going to trust the government with their personal information after this.
28 - yes, we do still exist.
23 - well that’s not true. What happens a lot less are “symbolic” sackings, for the simple reason that it rarely serves a purpose and costs public money in severance etc.
In the private sector a high level sacking is often necessary for restoring investor confidence etc - ie. it is actually necessary to save money.
32 - thought I’d banned you!
LOL just a little joke.
It’s ‘be nice to LDs’ week!
They weren’t sent in “The Post” they were carried by TNT a private operator of an internal service will TNT be penalised for their incompetence.
27 - because the National Audit office wanted it.
well, Labour are suffering enough and I don’t believe in putting the boot in, so how about turning to the LD leadership? Huhne made running today on this, where was Clegg? One for Mike Smithson.
33 But high level sackings in the private sector usually come with multi million pound payoffs and pensions to those ” sacked ” .
37: I agree, we Tories focus on issues not rabble rousing.
Havent heard too much from Clegg today - but havent been looking either
PfP @ 20
Agreed.
It’s really quite simple. The “office juniors” who knowingly touched this data should go. More importantly, managers who allowed their staff to touch this data should go. IT staff who failed to implement basic security measures should go. IT management who failed to ensure that those procedures had been planned, implemented, tested, and audited should go.
And if those at director level don’t rectify the management failures that allowed this sort of access to data to happen - well, then they should go, too (and possibly face criminal charges).
That’s what would happen in the private sector. I’ve no experience of the public sector, but if, as you say, it doesn’t happen there, then this sort of behaviour will continue. More accidents will happen.
37, 39 - Surely one calamity is enough for today?
38 - And your point is? Such payouts are a pittance compared with the losses from losing investor confidence, whether you agree with them or not.
23 - but senior execs don’t get sacked for poor performance in the large corporates in the private sector, this is wrong.
It’s more the case of a golden goodbye, followed by a golden hello as they walk into the next job unhindered by previous failure.
Of course, private contractors have performed wonderfully well on big govt IT contracts haven’t they.
25
That “charming man” on C 4 news is as woefully ignorant as you appear to be about security.
In my prior employment, to be able to access and copy payroll information and put it on CD would require the FD’s written authorisation, a written pass into the computer with a CD writr, a written permission to copy the information to CD, Written instructions to IT to allow it, and written instructions to let it out of the building.. let alone post it.
Of course it was only 15 million confidential records so some “oik” could do it. On a Friday in a hurry.
I understand they (HMCE) have no data encryption on CDs…so Channel 4 may be right.
Well if they are, a LOT of people need to be fired.. starting at the top and working down…
“Brown is accused of yelling at Bob Shrum, his American adviser”
Isn’t he the speech writer who came out with the line about ‘axis of evil’? If so I’ve heard him on radio and he’s somewhere to the right of Michael Howard. What’s Brown getting advice on? Maybe that’s where ” British jobs for……….” came from.
38 - not true at a junior level. For gross negligence people are just usually frogmarched from the office and they get nothing. Seen it done.
We are told the data hasnt fallen in the wrong hands.
So Labour is saying it must have fallen into the right hands.
The safety, security and privacy of the British people has not been safe in Labour’s hands for a long time.
Now, even Labour voters can see the truth.
45 - No.
42 The point is that sacking should be a punishment for incompetence and not rewarded with a massive payout .
30. “..but might generate some debate”
Why?
The man has passed away. That’s it.
Like on discussions with Enoch Powell, all a “debate” will generate is a “bidding-up” war with people trying to prove they’re more anti-racist than the previous Johnny.
Can’t be ar$ed.
Its not the IT departments fault -they would only do what they were asked to do. The senior management in Customs and Revenue are responsible, but also ministers should set standards for the these agencies and check that they are implemented - If Ministers are not responsible, why bother to have Ministers?
51 - Policy/process.
Well things really are serious for Labour. This story registered with Mrs Wood big style and she linked it with NR unprompted, - she said to me ‘it must be Black Tuesday for Gordon’.
