Is the heat now on Hillary?
March 25th, 2008The story of Hillary’s version of a visit to Bosnia in 1996 and how she has been describing it has developed into the big story in the nomination race over the past couple of days. The CBS report above sums it up well interspersing footage taken at the time with what she said last week.
The reference to Bosnia arose as part of her case that she has experience.
For the moment this moves the story on from Obama’s Pastor to what Clinton’s spinners are describing as a “misspoke”.
Mike Smithson
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179. