Should Gord be using his “big clunking fist”?
March 3rd, 2008
Interesting article in the Guardian by the commentator who used to be one of his most enthusiastic supporters, Jackie Ashley.
She believe that Brown is being too timid when it comes to picking fights and concludes: “…unless the prime minister has the courage to pick fights with powerful interests, then it really is all over. Labour’s assessment of the Tories as lightweight and meaningless is quite wrong. Cameron has won his advantage by taking some brave decisions, not by staying in his comfort zone. Brown needs to be open enough to learn too - that in politics sometimes it is better to pick fights and lose them, than not to fight at all. Brown was making jokes about his big clunking fist in Birmingham. What’s really needed is for that fist to drop the piles of briefing papers and to start to swing in anger.”
Mike Smithson
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God no.
We’ve seen what happens Broon uses his clucking fist, and it’s nearly always sticky and embarassing afterwards. Eww.
On seanT !!!!!!!!!!! please !!!!!!!!!
Tax evasion is not very exciting, to be honest. It’s obviously illegal and costs money, but I don’t think people will get enthused about it.
However, if Brown did run on evasion it wouldn’t do him any harm (unless he cocks it up), and Cameron can’t really attack him for trying to catch tax evaders.
On the other hand, it would cause huge problems for Nick Clegg, will declare a three-line whip forcing all his party not to vote for anything.
Well, in order for Broon to do Dave any harm at all, he needs to start clunking on issues who matter to those Lab-marginal soft Tories who have been lured back to the shiny plastic warmth of Dave’s face.
Frankly, tax avoidance is not an issue that fires up anyone except Guardian readers. Which is to say, not people that matter.
3 - Didn’t Gordon have 10 years as Chancellor to tackle evasion?
5, no, you must be confused. We have always been at war with Eastasia. Thank goodness the Supreme Leader arrived recently to oust the evil, deranged dictator Blair, to whom the Supreme Leader is entirely unconnected.
Brown will only start fights he knows he can win.
4. Many of them will be tax evaders themselves.
Without doubt Cameron and his minions ARE a veneer over the old Tory party. Whether or not this veneer proves to be hard wearing remains to be seen. Brown needs to get to work on it.
How do you remove a veneer? Pick at the edges, get purchase and peel the whole lot off.
As I have said before, Brown should hug Cameron tight, support and praise Cameron’s genuinely noble work to reform the Tory beast and drag him and them to the centre.
9, what?
What does that mean in terms of either policy or style?
9. Sounds like Jonathan has given up already.
5. and thats exactly what the tories will be saying. Gordon’s tried to get his clunking fists out many times, only that nasty Mr cameron doesnt stay still, and the shots either miss, or are swatted away with derison. Brown’s clunking fists only works when the target is immobile, and cannot hit back.
Ha! Floats like a bee, stings like a butterfly.
The accounts in the left leaning papers were that the spring conference lacked any sign of spring and had no signs of green shoots in the audience as most seats were empty.
So I am not be surprised by the article.
Toynbee has also written a few weeks back a “wake up” call to Brown to re-discover his roots and start to govern.
Meanwhile in the rest of the media the Mail and Telegraph still run an anti-Cameroon line so Brown gets let off by default.
The Times has a thundering headline calling for a referendum but spoils it with a truly inept article by Greg Hurst muddling the turn out percentages of IWAR.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3471719.ece
12
On the other hand Nick Clegg is trying to face three ways at once and makes an easy target:-)
Cameron has made lots of brave decisions.
Like Flight Taxes. Well until he scrapped them.
Or Grammar schools. Oh yeah that didn’t quite work out.
And leaving the EPP. Has he done that one yet?
Anything he says that appears brave (like all women shortlists) are either ‘aspirations’ or just don’t end up happening at all. About the only brave act he has managed is to speak without a script. Still, it’s better than nothing I suppose.
240 StJohn (Previous thread)
Halcon Generaldais is a very good horse and 40/1 is an insult. The trouble is that if the race goes to form and plan, you are backing him to come third. There is a scenario though in which Denman and Kauto take each other on and go too fast too soon; then the likes of HG could pick them up in the closing stages. Nicholls’s jockeys will no doubt have been briefed to avoid such a possibility but sometimes the horses decide for themselves. Denman’s a bit of a bully and Kauto isn’t used to being dictated to. Maybe these stable companions will beat each other.
I’m not backing HG myself (I’m on Denman at 5/1) but I’ve seen worse 40/1 shots - lots of them.
Don’t know the Irish horses you refer to, apart of course from Harchibald. I’m on ew at 8/1 for the Champion. I was much encouraged by his run at Dundalk the other night. People say the horse is a dodgepot. It’s not. It just doesn’t find much off the bridle. It does hoever have class and in a substandard renewal, I just can’t see it being out of the first three.
16. tories are leaving the epp, all signed and sorted.
15 - I thought that was the Lib Dem default position.
7. And Brown has a severe disadvantage, compared to Blair.
He is useless at Spin.
He therefore can’t play the card Blair always did; to pick “faux” fights in the media on the hot issues of the day and making it look sincere.
He is therefore compelled to pick fights on issues he can *actually* win. Exciting things like raising taxes on booze, keeping kids in school until 18 and extending GP surgery opening hours by 30 minutes.