Now the missus is about as interested in politics as I am in the curtains - she is my infallible bellwether for what the man/woman in the street is *really* interested in; when she takes notice of something political you can be sure nearly everyone has noticed it.
On that showing alone I think Labour will test the 30% barrier before Christmas.
45 - Almost. David Frum who I think has since become a bit of a leftie
I feel junior officials and managers should pay the price if this was a one-off against procedure. And if it was with procedure then then the internal audit team should be disembowled publicly.
53 - Yes. And I’m now seriously worried about the fate of the Broxtowe Kitties Home…ICM at below 35% wasn’t it?
36.”27 - because the National Audit office wanted it.”
They apparently only wanted one specific piece of information, but instead they got the data equivalent of the crown jewels downloaded onto a couple of discs and chucked into the internal post.
43 under Labour, yes they have!
55 Is hara kiri legal in this country ?
Ministers set the policy framework within which their departments operate. Ministers are responsible for failures of policy. Departmental heads (often paid more than Ministers) for failures of process.
The grey area in when Ministerial policy directly causes problems for the smooth running of departments and process. Think Tax Credits, home office etc.
So centralised has much of policy setting become these days, however, that many Junior Ministers don’t really need to exist, under this framework.
Marcus whilst your wife’s judgement is of course suspect, I think on this occasion I think she is right. What I am not sure, yet is that your party can persuade us that you would do better. All politicians/Governments may well be blamed rather than Labour - lower turnout beckons. And as one who tries to make a living from curtains I think you should pay more attention to them
45-It doesn’t really matter where “British jobs for british people” came from, Brown was the one who said, this can only means that he agrees!I really want to know what happened between Shrum and Brown…
60 (con) - i should add the rather important point that Ministers are also responsible for any decisions that they take, regardless of how strongly they were advised by their officials to take such a decision, such decisions are not necessarily policy related.
21 “The Management and the Treasury who control them are the problem - Ministerial resignations are essential if only pour encourage les autres.”
certainly not a line that cameron and osborne will be able to push. Didn’t cameron say in a key note speech that govts should not micro manage public agencies and to do is “going way beyond the boundaries of their proper responsibility.”
Perhaps we should pay more attention to those who have made a fortune in the wallpaper business.
62 - I think Shrum said he bottled the election.
53. Of course this is incredibly serious for Labour. Labour supporters who don’t think this is a catastrophe are in denial. It pushes ALL the buttons;
The safety and security of children and families.
Peoples financial security.
Government incompetence.
The media going at the government big time.
This WILL do damage to Labour’s poll ratings and Gordon Browns already free-falling credability.
61. I agree the curtain thing is a weakness, Mrs Wood complains constantly that I just don’t take them seriously enough; I should stop ‘wasting my time’ with all this pointless politics and concentrate on what really matters in life, swag and tails
For the past 10 years, Labour has been employing unsuitable people in sensitive jobs and positions of responsibility.
Education ministers that had never passed an exam. White hetrosexual men barred from the police force. Illegal immigrants as government security oficers. I dont even want to comment on some people checking passports at ports of entry and working at the Passport office.
I want to know about all the players involved in the Child Data Scandal.
I dont say this often. There must be a public enquiry.
66-Ouch!
64 - Well he’s right. The day to day running of departments should be left to those who have the experience and expertise built up over years of climbing the promotion ladder. Not to some Minister who just managed to convince the public to vote for him. Things will still go wrong because many people are overpromoted. But it’s pointless if the Minister is responsible for every mistake, even systemic ones (since rarely is a Minister in post long enough to be responsible for systemic errors when they are exposed. Even Gordon Brown got out of the Treasury just in the nick of time!
They should however make it a point of being aware of what goes on within their departments.
71(con) which is why ignorance is rarely a satisfactory excuse.
45 No Roger, you are thinking of David Frum. Bob Shrum is the veteran Democratic speechwriter/political consultant who wrote speeches for John Kerry among others. He is known for flowery prose. He also has a horrendous record of his clients losing elections
29 Chris (from Paris) “Maybe the police should question the elves about the discs”
Only if it’s an elf-and-safety issue!
