How important is believing in God?
December 19th, 2007
Will Clegg’s statement be a vote winner or a vote loser?
If Nick Clegg had been running for the president of the US then his comments today about not believing in God could have been the defining moment of the campaign.
Just a fortnight ago in one of the Republican debates a questioner pushed forward a copy of the bible and asked whether each of the contenders believed it to be the truth. All of them, including the thrice-married Giuliani, declared themselves believers.
In the UK things are different. Everybody always remembers Alistair Campbell’s famous response when asked if Bush and Blair prayed together - “we don’t do God”. But Campbell was a party official - not the party leader.
The questioning today came in a rapid-fire interview on Radio 5 when Clegg did not have the chance to elaborate on his answer. When the question of whether he believed in God his answer was a simple “no”.
Although the proportion of believers in the UK is much smaller than the US to declare himself a non-believer in such a bald manner might not have been wise.
Mike Smithson
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Its not necessary to believe in God to be a politician but you do need to respect legitimate religious views of others.
At last a politician that tells the truth. There is no God.
I re-post what I said on previous thread.
He obviously showed signs of inexperience because, despite the format of the interview, he didn’t qualify his views.( he did so later in the interview) Hence the subsequent statement, saying he respected people’s right to believe.
The comment won’t do damage. But the lack of nous in how he dealt with the initial question must have many LDs worrying about what they’ve done.
Actually his answer was less a straight “no,” more an “er…n-n-n-no.” In other words he clearly had to think about it.
By this I don’t mean he had to think about whether or not he believed in God, but whether it would be good for his career for him to reveal as much.
don’t agree with him, but I don’t think this sort of thing will do him any harm at all. Just the sort of mini-story he needs to be raising his profile from the start with.
lots of first-day coverage…
2 - Actually no, yet another politician who lies through their teeth - there is One True God, the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Good, if he doesn’t believe then it is best to be truthful.
O/T - a possible change of political direction for a newspaper is Scotland.
http://tinyurl.com/2xsexy
the tiny url thingy is not what is seems!
…& if he can carry on if this straightforward, atypically-politician vein, he may get a lot more coverage…
* in * this vein, sorry.
Not a good idea. Like ID cards (when the majority were in favour) those who are with him won’t vote for him because of it wheras those who aren’t but floating voters could well help be swayed against him
1. Yes, but those politicians who do believe in God (or gods!) need to respect the legitimate view of atheists. Regretably, this does not always happen in the United States.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush Snr: I guess I’m pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush Snr: No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots.
In order to pledge allegiance to your country here you have declare it is “one nation under God”.
Also, mildly off topic, I read this very interesting Time piece this morning.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1694723,00.html
8 -as it is the Express papers maybe the link may be apt?
It will lose him a few votes. It may gain him others. It does indicate a more daring streak than he has shown so far.
6. Exactly, lots of Clegg news around for people to talk about. Though it probably is a mistake to say just no in such a question, I feel that most non-believers don’t really care if a politician believes in god as long as they understand the need for religion/state seperation, whereas I believe more religious types look for this in their leaders. For me it makes him more interesting, I could have sworn any leader would say yes to such a question whether they believed or not in a God.
7. Isn’t that three then?
12 - 1st sentence - i entirely agree!
(You are not LD are you??)
7. Don’t be silly, he was stating what he believes, not declaring it to be “the truth”.
Personally I wouldn’t vote for the Lib Dems no matter who they made leader but I think a lot of people, including myself, will find that kind of candor to be rather refreshing.
My reply is summed up in one of the more memorable quotations in Gone With The Wind..”Frankly, my dear..”
Full credit to Rowan Williams’ reaction though:
“It matters less to me than to know [politicians] are honest and reliable and that what beliefs they have they hold sincerely.”
14 It will gain him none and will cost him (but not a lot) see 11
17. Actually, I’m currently a Conservative supporter…
It’ll do him good. Seems like a straight answer to a straight question - and that’s what people want to see!
Thinking back it seems ludicrous that a man so clearly shaped by religion as Blair could have kept it so quiet as he did. He had his reasons, but it’s more an indictment of the public really for showing so little interest in learning about the man who was in charge of this country for so long.
18 - I was just pointing out that if I said “At last a politician that tells the truth. There is one true God……..” I would be dismissed as a looney religious fundamentalist. The only thing that I can’t stand more than them is atheist fundamentalists - saying that “There is no God, end of story.” is every bit as fascist, not to say hypocritical.
FWIW I agree with Socrates at 12 - just so long as the atheists respect the legitimate views of religious people as well.
