How damaging is Conway to Cameron?
January 28th, 2008
Will there be few tears shed for David Davis’s rounder-upper?
This lunchtime’s news that Tory MP Derek Conway faces a 10-day Commons suspension after the standards watchdog said he paid his son too much from parliamentary allowances. Freddie Conway, received a salary as a researcher while he was studying at Newcastle University.
The only problem was, according to the report “.. no records appear to exist of either actual work that Freddie did for his father, or of the work he was required to undertake”.
So while all the focus has been on Labour, Peter Hain and the donations issues Conway has given Labour a rod to beat the Tories with. Not good particularly at this time.
We last discussed Derek Conway during the Tory leadership battle in October 2005 when his job was to try to ensure that those MPs who had gone public in their support for David Davis stuck with their decision.
At the time I wrote: “He (Conway) built a fearsome reputation as a whip for the final three years of the 1992-1997 Tory government stopping a seepage of votes following the Maastricht treaty. Now his style of “charm” is at the disposal of David Davis and all those on the list are going to be under enormous pressure to stick by their man. Their phones are not going to stop ringing until the first ballot is over.”
At the time someone who had experienced Conway first hand called me to say how fearsome he was and suggested that all those had had gone public for Davis would stick with him. It didn’t quite work out that way but most stayed on board.
Mike Smithson
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The tories haven’t been using Hain too much to beat Brown with, and they haven’t said a word on Johnson. It all depends really, Brown has shown himself to be tactically inept so far, if he tries to make a big thing out of Conway and try to tar the tories as all the same he’ll end up opening another cupboard packed with labour skeletons.
I see the Telegraph editorial is going for Obama:
http://tinyurl.com/2×884t
Interesting.
It seems to me that Obama is a conceptual leap - he can’t be judged like other politicians. Put it another way: you either “get” him, and the hope he represents, or you don’t.
The Telegraph, it seems, gets him. So does Cameron. The Tories campaigning for Hillary are like the French, always fighting the last war.
Neopotism is only kin deep.
I thought this employing of spouses/children as secretaries/researchers by MP’s was a widespread wangle?
Er… a truly bizarre url problem there. Audie Murphy?
Try again! -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/01/28/dl2801.xml
4, I think you’re missing the point. It’s quite common for MPs to employ family members - the problem in this particular case is that it appears Mr Conway’s son hasn’t actually done any work.
IF that is what has happened, Conway has deliberately misappropriated taxpayers money which was meant to help MPs deal with their constituents casework for his own family’s gain. That is much more serious than the Hain or Johnson affairs, in which no taxpayers money was involved and neither gained personally.
4. The select use of a maiden name may help disguise use of a spouse or offspring as ‘researcher’ or ’secretary’.
I think the wording was something like “at best a misuse of the allowance and at worst misappropriation of public money”. If the latter then Conway should not be allowed to stand again as a Conservative.
I heard a report on Radio4 about what he’s been upto. We all pull the stroke in a position of advantage, such as employing family, but this is a joke. If it was his own money, fine, but it isn’t, it’s yours and mine and no one was working for the wage.
He needs a good, slap, a real one not the wrist slap he woill get according to Westminster rules.
If indeeed, his son did nothing for the money, then I think he’s lucky to have just got a 10 day suspension.
8 OK, if people are going to take that approach, please tell me….who is going to win the impending Bexley Sidcup By Election? Maybe Rik W could be the Conservative candidate, what with it being Ted Heath’s old constituency….
Conway should be out on his ear at the next election (if not sooner). It will be interesting to see how Cameron deals with this.
However to suggest it is “much more serious” than Hain/Johnson (6) is disingenuous at best - the only reason neither of them “gained personally” is because they were unable to use their donations to beat the might electoral machine of HH. And in both of these cases it seems Cabinet ministers bent (or broke) the laws their own party had brought in as part of an effort to restore trust in politics.
Someone once described Conway to me as ‘possessed of few friends and no talent’ I think he will have fewer of the former after this. Frankly I am not surprised at this, Conway always looks like a throwback and frankly he should have the whip withdrawn.
11. For clarification, he should not be allowed to stand at the General Election.
11 - Augustus, Augustus
I wonder if Rik is lurking out there. Didn’t he promise to return under a pseudonym?
As for Conway, wasn’t he also the leading plotter against IDS? So I’d guess he has few friends on either wing of the party. He should be sent packing.
He should have the Whip removed and made to resign as a MP. Cameron could show some decision and contrast with Brown indecision.
Won’t happen though.
Why has Conway still got his job?
Abuse on this scale and he gets a 10 day suspension,that’s taking the piss,and they wonder by joe public is so dissilussioned with politicians.
…The complaint against Mr Conway was brought by Michael Barnbrook, a retired policeman who stood against him as a candidate for the UK Independence Party, and is now a member of the British National Party.
He told the BBC: “I don’t get any personal joy from it. He’s my local MP - he’s there to work on my behalf. It’s my money he’s working with and he should be using it properly.
