Why are all Brown’s problems from here?
November 29th, 2007
Could there be a local general election impact?
I don’t think anybody has picked up that all Labour’s current problems seem to have emanated in the same place - Newcastle upon Tyne.
Thus the headquarters of the troubled bank which continues to cause anguish for the party, Northern Rock, is based in the city and is one of its biggest employers.
It was at the Inland Revenue and Customs offices on Tyneside that the data on the 25 million people was down-loaded onto the CD-roms that have gone missing.
And to cap it all this week the property developer at the heart of the latest Labour donations scandal, David Abrahams, is from Tyneside and it is his company’s property scheme just by the A1M that has become the focus of much attention.
All a coincidence - of course. But I just wonder if the cumulative affect of the problems might have an impact in Durham City, Newcastle North and Newcastle East - all Lib Dem targets? Any LAB>LD losses could have a big impact on the overall general election outcome.
This part of the world has been a traditional Labour stronghold for decades and has a history of Labour scandals. In the early 1970s the corruption scandals that rocked Labour involved politicians such as T Dan Smith and Andy Cunningham - both prominent Tyneside party figures who were jailed.
Mike Smithson
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I don’t think the impact will be local; the impact will be felt by (a) Northern Rock investers (b) people who don’t like sleaze (c) parents of children afraid of having their identities stolen - in other words, people all over the country.
Off Topic but well anyway:
(a) What if a parallel universe had put Blunkett in Number 10 instead of Brown? What sort of mess and scandals then?
(b) What are the odds on who will appear first in (i) public (ii) the House of Commons - Menzies Campbell or Andrew Pelling?
(c) A question for the people who are old enough to judge: What would David Penhaligon have been like as leader of the Liberal Democrats if it had been him instead of Ashdown? (The question is prompted by suggestions last year that Simon Hughes wouldn’t have been leader because he was a bit disorganised as party president (i.e. high profile to the public but not so popular among colleagues (and I am old enough to remember Penhaligon but not old enough to be able to judge properly what he was like)))
From 120. in two threads ago, in case Chris A is still wondering: the results from Australia take so long because they have to wait for days and even weeks for all the postal votes to come in from around the world and the outback and Kalgoorlie etc. The UK is unusual in requiring all postal votes to arrive before the close of poll. I don’t know what the exact deadline is, but in the 2000 Florida recount saga it emerged that postal votes had to be checked for the date of the post-mark, i.e. that it was posted before the close of poll; without the recounting, even that would have been overlooked.
Caroline Flint’s drawn the short straw to represent Labour on tonight’s QT, apparently. I predict she’ll say “at the end of the day” a lot.
Caroline Flint’s drawn the short straw to represent Labour on tonight’s QT, apparently. I predict she’ll say “at the end of the day” a lot.
OT. Interesting how much support the ‘Westminster Bank Three’ got from the Tory Party who fought tooth and nail against their extradition.The Telegraph even ran a PR campaign for them.Yet it seems they were guilty all along and are now plea bargaining so that they only get three years.
It’s a shame that Labour are screwing up so badly because the Tories and cheer leaders really are the same old shower but it is they who are likely to be the beneficiaries.
4&5 Interesting rulika, interesting rulika. Rather like how many times Brown would use the word “prudent” during a budget speech for which, IIRC, the spread betting firms would made a market.
What’s you guess on this one - 6 times, 8 times, 10 times, more even? One is almost tempted to watch this most politically biased of all the BBC’s programmes, just for the increasing excitement of such a count.
At the end of the day however, I think I am just able to resist.
6 If you knew anything about the dodgy US court system, they have to take a plea otherwise they would have probably another 2-3 year wait to appear in court and face a 30 year jail term. They don’t have real choice
What would you have done?
I’ve just heard the Tory donor Stuart Wheeler lie on radio. He was asked if he had ever told the party he would not give them money if they followed any particular policy and he replied “certainly not!”. I heard him myself say he would stop donating if they didn’t alter their EU policy.
It’s odd how it’s taken for granted that politicians have to accept higher standards of probity than the likes of Wheeler or the rest of us.
Newcastle Brown Ailment?
6 - Roger I believe it was the Liberal Democrats, in particular one of your “attractive new leaders”, Nick Clegg, who led the charge, but don’t let that get in the way of an anti-Tory rant.
Not that their guilt or otherwise under US law was the primary issue anyway! (there would hardly have been the same fuss if everyone had been expecting them to be cleared).
Losses to the LD’s? The party whose leader thinks the Northern Rock rescue is a “fiasco” and the money has disappeared into a “black hole”? Come next May will all those shiny new LD councillors in Newcastle tell voters who invest in or work for Northern Rock that their party would have let them sink? They should but of course we all know they won’t and as usual they will get their customary easy ride from the media ie zero critique of their multi-facing positions
6: The Torys were supporting these men because of an unfair and one sided extradition treaty. Can`t seem to recall any Tory second guessing a court, even in American one.
12 - but the LDs have been campaigning for Northern Rock to be nationalised…
Have the Lib Dems copied the Conservative practice of having the right leaders in the wrong order?
Re 12
Yes they are saying that now but how long would that take.? Immediate action was taken to save the bank and stop panic runs on other banks, the LD’s are now s**t-stirring with 20-20 hindsight.