61 What I am not sure, yet is that your party can persuade us that you would do better.
It certainly couldnt do worse. First, they can win praise by kicking out Labour.
Things were so much better when the Conservatives were in. Even with rubbish John Major and selfish “Quentin Davis type” MPs having tantrums, the country was better run.
There were standards.
There is of course a tendency of the opposition to exagerate every Govt c**k up into some poll turning event. Looking back 5 hours later on the 3.30 announcement, this issue has the potential to be a poll turning event because it affects so many people right now.
Tonight it will be on the minds of most people with children. We all have another thing to worry about. We now have to rethink about bank passwords, and monitor bank statements more thoroughly than before. Life just got a bit more stressful and this Govt is to blame. We are not allowed to kick the cat these days (Nick P note) so who do we lash out at for this worry? Answer, Labour.
That I suggest dear pbers is how the voting public will see it and Brand Brown will take a big hit.
Even those without children or whose children have grown up will also regard this Govt with a bit less regard than before.
I am prepared to forgive Mrs Wood (does she have a name of her own) what is clearly her one error. She is a veritable paragon.
Does she vote Liberal democrat? Do you know how she votes?
69
Public Enquiries are a way of delaying action and protecting the guilty whilst damming the innocent.
What was the name of that judge who said cleared Blair and Campbell? Lord letsgetthemalloffsoIcanenjoymyretirement Hutton?
Waste of time and money.
Cheaper to fire 50 civil servants and three minsters .. and give them golden handshakes.. and know you will have got at least half of them right.. (a better clearup rate than the Criminal Injustice System)
77 I of course don’t *know* that she votes for me…..
“It involves the security of everybody’s family and the fear that at anytime someone could be silently stealing their money.”
Has Labour not been silently stealing people’s money for 10 years anyway? Not that I would mind if we had world class health care and shit hot public transport.
66: Perhaps he suggested a change of leadership.
Marcus -when I stood for the GLC my wife asked my son aged 6 who she should vote for. “Daddy of course” he said. “Why?” she asked “Because you love him….you do love him, don’t you?” came the reply. I beat the Tories into third place!
78 You may be right. However, the facts need to known about what happened.
Was someone employed in a job that they werent qualified, entitled or cleared to work in?
I want to know how this happened and who was responsible. I dont want some Labour crony closing the book whim like some Bribes for Baronets Inquiry.
We will probably not know until a new Government but I want to know who did it and who let it happen.
76) Just wait until the bank accounts are closed just before Xmas for the the real shouting and screaming to start. Labour will not be getting much for Xmas from Santa!
82 I know they have some strange rules at the GLC, Icarus, but your 6yo son was allowed to vote?
Dow, S&P, and Nasdaq moving up faster than Tory election prospects in last 1/2 hour.
I’m imagining an 18 year old going home to his Mum saying he’d just been fired. “My boss told me make a UB40 CD and I got the wrong one”
I cant see this bringing Darling down himself..yet.
What we really need to do is wait and see if the story holds up or leaks start coming out that this is even worse that it seems. Brown will only move to get Darling out once something threatens Brown himself more directly and he’s look to take the heat out of something. Until then Darling and the rest of them are handy punchbags.
68 I should stop ‘wasting my time’ with all this pointless politics and concentrate on what really matters in life, swag and tails
Sorry to be a bit naive as regards your post Marcus, but I assume swag means money as in Dick Turpin, etc. Does “tails” mean sex by any chance?
Are you LOL?
86
Plunge Protection Team?
86 - The markets are just silly at the moment. Rarely a day goes buy without massive fluctuations in both directions and come the end of the week they always end up in the same place. Gives me confidence that the wisdom of the crowd doesn’t think they’re overvalued, personally.
Peter -he meant “Swags and Tails” silly - Very popular in Torquay -rather dated elsewhere in the country!
No, but was allowed to go into the polling station.
The helpline number for this fiasco is 0845 3021444 - not even a freephone number - the government are trouser’ing money (0845s function like premium rate where there is a kickback to the service provider in this case HMRC, albeit at a much reduced rate).
92 - A curtain thing, it seems?
94 - You want 25million people ringing a help line number?