Hmm… election winning stuff.
Credit to Guido for pointing out that Brown keeps repeating the same anecdote to a public audience.
http://tinyurl.com/29lh6g
and in Kevin Maguire, Brown found one journalist willing to laugh at it again and again and again…..
Maybe that is why Labour’s conference was so poorly attended, they had heard the jokes many times before?
I just thought it had something to do with the 60% drop in members.
15. If Brown can shift 5 points from the Lib Dems to Labour, he will stand a very good chance of still being PM after the next election, even with the Conservatives on 40-41 percent. Of course, donig that is quite a different matter.
21 - Politician re-uses anecdote in more than one speech non-shocka.
9. “Without doubt Cameron and his minions ARE a veneer over the old Tory party.
….How do you remove a veneer? Pick at the edges, get purchase and peel the whole lot off. ”
Now, which party was it that tried this tactic on Blair and New Labour in 1997 and lost?
Hmm… I forget.
The thing is, Dave realises that making big promises in the current climate is worthless, because Brown and Blair have utterly destroyed people’s faith in politicians of all kinds.
So there’s really no point making big, brave policy announcements because they’ll be met with cynicism or outright hostility.
What Dave’s done is to be a “tortoise”, a steady drip of micropolicies that indicate a general theme- localist, anti-politics, pro-liberty, pro-small-business, anti-federal europe, pro-environment.
Brown’s had a steady drip drip too, with each passing week he reveals slightly more ineptitude, corruption, cowardice and a stunning lack of political awareness and moral dimension.
16. It would have been monumentally stupid to leave the EPP without being able to move to another viable grouping, which won’t happen until 2009. Had we done so we would have lost all the Conservative seats on all European committees, thus handling the balance of power to federalists. Is that what you wanted?
As for flight taxes, they are still Conservative policy in real terms. It just gets charged to the airline rather than the passenger. Any economics student could tell you that the effect of a tax is the same regardless which side of the transaction it is charged to.
18.I thought Hague said in a recent interview that they were considering a half-in half-out deal. Whatever that means.
Please crave myindulgence, but from the previous thread:
246 I find it impossible to see how Hillary “wins” [either of] Texas
Why “impossible” Mark? The latest poll, featured above, shows her just 1% behind and gathering steam - remember NH and California.
To quote many a politician - I have been quoted out of context! If you read what I said in full, it was “by delegates. The Texas system is stacked against Hillary. She probably needs to be 7% or 8% ahead on popular vote in Texas to win on delegates (due to the gerrymandering/low previous turn-out amongst her Latino base which controlled the award of delegates to be fought over). Taking up the bet that she wins three of the states “by delegates” looks to be expending your money up against a wall…you would need mighty chunky odds to argue that Obama will not now win the delegate races in at least Texas and Vermont.
16. I’m not aware that he ever promised all women shortlists.
The Party will leave the EPP after the next European Parliamentary election.
Regardless of the bravery or otherwise of the decisions he’s taken, he’s both better liked, and more highly regarded, by the public, than Gordon Brown is.
If we’re going to follow up JA’s comment on (illegal) tax evasion, can we please distinguish this carefully from (legal) avoidance.
Opposing illegal evasion is just like opposing any other crime - worthy but what’s new?
Opposing avoidance is something Gordon was doing for ten years and masses of new tax legisation was added the The Taxes Acts as a result. It’s debatable how effective it is. The main alternative is a General Anti Avoidance Act, the ‘nuclear option’. Many countries have adopted such an Act. If the benefits were less equivocal, more would have done so.
11 Given up! Hardly!
Cameron has worked hard to create the impression that he has tamed the “nasty” old Tory beast. And he should be praised for what he has done, as far as it goes.
But there are undeniably some doubts whether his party have fully come with him on his project. There are questions whether they as a team are quite ready for office. In his own words “there is much more to do”, I think we should encourage him.
New poll by Brown Uni for Rhode Island shows a 5 point Clinton lead. It’s the lowest Clinton lead in the state. It may help to explain the Obama fly by over the weekend.
Clinton 42% .. Obama 37%.
16, the Opposition don’t make decisions, that’s what government is for. If you wanted a Tory government it’s a pity for you that Brown bottled it.
If only Cameron were as decisive as Brown over:
immediately rescuing Northern Rock rather than letting it drag on for six months to snowball into a £110bn millstone
or perhaps Capital Gains Tax
or non-dom tax
or setting up a review into whether or not boxers are superior to Y-fronts
Did I make the last one up? You’ll have to research to find out:p
21. How empty was the conference, I didnt see much.
@The Tory Troll:
No. The EPP wanted to work together with the new grouping to maximise committee seats, but it was met with short shrift because the EPP can’t be trusted.
As has been said, the Tories will leave the EPP after next year’s Euro elections.
17. Yeah, whatever he said.
27 Ah, Hague’s reviving the Hockey-Cokey EU strategy.
VC still 1.6 for Clinton to win Ohio. Tried for 500, they offered …. 100.
Hate that bookie - just cos I nailed them on an arb a while back, now they won’t take anything of any size
@Jonathan:
IDS was the nasty party’s last gasp. They had their chance and they blew it.
Dave is not ‘a veneer’, he and Osborne really have tapped into a new post-Thatcherite vein that really wants the Tories to become the massively localist, trust-the-people general wellbeing party we all desparately would like it to be.