“What is it about the North East”? When I asked this question the other day someone said ‘it’s called 100 years of one party rule’. Infact I think it’s a problem of never having had the civilizing influence of immigrants like cities and towns on the west side of England which face civilization. No one passes through Newcastle unless you’re actually going there. When I went up there for a meeting a while ago the thing that struck me was how few black and brown faces there were. Morrisey would love it
5 betting opportunity? on how many times sher says it?
11 and 13. I don’t recall the Tories or their house mag mounting a similar PR offensive on behalf of the so called ‘Islamic terrorist’ who has just been extradited?
Roger: “the civilizing impact of immigrants”
rofl, no really rofl
The wine list in Wogers favourite restaurant must have been good last night. The postings from Nice are as bizarre as ever. Strangely Woger appears to have forgotten that one of the Nat West Three is the son of a leading Labour politician and would normally be given the Woger vote of confidence.
However a person who a few days ago managed to rename or get confused over Broon’s American speech writer (Shrum), post that Byers resigned over an incident that took place more than a year before he actually went is hardly likely to have sufficient recall on what Wheeler said sometime ago.
Woger should be careful whom calls a liar in these threads - Wheeler is exactly the sort that might like a day in court. We would all hate Woger to lose one of those four homes.
17 Roger, you really are a muppet sometimes. North Eastern folk are arguably the most decent, humane and friendly people in the whole of the UK.
For you to argue that they are less civilized is just barmy.
BTW, haven’t you got previous on this?
re 17. I don’t think that’s correct Roger. The 2001 census showed that more than 7% of the population of Newcastle Centre was born outside the UK.
I spent the early part of my career in the city and there have always been significant immigrant communities.
The traditional problem is the Labour establishment which controlled your housing through the council, your job through the union and where you shopped through the Co-op. In my days there “Back-handy” Andy Cunningham, a very major Labour figure, used to be Labour leader of a big council, boss of the local GMU union and, I recall, chair of the Co-op.
I went to Newcastle in 1968 to work on the local papers as a strong Labour supporter and member. I left four years later thinking that the party stinks right to the core.
Roger’s post at 17 has nothing to do with Newcastle. It’s just a convoluted anti-Tory rant. It must really bug him that the Conservatives can’t get a vote in the area for love nor money.
2 JL: “What would David Penhaligon have been like as leader of the Liberal Democrats if it had been him instead of Ashdown?”
In a word - fantastic! I had the privelege of being given a guided tour by David Penhaligon of the Houses of Parliament many years ago as part of a group.
The guy was amazing. Sincere, genuine, intelligent and passionate. If more people had gotten to know him (as they would if he had become party leader), then the Liberals would not be the third party right now, but the second party (at the very least).
Average house prices fell by 0.8% in November:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7118336.stm
Arguably, worse news for Brown than any of his woes this week.
So argue.
9. Roger that is a total misrepresentation of what Stuart Wheeler said on 5 live.
19: Least said about Islamist anythings unless they throw the teddy bear out of the pram.
Plenty of dreadful Tory fiefdoms in the South. All sorts of skulduggery/incompetance must go on round here that doesn’t see the light of day due to an amazingly docile Soviet style local press and the lack of organised politcal opposition.
The civilising impact of immigrants. There was me thinking geordies were more open and friendly than most. Morrissey, how dare he express regret for a lost England. Do you mind I call my Teddy Bear, Morrissey?
Gordon’s problem’s just got a whole lot worse. Nationwide announce the biggest House Price fall since….
1995
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aL.cobqi2Tyw&refer=home
The crash is here!
29 And because the skulduggery/incompetance of the Tory fiefdoms in the South tends not to result in unsightly building developments in inappropriate places.
They just have nice tearooms, with cake and that.
25. I was at the count of the European elections in 1999 when the news came throught that Paddy Ashdown had announced his intention to resign as Lib Dem leader. I overheard a small group of Conservatives speculating about who the new leader might be; one of them suggested Penhaligon. I tactfully pointed out to him that he had been dead foor more than a decade. Nice to knowe the Tories are in touch with the modern world!
Roger, I normally have a reasonable level of respect for your postings though frequently disagree with your conclusions, but frankly you’re rapidly disappearing into your own bunker with posts like these. If their complacency, arrogance and misunderstanding are in any way representative of the way Labour officials and leaders are thinking then there’s not a cat in hell’s chance that Brown can win the next election. Of course, there’s no reason why they should be, although there is perhaps reason to assume that a number of Labour supporters an activists will think along the same lines, especially middle-class Toynbee-esque types who think they have an intuitive understanding of the hopes, fears and aspirations of traditional Labour voters because they both put a cross in the same part of the ballot paper.
Two points: firstly, what the Conservatives (or Lib Dems, but your type aren’t bothered about them because you think of them as yellow-rosetted Labourites, occasionally hostile but always there in times of need) would have done were they in power now, or did do in the past is of less relevance than what Labour is doing now. Previous governments have been judged at the polls, as this Labour one will be. Any government can be judged on its actions, which is a much sounder foundation than speculation, which is the best that can usually be said for what an opposition party might have done were it in power.