55. SBS it seems this was not an isolated incident. Not quite in the same league but……..
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/11/more-evidence-of-misuse-of-personal.html
Apologies if this has already been posted.
92 Oh right, I see …. I think.
84 - “Just wait until the bank accounts are closed just before Xmas for the the real shouting and screaming to start.”
I guess they could always use the cash from our accounts to bail out NR.
93 To help with the count?
75 AMNBH. “Even with rubbish John Major and selfish “Quentin Davis type” MPs having tantrums, the country was better run.
There were standards.”
So well run, that in 1997 we got the biggest hiding since the war. Major’s collapse was a lesson that we still need to be reminded of.
As for standards . . .
John Major’s government reminds me of an Army officers annual appraisal report:”This officer sets himself extremely low standards - which he consistently fails to achieve”
I liked this quote in The Mole’s article:
“We can take knighthoods away you know,” said a minister.
But do they have to give the cash back if they do?
Just a reminder 7to everybody - it was announced yesterday that Huhne v Clegg are appearing on BBC newsnight tonight. I suspect Paxo is sharpening his knives and there should be some more political entertainment for the day if you have not had your fill already!
re 17 re security it was amazing that wandering around Paris you had to look for the government buildings as they weren’t immediately obvious from hoards of mach9ine gun toting gendarmes and unsightly concrete blocks. Still at least you didn’t have to look very far to find a convenient rubbish bin to deposit your rubbish. And what did I hear when on the Tube on the way back yesterday - “Please help us to keep the underground tidy by taking your rubbish home”.
And yes you’re quite right I can foresee the tanks at Heathrow by the weekend, and they must be getting quite worried just down the road in Bordesley Green and Sparkbrook of having their doors smashed in by the paramilitaries in the middle of the night and being rounded up.
101 It sounds like you are agreeing with me. So why post?
John Major was rubbish. Fat Selfish MPs held the Governement to Ransom. The biggest hiding followed 18 years of continous Government that saw a revitalised Britain and a free Eastern Europe.
Of course they got a hiding. On a personal level they were rubbish. But the country was properly run, stable and with standards.
The Police policed. Candidates were judged on ability rather than ‘ethnicity’ and sexuality. Qualifications were worth more than the paper printed on. Immigration Officials protected our borders. Pensions were considered sacrosanct. Even lefty Maxwell threw himself overboard when he got caught.
GBrown does a Maxwell Pension raid and becomes PM.
Anyone prepared to make a guess at the eventual cost to the government in compensation to victims of fraud due to the HMRC fiasco.
The first known victim appears to be a family from Glasgow who had £2,800 stolen from their bank account last week following fraudulent calls to the Child benefit offices.
25. Roger. I totally disagree. There are currently 144 pages of comments on the BBC’s Have Your Say on this issue and most of them say basically “What a shambles.”
As to Led Zeppelin getting back together, not everyone is overwhelmed. I used to live in Headley where Led Zeppelin used to record, and sometimes reside, at Headley Grange (it used to be the workhouse). One day the band were performing on their front lawn when some friends of mine, who lived opposite, came over and told them to turn the racket down. They did.
re 94 the geographical equivalent to that number is 0191 2251144. You could probably ring that for free with most mobile phone packages, but of course you’ll never get an answer because GB’s sacked large chunks of HMRC.
106 time for a vote of no confidence?
105.JohnF, have you got a link because IIRC Darling told the HoC that the banks were being vigilant and that there was no evidence yet that the missing information had been used to for criminal purposes??
106. If there becomes a causal link between the missing data and any fraud, then Darling will have to resign and the government will, quite literally, be on the rocks.
Con gain Bootle.
105 I apologise if I gave the impression that I was totally agreeing with you - I don’t (but I disagree in a friendly way of course).
I don’t recall things being as you state them at all:
“The Police policed. Candidates were judged on ability rather than ‘ethnicity’ and sexuality. Qualifications were worth more than the paper printed on. Immigration Officials protected our borders. Pensions were considered sacrosanct. ”
Major’s government had rampant political correctness, mediocrity in educational standards, sleaze etc. As for standards, they were going right down the toilet in his time as well.