“If he isn’t and he’s been suspended, or the recommendation is he’s suspended, so be it.”
Good to see Britain’s only Patriotic Party keeping the ‘Westminster Hogs’ honest.
16. He got rid of that defence spokesman after he said some rascist comments quick sharpish, may do the same to Conway. He may get the Mr Burns down the trapdoor treatment soon.
18 Is he related to Richard Barnbrook?
5: Those tinyurls break when when you get one with a digit, followed by an “x”, followed by another digit. Wordpress thinks you’re doing maths, and turns the “x” into a multiplication sign. If that happens, you can just make a new tinyurl, but you have to feed tinyurl.com a slightly different one to the one it had before so it doesn’t just give you the same tinyurl again. To do that, if the URL already has a “?” in it, add a “&” on the end. If it doesn’t, add a “?”.
19
Yes,but the defence spokesman was snapped up by Gordo!
22. I doubt Gordo would want Conway.
Gosh a poor MP cannot even give his hard up student some of his allocated cash (presumably mostly spent at the student bar)- what is the world coming to? Are there any perks left for MP’s?
If anyone should see Lord Rennard, please tell him that the trains to Sidcup leave Charing Cross at 2 mins and 32 mins past the hour. Must be worth sending an office boy down on a cheap day return to look for Campaign HQ office space.
Has been drowned out in the din around the Kennedy endorsements (and apologies if this was noted in previous thread) but Obama was also endorsed yesterday by Kathleen Sibelius, Dem Governor of Kansas (and my tip for Vice Presidential candidate - though Gov. Napolitano of Arizona may get on the ticket to neutralise the hispanic problem Obama clearly has…though if McCain wins the nomination not sure whether it puts Arizona in play) - another red state Democrat.
Even more significantly given that problem he was also endorsed by the highest-ranking latino Congressman, Xavier Bercerra of California.
The HoC Committe report on Derek Conway
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmstnprv/280/280.pdf
Cameron should certainly speak out forcefully against Conway’s behaviour, and take some meaningful party action. I’m unclear why he’s not in the frame for conspiracy to defraud.
This is a worse case than the Hain case but a much less senior figure is involved. I doubt many votes changed over Hain, and I very much doubt any will change over Conway.
Always nice to see one of the guilty men of Maastricht get their comeuppance.
After reading about what he did I think Cameron will come down hard on him, it’ll be the only way to differentiate himself from dithering gordon.
Paddy Power now 11/10 on McCain in Florida.
It does give Labour a stick to beat Cameron with, unless Cameron acts decisively.
If I’d spent £40k of company money in a way that was against the rules, I’d need a new job.
Siebelius hasn’t officially endorsed but will do tomorrow. Again though I would caution against reading too much into the endorsements. They provide helpful media and funding boosts but don’t necessarily change minds. In particular I’m skeptical a congressmen, however high-ranking, will have much of an impact on the Hispanic vote.
21. Thankyou. I actually think I understand what you are saying, which is amazing given my techno-idiocy.
Slightly Off-Topic, I had a Dental Gordon Brown today - i.e. Laser Tooth Whitening (the treatment in Bangkok is a third of the price of London).
I can report that it’s slightly painful, and quite effective - though I don’t, as I once hoped, look like my orthodontic guru Chuck Norris (whose teeth when backing Mike Huckabeee were so white they made the Colgate family look like Arsene Wenger).
The only problem is that you can’t drink tea, coffee, beer and red wine for A WEEK afterwards (curries are likewise verboten). Chance of staining apparently.
So I am reduced to gin and tonic, the intoxicant qualities of which are harder to judge than a bottle of Jacobs Creek.
Ergo. If my posts appear even more squiffy than usual, for the next few days - this is why. I crave your indulgence.
30 Cuddles, would you try to define “hard”? As Conway is an elected MP, the Parliamentary Party has little sway over him, other than encouraging his de-selection at the next General Election.
I reckon that Cameron would like to be tough here - but doesn’t have any way of doing so.
32. I get the feeling some labour toadies will be being loaded up with questions for PMQ’s about how the tories are so corrupt, and mean and like drowning kittens etc etc
In answer to the question ‘how damaging is this to Cameron’ the answer is not at all. But neither in my opinion is Hain or Johnson to Brown. I suspect the kicking given to Alan Johnson by Alan Duncan might be off putting to the public. Particularly as this has now become a game for any number of players.
The only effect might be to silence Chris Grayling which could have a marginally beneficial effect on Tory fortunes but that’s all.
35. He’ll try and get him de-selected, have him shouted at a bit behind the scenes etc, show his dissaproval in public. In the dn he can’t do much besides that, different from Hain who remained a minister throughout his problems.
37. You really don’t seem to be able to understand that the public at large might not see everything through the same prejudice-distorted prism as yourself, do you Roger?
Hmm dangerous to have been part of the DD campaign isn’t it.