24. Good point. “At last a politician that tells the truth” would be about right if it was confined to being glad he was telling the truth about his own beliefs but you’re right “At last a politician that tells the truth. There is one true God……..” is every bit as nutty as the example you gave.
Good on him for saying it, it makes me warm to him a little more. Better than a politician who channels his/her politics through the waters of religious belief (pace Bush, Brown & Blair) in any case.
22 - excellent.
I was worried I was commenting favourably on a LD post LOL!
Has Clegg gone yet?!
Telling the truth?
If you read the article in full he declined to answer whether he had ever taken illegal drugs (sounds like David Cameron’s response).
In answer to the question posed by the thread I suspect a vote loser.
much too early for this sort of thing to have a negative effect for him, I think. Just something that helps establish him with people in the very early days, and also maybe set a plain-speaking tone.
25. Actually, if you believe in God, saying, “At last a politician that tells the truth. There is one true God” is not nutty but perfectly legitimate.
To your mind:
(1) The statement “There is a God” is true.
(2) A politician has said “There is a God”
Therefore,
(3) A politician that has said “There is a God” is telling the truth.
All logically valid, unless of course you believe belief in statement (1) is nutty in itself. The problem with post 7 is that it accused Clegg of lying, which is usually understood to be deliberately speaking mistruth. Even if God exists, if Clegg doesn’t believe so, he wasn’t lying.
I don’t think God thinks much of Clegg, either…
Ave it new LD leader analysis:
LDs = LOL
Clegg facing total LD wipeout
Con gain Sheffield Hallam!
If I was a member of the LD’s, I would be more concerned that Nick Clegg had never heard of the song fairytale of New York. Where has he been for the last twenty years?
According to “Downing Street Says”
Asked how the Prime Minister’s morale was, the Prime Minister’s Spokeman replied that the Prime Minister’s morale was very good, as you would expect.
Well that’s nice
30.
Well there is certainly a different between “I believe there is/isn’t a God” and “There is/isn’t a God”.
In the former case I think you can say someone has or has not spoken the truth simply by comparing what they said to what they really believe. In the latter case I don’t think anyone can say it is or is not the truth. Simply because we do not know whether there is or is not a God. We can say “I believe you’re not saying the truth” but you can’t say for certain.
Semantics really, in the bigger picture I give credit for him for being honest about his beliefs and downplaying the fact that they’re going to influence his political opinions in a multicultural society.
I think it might win him a few votes, specially among students and the young, who would be more likely to vote for LD anyway, could win a very small amount of this group back from Cameron. I imagine it won’t matter to most people, specially to potential LD voters.
Re 2. Actually i think you will find there is no such thing as the Liberal democrats. I invented them as a joke on a quiet thursday when not much else was happening.
Sadly for Nick Clegg his many languages do not include the “language of heaven”.
Well, I would rather he be honest about it than not, and at least be respectful for people of faith.
I would think he was bonkers if he was a biblical literalist though.
This is the first thing that Clegg has done in quite a while that has impressed me. It’s a good straight answer defining his belief. Had he come out with this sort of thing earlier he might have won by a bit more (I know there’s a non-conformist tradition in the Liberals, but I suspect the sceptics would more than balance any votes lost, especially after the prominency of Blair’s faith during his premiership).
If it was quick-fire questions, I don’t blame him for taking a moment to answer. That’s not the sort of question we’re used to on this side of the Atlantic and would be likely to throw many politicians for a moment.
I doubt it will make any difference in the bigger picture, not least (again, in contrast to the States), because no other party will make anything of it.
re several in last thread. Having been brought up in Llandudno, it’s a lovely town and I’ll be back there next week, but I couldn’t live there again - too small.
back to the thread it won’t make any bit of difference - why should it, he’s a politician not a clergyman?
I wonder which party the psalmist was thinking of: “They talk of vanity every one with his neighbour : they do but flatter with their lips, and dissemble in their double heart.”
I wonder if he believes in the tooth fairy?
All belief is a deliberate suspension of rationality.
That’s blown his chances of getting his kids into a decent school
33 That’s an extraordianary admission, considering Nick Clegg and Shane McGowan attended the same School.
30 Not really. If I said, “Finally a politican who speaks the truth - the new EU treaty is almost exactly the same as the constitution”, I would not be considered nutty. I am simply saying what I consider to be true based on the evidence I have seen. We don’t have to precede the rest of our opinions with “I believe” or “In my opinion”. Why do we need to be so squeamish about our religious views?