Secondly, spinning is a necessary part of politics but to delude yourself leads only to failure (hence the bunker reference). The Tories didn’t back the Westminster Three on the merits of their defence case against fraud charges but on the nature of the extradition treaty and the sovereignty questions arising from it. Indeed, I seem to recall comments that they should be tried in the UK - which indicates that there is at least the presumption that the charges have some merit.
Looking at Newcastle and comparing it to the heartlands of Scottish Labour support around Glasgow, you get the same feeling of one-party rule for many years with the problems that brings. Petty corruption, nepotism and discrimination(of many types) become the norm rather than the exception all ruled over by “benevolent” Politicians, and their business supporters, who are mainly in politics for profit and power rather than anything else. Hopefully in Scotland this rule has been broken and a better system will begin to evolve, perhaps Newcastle should look north and consider a change as well.
The “Tyneside Effect” may not have been picked up on by the MSM or DTP, but some bloggers and more noticably some of those who comment on the major blogs have been straight on to it.
The most obvious sites have been the spoof-news sites…
http://www.newsbiscuit.co.uk/board/2/board.html
(scroll down the page & check the dates)
…where political wits & wags have been pretty quick off the mark in conflating the NE connections of all these stories.
Guido had a very busy day yesterday & bloggers & posters are all off checking out Durham Green, The Newcastle Journal’s ‘Go For Jobs’ campaign and revising their history notes re T Dan Smith et al.
As a NE resident I agree that the place is pretty insular & inward looking. You wouldn’t end up here unless you were coming here specifically. I keep telling the natives that the rest of the country treats them as some sort of joke, as evidenced by the ‘country-lane’ state of the A1, but they won’t have it. As long as they believe that their footer team is not exiting the P’ship, they are pretty docile.
When Roger talks about the civilising influence of immigrants, I presume that he doesn’t mean to imply that this includes Sudanese immigrants - at least if they are in any way representative of the Islamofascist authorities there.
The UK may have some leverage to use on the Sudanese in the Teddy Bear case, due to the amount of aid we give them. According to a statement to the commons by the relevant minister, Hilary Benn, on 16th April 2007, UK aid to Sudan for 2007-2008 is projected at £110 million, of which £67 is for humanitarian work.
I suggest that unless the innocent British schoolteacher is released, we continued onating the humanitarian aid (though bypassing the Sudanese government), and cut the rest.
2 / 25 David Penhaligon was a huge loss to British Politics. I think I would be a Liberal now if he had become leader.
31 Here’s the money shot from Nationwide:
“Nationwide predicts house prices will stagnate next year, the first time they’ve failed to rise since 1992…”
4, 5 - Flinty on QT tonight?
I’ll be there.
Might record it too so I can view again later…
Roger is really excelling himself these days. Try substltuting ‘Edinburgh’ (another almost all-white city) for ‘Newcastle’ to see how dumb his argument is.
Why not be honest, Roger? You’re detatched enough to condemn Labour sleaze and incompetence but too bitterly partisan to handle the consequence - a likely Tory triumph. Your bogus radicalism is essentially an immature hangover from your student days.
‘Toff’ Cameron is going to be PM. Deal with it rather than throwing a protracted, low-intensity tantrum.
23. Your portrayal of the north-east politics in the 60s is good Mike but that was 40 years ago. Council housing, the trade union movement and the co-op are all diminished and most folk who live there don’t identify with the these traditional working class institutions any longer - and therefore the labour party doesn’t gain the benefit that it used to.
Local labour parties previously became lazy and that’s why the LDs made inroads just by working the wards using their famous “focus” newsletters etc. My impression is that the better constituency/ward labour parties have been fighting back for some years now, using exactly the same techniques as the Lib Dems and concentrating on pavement politics.
The eventual winners will be those who keep up the work rate. Obviously the national swing will help to determine the result but not necessarily more so than in the rest of the country.
35
Agreed
I understand some Labour councillors near Kilmarnock were in shock after being deposed by the SNP. They had been in power over 70 years and expected it as a right.
The problems in the NE stem solely from their inability to produce a winning football team for 50 years. Simple.
25/38. Judging by your replies, perhaps he would have been as popular as this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alDazjHfi3Y
Although the North East does have a history of political corruption, always connected with public sector projects or planning permissions, it hasn’t suffered from its latest form, postal voting fraud, which has been heavily over-represented in immigrant areas (it is not exclusively there). Postal voting is, to me, another reason for disliking NuLabour.
Doctor to Geordie in wheelchair : You’ve made good progress and now it’s time to try to walk again…
Geordie : Work? Why man, Aa cannet even waak!
29 An example containing the elements you mention is here in East Devon. And contrary to Marquee Mark’s comment at 32, inappropriate development can well be part of the mix. Moves are underway now which may well result in a large supermarket in an inappropriate and locally unwanted place.
Mike, there was an article in yesterday’s press, making precisely the same NE origin point as you make. I am still trying to find it! But I think you were beaten to it!
“However, Abrahams last night told the Guardian that Mendelsohn had solicited funds from him six weeks ago, an allegation that challenges Mendelsohn’s claim that all along he had been planning to end the entire financial relationship between him and the party”.
47 I’ll bet that “large supermarket in an inappropriate and locally unwanted place” is being put there due to a planning decision being made by a department being overseen by a Labour minister in London though.
Nationwide reports the largest one month fall in house prices since June 1995. Remember you heard it here first!