Patrick Mercer: stitched up by Cameron-friendly journo then knifed by Cameron
David Willets: Sent out with new policy devised by Cameron, then knifed by Cameron
Derek Conwy: Stitched up by mysteriously well-informed Cameron-friendly journo, soon to be be knifed by Cameron
Iain Dale: Repeatedly and publicly humiliated by CCO
That is 4 of the 7 who ran the campaign. Wonder if DD is starting to get a bit worried.
37. What kicking by alan duncan? Only interviews I’ve seen him give about johnson in the last few days have said very little about Johnson, and instead tried to continue the incompetance and dithering line of attack.
34- seanT- what was that Carly Simon song, ah yes, “You’re so vain.”
As my hero Jim Royle would say “teeth whitening my arse”
The Johnson business is so esoteric, its difficult to get a handle on it!
Conway, highlights the whole of this, ‘Employ you family scam’ its time that nonsense was put to rest. If MP’s need researchers, secretarial staff etc, draw them from a civil service pool.
Any MP caught fiddling his expenses in such a blatant way, should be booted out at once, 10 days suspension, not sufficient punishment.
43. Civil servants can’t be employed for party political duties, they have to be paid for and employed by the party in question.
It is utterly astonishing that “no records exist” of the work done by Conway Jnr over a long period. I don’t want to say exactly what that looks like on a public forum… but it looks really, really bad.
43 - That’s nonsense as most staff work primarily from the constituency so there isn’t a civil service pool. I have nothing against MPs employing relatives if they are open about it so people can take a view. Plenty of these people put in long hours. The scandal is if there is “no record” of them doing any work.
46 Does “no record” include NI and PAYE recoords, do we know?
46 - Indeed. One of the problems about this is where an MP genuninely does rely on a spouse to do a lot of the constituency work (or, slightly less defensibly, the MP’s household needs the extra salary), the arrangement would make for an easy line of attack.
40 - Would you have the names of the others? Also, perhaps we can have a look at the dates involved and see if we can come up with a timescale for Cameron knifing Davis himself. Does Cameron have time to act against his one time leadership rival before a general election in 2010?
44
Then its time we started to look at that! Perhaps a private agency, hired by the party, to supply staff but paid for by the taxpayer, I wouldn’t object.
I certainly object to MP’s hiring their wives, and God knows what, and I suspect most people do. The present system is far to open to abuse.
This mild slap on the wrist stuff, is also far to weak a punishment. A body with draconian powers, should act as a watchdog, in this sort of case, immediate dismissal, only way to treat the sort of degenerate scum that behave like that.
A sensible post from Roger…I need to sit down.
43
10 days suspension is pathetic and confirms yet again that MP’s are exempt from rules & regulations that operate in the real world.
How much did that 86 page report cost to produce?
Was it really an appropriate expenditure of public money?
The entire who works in the MPs office and who pays etc is probably a very big can of worms, that not many MPs will want looking into with great detail.
I’m not sure we will hear a lot on this from opposition MPs. But if you or took that some of money for work not done, we would be out of a job in the private sector (I’ve fired someone for something similar)
53 - A lot of the 86 pages appears to be letters that passed between Conway and the people investigating him, and other reproduction of “evidence” and “proceedings”. It does seem like a lot of work for a mere 10-day suspension, but is not as weighty as it might at first appear.
Perhaps a private agency, hired by the party, to supply staff but paid for by the taxpayer, I wouldn’t object.
But then, you’d still have the same sort of problems. If an MP, for instance, needs somebody prepared to work with him and her as a constituency caseworker, they’re more likely to pick someone who is congenial to them - or, alternatively, spouses and children can work for other MPs through the agency on a “scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” basis.
56
If it is discovered that there is an attempt at collusion, bending the rules for financial gain, immediate dismissal. I’m not saying that it would be perfect, I’m not saying there aren’t flaws, but I can’t see how anyone, (except those with a vested interest) can support the present system.
If any employee fiddled the amount that Conway has fiddled, they would be sacked, why hasn’t he? If Parliament won’t then Cameron should remove the whip, after all this is taxpayers’ money,(not donations etc)he is stealing from his employer; US!!!!!
Cameron could remove the party whip.
From the weighty tome…
“..we are astonished that there appears to be no evidence, independent or otherwise, of any aspect of FC’s work for his father.”
No emailed briefing notes, nothing at all. I’m astonished too.
55. “It does seem like a lot of work for a mere 10-day suspension”
43 pages to suspend Clive Betts for 7 days in 2003
over 400 pages for the report on Galloway in July 2007
58 - True, on the John Browne/Howard Flight precedent. Were we near the GE, Cameron would probably consider doing just that. But now, it would be more of a symbolic punishment.
All Party leaders, should make it clear, that any MP who behaves in such a way, will have the whip removed, and will support de-selection.
42. Indeed. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. Though of course you must make the same allegation against your great leader, El Gordo.