Politician unable to avoid telling the truth shock.
Personally I think amongst those who might possibly vote LibDem this will be a net vote gainer… though you could argue that the secular voter is already one of our stronger suits.
45 - you are surely joking…
but Shane MacGowan was born in Tunbridge Wells (fact!)
Clegg has certainly gone up in my estimation, not so much for what he believes but for having the cojones to come straight out and say it.
In the States of course, such an admission would be political suicide. It would be nice to think we’re a litle bit more relaxed about such matters around here.
I’d love to know how many MPs really believe and how many pretend to. Has anyone ever done any research on it? I’m presuming the number of real believers is actually pretty small anyway.
Mike on your ‘Observer’ topic, until he pays up might it not be possible to create a shortcut which modifies ‘Observer’ on his postings to ‘utter rancour’ pronounced in the Hillhead Jenkins fashion?
48 Absolutely not, SBS. Both went to Westminster. Wouldn’t be that many years between them either.
And what’s so surprising about the Tunbridge Wells thing? They all look like that down that way. You never met Benedict White?
Speaking as a (sort-of) believer, I am glad Clegg did this, and I don’t think it will affect him negatively.
Much as I find atheism laughable, I would hate for us to become like America, where faith is compulsory in politicos, forcing obvious non-believers (like Hilary) to tell whoppers.
That said, I don’t think Clegg’s admission will benefit him either. It’s not just the Labour party that doesn’t “do” God, the British people don’t “do” God - they find overt expressions of belief, or disbelief, vaguely embarrassing and certainly adolescent. Put it another way, they heap quiet derision on Rowan Williams AND Richard Dawkins.
It’s one of the things I like about Britain. We don’t make windows into men’s souls.
Couldn’t care less and not impressed either.
Just one cheer for saying it today. IMO he would have lost if he’d said it a few weeks back… If honesty is such a virtue I wonder why Clegg has not commented on his drug use.
Re 31, Rod Crosby “I don’t think God thinks much of Clegg, either…”
God and I are of one mind on that one
2.
Hmmm- although you and me are kindred spirits here- I HOPE he isn’t saying this just to get the Athiest vote!
54 You don’t know much about the LibDems.
52 - I grew up in Maidstone so I know the area very well. Iain Dale lives in Tunbridge Wells; he does not look so like Shane MacGowan.
I wanted Huhne to win, but as a christian I admire his candour on the issue which I don’t think will do him much harm.
Having admitted his unbelief though I wish he’d gone the whole hog and said what drugs he had taken in the past, I’m sick of the hypocrisy of a political class supporting the futile war on drugs when half of them have taken illegal substances themselves in their youth, and the next political generation will no doubt continue the “Do as I say not as I do” policy.
And what most people who ‘dont do god’ fail to notice that their sense of morality is probably broadly christian based or informed even if they don’t admit it.
52 - you are right! MacGowan went there on a music scholarship, but was later explelled. He is 50 on Xmas day, so would have been there with Huhne, but not Clegg.
53. While the situation here is clearly preferable to the US, I find it silly that we should avoid speaking about the topic. If God and the afterlife exists, it is the most important truth in the universe. If it they don’t, then its been one of the most monumental falsehoods to affect civilisation. As long as it’s kept separate from politics, why should we not debate it? Let Dawkins and Williams have it out I say!
and Dido and Chris Huhne…
57 Ahem to that!!
Well we’ll never know for sure, but then again we’re only talking about 250ish net switchers.
I don’t think it is somehow wrong to say that knowing that a candidate doesn’t believe in a God would make one less likely to vote for that candidate (although anything beyond that is religious bigotry)- religious faith and values are important (though I’m not a regular churchgoer).
However, I don’t think that the people who are considering voting Liberal are people for whom a candidate’s faith is important.
60. That’s quite the claim. What about our moral system comes distinctly from Christianity as opposed to all the other moral systems out there?
Maybe Iain Dale just lost because the members took a second look at his political record?
Anyone notice that Clegg’s voice rises in all the wrong places when he’s giving speeches?
Do you think the Tories will put out leaflets in Cornwall and the West Coast of Scotland saying the LDs are Godless?
66 - More Judaism isn’t it? Ten Commandments and all that?
61 Indeed I am right, SBS!
And if I were you, I’d have a closer look at Ian Dale next time you see him down the pub in Tunbridge.
sorry, the dido & chris huhne reference was about other people who also went to the same school.
8
Marcia - it’s a shame you can’t retain the above tiny url as you can a car registration mark, it would certainly be worth serious money!