Here in the SW of course, David Penhaligon is a huge hero, and hardly a week goes by without him being quoted by someone. David’s huge ability, of course - and I didn’t know him personally - was to be great at empathising with people, first from Cornwall, but then, as shown by the 7 minute, top of the main news item about him when he died, for the whole country. What other backbench MP has ever been treated that way?
17. Well off beam on this one Roger. The North East has had well and long established immigrant communities going back over a century - not decades as in much of the rest of the UK - as you would expect from a (former) major industrial and raw material exporter - before the WWI HALF of global coal exports went down the Tyne. For example, the Arab immigrant community of South Shields arrived in the 19th Century. Read & learn:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/roots/2003/10/arabontyne.shtml
And of course, Gateshead is home to the Gateshead Yeshiva, the largest Haredi yeshiva in Europe, so Jews are happily ensconced too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateshead_Talmudical_College
Added to which, you will be hard pressed to find friendlier locals - who are indifferent to the condescension of southern (fill in expletive)……
53 - “Roger gets it wrong” shocker. Who’d have thought it…?
50 And, of course, underpinned by the “prerogative in favour of developers” introduced by Nicholas Ridley as Environment Secretary, one of Thatcher’s chief henchmen! No, you can’t rewrite history, Mark.
It may well be the case that NuLab have continued the thatcherite ways in dealing with business, especially, but the origin of such practice cannot be denied.
John Loony, I was priveledged to know David Penhaligan, and he remains one of the 10 most impressive people I have ever met. He was (and in a funny sort of way, still is) an inspiration. His problem was that he was genuinely funny - and consequently, people thought that he was not serious, or at least need not be taken seriously. I sat in a pub in Scotland with him once (he didn’t drink) and heard him talking about the plight of sub Saharan Africa, with particular regard to Chad, and it was a revelation.
If you ever get the chance, read the book written about him by his wife Annette. It is fascinating to see how an individual is both moulded by but also reacts against his environment. The incident when he was the witness in a murder case is rivetting.
I am not a sentimentalist, but I can still reduce myself to tears just thinking about him. His death was the greatest loss the Liberals ever suffered. Think how different the merger with the SDP would have been if he had been there to knock heads together!
39 “Nationwide predicts house prices will stagnate next year, the first time they’ve failed to rise since 1992…”
A highly optimistic assessment I would say. Just how many times does anyone recall the Nationwide (or the Halifax, etc) forecasting that house prices would actually fall over the following year?
It’s just not in the nature of things for obvious reasons.
56 Yes, he was genuinely liked and admired across the party divide.
And as for Labour hegemony in the North East - isn’t Newcastle City Council LD controlled - and has been since 2004?
http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/core.nsf/a/histcomp#1996
As someone who has spent a fair amount of time observing North-East Labour politics I would love to say there was some common thread of corruption/incompetence linking the three stories, but the facts just don’t stand that up. It’s merely a bizarre coincidence that David Abrahams is from there, Northern Rock happens to be based there, and the idiot who posted the lost discs from the HMRC at Washington (not Tyneside) works there. Ironically, it will probably have less impact on Labour support in the North-East than it is having in more marginal areas.
In any case, people in the North-East view the Northern Rock story through different eyes. If Alistair Darling spending £24bn of taxpayers’ money is enough to safeguard the 5,000 jobs at the Rock’s HQ, the region will hail him as hero, not the villain that London and the South is making him out to be.
O/T: Too young to remember Penhaligon well, but was his death entirely accidental?
Well - I think today is the most serious day for the Labour party in quite some time.
Harry Flashman’s point is very serious indeed. So Abrahams says Mendelsohn is lying. His letter implies asking for cash - a call asking for it all the more so.
Gordon Brown chose to protect this guy.
Now if it comes out that Abrahams was a front for a foreign money launderer, Labour are surely finished. If the Telegraph story is right and Labour’s third biggest donor was actually a foreign criminal, they simply have to call a GE. Tories and LibDems should unite in a no confidence motion.
50 Actually, and I have seen political groups in local areas of all stripes operating locally with long periods of tenure. It is almost always a good idea to bring in different blood and different ideas after a while. People do get stale, they do take things, and people for granted, and, God forbid, they very occasionally become arrogant!
*sigh*
The Revenue & Customs office was not in Newcastle…
“Mr Abrahams is described by friends as a “secretive” person who spends little money on himself but likes to rub shoulders with the great and the good at political and charity events.
Last year he was pictured shaking hands with the then Israeli ambassador, Zvi Heifetz, who was questioned then cleared over money-laundering allegations. Mr Heifetz was recently appointed as an adviser to Mr Blair in his role as Middle East peace envoy.
Yesterday, a Downing Street source said Labour “had not seen any evidence” to suggest the money was not Mr Abrahams’s. He added: “It would be very serious if it were the case. No one is aware of any such arrangement. It will be part of the inquiry.”
“Mr Abrahams is described by friends as a “secretive” person who spends little money on himself but likes to rub shoulders with the great and the good at political and charity events.
Last year he was pictured shaking hands with the then Israeli ambassador, Zvi Heifetz, who was questioned then cleared over money-laundering allegations. Mr Heifetz was recently appointed as an adviser to Mr Blair in his role as Middle East peace envoy.