He has less excuse than me. I am a “p1ssed up philandering libertine” (quote: Cicero) so I need to keep up appearances with the girls at Soi Cowboy. He, by contrast, is the sombre, granite-hewn keeper of the nation’s Moral Sextant, who nonetheless is so insecure he feels a need to have his teeth Zoomed.
Hm.
Think I might have a facelift next.
Augusts Carp @25:
He doesn’t need to. I live there
Well, to compare, I have to say what I think the effect of Hain and Johnson have been to Brown.
Hain has damaged the Labour brand, not specifically linked with Brown. He’s also ruined his own career, of course.
Johnson I don’t think has suffered anything but superficial damage to himself.
If Cameron came down like a ton of bricks on Conway he could use it as a positive comparison between himself and Brown, though that runs of the risk of being forced to take the same action should a similar case occur. I don’t think it damages Cameron, although it does make the Conservatives look a little whiffy when it’d be nice for them to be fresh as a spring meadow.
61 But Cameron still has to be careful - if he puts the boot in too hard, Conway could walk, and there is no way that the Conservatives would want a By Election at the moment, even in a Tory seat.
If it is discovered that there is an attempt at collusion, bending the rules for financial gain, immediate dismissal.
By whom? MPs cannot be purely treated as employees, if they are to do the other aspects of their job effectively. Expulsion can only currently come from a vote of the whole House, and lowering the expulsion threshold risks placing a very dangerous weapon in the hands of those who control the majority. The electorate must be the best judge (and the local constituency parties must act as the agents of the electorate to some extent).
New Gallup polls on the primaries in New York and California
California:
McCain 36, Romney 31, Huckabee 10, Guiliani 9, Paul 4
Clinton 47, Obama 35, Edwards 10
New York:
McCain 40, Guiliani 21, Romney 17, Huckabee 11
Clinton 56, Obama 28, Edwards 10
Carried out 23rd-26th, so pre-SC.
64 Excellent news! You’re a reliable sort, Borrowman: try to get an HQ closer to a good pub this time, there’s a good chap.
66 - That is making the assumption that they think they would lose any contest.
66
Bloody brilliant you seem to care more about saving your precious party from being disadvantaged, than doing the right thing.
Its time to encourage the others, decimation, the hollow square, so the public can see that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. Donations all the rest of it, thats not liked, but fiddling and stealing the taxpayers money, thats hated.
66. If Cameron thinks it’s safe he may use this chance to get another ally in there, he’ll have to be convinced they can keep it mind.
Conway’s local party will have a very large say in whether he continues as the MP. Cameron can remove the whip, tell him he should resign, but unless he losses the support of his local party he can tough it out.
What his/the seats majority?
Cameron is presented with the opportunity to be decisive and ruthless. It will give much contrast with Brown over Alexander, Hain, Harman etc. It will give Cameron the opportunity to play the anti-politics card. He can say he is leading the charge to clean up politics, and say Brown is failing to do anything. Withdraw the whip. From what everyone has said about Conway, he’ll be no great loss to project Cameroon. Depends how many friends he can ring round to support him.
If Cameron does nothing, he’ll look a trifle silly. Brown will counter-attack with it and Cameron will only be able to say “but he’s only a backbencher”. Then he’ll look bad. Its sack or nothing I’m afraid.
70 - I don’t think the Conservatives would lose Old Bexley and Sidcup. The LDs are fairly weak in Bexley, to start with, and have none of the historic strength they had next door in Bromley and Chiselhurst. But a flaccid performance wouldn’t help them.
73 - 9000 odd majority. The LibDem candidate is blogger Duncan Borrowman.
So if your the Constituency chairman, do you deselect him or not. I would, but who knows the politics of that seat!
77 - its a pretty safe outer east london seat. Labour are in decline locally and in Londonwide elections here. The LibDems are a poor second. The seat won’t be lost unless there is a by-election fluke. So the chairman could just hold tight.
The problem for Cameron is that he himself has had a complaint to the HofC’s Standards and Privileges Committee upheld against him.
He didn’t see fit then to discipline himself with any measure beyond what the committee had determined, so why should he in this case now?.
I think a little local action is required here. Mr. Conway should explain himself to his local Association and if they are not satisfied with the explanation given, he should be de-selected. By them.
After all, they are the ones who will have to work for him in a GE, whenever it comes and I think that the decision should be theirs.
It is up to the Leadership and the 1922 Committee whether or not to withdraw the Whip. They would do well to listen to local opinion.
Cameron needs to be decisive at the very least (to contrast with the Brown ‘dithering’). This would suggest a withdrawal of the whip or something. followed by the local party doing their bit by deselecting him.
66 Would he walk away from two years’ salary though, if he had the whip withdrawn? I suspect not.
79 Cameron’s certainly not behaved like this, so I don’t see any difficulty.
Conway used to be MP for Shrewsbury until he lost the formerly safe seat in 1997. Always a bit surprised he was then selected for Heath’s old seat but then had he not been Chief Whip or something in the last years of the Major government.
80
MODERATED
78 Lib Dems a weak third, I think…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/mpdb/html/444.stm
Nearly a 10,000 majority over Labour.