69. But are the Ten Commandments even part of our moral code? I reckon only abour four or five of them would be endorsed by the majority in modern Britain. And those five are part of a general moral agreement between most belief systems.
Fantastic! PB.com is attempting to make sense of world religion and its competing moral frameworks… What the world hasn’t resolved in millenia PB.com is going to have fixed before Mike puts a new thread up at 5am.
Can’t wait. We’ll all be “Puntists” living in peace from here on, settling moral issues on betfair.
BTW Is this just a classic LD tactic to occupy the middle ground between the Tory Devils and the opposite numbers in govt?
2. Oh yes there is (Panto time) and he goes by the name Ruby Walsh.
68 If anything its the Liberals who have form on the leaflets.
See this extract from Wikipedia sourcing Michael Crick’s book on Militant from the 1980s
” The Labour Party’s opponents in Liverpool made the most of the far-left Militant basis of the policies of the Liverpool Labour Party. In the Vauxhall ward, a Liberal leaflet proclaimed “Why no Catholic can vote Labour on Thursday” and carried a picture of the Pope. It claimed “Labour’s Militants not only want to close our schools but would ban religion as well.”.
Vauxhall/Scottie Road was a historically staunchly Irish Catholic part of inner city Liverpool.
66. Its just how it is. It wasnt as if the society of atheists created some kind of moral code.
This won’t do him any harm in Sheffield Hallam. We do, however, have constituencies where belief in (the relevant) God helps garner many votes: Birmingham now has a few and Leicester must have a couple.
6,9,10 etc. Putney Romance - welcome near namesake. Oh dear, not more confusion!
70 - “have a closer look at Ian Dale next time you see him down the pub in Tunbridge.”
do you mean Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells. The places are very different - and about 8 miles apart. Apparently the good people of TW changed the spelling of their town in the 19th century to avoid confusion with the rather more scummy Tonbridge. And by changing the spelling, they have created confusion ever since.
76 - is that the Liberals, who still exist in Liverpool, or the LDs?
To be fair I don’t think our little betting community is likely to be overrepresented by members of the God squad.
I’d be concerned though if Clegg was a militant atheist as much as if he were a Catholic fundamentalist. I am perfectly respectful of other peoples religions as long as they don’t force them on me. That also applies to Atheists or Sceptics like myself forcing our views on others.
81 SBS I would assume that it refers to the predecessors of the LibDems as it was in the mid 80s. The non LD Liberals are based in West Derby, which is a very different part of the city.
60 Yokel. Why does morality have to be based on religious faith? People have been tortured, burned at the stake and slaughtered in their millions in the name of religion, yet you claim non believers inherit their morality (which is generally opposed to such atrocities) from one of these religions.
Religion’s last ditch stand is its claim that it is the source of morality, and it simply isn’t true.
Well done Nick Clegg. Your honesty and openness will help others, of any party, to be equally honest.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Nick Clegg coming out on this issue, I feel sure that it will result in net damage to him and his party. Irrespective of people’s adherence to a particular religon in this country, it is surely the case that a large majority have a belief in their own particular God.
Oops, there goes his honeymoon period.
I might be the only person on here who has direct experience of this
In 2003, when I was Mayor, I announced I was an atheist and wouldn’t have a chaplain.
Cue a few articles in the press (including some of the national religious papers!), and a handful of vituperative letters from constituents. Cue also support from most of the clergy in Worthing, and two local bishops, and at the next election in 2004 - a lot more support for me, with people on the doorstep specifically mentioning the religion issue as a reason for voting for me, including my successor’s mayoral chaplain!
So, I think Clegg - and we LibDems - will be all right
77. Well actually the Enlightenment was a period of many non-Christian (deist and atheist) writers justifying the basis for morality, leading to a change in societal values. Now we believe in religious tolerance and think little of working on the Sabbath. Even the bits of Christian society we retained were those that existed before Christianity.
60 - it can be dangerous for an atheist politician to say they accept Christian values. The Phalangists in Lebanon in the late 1980s, and the Serb and Croat armies in Bosnia in the 1990s probably “believed in Christian values” too.
There goes the muslim vote then. And the Irish and Poles to boot.
Still, plenty left to pick from.
89 - Poles can’t actually vote in GEs.
87. Ok lets take the average man in the street, never goes to church.
Give him a what are your morals closest to question. The answer will be christianity.
Whether its enlightenment or anything else, its what they perceive that really matters, not the actual history and coming from Northern Ireland I can vouch for that.
91 - any survey data to prove your point?
If God had a blog what would he be writing?