22 “he will stand a very good chance of still being PM after the next election, even with the Conservatives on 40-41″.
I really believe that the Tories can hold onto the current 40% - and during the campaign, Cameron will bring over one new supporter for every ten they have now. Not that much of an ask. Tories to be on 44% at the next election - and a working majority. Gordon’s clunking fistiness can only help Cameron during the election campaign.
Damn! I was thinking a few days ago that if I got near betfair, I should bet on Medvedyev at anything longer than 1.01 - and perhaps even then. But I didn’t log on. Never mind, it’s only a few pence I missed out on.
31 It would appear that most of the new intake of candidates will be on the right of the party, something which I welcome (though you won’t).
38: ….and chopped to 1.4, with Obama now 2.75 - bit of an overreaction imo.
24 I don’t think the Tories had any kind of strategy in 1997.
The Grammar School debacle of the summer is exactly the sort of issue I am talking about. Cameron moved too fast for the Tory rump and came into a lot of bother as a result. There will be other opportunities like this.
IMO There is no point Labour criticising Cameron’s aim to drag the Tories to the left, because it is obviously the right thing for him to do.
R.E flight taxes. These look likely to be pushed down the memory hole:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3416624.ece
AS for EPP. We we will wait and see on that one. Leaving was an explicit promise by Cameron in the leadership election which got him the Liam Fox endorsement and the votes of many right-wingers. If i was one of those MPs I would take any further promises with a pinch of salt.
The “nasty party” never existed. It was a phrase invented by Douglas Smith.
45 No, all Conservative Euro candidates have signed up to leaving the EPP. Those who were unwilling to do so have stepped down.
The two good things about this Russian election are, first, that they didn’t cheat enough to win by an even more embarrassing margin (i.e. didn’t actually shoot anyone - I think?), and second, that Medvedyev may manage to get enough power together to, and may want to use it to, make Russia a more democratic place - at least it’s not still Putin officially in charge. Still, it’s pretty unlikely there’ll actually be progress. More likely, Medvedyev will be less popular and so will feel the need to cheat more. And anyway, Putin will be back as president - if I remember rightly it’s only three consecutive terms that are banned?
35. Martin, the “Tory Troll” is exactly what he says he is.
A Troll.
In other words, a sad useless muppet who’s got nothing better to do in life than trawl around the internet posting bilge in the hope of evoking some reaction from someone to validate his empty and fruitless existence.
Don’t read, don’t feed and he will leave.
45. Thank god !
46. It was Theresa May who made it famous.
@Sean Fear:
I’m not sure it’s especially helpful to talk about left vs right in discussions about the future of the Tories.
We’re clearly evolving, but in a direction to me which is neither left nor right. If anything, it’s more anarcho-communitarian.
46. You can not deny there has historically been a segment of the party (we can disagree about the size) that had views which were somewhat racist, sexist and homophobic. Even anti-Christian sometimes: I remember when John Gummer went mad because there was a British Humanist Association stall at the Conservative Conference only last year.
@Sean Fear:
The nasty party existed in the mind of the electorate, and that’s really all that matters.
Brand Cameron’s Super Magic Political Detox Potion has done us wonders.
45. Yes, that document said they had hurt the consumer too much. So they will charge the airline instead. My point stands.
53
I thought John Gummer WAS mad when he fed his daughter that BSEburger.
49. Actually I am just making points the same as anyone else on the board. As said before: If you don’t agree with someone and aren’t willing or able to debate with them, then just call them a troll.
It’s tried and tested.
46 “John Gummer went mad” Really! How could you tell the difference?
btw among the US dems, why is it that Hillary is known by her first name and Obama - and the rest - by his second? Presumably it’s actually to distinguish Hillary from Bill. Or perhaps something that happens to women more often. Interesting to compare to international leaders. Among recent leaders the only one to be referred to by his first name was Saddam Hussein? No doubt someone will list another eight now …
There was also Mao of course.
44. Not quite right, Jonathan.
Strategy was:
(1) Britain was doing very well
(2) Labour would ruin it
(3) Blair was a wolf in sheeps clothing
Unfortunately, no-one believed it.
Therein lies the problem. Whether you are right or not (and, incidentally, I don’t believe you are) voters have to believe your “line”.
If they don’t, then it doesn’t matter how much you say it. It will fall on deaf ears.
Capiche?
Dailykos diarist on Obama’s poll outperformance;
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/2/16596/61053/380/467458
I’m tempted to agree.
And as for the lead article on this thread, amen. Whether or not it’s good politics, there’s not much point in being in power if you’re not going to pick some fights and make some changes. Even Blair did that.
17. Cheers Peter. I will mull it over.
51 And it was very foolish of her to hand our opponents a stick with which to beat us.
54 It existed within the minds of those MPs who’d had their self-confidence destroyed by two landslide defeats.
53 Probably, but most party members have views on those subjects which are pretty mainstream. My objection to the “nasty party” line of argument was it implied that the views of the average party member were extreme.
42 - Even those selected from the A List and others further down in the winnable seats? Has there been any research on these candidates’ attitudes?
In any event, if David Cameron becomes Prime Minister - having gained well over 100 seats or so - he will be firmly dictating the agenda, and the Parliamentary party will (rightly) be eating out of his hand!