84 - MODERATED
85 - Would be more danger of losing it if Lib Dems and Labour were in opposite positions. Just goes to show the depth of the 1997 landslide that Heath only won 42% of the vote to 35% for Labour and a majority of 3,500.
Conway seems to have been given a harder slap than John Reid
33. Kieran, again it depends; the value of senior hispanic Democrats endorsements are, you’re right, individually not worth a bucket of warm spit - but given Obama’s catastrophic showing among latinos in Nevada, it IS significant to show that the community is not united behind Clinton - so in that respect it is of some consequence, coupled with Janet Napolitano (much more important as a popular, border-state hispanic Governor).
Ideally he also needs both Salazars in Colorado plus Bill Richardson and some of the Texas hispanic congressmen to really nail the lie. Am I right in thinking that Raul Grijalva from Arizona has endorsed Obama, or is that a figment of my imagination?
Ouch £40,000, that is a lot. Conway should be abolished
On a tangent, Blair has another new job:
http://www.insurancetimes.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=5&storycode=369066&c=2
I’d be wary of bandying round allegations of “theft” in the absence of any criminal conviction. On the face of it, he is guilty of unethical behaviour, but that doesn’t necessarily imply he is guilty of theft.
87 - that is very much true but from what I can work out, Labour are in real decline and the LibDems appear to be coming into second across outer South East London. This could help push the LDs into a stronger challenging position in the seat. But then again, this may just pass over. It depends how ruthless Guido is.
92 - Sean, if he has taken 40K from the tax payer and given it to his son that goes way beyond unethical behaviour. If a CEO had done similar I don’t think anyone would say it was just “unethical”.
94. Yes. Either the son did the work and there’s nothing wrong, or he didn’t and it’s theft. There’s no room for this middle ground “unethical behaviour”.
94 - I think you are wrong. Basically there is nothing intrinsically wrong with anyone employing members of their family in a legitimate capacity. I think the crux of the issue here is that the remuneration is mismatched to the amount of auditable work done. If one looked around the small businesses of the UK then you would find plenty of family members being paid for little or no actual work, of course MP’s are in a different class and should be treated differently.
84 - MODERATED
96 - I don’t see where you are disagreeing with me.
82. Well if you think there’s no difficulty with Cameron imposing a sanction beyond that of the Committee, that’s good. What punishment would you suggest?
91. More evidence that politicians are underpaid.
98 - You are suggesting that it is theft, I am not!
89 Adam I haven’t heard that, but I found this doing a google search.
http://blog.4president.org/2008/2007/05/raul_m_grijalva.html
Apparently he endorsed Edwards last May, but its possible he’s switched.
I don’t think we’re far apart in our views on this. As I think Socrates said Obama has got more chance of cutting Clinton’s lead with Hispanics and Whites than she has of cutting Obama’s lead with Blacks and endorsements obviously help but I’d be very wary of reading too much into it. Even in Arizona since the Napolitano endorsement there have been two polls showing a Clinton lead of 10 and 19 points.
Ultimately I’d rather be in Clinton’s position, having an inbuilt advantage, than in Obama’s hoping that these endorsements will turn things around
up to the local party my arse!
On the contrary - it’s a healthy way of proceeding. If people put their trust in their local party to select a candidate, then the local party should be able to ensure that their candidate, or MP, maintains the appropriate standards. If they don’t, then it’s an open goal for their opponents.
up to the local party my arse!
On the contrary - it’s a healthy way of proceeding. If people put their trust in their local party to select a candidate, then the local party should be able to ensure that their candidate, or MP, maintains the appropriate standards. If they don’t, then it’s an open goal for their opponents.
99. Withdrawing the whip would be one sanction.
94/95 My point is that any criminal conviction (including one for theft) has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. If this has not been done, one is leaving oneself open to libel proceedings by making allegations of theft.
“If one looked around the small businesses of the UK then you would find plenty of family members being paid for little or no actual work” - this would be likely to be tax evasion and I don’t think you can really defend it. Equally, a lot of family members help out with small businesses well beyond the call of duty for little or no money.
But MPs are in an equivalent position to big businessmen rather than small ones - there there is a clear dividing line between their business’ money and their own. The expenses are simply not the MP’s money and if the son did little or no work, it is simple theft as it would be if the Chairman of a PLC paid his son for doing nothing.
100 - You said that it may be the case that “the remuneration is mismatched to the amount of auditable work done”. That is fraudulent. How is that different to what I said? Is giving your son taxpayers money he hasn’t worked for fraudulent or not?
104 That should read “allegation” in place of “conviction.”
94. 96. It’s not just in small businesses either. I can think of many examples of big corporations where senior executives ‘employ’ what might be termed ‘favourites’ in essentially sinecure jobs. This is unfortunately a widespread problem - it’s not theft though.
104 - They are nowhere near libel, Sean. They are saying if the son did nothing then it looks very much like theft which has to be true. Mr Conway as I understand it says that his son did work but records were not kept of that work, which if true is rather incompetent but not theft.