“19 Dec 2007 -
Son’s birthday coming up, hasn’t given me a clue as to what he’d like, might get him a hamer and some nails as a joke. Nearly finished ‘The Da Vinci Code’, got another email off that bloke Dawkins, I think he’s stalking me.”
BTW - Can we have a referendum on the ten commandments? One at a time mind, none of this all or nothing malarky…..
80 Tonbridge is far older than the C18 upstart that is known as Tunbridge Wells
Re 52, Peter the Punter “And what’s so surprising about the Tunbridge Wells thing? They all look like that down that way. You never met Benedict White?”
What is that supposed to mean?
93 Yawn
Back to politics. The consensus before yesterday was Huhne takes votes off Labour. Clegg off Tories. Now lets have predictions which will it be. Or will it be both
93 - At the very least he should have a decent myspace page, I just checked and it says he’s got zero friends -
http://tinyurl.com/2rmkoe
What sort of deity has zero friends I ask you?
93 - …and a merry Christmas to you too…..
94 - indeed it is. And it has a castle and fine public school. But definitely scummier than Tunbridge Wells.
98 - Whoops, should have been replying to 96.
85. Given a forced choice in questioning about 66% believe in God to 30% that don’t. When given options it breaks down to 35% believers, 35% agnostics, and 17% atheists. I imagine the latter two groups (along with some of the first) would respect Clegg for his statement but not care particularly, while a minority of the first group would care. The mildly positive impression of the majority will probably make up for a strongly negative impression of a small minority (who probably wouldn’t vote LD anyway).
91. With all respect, you’ve completely changed your argument. You originally said the morality of the irreligious was “Christian based” in actuality even if they didn’t admit it. Now you’re saying the bulk of people would admit their morality is Christian-based even if it isn’t in actuality!
Jonathan “57 Ahem to that!!
”
Now, play nicely with the Lib Dems, you know how they don’t like being mocked
96 - Con takes votes off everyone!
SBS goes Con!!!
Even Benedict has a blog, IIRC…..
84. Ah here we go the religion has murdered millions line. Religion doesnt murder anyone but ignoring that, lets take the point.
People with no particular religous affiltion have murdered millions.
Religion has also provided the base motivation for people to do a massive amount of good actions that has saved millions of lives, helped millions of lives.
Its a zero sum game. What gets on my goat is that the latter is ignored as people seem to have a habit of focussing on the former…..a prejudice all in itself.
Before anyone asks I do not subscribe to a religion or a section therin. The point is thar religion gets this bad rap when in fact it has its good side as well for millions of people every damn day. Religion provides a source of much comfort support and strength. It can help motivate people to do the right thing by their fellow man as much it can help motivate people to do bad bad things to their fellow man.
Those who knock religions as a concept are as much a part of their own prejudiced club as those who subscribe to religions or sects therein.
Religion isnt a problem, nor is no religion, prejudice is the problem and the non subscribers are often just as prejudiced in their own way as the subscribers.
103 Con gain Torfaen Ave it..
98 Don’t tajke offence so quickly
101. I havent changed my argument, in fact you’ve just added to it with the 60 odd perecent believe in a god of some kind survey. By the very fact that they believe in a god they probably influenced by it.
Considering the predominate god for people in this country is probably the christian one then its a logical step that their own sense of right and wtrong is influenced by that god.
95 Benedict - I was just commenting on the passing resemblance between yourself and that extremely good-looking lead singer of The Pogues.
You are not perhaps in some way related?
“98 Don’t tajke offence so quickly ”
I think I’ve missed your point then :confused: .
According to the BBC website Nick Clegg and his wife intend to bring up their children as Catholics.
I think it says Clegg doesn’t mind his wife bringing them up as catholics, not that he would at all.
Belief in God is an interesting conundrum. I sort of believe, but I dont go to church regularly (if at all), but I like to know its there, its sort of comforting. Sadly I suspect that zero belief will inevitably be a hindrance, but how much of a hindrance is open to conjecture. Conversely, one would not want a religious zealot in charge either, that would be just as bad IMHO. On balance I think its a slight though important negative.
110. Really? Well there ya go now, if true.
108. Thats an insult….that Uber Plastic Paddy McGowan needs a slap.
Mind you if it upsets the odds and makes No1 or wins the w/o X Factor (now withdrawn by PP’s I notice) betting market race, I’ll be quids in.
111. Which bears the question, why wouldnt he mind considering this is a religion founded on a god, that Clegg doesnt believe in?
Wouldnt be because it provides some kind of useful moral foundation would it?