Yesterday, a Downing Street source said Labour “had not seen any evidence” to suggest the money was not Mr Abrahams’s. He added: “It would be very serious if it were the case. No one is aware of any such arrangement. It will be part of the inquiry.”
60 Yes, David’s death was in a car on a frosty early morning going to greet local postmen before Christmas. He had to brake, going down a long hill, skidded, and collided with another vehicle.
17. Roger, has it occured to you that the North East is almost entirely white because it isn’t the most economically rational place to choose to emigrate to?
57 PfP - agreed, it is as near an admission of doom as you are ever going to get from a major lender. And it won’t make the lot of those negotiating the sale of Northern Rock any easier….
63 Yes, I am sure Sunderland people would want Washington, the site of the office concerned, labelled Wearside, not Tyneside! You wouldn’t make that mistake at the Stadium of Light or St James’s Park and get away with it!!
Guido has a good one
http://www.order-order.com/2007/11/exclusive-police-to-seize-labour-party.html
A co-conspirator tells Guido that the Labour party’s High Value Donors Unit has a piece of American software that could provide very handy evidence for the police investigating the illegal fund raising scandal. “Raiser’s Edge” is supposed to record all contacts with donors including what events they have attended and what telephone calls have taken place. It will reveal some of the people who knew about Abrahams besides Peter Watt, Jon Mendelsohn and Baroness Jay.
The police will want to get in before they hit the delete button - if the software records that David Abrahams is in fact the donor for Kidd et al the scandal is institutional and systematic. Guido wonders what the software will record for the proxy donors. If the records go missing in a cover-up attempt it would indicate a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice - again!
56. I was 18 when Penhaligon died, so I was (sort of) aware of how popular he was, and I was in tears when I heard the news. I think I have seen his wife’s book, although I only skimmed through it in a bookshop rather than reading it properly.
It is nice to know that he was as impressive to those who knew him as his superficial TV image would suggest
Chercher Lord Levy.
He will have known all the major donors to the Labour party. Has anyone asked him? If the old guard did know where the money came from really then an election by Easter on the cards.
Labour’s traditional voters will be shaken by the recent problems and I would be amazed if 100% of the party faithful were supporting the party right now.
http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com
Too much criticism for some slightly tongue-in-cheek posts and not being there I might be underestimating the gravity of the situation.
Nonetheless this from Test made me laugh!
” If the Telegraph story is right and Labour’s third biggest donor was actually a foreign criminal, they simply have to call a GE. Tories and LibDems should unite in a no confidence motion”
That’ll get them rattled!
Roger has finally made me delurk on PBC - his comment at 17. is quite frankly outrageous, and beyond the pale. I am quite sure if we had made the same comment about African or Asian immigrants lacking civilisation instead of people from the North East, he would have been up in arms. Grow up Roger, and keep your offensive prattle to yourself!
does anyone else apart from me enjoyed the barbed asides each day from the presenters of the Yesterday in Parliament programme.
Typical example from today about the prime minister’s reply yesterday that he was going to do the job to the best of his ability - “that’s what a lot of people are worried about!”
34. ‘Roger, I normally have a reasonable level of respect for your postings…’
Some of us clocked that Roger is a buffoon a fair while ago.
I think Roger’s terrific.
Don’t let em get you down Rog.
The red harpies who call for xxx and yyy to be banned when making what they feel to be outrageous (ie they don’t agree with them) comments from the right, appear to be consipuous by their absence in condemning Roger for his ridiculous, ill-informed and quite insulting posts above.
Luckily I am a libertarian and believer in free speech so I wouldn’t stoop that low myself - far better for everyone to realise what a nasty piece of work he really is.
79 Red harpies, I thought it was the PMQ Cameron cheerleader bores who were calling for bannings when someone remarked that Stephen Milligan’s demise was humourous.
79. But you don’t understand. Test is right. Roger is fantastic. Rogerdamus with his predictions is always good for laugh. And when he goes into Woger mode, when he does that impression of the preening, sneering, middlebrow, champagne socialist halfwit, full of sublimated guilt and bitterness at the pointlessness of his “advertising career”, it’s just hilarious.
Don’t stop Rog. Keep ‘em coming!
Re 6, Roger, “OT. Interesting how much support the ‘Westminster Bank Three’ got from the Tory Party who fought tooth and nail against their extradition.The Telegraph even ran a PR campaign for them.Yet it seems they were guilty all along and are now plea bargaining so that they only get three years.”
There are lots of reasons to plea bargain, like for example not being able to fund endless court appearences and looking at the odds of winning or losing and cutting your loses.
The fact is that the crime if there was one was committed here against a British bank so had no American involvement other than what was actually traded in.
17. It must have been many years ago that you visited Roger because the population is now very diverse.Visit again soon we even have a ‘Yo sushi’ now………
56: I didn’t know Penhaligon, but the danger of being funny is one of the quirks of British politics. If you’re seen as genuinely amusing, people will never take you seriously.
Examples: Tony Banks, Boris Johnson, to some extent William Hague. Tony was a thoughtful left-winger and a hero to animal welfare campaigners, but he was only known as a wit. I’m biased against Boris, but his admirers say he’s actually very bright: if so, it’s not getting through to most people. And William Hague undoubtedly is very bright, but his reputation as leader was harmed rather than enhanced by being seen as a bit of a card.
And that’s a pity, isn’t it? Nobody will ever accuse me of being a great wit, but I enjoy hearing it and it shouldn’t detract from whatever other strengths the guy has.
Not just his admirers, Nick. He’s fluent in Latin. Doesn’t happen unless you’re either very bright, or a Roman with a time machine.
17 - nice to see a good cyber-kicking administered to that offensive drivel.
Coming from a different bit of the north which is historically “disgustingly white”, as another soppy lefty might have termed it, I must say I don’t feel especially uncivilised because of this totally inconsequential fact.
Grow up Roger, you’re not a stoodent any more.
Quentin Letts on yesterday’s PMQs - brilliant!
http://tinyurl.com/yplmxw
84 I think another problem Penhaligan had was his accent. Rustic West Country just doesn’t come across as intellectual; if his accent had been (say) Scottish, or Mancunian,I expect things would have been different. Racism again, wot?
By the way, have there been any developments in the story doing the rounds that David’s son Matthew might be going for the Truro seat now that Matthew Taylor is standing down?
Re, Cable no denying that he performs much better than he sounds or looks.
It’s almost as if he has an ‘agenda’ to make the most of his time as leader and to prove he is capable of the job… it would have been far better to be a low key caretaker and let the new boy make a big impact?
Basically, Huhne or Clegg are going to a have a stalker that the press like more than them and the bar has been set higher than it needed to be.
That’s a bad combination as if they don’t excel, they will get mauled. The press have already chewed Cameron until he was nearly toast. They are currently after Brown, seemingly for the kill… the LD’s are next on the list I’d have thought if they court media attention (which they will).
Also, it’s to be hoped (from the LD’s point of view) that there aren’t any damaging press stories being held back until it’s clear who will take over…
However unlikely is seems, in my opinion it would suggest yet another LD leadership contest before prior to the GE, sooner if the May elections return poor results (unlikely due to Labour’s problems).
The media, in the end, will decide if the LD’s remain as a credible political party or not.
Reality check time - fellow anoraks. What are today’s headlines:
SUN: FRAUD COPS ARREST REDKNAPP
Daily Excess: Madeleine: Police in Make or Break Summit
Hate Mail: Islamic Fanatics demand Teacher ‘must die’ for insulting Islam
Mirror: Harry Redknapp Arrested in Bungs Probe.
Tomorrow’s Fish & Chip paper. I know this is not going to go away - but, just possibly, Gordon has got lucky with the ‘other news’ - and I’m not really sure how much of this attaches to one political party, rather than politicians in general - ‘they’re all as bad as each other’. The Tories better be 100% confident that 100% of their donations are 100% bona fide….or they are going to look pretty foolish……
89 Surely, Matt, the press had their fun with the Lib Dems a few months ago with the Ming Campbell Ageism thing. They are not a novelty anymore, and will be ignored.
Someone who has picked up on the NE thread is Julia Langdon in today’s “Telegraph”. It makes interesting reading and I loved the reference to “Get Carter” - one of my favourite films.
Strange that Hills are no longer including on their website their G Brown To Leave P M Office - What Year?
Are they running scared?
Worth reading to understand the influence of “The Lobby”…
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
Do we really want that here?
90 I wish I could agree with you Carlotta, but not because of any affection for Gordon and The Tufties. I have a big open sell position on Labour and I’d like to close it, but every time I’m about to, more bad news breaks.
Polls due at the weekend. Better hold on a bit longer.
PfP @ 87 re Letts on PMQs — no, not brilliant: wrong. Worse, he misses the point.
Cameron’s was not a forensic dissection of whatever “-gate” we are calling the Labour funding scandal; it consisted mainly of hysterical abuse. It was Cable and Ancram who skewered Brown.
And Letts misses what may be the crucial part of Cameron’s rants, where he twice attacked the Prime Minister’s personal integrity. I doubt this was accidental so presumably Cameron knows more than has so far come out, a smoking gun that will do for Brown’s premiership.
The PM lives in interesting times.
I posted at 4 10:
First, the Republican debate
O/T- About the Republican debate, it started with a fight about immigration between Giuliani and Romney (nothing that I saw again during the debate). Giuliani was good but not brilliant, the same with Romney. McCain had some good lines, he was good when he talked about Iraq and torture. Mike Huckabee was very good, he can be funny and serious at the same time, I can see his campaign gaining more attention. All of them seem to be trying to answer the same question: “Who is more conservative?”. It’s easy to see the winner in the Democratic debate, but I can’t see one winner in this debate!!!!
Second-I know I have already said, but I need to repeat. The Independent “robbed” my idea!!!(just look at their front page)
“New game in the Labour party- who gets the blame?
by Me November 27th, 2007 at 6:02 pm”
4 and 5: Caroline Flint is the worst person to have as here only mode of operation is petty attacks.
The Guardian Leader on Dromey and Mendelsohn calls for their heads.
“Some - such as Labour’s serially ignorant treasurer, Jack Dromey - may have to resign because they knew too little. ”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2218615,00.html
“The gap between this behaviour, an attempt to limit the fallout, and the prime minister’s own claim to outrage is too wide for Mr Mendelsohn to keep his job if the prime minister wants to be taken seriously.”