104 - Sean, I said it had to be proved and he is innocent until proven guilty. We are in a hypothetical conversation. How the hell should I know whether his son did any work or not and whose fault that is? If, however, it can be demonstrated that what he is being accused of is true then I think that is fraudulent and not merely “unethical behaviour”. “Unethical behaviour” is the “Calamity Clegg” document or the push polling on McCain before the South Carolina primary in 2000.
105 - precisely James
New National tracker numbers:
Romney 28, McCain 26, Huckabee 16, Guiliani 13, Paul 7
Clinton 38, Obama 31, Edwards 17
3/4 of the interviews were done pre-SC. It shows a slight tightening on the Dem side, we’ll see how significant in the next few days.
106 - Did he intend to give more money simply because it was his son or not? Is he being caught out simply because there isn’t a sufficient audit trail? Whilst we should demand the highest standards in public life we cannot react as if every single breach of the rules is the end of the world. Yes he should be disciplined but some people would quite like it if any MP who slipped up was instantly thrown to the wolves.
112 - Sorry from Rasmussen
Michael Trend’s egregious use of the housing allowance was probably a worse case of misuse of public funds, and he was not prosecuted for fraud.
113 - of course this isn’t the end of the world. Not all MPs should be thrown to the wolves for every slip up. However, if his son did say 5 grand’s worth of work but was paid 40 or 45k, then there is a clear problem. In those circumstances, I don’t think its hysterical to react badly.
Put it this way. If the CEO of a company I owned shares in had acted in this manner I would be very annoyed. I am a share holder in UKinc. Therefore, I think I have the right to be a little aggravated if what is being reported is true.
113 - The Standards and Privileges Committee said:
“no records appear to exist of either actual work that FC did for his father, or of the work he was required to undertake… We are astonished that there appears to be no evidence, independent or otherwise, of any aspect of FC’s work for his father.”
So it isn’t merely an inadequate audit trail, it is NO records, which really is exceptionally damning. Could anyone here with an office job not produce ANY records, however scant, that they have been at their desk over the last few months?
118 James!! What an indelicate question! I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might incriminate me.
118 - exactly. Emails. Notes. Chewed pens. Anything at all.
Why Billary would let in the Republicans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27rich.html?em&ex=1201669200&en=548b245a1aa01a0d&ei=5087%0A
I use the term “unethical behaviour” because that is what, at this stage, he is accused of. Were he to be convicted of theft, or fraud, or false accounting, then one could use harsher language without running the risk of a libel action. Even if one thinks someone is morally guilty of theft, it’s unwise to say so, in the absence of a criminal conviction.
“a serious diversion of public funds”.
This plays far worse than donation problems, ‘ordinary’ voters know exactly what it means to give your family a fake job. They have little interest in proxy donors etc.This is meat & pots. sleaze.
122 - we are saying “if” Sean. What he’s got the 10 day suspension for appears worse than just “unethical”, it does seem like he’s gotten off lightly and this could be a problem for DC.
123 - Ordinary voters are also aware of the difference between ‘isolated case’ and ‘endemic problem’.
112. That’s a reasonable drop over the run of SC campaigning for Clinton, with Obama statistically the same. Obama gained 10 points after Iowa, which he has held consistently since, and Clinton dropped 8 points, of which she regained 6 (at the expense of Edwards). It seems that Obama is better at maintaining supporters once they have switched. I don’t expect the Obama boost to be as big after SC, although it could easily be 6-7 points. Accompanied with a few dropped points from Clinton it would put Obama ahead nationwide.
I wonder if ‘ordinary voters’ will be more concerned at Conway’s 40k ‘diversion’ or the £40bn plus that is at risk of being wasted on Northern Rock to prop up Labour’s interests in the NE?
Have only read the BBC snippet on this and not the whole of this thread, but is the gist of this that the Standards Commissioner has in effect cleared Conway in his report, but then the Parliamentary Committee has nevertheless found against him when it considered same report? That’s the impression Conway’s statement on the BBC website gives anyway (admittedly, there might be personal spin there!). Is that right?
Who sits on this Committee by the way? Is it Labour dominated?
125
Voters are also well that their kids are leaving Uni skint or not able to go at all because of £ and end up with a crap job. This is far, far worse than Hain.
Regardless of fool or knave he has gotta go and this will serve as a prime opp. for Dave to show he has more in his sack than Old Etonian wind (handy for powering his turbine, I grant you).
129 - I bet half the Commons is working the same scam.
Sorry. Make that 75%.
124 Post 84 (I appreciate it’s not yours) is pretty unequivocal. I think it should be deleted, because I suspect Conway is the sort of man who’d be only too happy to take advantage of our libel laws.
119 - Surely you, like me, have a half-eaten stale Hob Nob on your desk and a couple of print-outs from beerintheevening.com to prove that you have been at work physically if not mentally since Xmas
The detailed data for the 2 recent ICM and Yougov polls and the Yougov mayoral poll is on their websites .