Or maybe its just the communion dresses and suits….
103 - “SBS goes Con!!! ” - over my dead body!
115 LOL
107. I would disagree that the “predominate god for people in this country is probably the christian one”. I reckon it’s probably at best even amounts between the Christian god and a rather vague deist type of belief. Agnostics generally aren’t agnostic over God as described by one particular religion, but over a generic supreme being/architect/life force. I bet you a far smaller number believe in the Jewish Yahweh, or the Christian trinity. That would make the majority of this country non-Christian in their beliefs. Besides, my argument wasn’t that our society drew its morality from a non-Christian belief - just that it came from a general belief in treating others fairly that’s shared between most belief systems: Greco-Roman, Christian, Enlightenment, Buddhist, etc etc
114 - The biggest appeal of religion to me is the architecture and the music. I feel so sorry for Roman Catholics. I know it’s not their fault, but most of their churches in England are so… horrid!
107. Is it possible that the christian religion is a reflection of commonly held morality? i.e. most cultures have principles like “thou shalt not kill”
PS. I agree with every word of 105. It seems silly when people argue for a cost-benefit analysis of religion. We should believe or disbelieve in it because of whether it’s true or not, not how much control or instability it cause for society.
O/T Mike - still no news from “The Observer”? I ask this more in hope for you than any expectation, but is it just possible that he/she has been trying to email you and I recall you have very recently changed you email address?
We’re pretty good at sleuthing on here, witness the albeit unsolved as yet Jack W mystery. I suggest a careful review of all his/her postings on here, might yield up a few useful clues.
Re 108, Peter the punter “95 Benedict - I was just commenting on the passing resemblance between yourself and that extremely good-looking lead singer of The Pogues.
You are not perhaps in some way related? ”
Not that I know of!
I wonder what pbCOM’s man of the year JackW would think?
Personally I think it is one of the most fraudelent, duplicitous, disengenuous, downright dispicable acts to feign belief in something as fundamentally important as christianity to cultivate an image in politics. Takes the piss out of everyone, christians and non believers. Period.
Queue Cameron and family attending church in Chadlington, Oxfordshire after many years never going. Perhaps the fact he is Tory leader may heave influenced this? If Cameron believes, fine. If he doesn’t, as morally corrupt as snorting coke as some of our politicians have allegedly done, corrupt politics or anything else I can think of.
Well done Clegg for taking religion out of politics.
121- ah Benedict- talking of welching from bets……
119. Yes, that’s absolutely what I’m saying. The bulk of modern morality has existed across most cultures throughout history, along with an added sprinkling of Enlightenment thinking. Even Jesus’ supposedly unprecedented “turn the other cheek” was articulated by, ahem, Socrates three centuries earlier.
118: Probably so, but religion provided a structure for it, pieces of paper, rules and so on and its what people often associate with instinctively. Which came first actually doesnt matter.
Imposing pure logic on religion and beliefs is a waste of time because its not about logic. Whether people’s understanding of the origins of their morality is misplaced, again doesnt matter. What matters is that they believe what they believe.
If it doesnt make them do any harm to others then they shouldnt be poo poohed and if they express their views they shouldnt be pooh poohed on it either.
Bad people will always find an excuse, a cover to do bad things, be it religion or a lack of.
Re 117, SBS “114 - The biggest appeal of religion to me is the architecture and the music. I feel so sorry for Roman Catholics. I know it’s not their fault, but most of their churches in England are so… horrid!”
Yes, you gits nicked our good ones!
But he is pro europe so for me he might as well come out and say he is a devil worshiper.
Re 123,Tyson, Are you going to the party?
If so, I will see you there.
127. indeed, i think voters will care a great deal more about his stances on political issues
re 120. Thanks for your concern. Alas I have heard nothing from the Observer either by phone or on any of my email acounts.
I’ve now read through every post he has made and I have little doubt that he was attached to the Clegg campaign in some way.
I am furious but there is little I can do.
Mike Smithson
So, Clegg doesn’t believe in God.
As Ave It would say: “Con gain Heaven”.
Don’t be too hard on him - think of how embarrassed he will feel when he comes face-to-face with something that he doesn’t believe exists.
126 - yes, but I believe you have nicked our hymns.
Re 132, SBS “126 - yes, but I believe you have nicked our hymns.”
No we haven’t, we are merely subjecting them to rigorous testing!
How dare you!
85 It’s a bit like the polling adjustment for shy Tories isn’t it? When asked a (declining) majority of Britons say they are Christian because it is the answer that is expected. How many of them do anything about it or even know what it means? Stand outside a few churches and do a bit of counting and you will soon learn the answer.