The only thing - ONLY thing - to be said about it is that it was not as bad as the current shower. (And I never thought that I’d be able to say that in 1997)
82. Icarus, (:
113&114.
111:
:lol: 
:lol: 
:lol: 
:lol: 
:lol: 
:lol: 
:lol: 
:lol: 
Lot’s of ribaldry on the earlier thread about the data ending up in Lagos. What worries me is that it ends up in Russia. “Hey peadophile ring, wanna buy a list of addresses in [pbr streetgang's postcode] where six year old girls reside?”
102 but it seems impossible since 1997 for a Minister to resign….
112 Major’s government had rampant political correctness, mediocrity in educational standards, sleaze…
…it was not as bad as the current shower.
Major was rubbish. Britain was better.
Exactly. You do agree with me.
110
Chris D,Sorry,no link but the report was on the 5pm BBC radio news;apparently a recording was made of the call and it was convincing enough to pay out.
Don’t know if you also heard Darling saying in his statement that in the event of any fraud the victims would be covered and reimbursed by their bank.
In the same news bulletin a banker was interviewed and stated that a bank will not be responsible for fraud caused by negligence and any compensation would need to be underwritten by the government.
120 in the event of any fraud the victims would be covered and reimbursed by their bank
Whoever pays, in the event of fraud, the victim faces an uphill struggle to prove it.
It will mean a lot of stress and no gaurantee of redress.
NickP from the last thread and other apologists claiming this isn’t a big deal…
care to post in your next comment:
1 - Your full home address
2 - The full name and date of birth of all people who live at this address
3 - Your NI number
4 - Your main bank account number together with sort code
Unless you do I suggest you shut up
re 110/120 it was on today’s PM programme at 13m40s - the chap’s bank account was emptied but it could be entirely unrelated to the present scandal
120. Thanks, that is indeed very serious, as is the lack of clarity between the Treasury and Banks over who will compensate anyone who might be effected in the event of fraud due to the HMRC fiasco.
Phew, wife unit tells me that the child benefit goes into a separate savings account.
30 - I am very sorry to hear of the death of Ian Smith (former Rhodesian PM). He was a great leader of his country and its a shame that he didnt outlive the tyrant Mugabe!!
123 Yes there are cases every day where people have their bank accounts emptied thrugh fraud and of course sometimes by the banks themselves with their unlawful penal bank charges .
127 the charges of course being applied to customers who like to help themselves to bank funds by breaching the terms of their account.
I’ve had my account emptied and the bank were very quick to act - I don’t think the case on the radio is related to this fiasco.
I am livid however about the whole thing and look forward to teaching what is set to become THE case study in poor security infrastructure to my underaduate students. I don’t really care about the politics of it - my children’s information is now floating around the ether and for Nick Palmer to produce a ‘no big deal’ post on the last thread is repulsive and unworthy of him.
129. Watching news at 10. OUCH.
I have to think this will be bad for Labour. I repeat there will be a lag between the next polls and this epic disaster.
But I can’t see them coming back from this.
The ten o clock news on the BBC has just shown a list of directions people should follow to make sure their accounts are safer. It smacks of the economic advice given by the news networks in previous times of economic uncertainty.
This is the biggest event in public confidence since Black Wednesday.
Ouuuuuuch
News at 10 questions govts basic competence
“Nick is it me, or are we beginning to look like the Tories in the 1990s”?
And then the BBC follow straight on from the loss of data to Northern Rock.
Oooouch!!!
nick robinson quoting a labour backbencher ” are we looking like the Tories in the 1990’s?”
goodnight gordo
Rik W @ 126.
Ian Smith was a vile white supremacist who was lucky not to be tried for treason. That Mugabe is his equal in opprobrium does not dilute the misery that Smith forced on his country.
Robert Peston = Labour’s least favourite bbc journo
135
Ian Smith by his actions gave Mugabe power.