The sample size in the mayoral poll was rather small only 339 and their is something wrong with the detailed data compared to their last poll . In all the age groups the person who was leading in the last poll is now trailing . For example Ken now has a substantial lead in the over 55’s whereas in the last poll it was Boris with a substantial lead . I suspect the data has been transposed in some way .
The ICM comparison with how people voted in 2005 is as usual interesting . LibDem retention is at it’s highest for some considerable time . Just 8 switchers to Labour with 7 in return from Labour to LibDem and 9 switchers to Conservative with 4 in return . Seems Cleggy has won back the majority of those who have recently been saying they would vote Conservative .
129, what’s the relevance of schooling to this story?
127 That’s an easy one! The Taxpayer has a much greater understanding of £40,000 than £40 billion.
There was a famous story told in the 1950s about the building of a nuclear power station. The budget for that went through on the nod – but the Committee spent the next two hours arguing about whether or not to spend £200 on bike shads for the said nuclear power station.
130 - Do you? I’d be more than willing to bet not if my experience of MPs is anything to go by. They are generally extremely careful with how they spend expenses and the Conway approach which, being generous, is cavalier, is rare.
128 - The members of the S&P Committee can be found here
The MP may even be investigated by the police after the all-party Commons standards and privileges committee found the payments - which also included bonuses of up to £5,000 to son Freddie - may have been a “serious diversion of public funds”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=510859&in_page_id=1770
134
bbc
Mr Conway paid Freddie to work part time for him as a researcher while he was studying at Newcastle University.
Standards and Privileges Committee MPs said there was “no record” of what work he had done and said the £1,000-plus a month he was paid was too hig
£1000pm. That’s really very rich indeed. Come on Sean Fear. This looks a bit more dodgy than “unethical behaviour”.
The LibDem PPC for Old Bexley and Sidcup has written to scotland yard to ask them to investigate. http://duncanborrowman.blogspot.com/2008/01/letter-to-new-scotland-yard.html
Libel action? Do me a favour. In order to prove your repuation has been damaged you must first have a repuation and the Aitken case showed that mp’s should keep their kids out of the reach of George Carman et al.
137 - so it’s 3 Tories, against an alliance of 7 Labour, Lib Dem and Plaid members.
I think I see what happened here…
142 - In fairness, Aitken asked his daughter to lie which is a matter of public record. If we take Conway’s word, Conway would be asking his son to give a full and honest account of what he did for dad and perhaps why no records exist to the extent the son knows. Apart from 84 though (which Sean has pointed out looks OTT) this thread includes a sufficient number of well-placed “ifs”.
143. The blizzard of astroturfing posts expressing ‘outrage’, most featuring poor spelling and grammar, should be another clue.
141 - what if the Old Bill put it straight in the bin like most other correspondence one receives through the door from the Lib Dems?
142 Quite a lot of people think that - until they consult lawyers and make some unwelcome discoveries. The late Lord Maxwell didn’t have much of a reputation, but it didn’t stop him from taking advantage of the libel laws. English libel law is weighted very heavily in favour of the Claimant.
140 My concern is to protect this site, and those who use it, from litigation. I have no interest in the fate of Mr. Conway.
This comes following news in October that Mr Conway was “the most expensive MP” in Kent.
Duncan Borrowman said: “In the 2006/7 financial Mr Conway claimed £140,943 in expenses. This included £22,060 for a second home in London, despite living just a short train ride from Westminster. Now the Commons Standards and Priviliges Committee has ordered Mr Conway to repay ‘the overpaid bonus sums’ of about £13,000 and pension contributions received by his son, and he faces suspension for 10 days from the House of Commons.
“Taxpayers expect to see value for money from their MPs, not fat cats lining their pockets”
http://www.borrowman.org.uk/news/000051/lib_dem_slams_fat_cat_mp.html
Conway deserves everything he’s going to get…
I miss Carman, clever man.
Of former Heritage Secretary David Mellor, he said: “Behaved like an ostrich and put his head in the sand, thereby exposing his thinking parts”
Tory mp’s beware.
Standards & Privileges Committee:
Rt Hon Sir George Young Bt MP (Chairman) North West Hampshire Conservative
Rt Hon Kevin Barron MP Rother Valley Labour
Rt Hon David Curry MP Skipton & Ripon Conservative
Mr Andrew Dismore MP Hendon Labour
Nick Harvey MP North Devon Liberal Democrats
Mr Elfyn Llwyd MP Meirionnydd Nant Conwy Plaid Cymru
Mr Chris Mullin MP Sunderland South Labour
The Hon Nicholas Soames MP Mid Sussex Conservative
Mr Paddy Tipping Sherwood Labour
Dr Alan Whitehead MP Southampton Test Labour
SeanT @ 34.
Provided you mix the G&T in 1/3rds (ie 1/3 Gin, 1/3 Tonic and 1/3 ice) then its intoxicant qualities are entirely predictable.