I would be very surprised if there were a majority of Britons who followed any religion at all in a meaningful way, and amazed if there were not an absolutely stonking majority who had no interest whatever in a politicians religious beliefs or otherwise.
117 “The biggest appeal of religion to me is the architecture and the music. I feel so sorry for Roman Catholics. I know it’s not their fault, but most of their churches in England are so… horrid!”
Henry VIII burnt down the Catholic Abbies and gave all the Churches to the Church of England.
Now we have enlightened Aethiest Politicians like Nick Clegg representing enlightened people. Those old Catholic Churches, can be sold off to property developers for cold hard cash!!
The Shooping Center is the new church. The CoE doesnt need them anymore.
It warms the heart of an old Labourite like me…
130 Mike
Naturally I’m sympathetic but also a little puzzeld. Did you not have an email address for him which might help track him down?
If you are sure he was part of the Clegg Team, maybe a letter to Clegg? Or Lord Rennard? They surely would help if they could.
Clegg’s non-belief probably won’t matter greatly either way to most exiting LibDems and may actually be welcomed by a good few members, as we have seen here. I just don’t see this gaining the party many votes and from its current low level of support, that could be a problem. I guess we’ll know in about 10 days’ time when the first post election polls emerge.
In retrospect, it’s surprising that this didn’t come out earlier, at the hustings or during the umpteen interviews he gave during the campaign.
Clegg an atheist, he’s got my vote! For too long we atheists have had to put up with all that mumbo jumbo from politicians of all parties playing to the, ‘Stars on Sunday’ crowd. Well done Nick!
126. ‘Yes, you gits nicked our good ones!’
serves you right for conspiring against the Crown.
I actually personally believe that no one actually believes in god. The concept would be just too freaky- an omnipotent, all seeing, all knowing being controlling the universe. Seeing that the vast majority of us engage in the strangest of acts at the best of times….
But that said the Radio 4 “Thoughts for the day” always make the most relevant observations, far better than any politicians. I always feel great affection to any religious priest, whatever religion. They always seem to be just very nice, and interesting people.
I went to a hustings in the 1992 GE organised by local churches. It was the only hustings.
A question came up “Are you a Christian?”
Tory (the excellent Andrew Rowe) - “Yes, I am a Christian and I attend church every week.”
LD - “No, I am an atheist, but I believe in Christian values.”
Lab - “I was brought up to go to church but I don’t have time to these days.”
Two of these deserve respect; one does not.
OT - Can any of our American experts help with a query relating to the Iowa Democratic Caucuses? Are the percentage results announced afterwards in terms of final vote counts for each candidate, or are they expressed as percentages of delegates to the state convention?
I ask as I am thinking about putting up a market relating to Clinton’s performance for Ladbrokes and obviously want to make sure there is no ambiguity when people are having a punt.
I’ll probably put up a Huckerbee market too, but if I am correct, the GOP situation is straightforward in that respect.
138. For the less superannuated among this site’s many posters, ‘Stars on Sunday’ was axed in 1979.
141-SBS- never took you for being quite so pompous.
Only a psychopath would disagree with christian values? Surely.
136 PtP - Does having someone’s email address really help in such cases? It’s possible to open a Hotmail or Yahoo address in about 2 minutes flat, whilst, to the outside world, preserving total anonymity.
140
But that said the Radio 4 “Thoughts for the day” always make the most relevant observations, far better than any politicians. I always feel great affection to any religious priest, whatever religion. They always seem to be just very nice, and interesting people.
What! even the pedos?
Re 139, Henry Tudor “serves you right for conspiring against the Crown.”
I’ll take no lectures from a line of bastards who usurped the throne!
Re 140, Tyson “But that said the Radio 4 “Thoughts for the day” always make the most relevant observations, far better than any politicians. I always feel great affection to any religious priest, whatever religion. They always seem to be just very nice, and interesting people.”
Yes they mostly are. Yes I believe in God also.
Are you going to be at the party?
Re 141, SBS, You have commented on our hymn testing program
“Two of these deserve respect; one does not.”
In your view, which ones?
145. Depends how you define Christian values I guess. I’d agree with modern Anglican values whereas I’d disagree with militant Evangelical values in the US. They both take their beliefs from the same book, albeit different parts. Who is to say what’s the correct interpretation?
145. Not really depending on the hotmail for example. It is possible to glean some information via the web sometimes that may help you identify someone.