@Socrates:
Well, yes. Of course, there are strata in other parties that are racist, sexist and especially homophobic too. I mean, even our current Prime Minister is clearly at best a homosceptic, having always managed to be absent from any vote for gay equality ever.
So what if the Tories used to be more racist and homophobic than Labour? It’s not true now. Labour in the Dems are the ones being apologists for antisemitism and Islamofascism these days. They’re the one propping up a Clunking Fist who finds homosexuals distasteful. I can’t imagine Dave behaving in such a shameful way.
59. Clinton openly campaigned on her first name when she announced her candidacy. It was only recently that whispers came from the campaign about media bias against her, that the first name-last name was used as an example. It’s a mixture of familiarity with her (as was the case with Rudy in New York/Florida, but on a nationwide level) and to distinguish her from her husband, who has been very prominent recently.
64. When I interviewed Theresa May she said that she was actually quite proud of her comment that the Tories were seen as the ‘nasty party.’ Her point was that it forced the Conservatives to reassess an move to the centre ground. It was a ‘tough love’ strategy and arguably very effective.
Hillary makes sense as its the most descriptive, there’s only one Hillary we talk about - Clinton OTOH is not descriptive, it could be either her or Bill. Tony Blair was often called Tony, but again Blair meant more so that’s normally used.
66 - You are getting into dangerous territory Mr C.
64. I would agree that there is probably small difference between the numbers of bigots in Labour and the Conservatives these days, although I would have to say the Lib Dems probably have fewer.
I agree most Conservatives have more modern views on these issues, but historically they have suffered from not being as willing as the other two parties to stand up and condemn it.
For everyone’s sake, please do not mix up tax evasion with tax avoidance. Tax evasion is illegal and always has been. There is little political mileage in a clamp down on tax evasion because the authorities should have been doing it all along and if they have not then it is the fault of HMRC or the political masters.
Tax avoidance is perfectly legal and should be pursued by everyone. Indeed the Government encourages it in many ways. For example, cash ISAs and National Savings Index Linked Certificates where interest is paid free of income tax. We all have to have rules by which to play the game. If the Government makes them complex and riddled with anamolies, then it is its fault that people can find ingeneous ways of avoiding tax. But there is little political mileage in tightening up as you will soon start hitting widow and orphan funds.
@The Tory Troll:
I know what you mean. It really did work, because we elected Dave and have since been preoccupied with how the things we say come across far more than we did before she made the speech.
From her own political perspective though, she fostered a lot of personal resentment, because nobody likes to be confronted with the harsh light of reality. Even by someone with nice shoes.
62- of course there is. Lot’s of people telling you how important you are, great perks, nice trips, fab wine. Worth being PM just for that
Do we call them Ken & Boris because they are female? I don’t think so.
60 No-one believed the 97 Tory line because it wasn’t true.
* Blair wasn’t a wolf (leftie) in sheep’s clothing.
* Labour were not going to ruin the economy.
* And Britain was only doing well relative to the abyss where the Tories had previously taken it.
What I am saying is that Labour should back Cameron in his efforts to reform the Tory party. The last thing they should do is cast him as a wolf in sheep’s clothing either. People back his reform of the Tories, in so far as it goes.
Cameron is demonstrably following a strategy to the left of the bulk of the Tory party. He should be praised for that. He should be encouraged to encourage the pace of his reform.
If
A) If he succeeds in reforming the Tories as ” social liberal” party, as Andrew Lansley recently suggested, thus neutering the social conservative right. Then they ** may ** be serious candidates for govt.
or
B) He ultimately doesn’t carry the party with him and loses an election. C’est la vie.
Either way, it’s a positive result.
73. Yes its a shame that she was a fall guy from that but I think she had the right intentions. I was actually quite surprised when I met her how well she came across. Nowhere near as fierce as she does at the despatch box.
Guys, guys, I know I have insulted most of you in the last five hours, not least JackW who I called a puerile dullard, and cicero who I called a venal traitor, and piechucker who I called a pigfaced coward covered with hairy leprous warts, but hey -that’s all water under the bridge now, right?
Fact is, I need yr help. My publishers have now given me one day, and one day only, to come up with a title for my thriller. If I don’t it will either be called: The Jericho Vault or The Genesis Secret.
Agh!
They nixed Bible of Lies on the grounds it might get me lynched in America, a reasonably important market.
All and any ideas welcome. It’s my last chance. I’m hoping in particular that commenters such as piechucker, cicero and JackW might be able to help.
This is Bangkok calling. This is Bangkok calling…
“Quran of Dissemblage”?
That’s likely to get you lynched anywhere but America.
The Genesis Secret. Is this book something to do with Phil Collins?
78. Lucifer’s Gospel.
Book of Lies?
66 Yes Martin, it’s high time those of us with leftish sympathies gave up these outdated stereotypes. Sure, examples can still be found - on this site even - but they no longer seem characteristic of the Party as a whole and certainly not its leadership.
78. Why “Jericho” and why “vault”?
After three terms in office any party is going to look tired and jaded. All the things you should have done and didn’t do, and all the things you shouldn’t have done and did do, come back to haunt you.