98: petty, perhaps. Pretty, certainly.
I’ll be cheering her on tonight!
Roger is such a nasty bigoted racist.
Imagine if someone had said what he said about a black country. If someone said that the blacks in South Africa needed the civilizing influence of white immigrants.
Unfortunately so many on the left think like this, “John is white, chavvish, uncivilised and racist, he needs some ‘diversity’ to stop him being so beastly”. Cf. “Muhammed is brown, he is being racially and religiously discriminated against, we need more understanding of his unique and diverse culture”
Sadly people like Roger actually have power over recruitment policies, over numerous quangos, education, and more. It is rather strange, but there are definitely a huge number of ’self-hating whites’ determined to beat up on white people, while demanding ‘understanding’, ‘tolerance’, ‘diversity’, and funding when it is non-white people. It is very dangerous, because although you get white idiots like Roger attacking millions of white people simply for not having ‘enough’ immigrants to make them civilised, you don’t have the opposite people, certainly not in any position of influence, to balance him out.
Roger
Great spoiler campaign.
Right now I’ve got my tin hat on and can barely watch the TV. It’s the worst PR since the early 80’s.
I suspect the Tory fundraiser area also saying, “There but for the grace of God go I”
102 John Wheatley, I have naught for your comfort (I am pleased to say!) but surely this is going to blow over? Supposing the whole affair rumbles on until Christmas, with a resignation or two to keep the press and PB.com amused. In the new year there will be a reshuffle, a new policy initiative, a soundbite or three and it will all be over. The dogs bark, and the caravan moves on. OK, I can see Labour getting comprehensively thrashed in the Locals in MAy, but that was going to happen anyway. Brown is in for the long term, and can sit it out, embarrassing though that may be.
90 - selective headlines. Telegraph: “Labour sleaze, hunt for the real donor.” Guardian “Brown left exposed” and all the main papers carry it inside as a major story.
88 Augustus
You have a bit of catching up to do. Terrye Teverson (formerly Terrye Jones, twice candidate for the old Falmouth Camborne seat in the 90s) has been selected for new Truro Falmouth seat, and Stephen Gilbert a young(ish) Councillor for the other part of MT’s seat - StAustell and Newquay. Matthew penhaligon didn’t put his name forward. All this happened a few months ago.
88. Matthew Taylor successor.
Terrye Teverson nee Jones is the Lib Dem PPC for the new seat of Truro & Falmouth. Now the wife of exMEP Lord Robin Teverson, formerly as Mrs Jones the PPC for Falmouth Camborne in 92 and 97
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/truroandfalmouth
100 Flint pretty? Distinctly plain. Maybe she looks good to some because of the state of the other MPs?
59 - AT LAST - all the media coverage (and people on here) goes on about Newcastle being a Labour Heartland.
In fact both destinations on the picture on Mike’s thread - Newcastle and Durham City - are LD run and look likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
Quentin Letts:
“a more accurate reflection of the session came when Sir Patrick Cormack (Con, S Staffs) wondered what Mr Brown wanted for Christmas.
The Prime Minister: “I might have one day off.”
Several MPs: “Take as many as you want!”
Thanks for the update on the Lib Dem goings-on in Corn-shire (as the late great Barry McKenzie used to call it)
To donate circa £700,000 to a political party, just how rich do you reasonably need to be? £10M, £20M, £40M, more perhaps? Is Abrahams in this league, does anyone know?
100: Bob, should have gone to Specsavers.
111 the Telegraph story discusses that and says 500k = 50 mil.
Hence the REAL scandal brewing that perhaps Abrahams is a front for a money laundering foreigner buying influence with the Labour party - an Israeli is suggested in the Telegraph story
“The second concerns the conduct of the Prime Minister. Disturbing reports have emerged that Gordon Brown is rude to his secretaries — or garden girls, as they are known inside Downing Street. He is said to shout at them abusively. On one occasion he is reported to have impatiently turfed one of the girls out of her chair and sat down to use the keyboard himself.
(…)Only Gordon Brown has vented his frustration on secretaries, who can never answer back or speak for themselves. In the end this intemperate and regrettable conduct may cause him as much damage as Mr Abrahams.”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/376916/part_2/at-the-heart-of-the-labour-funding-scandal-is-the-moral-collapse-of-a-oncegreat-party.thtml
97 Me - I see you share my interest in the US elections.
This http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/clinton_could_lose_iowa_new_ha.html
struck me as a very well balanced article. Have a look if you haven’t already read it.
Remember Labour got slaughtered (78:22) in the North East Regional Assembly Referendum back in November 2005.
So maybe Labour are so impregnable as they might like to hope in the North East.
Incidentally, sort of O/T, but wrt HMRC, has anyone in Westminster suggested that this might illustrate a problem in having agencies dotted all over the country while their ministerial overlords are permanently ensconced in London? Just a thought, but it really must be pretty difficult to keep track of problems from a distance of 300 miles. It would be hard enough for the Chancellor to, say, arrange meetings with the on site managers at HMRC.
115 PtP - Plenty of us have an interest in the upcoming US Presidential Election and primaries! Yesterday, you suggested a bet on Huckabee as a real prospect for the Republican nomination. How about him to win the really big prize, where Hills have him at 25-1?