143. They are announced as the number of delegates to the state (not national!) convention. Media outlets will often convert this to percentages, but that’s not how they are announced.
150. Thanks Socrates. I hope to have some prices up tomorrow.
146- coldstone- as someone who has been familiar with enforcing some aspects of child protection paedophiles inhabit all walks of life.I dare say that some of our politicians are sexually obsessed with children, as too business leaders, rock stars, even some (hopefully not many) pbCOMers.
I think religion has been unduly discredited by the stigma of paedophilia. You are too intelligent to join this braying mob.
What! even the pedos?
foot fetishists might have interesting opinions.
Clegg may have made a mistake here. His ‘positive’ is that he is supposed to be a youthful, clean-cut family man, very much in the Cameron mould.
But won’t his atheism hamper the cultivation of such an image? If you add his Euro-fanaticism and apparent ultra-liberal attitudes on immigration then all of a sudden you have a persona that can be portrayed as slightly ‘foreign’, an elitist yuppie out of touch with the instincts of ordinary people.
144 - I was not the bloody LD candidate! I was in the audience.
What wonderful news. As a Huhne voter, this has made me a little more easy with the defeat. Softened the blow a little.
Think it’s about time politicians were a little more honest with their religious views.
147 - I think the Labour response was a total fudge to a mainly church attending audience at the hustings. Nul points!
Christianity is only a tarted up version of stoicism. If only Western civilization had stuck with the Hellenic tradition and not been hijacked by Christianity with its narrrow mindedness and bigotry, we’d have been on the Moon by the 12th century.
I had that Emperor Julian in the back of the cab once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
153. I’m sure there are disproportionate numbers of paedophiles in the priesthood, as there will be in any profession that is put in a position of trust with access to children. This isn’t because of anything wrong with the profession, just that paedophiles will cynically go after such positions. It thus does not cast a bad light on the rest of the priesthood, but the church administration for not doing more to stop it.
130. Perhaps Observer is spending a few days in hospital? Or gone on holiday for a week or three? Or having a minor temporary cash-flow problem? Or dealing with something urgent at work or in his family? Without knowing the details, I still think you are being a bit impatient in expecting payment within just a day or half a day. If you still haven’t heard from him in two weeks’ time, then it would be more fair to start getting furious.
Tyson! ARE YOU GOING TO THE PB PARTY??
I think there are several party leaders who only became religious when they rose to prominence. Maggie was one, Ashdown another, Major?
Looking at our PMs, you don’t get a lot of C of E…
Brown - Presby
Blair - quasi-Roman Catholic
Major - C of E?
Thatcher - Methodist
Callaghan - Baptist
Wilson - Congregationalist
162 I think you’ll find Major was MCC not CofE
152
You may be right, but there are too many cases of Church higher ups protecting priests, for my liking.
My wife, (a Catholic) attended the church in Godalming, where the priest had a long record of sexual abuse against children, and was protected by the present Cardinal.
159. That’s not fair. It also has its fair share of inheritance from radical Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism and the cult of Osiris.
Re 157, SBS “147 - I think the Labour response was a total fudge to a mainly church attending audience at the hustings. Nul points!”
Well, he is effectively saying “I was a Christian, now I can’t be arsed”
It is honest, no?
162
Thatcher was a Methodist, but became CofE when she married.
136 If the “Observer” is active within the LibDem party, especially in terms of writing material, then possibly forwarding his posts to a senior party official could prove helpful.
There are, for instance, perhaps half a dozen posters on here whom one can recognise from 100 paces, not nesessarily from what they say, but more how they say it. Best not to mention names, but they and others probably recognise who they are!
Re 163, Jonathan “162 I think you’ll find Major was MCC not CofE”
Quite right, and has been for decades. If that is not religious I don’t know what is
Re 164, Coldstone “My wife, (a Catholic) attended the church in Godalming, where the priest had a long record of sexual abuse against children, and was protected by the present Cardinal.”
Is Godalming in the diocese of Arundel and Brighton?
I am an atheist most of the time, but I sometimes believe in a sort-of Schrödinger’s God which comes into existence only when I sing the national anthem (this is because I am a staunch monarchist (in case you’re wondering, I don’t consider this to be inconsistent with Marxism-With-Loony-Characteristics (because this combination is based on the Juche principles of national self-determination and adaptation to the historical and cultural conditions of each country’s position))).
105. Religious phraseology is usually used by politicians (if at all) as a cover (usually unconsciously so) for the class-based interests of those in power at the time.
161 when is it??!
170
I believe so, the priest in question was packed off to run the chapel