Having said that, there isn’t that much enthusiasm for for any political party at the moment. The Tories have still not established themselves in such a way that they can expect an overall majority at the next GE, and I doubt they will.
The Libdems seem to be somewhat sidelined and are wandering, they need a sense of direction.
So the country seems to drifting rather aimlessly, into no-overall-majority territory. Unless some unforseen event/catastrophe causes dramatic change.
64 People who hold, ‘extreme’ views, never think of their views as being extreme. How many people do you know who call themselves extremists?
Reading the various comments on Dave’s policy on, ‘wimmin’ and the Alan Duncan, ‘marriage’ you are aware that Cameron’s views on these things, may differ somewhat from the views of the ‘Run-of-the-mill Tory’ I do wonder seanf how much more of this, (perhaps even yourself) they can take?
65 Conservative Home did a survey of newly-selected candidates which indicated this. I agree, though, that David Cameron will be firmly in the saddle if he wins.
66 I find one of the dreariest features of modern politics is the determination to accuse one’s opponents of “isms”. Labour isn’t a racist party, nor is the Conservative Party. Nor was either party in the past.
68 That is indicative of her poor political judgement.
71 I think it’s in the nature of Conservatives that they get less upset at these things. If someone makes a racist remark in my presence, I don’t feel any particular urge to hector them over it, unless it’s something really obnoxious, whereas I probably would feel obliged to if I were a left winger.
78 Ok, your publishers obviously chose to discard “Don’t blame me, it’s not my vault” - how about my other earlier suggestion of “Millions of Volts …” to remind your loyal readers of your earlier work.
85. Most tories I know (coming from a tory family) are perfectly fine with camerons line. My uncle, who was a major labour supporter but drifted after the iraq war, just emailed me that the boris johnson attacks made him walk out of the conference. he doesnt like boris much, and would vote ken if he could, but he felt the attacks were nasty and vitriolic.
78.I liked someone’s suggestion a couple of threads ago, Testament of lies? Or maybe Testament of the Brotherhood?
It was recently pointed out to me, in a way which shocked me and opened my eyes, that come the next general election that there will be an entire generation of voters for whom Thatcher is part of ancient history, no more real than DI Gene Hunt, John Major left power when they were young children, and that Labour are the corrupt, nasty party that’s been in power all their life.
The thing is, many political assumptions that people my age (30) make are 180 degrees wrong when viewed from the perspective of an 18 year old voting for the first time.
@Coldstone:
Mebbe we should limit governments to one year in office.
Gordon knows full well that he could not punch his way out of a paper bag. Just watch him when David gets at him in the Commons. He is all over the place and shakes like a leaf. Too slow and too old.
78. Rivers of Blood.
86. “I think it’s in the nature of Conservatives that they get less upset at these things.”
That may be true of a proper Burkean Conservative, but many in the party certainly get very upset and hectoring over quite a range of issues. John Gummer towards Humanists is a case in point. Anne Widdecombe is one of the most hectoring politicians I’ve ever heard.
90 The difference between a current 30 something and an 18 year old is vast. If you were ten in 2000, you have grown up with the Internet, mobile phones, new labour as if they have been around for ever. In many ways 30 somethings have more in common with 50 somethings.
So it’s wise to make no assumptions regarding that group.
Interesting thought that 18-24s still tend to back Labour in even the direst polls. Perhaps Labour still retains that anti-establishment/idealist part of its identity even after 10 years of government and all the compromises that naturally go with it.
I’m a Tory, and the things that get me shouty are the kind of insipid irrationally-solipsistic “I am the only thinks that…” variety.
I can’t imagine anyone starting a sentence “I’m not racist, but…” in my presence without feeling my tongue (and not in a good way) either.
78 - As the title seems to boil down to biblical references and allusions to a secret. Why not something like The Methuesellah Crypt? It includes a biblical reference and a crypt is a type of vault but also an allusion to a secret or mystery as in cryptic.
86 “I find one of the dreariest features of modern politics is the determination to accuse one’s opponents of “isms”. Labour isn’t a racist party, nor is the Conservative Party.”
Kind of what I was trying to get at, in my own stilted way, SeanF. Not quite so sure about the past but certainly true now.
94 That’s so. There’s no reason why at all why the British Humanists shouldn’t have a stall at our conference (though I think they’d do rather a thin trade. The public face of atheism in this country is extremely left wing, so it makes sense for them to see if they have any common ground with Conservatives.
85 WRT Cameron, I expect that only about half of the things I want would ever be implemented by a Cameron-led government, but that’s still more than I’d ever get from a Brown-led government.
The Hellfire Descent
its either that or
The Role of Anarcho-syndicalism in Twenty-first century party political activism.
In Belgium.
86 comment on 71
As y’know I’m a big fan of Jim Davidson( if any one wants to borrow one of his DVD’s I have ‘em all) who else but the Tories would have had him as ‘cheerleader’ at their conference. Have all those Tories who cheered Section 28, called Mandela a terrorist etc, just disappeared: don’t think so!
90. Very very true.
Labour are stuck in a 1997 mindset. The voters are not. Just saying Tories Are Bad Nasty Racists! is the political equivalent of a stand-up comedian trying to rerun a Ben Elton skit from the mid-80s - and hoping to get a buzz from just saying f*** Maggie Thatcher.
Any comic who tried that would get laughed off stage - for the wrong reasons.