113 - I think £50m is too low for a £500k of donations. I think to be consistent we’re into the 100s of £millions at least, if not higher. Remember these donations are not one-offs.
107 It’s the Westminster life style (booze, drugs, late nights, junk food, BDSM) that ruins their looks within a few years.
Mind you, although I was sceptical about the A List, there’s no doubt that the average level of attractiveness among Conservative MPs will rise once some of its members get elected next time.
105. “Stephen Gilbert a young(ish) Councillor for the other part of MT’s seat - StAustell and Newquay”
I don’t think he’s currently a councillor. He was a Restormel councillor from 1998 to 2002 and a Haringey councillor from 2002 to 2006
119 Don’t forget that he has no immediate family to whom he can leave his fortune, so the assumed 1% factor wouldn’t necessarily apply.
Can Brown still be the shortest serving PM ever ?
108 Definitely a Labour heartland at Parliamentary level though.
118 PfP
Sorry, he hasn’t a prayer. You can have 25/1 with me if you like! Read that article. Here’s the link again.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/clinton_could_lose_iowa_new_ha.html
115-PtP-Very balanced indeed. The problem for Hillary is that if she loses Iowa, Obama will gain more attention from the press, and his candidacy has the potencial to grow even more. NH is only a few days after Iowa, so if Obama can win in Iowa, I think there’s a pretty good chance that he can win in NH. The Republican race is more tight, after yesterday’s debate, I’m sure that there isn’t a clear “winner”, but in my opinion the big loser is Fred Thompson. What do you think?
from the Telegraph:
“One senior Labour Party source said that as a “rule of thumb” someone donating more than £500,000 is usually worth at least £50 million. In 2005, the party rejected a £500,000 donation amid fears that the donor could have been a conduit for someone else.”
Anyone know anything about this?
122-Not anymore!George Canning had 119 in power!
127: The shortest not to die in office then?
122 And Wilson was only about 5′8″.
BBC reports here that Abrahams was kicked out of the Labour Friends of Israel. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7114500.stm
104. Yes - but:
Circulation (October 2007)
Sun: 3.1 million
Mirror: 1.5 million
Mail: 2.3 million
Express: 0.8 million
TOTAL: 9.7 million
Torygraph: 0.9 million
Times: 0.6 million
Gruaniad: 0.35 million
Indy: 0.24 million
TOTAL: 2.1 million
Reality check……
128 He dies every Wednesday at noon, Ralph.
131. Ok now factor in the % of readers that actually vote.
Mike I don’t have time to read whole thread but in case not already raised would highlight:-
1. The IR Office is in Washington not Newcastle
2. An article in today’s Telegraph is relevant
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/29/do2902.xml
131 But, Carlotta, you forget…
PB.com - 50m daily!!!!!!!!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-):-):-):-)
…as Ave It would say.
131 - sorry Carlotta - the Sun, Mail have this as a very major story today, just not on the front page.
It’s ugly for Brown in both the Sun and the Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=497210&in_page_id=1770&ct=5
Mail headline “Harman on the Brink as “Mr Bean” Brown is mauled in donor scandal”
I think you need the reality check today!
128 - Melbourne, Peel and Gladstone all had shorter administrations. Could still be the shortest one-term PM not to die in office though.
81. Yes - Roger is always at his finest when he stops pretending to know something about politics and instead just lets all his many prejudices hang out. The stream of unconsciousness that results is a real treat…
131: Roger in drag, what do you think those papers have been covering this week?
anyone who likes bloodsports (i know tyson isn’t a fan) but Harriet Harman is doing Business questions in 15mins or so
Sun
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/article244723.ece
This “Mr Bean” thing is going to stick, isnt it?
Augustus Carp
Its not about the detail but about the headlines. The punters get the message “Labour are corrupt” and that is about it. They appear to be dishonest. First offence - no problem, but it’s the second offence after the “honours” scandal
With a bumpy 2008 in view on the economic front, GB will need as long a run as possible into an election to rectify the damage (or not).
So 2010 for the elction (always my favourite) looks a bit better
140 - I suspect that we are going to find Speaker Martin ruling a lot of questions out of order. He doesn’t like bloodsports where women are involved.
141. Whatever you think of the Sun, you have to admire the skill.
This comment on Ed Balls, for example: “If you can write, send him a letter telling him he’s a wally.”
120 Sorry, Andrea, I obviously need to catch up as well - I thought Stephen had more recently stood again down here, but clearly not. Matthew Penhaligon, on the other hand, is now a Restormel Councillor.
143 It’s more than the second offence, John. The Ecclestone thing still rankles with me.
145 - yep, although they’re fundamentally wrong about the influence of mums and dads.
147-PtP-Adam Boulton has a piece about Huckabee:
http://adamboulton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/11/who-is-huckabee.html
107, 112: I give you:
http://www.headsofgovernment.co.uk/images/hi-res/CarolineFlint.jpg
She’s 46 ffs!
I would…
144 - and there we are!
goebells mick preventing theresa may from even mentioning the funding scandal in front of harriet harman. I wish he’d hurry up and retire and let someone impartial take over.
151. yes very good call….pretty pathetic
#131, do you work for the Labour party? You appear to be two million out on your numbers.
lol - Mick’s tieing himself up in knots now!
Gorbals Mick must go. He is woeful.