128 That may be your opinion kingbongo but the whole essence of the test case being brought against the banks is whether their terms/conditions breach the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations ( 1999 ) . IMO the banks will back down just before the case comes to court . They are still imposing the potentially unlawful charges on the grounds that the court case has still to be heard but they have not been declared lawful in any court of law either and the chief executives of the banks could face criminal charges of theft for continuing to impose them where customers have said they do not have permission to do so until the case has been heard .
I can see this having an impact on those opinion polling companies who weight their results by past voting patterns.
They’ll have to start adjusting the figures for “shy Labourites” - people who won’t admit to voting Labour last time.
On thread. Can anyone tell me the lowest level reached on the spreads for Labour GE seats since the last election? And the highest level for Tory seats?
128.”I don’t really care about the politics of it - my children’s information is now floating around the ether and for Nick Palmer to produce a ‘no big deal’ post on the last thread is repulsive and unworthy of him.”
I agree with your sentiments Kingbongo, I am livid that my details and those of my children have been downloaded and then lost in this shoddy way. I too could not believe Nick’s response on the last thread and I nearly posted it on this one!
137. The whole history of independent Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is very sad. Of the two major regimes who have shaped the nation - Smith/Mugabe - both overlooked the consensus and sense of national cohension needed to allow the breadbasket of Africa to flourish as a confident and self-assured nation.
Smith helped Mugabe to power through his discriminatory policies. And Mugabe has brought Zimbabwe to ruin.
I’m a big supporter of Nick’s on a personal level (not a political one) but you cannot ‘no big deal’ this. Not even Darling tried to.
135 Given a choice between Ian Smith and Robert Mugabe, I’d say there was no contest.
143. Indeed. I am glad that Nick posts on here as it shows a level of accessibility few MPs seem to embrace. But you cannot shrug this off. This is big. The government has lost the data of literally millions of families, to God knows where.
No one starved under Smith.
I love the idea that Ian Smith who fought a war to stop Mugabe and his butchers (and succeeded for many years) IS responsible for Mugabe ruining Zimbabwe but Lord Carrington, Jimmy Carter and various international big wigs who forced Mugabe upon the people AREN’T responsible.
Something wrong, surely…
135 and 137 - Silly leftist responses. Smith presided over a successful country leading to relative prosperity for black and white. Rhodesia was the breadbasket for southern Africa under his wise leadership. In fact you could say that he left a “golden economic legacy” for Mugabe which he has comprehensively screwed up.
Under Smith blacks migrated TO Rhodesia to live and work. Under Mugabe blacks and whites seek refuge in neighbouring states like South Africa and Mozambique! Take off your racial blinkers and look at the actual governance of the two men!
Smith was a benign and successful leader.
Mugabe has all but destroyed his country and elimated all effective opposition and free speech!
Why did Smith want white supremacist rule? Was it because he was such a shrew judge of character of Mugabe, or was it because he was racist?
Like South Africa, Rhodesia had a long and clumsy road to majority rule. Unlike South Africa there was no Mandela figure to unite the tribes.
Conspiracy theory alert.
Given the position of labour in the polls may be the theft of this CD with people’s names and address on it was so that Labour could apply for postal votes in their names and nothing to do with bank details at all.
150 LOL
134 - “we” rather than “you”? A telling slip of the tongue for the BBC=Labour conspiracy theorists
150 - so the CD is probably in Birmingham where they have the necessary expertise for electoral fraud.
149 - I suspect like most people of his era he had a paternalist streak and a desire to hang on to power. However, unlike Mugabe, he did not do it at the expense of devastating the country he loved!
The conservative MP Anne Mcintosh is speaking at my school on friday, she is a relatively unimportant backbencher. Does anyone have any ideas for difficult questions i can ask her?
Perhaps the government wil impose a three line whip at PMQ’s tomorrow.
It will be savage and my guess is that Vince Cable will at long last shine.
Not long before NULabour drift out to odds against to win the next general election.
I shall dash from House of Commons after a meeting to watch England at Wembley where I have backed Frank Lampard to score the first goal and silence the boo-boys.
155. She’s a Europhile if that’s any help.
Rik W @ 148.
As a Conservative voter I resent your snide and simplistic response that an objection to your viewpoint is “silly” or “leftist” or that I need to “take off … racial blinkers.”