It just doesn’t resonate. Indeed it reflects badly on Labour: they haven’t come up with a new way of attacking the conservatives. And all their attacks are in danger of rebounding: after ten years of lies it’s Labour that look sleazy, nasty and untrustworthy. Fact of life.
Not sure what they can do about this. Indeed I’m not sure there is anything they can do about it, apart from hoping that DC screws up, and the electoral bias in their favour saves them just one more time.
Re titles! Thanks for the ideas. The book is at the moment called The Jericho Vault coz its partly about secret stuff hidden in underground places and the theme is kinda Biblical.
I think they call it titling-by-numbers.
“Jericho” is a nice word though.
95 18-24 year olds don’t back labour in even the direst polls - there’s quite a lot of polling evidence of both the LDs and the tories being ahead in this group. It’s wishful thinking to beleive that Labour is now ahead in any age group.
“Lucifer’s Children”
(ie - the human race, due to the demon taint)
Or “The Demon Taint”
“The Devil’s Secret”
“Darkness from Eden”
34. There were loads of empty seats from the pictures I watched.
99
There are Labour supporters who voted for Blair who said the same thing about Major, but did they get more of what they wanted, nnnnaaaahhh ‘course they didn’t, will they admit it, nnnnaaahhh ‘course they won’t.
“96 can’t imagine anyone starting a sentence “I’m not racist, but…” in my presence without feeling my tongue (and not in a good way) either”
I wouldn’t recommend that as a canvassing technique.
106
Ah! I did get one thing I wanted which I wouldn’t have got from the Tories, (no chance) ‘The Right to Roam’ legislation.
102 - Incidentally I thought of you & your book title over the weekend - as I was in Jericho enjoying a number of pints of fine real ale. (Jericho, Oxford for those slightly confused). Still didn’t manage to come up with a better title, but did make me wonder if people will get the wrong Jericho, or think it’s some kinda Inspector Morse rip-off…
I think these references to nasty Tories etc by the Labour party are self defeating. Not so mush substance as smear!
Other than the Brain dead Labour supporters who joined the Labour party to combat capatilism and make a fairer society (Don’t hear much about that these days!!!
) nobody is taken in by the pathetic breast beating by Labour ministers. I put it down to the desperate effort to destract the electorate from the sespit of sleaze that Labour calls home.
After Labour have raped the english tax payer and castrated the political process in this country with their warped and corrupt attempts to rig the electoral system - What else can you expect from a pointless band of second raters left in the wake of Tony Blairs depature! Does not say alot for Labvours failed relaunch when they bleat on about Tories in an almost phychotic diatribe! Still room at the monastry for the unblanced Labour backbencher though!
101 I’ve never found him funny at all.
105. Well there must be something more useful one could be doing, like staring at a wall of still-wet Dulux emulsion.
104. I think “The Devil’s Secret” is quite good.
101. Lets not forget Kenny Everett (Lets bomb Russia!):lol: The Tories have the bect comedians like the tories have the best totty!!!!
103. Yes I think the generation coming up now is definitely more right-wing in outlook than my generation (twenty-somethings). They have grown up in an extremely consumerist society and the appeal of money (lower taxes etc) is bigger than socialism.
However, they are also socially liberal in outlook, something that Cameron has obviously cottoned onto. Unfortunately for the Conservatives, they are also the generation least likely to vote. For all his attempts to win over the myspace/bebo/facebook crowd, just take a look at the Cameron/conservative facebook groups. There are none which have much more than a thousand members.
114. Mind you the way Labour run the country as a government - one could argue that the Labour governemnt are the best comidians? Problem is the joke is on the country and it is a very expensive performance!!!
76. Jonathan, I’m not going to get into a debate with you on 1997, but I will say this: I think Labour *have* damaged our economic position (long-term) – and the economy was undoubtedly much improved by 1997 as a result of Conservative, however you may try and convince yourself otherwise. Blair was (is?) notably more left-wing than people give him credit for. He implemented much of Kinnocks 1992 Labour manifesto, notwithstanding the fact he was the personification of “new” Labour, but, yes, you are right in one respect – he was a pragmatist and a realist.
Anyway, let bygones be bygones.
Your strategy appears to be for Labour to support Cameron in the hope that this will incense so many Tory backbenchers that they will make life very difficult for Cameron, or try and oust him. The aim being that the “Veneer will come off”. “Pick at the edges, get purchase and peel the whole lot off. “
Ergo, the Tory party will revert to “type” before 2010 and you will win the election.
Hmm…
You could also “validate” the process of change in the Tory party and confirm in voters minds that it really *had* changed (thanks to Tebbit/Heffer and the Labour party) and/or it would be seen as a cynical piece of Brownite spin and our backbenchers just wouldn’t take the bait. Just as we haven’t taken the bait over the Lisbon Treaty.
Even if you could convince the visceral Tory loathers on your side of the fence to back this strategy, Jonathan, it would not work.
But, by all means, be my guest – go-ahead and try!!
@SeanT:
Why not throw them off balance with an unexpected title then?
“Katy the Kitten goes to the zoo!”
“Horny Sailors Do Shore Leave”
“Delia’s How To Make Dinner Using Other People’s Rubbish (Book 3)”
SeanT Worm in the Blood?