It is, and you will be, after 3.
Conway is a prize pratt. If reports are correct, then I think they call it conspiracy to defraud, or in old money - theft. Cameron and his local association need to hang him out to dry, pronto. There is simply no excuse whatsoever for this kind of behaviour.
If Cameron acts quickly, it contrasts well with Brown’s dithering over Hain et al.
How the feck can a Greater London MP get a “second home” in London at taxpayers’ expense?
I recall that the Lib Dem MSP Keith Raffan was coincidentally also unable to explain some £40K but was let off the hook by the Scottish Parliament.
I assume that all those baying for Conway to be tarred and feathered will join me in condemning the leniency of that previous decision. Or is this just one of those threads reeking of faux outrage from the opponents of whichever party whose turn it is this week to be caught with their trousers down?
146 - Sorry, Bob, no. The Standards and Privileges Committee is there to accept or reject the findings of the independent Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. It is not some sort of judge, jury and executioner and indeed the Tory chairman of the committee would not allow it. You will find no senior Tory today who will say anything other than “fair cop”.
153 - Stephen, this is not entirely a partisan thread. I am a conservative activist, and I say Conway has shamed us all. I would say the same of any MP, MSP or AM found acting equally dishonestly.
143 - To be fair, S&P members tend to be good “House of Commons men”, prepared to place the House and the reputation of its members above their partisan credentials (and that can be a bad, as well as a good thing, admittedly). Plaid aren’t particularly likely to tamely follow Labour’s lead.
153. Why should MPs be expected to provide evidence of how they allocate their expenses? MEPs don’t.
153 - Yes, I will completely agree with you. Of course, it is hard to see what the Lib Dems as a party could have done in that case as Raffan was neither an MSP nor a party member when the report came out.
69. I am sure my regular haunt, the Black Horse in Bexley (not to be confused with the Black Horse in Sidcup) will be very welcoming.
As has been said above I have written to Acting Commander Nigel Mawer of the Economic and Specialist Crimes Unit, calling for him to investigate the findings of the Commons Standards and Privileges Committee http://www.borrowman.org.uk/news/000052/lib_dem_calls_for_police_investigation_into_derek_conway.html
I have noticed that McCain is shortening and Romney lenghtening again for the nomination. This reflects the loopsidedness of Florida. If McCain wins, he will move towards 1/3 or even shorter, as his national lead (except Rasmussen, often an outlier) and lead in important WTA states sets him up for lots of delegates on February 5th. Even i Romney (barely) wins in Florida, he will remain the underdog, and I do not think McCain will lenghten much beyond 4/5. Romney would in such a case shorten, but mostly at the expense of Huck and Rudy.
160 - The WTA states definitely play in McCain’s favour, whichis why Romney needs the Florida win more.
155 - Robin, I agree with you about Conway. I just find these kind of threads can be a little limiting sometimes and flow along following kind of lines:
Party A supporter: “Yup. He was caught red handed. He’s a thief/liar/drunk etc and there’s no way I’m going to defend that.”
Party B supporter: “How can you say that!! He’s so wrong and you’re wrong to support him!”
Party A supporter: “What he did was wrong and I’m not defending him.”
Party B supporter: “That’s just such a Tory/Lib Deb/Labour response and typically defends indefensible behavior committed against the hardworking British people”
etc until Party A supporter snaps and defends the indefensible or Party B supporter’s Mum calls him in for tea.
157. Indeed, despite how I was reprimanded on here the other day for claiming the EU was more of a gravy train than the British government…
136
Have you not seen some of the absurd claims from MP’s with constituencies in greater London claiming allowances for second homes?
160. What Romney does have in his advantage versus McCain in greater financial backing from both his own wealth, and from big business interest. The latter don’t trust the maverick to enhance their interests in the way Romney - or Giuliani, if he’s still viable after Florida (only seemingly possible now if Giuliani scrapes home on absentee ballots) - would do.
I’m still expecting that Huckabee will survive and continue to hold his base, against two maintstream candidates competing for establishment backing.
A whole slew of new polling:
National Gallup (24-26) - They are running a national tracking poll
http://www.gallup.com/poll/103978/Gallup-Daily-Where-Election-Stands.aspx
Clinton 45 Obama 32 Edwards 13
McCain 31 Romney 21 Huckabee 18 Guiliani 12 Paul 5
Also new Mason-Dixon poll of Colorado Caucus, one of the first for this feb 5th state:
Obama 34 Clinton 32 Edwards 17
Romney 43 McCain 24 Huckabee 17 Paul 5 Guiliani 4
Surprising results given the sizeable Hispanic population and McCain being a neighbouring Senator.
151. Robin Wiggs. I think that is a shrewd assessment. If the facts justify it then decisive action by Cameron could turn an embarrassment into an advantage.
166. Irritatingly we have to wait quite a while longer to know what the state of play post-SC is. Usually it takes two or three days after an event for it to affect people’s views, and then another two days for polls covering that period to come out.