I am most saddened that a fellow Conservative should seek to defend a man whose squalid racial aparthied policies were matched only by the equally appalling regime in South Africa.
Shame on you Mr Willis.
newsnight indicates that these disc have been missing for 3 weeks+
Is it my imagination or is it the case that this Government has not on any occasion taken any responsibility for its actions whatsoever, no matter what the damage is to the public ?
Whether it be
The war in Iraq
Millenium Dome
Health Service
Transport
Immigration
National Security
Inland Revenue
Council Tax
War on Terror
Government IT Systems
Family Credit Payments
Student Loans
Cash for Honours
Cash for Questions
Cash for Passports
No matter what the problem has been, it is always not their fault.
It begs the question, if it is not their fault, then what on earth are they doing in power, what is their responsiblity in running the country, is it simply revenue raising, something they appear to be very good at without mistakes ?
In my view this Government are not fit for office and should resign, should dissolve parliament and hold a general election, otherwise we might just as well be living in China or Pakistan, or under the regimes of Saddam Hussein or Robert Mugabe.
160 - a very well stated post. Or briefly, labour are shyte!
Watching ITV news these days is like reading the Torygraph or the Mail - since Brown pissed them off by bottling out exclusively to the BBC. They are massively putting the boot in, more than the BBC 10 News did.
Now saying that no-one from the Treasury, or the Govt generally, was prepared to come on and be interviewed tonight.
157. Most of her constituents rely on european subsidies as their main source of income, so her europhillia will be easy to defend. Thanks though.
Any lack of resources at HMRC which some lefty-types are bringing up which is irrelevant - it’s the fact that the top-man and senior management are barely computer literate at a time when the most crucial part of their operational job is the secure management of large databases.
163. Or at least a significant proportion.
Newsnight claiming that the data was unencrypted
I reckon the Labour benches were all dressed up for a funeral today, but the body cannot be laid to rest until 2010. Some of them will be looking for their old jobs back at the polytechnics.
Newsnight looks really bad for the government. The woman just interviewed seemed to lay all of the blame at the feet of Brown, and now it seems that the data wasn’t even encrypted. Who has 25 million records of personal information and doesn’t encrypt it? Shocking, shocking incompetence.
Tomorrow’s papers are going to be fun!
Hopefully no polls due this week, would be a shame to see Labour’s slump through the 30% trapdoor not reflected. Let’s wait till this story has run a few more days as the national hunt for the missing discs gets underway. (I’m thinking “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory”, and a national frenzied hunt for golden CD-roms instead of Wonka bar tickets…)
158. Mr W’s total inability to see that my enemy’s enemy does not have to be my friend (or the only alternative) is pretty par for the course. The other brain cell is in the wash?
I just saw Iain Dale kicking ass on sky - tomorrow’s papers are *horrible* for Labour
Sun headline “Skip to the Loo my Darling” (seriously)
Claimed in comments on Guido that “Darling told Brown he would resign if Brown didn’t come to the Commons with him this afternoon.”
Anyone heard the same?
that woman on newsnight highlights everything wrong with this govt. an arse covering liar trying to cling to her job….. this really should end this govts tenure
Phillip Hammond rather good on Newsnight I thought - reasonable and measured, though given a good lead-in on ID cards by Paxman.
169 This is what the Sun has to say about the fiasco so far:
“This government wants to bring in a national ID card scheme which would rely entirely on computer technology.
Its record on IT has been one disastrous and costly flop after another.
Opponents of ID cards will have a field day with today’s news.”
The reason that I quote the Sun is that once it turns on Labour you can be sure that Murdoch has decided the the Tories will win the next election, and he always likes to back winners.
Cambridge data security professor now sticking the knife in.
Top data boffin on Newsnight (complete with row of pens in top pocklet!!!) giving Jane Kennedy a good kicking for refusing to take on board recommendations about the risks of the way data has been held.
Oh dear, Jane Kennedy getting knocked all about the place!
Top Data Boffin = Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge. Top bloke, on top of his brief and telling it how it should be. I want people like him running my country.