113. Yeah, it’s not a bad title at all, but I know my publishers will say its too Gothic - too horror-novel and therefore pigeon-holing. Ditto “Lucifer’s Children”.
I know I’m being a bore but that’s how these things work. Apparently!
This whole process has been eye-opening for me - previously I wrote literary fiction and hopefully-culty memoirs. This is different. Titling a book for the mass-market is as much about NOT offending people and NOT narrowing the potential readership as it is about positively attracting people.
Given that I am new to this game I have to trust their judgment - HarperCollins know how to sell shedloads of books when they want to. And I quite fancy selling just tons of books. It’d be nice to be in every airport in the world.
I’d rather have written the Da Vinci Code than most Booker prizewinners of the last forty years.
Labour’s best chances are to allow EU citizens full voting rights (ie vote in General Elections) in UK and also block expats from voting here, they’ll probably do it and probably do better than expected.
120 How about
“I dare you to buy this book….”
120. What about “The Fall”, as an illusion to what transpired in Eden?
I really do wonder what Labour will ban next. There are stories about stopping second homes. Will Labour next stop households having windows in their houses? Mind you this will stop the plan to ban second toilets on the grounds of saving water. If they ban windows - people will not even be able to crap out of the window!
Due to the effects of population growth through non organic growth of the residual population - Craping out of the window is becoming rife in some urban and metropolitan areas!
117 In any case, I think Cameron has mainly made his peace with the Tory Right. Some of the left-wing PC stuff is irritating, but I think most Right wing Conservatives would acknowledge that a Conservative government would tax less than a Labour one, and that David Davis and Nick Herbert would give them most of what they want on issues like penal policy and immigration.
122 I Can’t Believe its not Da Vinci?
With a bright yellow cover of course.
120 - If you keep offending people here then you might find your airport aspiration fulfilled in a literal rather than literary sense!
Me, some other taxpayers and a couple of house-bricks are on our way to Washington, Tyne and Wear. Anyone else interested?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm
115.Yes, but check the Obama generation. Socially liberal, politically libertarian, internet savvy, racially blithe, happily capitalist yet tinged with sincere idealism: that is the future. And Obama shows that this generation can be seriously engaged and energised. Through the internet, not least.
That’s the future of the Tories, if the Tories have any sense.
Labour’s top-down, top-heavy, multiculti, eurobureaucratic, Hillary Clintonish, we-know-what’s-good-for-you welfarist authoritarianism looks very old fashioned in comparison.
90. I had a conversation with a young relative (16 years old, reasonably clued-up grammar school boy) over the weekend which set me thinking on the same lines:
He was reading the paper and asked, “Who are Neil and Christine Hamilton?”
“He was a Tory MP”, I said, “who got paid by Mohammed Al Fayed to ask questions in Parliament.”
“Right”, said my relative, “about Diana I suppose”. I then had to explain that Diana was still alive at the time.
So, you’re right Martin: for voters under about 20, the Major years are ancient history. This probably applies too to 20-25 year olds who took no interest in politics in their youth. Even William Hague is a vaguely interesting chap who sometimes appears on the telly, not a former Tory leader.
125. I think generally the uk population is far to the right of political parties on penal policy - reaction to pubic policy advocated by political parties tends to be one of wishing the political parties would be harder in their conduct of penal policy.
I suppose “The Jericho Referendum” would be too provocative?
120 “From Eden to Golgotha” - hard to know if that’s suitable without reading it. Can we get an advanced draft, and suggest names in a day or so?!
Why do all these book titles at the moment sound like something written by Dan Brown?!
I like a “one-word” title. It’s more hard-hitting and original. It has mystique. It has intrigue. It can have double-meaning.
How about..
“Inherent”
“Heritage”
“Descent”
“Transmissible”
“Sepulchre”
I like ‘em
95 etc Some Yougov comparisons I posted Saturday for 18-34s.
14/15 Feb 2008 S Times
Conservative 40
Labour 36
Lib Dem 18
Other 7
Difference on final GE2005 poll
Conservative 13
Labour -1
Lib Dem -13
Other 1
There has been a massive increase in Conservatives, a minor drop for Labour and a massive drop for the Lib Dems.
Yes, the country is becoming more right wing, and the indications are that this will be the trend for 10 or more years as it is starting so young.
134. Fair point.
“Sepulchre” has just been used by Kate Mosse, who sold a trillion copies of her first historico-thriller, “Labyrinth”.
To be fair, the title formula “the something something” has been around for a lot longer than Dan Brown.
Remember “the Satan Bug”? Big seller in the 70s.
135. Good. We need to keep Labour out for at least 18 years again to reverse all the damage they have done.
136 I always thought Fred Phelps description of Britain would make a wonderfully gothic title for a novel “Island of the Sodomite Damned.”
129. Possibly, but Obama’s success and the political enthusiasm in America generally is only in part due to the internet. Simply spraying your brand over the net can only do so much.
Obama has put most of his funds into getting party members and field officers out onto the streets. It is this ultimately that wins elections. If Cameron wants that kind of success he will need to get people off of their computers and into a Conservative association. This ‘donate a pound’ to the Tories business is more wishful thinking at this stage than anything.
In any case, with current levels of mistrust and apathy in this country, I think it will take many years to get anywhere near the level of political engagement seen in the US.
129. The Obama generation is also motivated by civil rights concerns, the removal of money from politics and the wish to provide healthcare and a decent education for all.
135. Those numbers aren’t comparable as people were choosing betwen Howard’s Conservatives and Cameron’s Conservatives. That is clearly the reason for the difference, rather than a huge right-wing influx in 18-21 year olds (the new entrants to the electorate in those three years). What is actually the case is that young people dislike old centralised bureaucracy, but didn’t want to support a party that based its reelection on an anti-foreigner and anti-gypsy message.
140 - “The Obama generation is also motivated by… the removal of money from politics”
They should perhaps not look too closely at Obama’s fundraising stats then.
136. You make a fair point in response to my fair point(!)
However, when I see “The something something”, I just think; “Sheeez! Another mainstream thriller.”, “Another Dan Brown rip-off”, “Another bog-standard piece of holiday trash.” etc. etc.
When you go into Waterstones or Ottakers, you need something to really GRAB your attention to pick it up and read it. A snazzy cover. A unique title. Something original. Something amibigious. Something that stands out.
Or, why not go one step further??
Play on the genetic thing.. Make your title just a few letters.
Like… a chromosome string?
“X-X X-Z” with suitable graphic
“DNA” with some blood or in an “evil” font?
You get my drift..
Obama’s “Yes we can” message is very powerful, though Dave wants to sell a message that is potentially even more powerful “Yes YOU can”.
Politics should be empowerment of people, of local communities, of small business, of cooperatives.
Broon, if he had a slogan, would be “Yes, I can. Wait, I’m scared, no I can’t.”
SurveyUSA latest poll has Hillary 10 points ahead in Ohio!
http://tinyurl.com/3yac58
U.K. to Set Up Body to Dispense Financial Advice to Households
By Gonzalo Vina
March 3 (Bloomberg) — Treasury Minister Yvette Cooper will set up an agency to give free financial advice, in an effort to save U.K. households 300 million pounds ($596 million) a year.
The department will advise people on state benefits and extend help in managing debt, saving for retirement and buying household insurance. The plan will cost 12 million pounds to start up, the Treasury said.
They created the miracle debt-ridden culture and NOW they want to advise people how NOT to get involved in it?
Off to Italy to see the Gooners win in Milan tomorrow night. I have an assurance from management that they will win so you can take or leave that hint.
SeanT, how about “The Blood of Canaan”?
141. I meant special interest money!
145. I look forward for civil servants giving out advice on money purchase pensions - oh the painful irony.
145 - Right so we are supposed to go to a government that is running a huge defecit for free debt advice. Hmm.
Surely you want to be using the word fruit, Sean, if it’s about Eden & bloodlines. I suggested “The Tainted Fruit” the other day but maybe “The Serpent’s Fruit” might work?
(with serpents as helices on the cover, natch)
Some interesting ideas floating around this afternoon. How pleasing it is to see the “alternative” comedians getting their come-uppance.The hypocrisy of their po-faced routines on anti-sexism followed by calling Mrs T a bitch. Their torch is now being held by BBC rock music documentary makers. One, repeated recently tied pop music into the political background. The “winter of discontent” and complete economic collapse in the 70s was just an unattributable national malaise but some later pop event was the direct response to evils of Thatcher regime.
There’s a news story kicking round at the moment about a Doomsday Vault, if you want some latent title recognition. Maybe a bit cliched?
Alright SeanT (AKA You Swivel-eyed Ba**tard
)
I was thinking The Dead of Jericho, then I remembered somebody already wrote it…
The Trumpets of Jericho? The Walls of Jericho? The Joshua Vault? Dead Sea Stories? The fountain of Moses?
That will do- I don’t think we should go too nicey nicey…
78, Suggested variants on the theme Bible of Lies/The Jericho Vault
Gospel of Deceit
Disciples of Deceit
Testament of Truth
Testament of Lies
Disciples and Destiny
The Triptych Covenant
The Genesis Matrix
The Divinity Matrix
The Genesis Genome
The Lucifer Genome
I posted these yesterday but you may have missed them…..or not
to add to book title thinking - i have no idea what the book is about but classical / bibilical references seem to be what your publisher is looking for so how about the following
The concealment of Tamerlane
The lost rune of the Cherusci
the Khephrem Sepulcher
Mount Sipylus
The Saladin conundrum
The haunt of Tanatalus
sorry shoudl be Tantalus
150 Careful, Aaron, we don’t want to know too much aout the way your mind works…
155 - I tried “Genesisyphus”, but he didn’t buy it, morgan.
There is only one organisation to blame for the fact that there is so little good free financial services advice these days - and that organisation is Her Majesty’s Government. Their insistence on tinkering, their obsession with conflicts of interest and their inability to recognise a good thing when it was staring them in the faqce has led to the current predicament. Nowadays financial services organisations cannot give advice without extensive (and expensive) fact gathering exercises, which all have to be documented and explained in intricate detail. The presumption is that the bank manager, insurance salesman, solicitor etc is a crook, and out to fleece the public. Consequently, advice only comes before a probable sale. Otherwise, it’s too risky as well as too expensive.
When one considers the really good work the average “Man From The Pru” and his colleagues did for the British working classes, it is extraordinary that they were harried into extinction by a Labour Government.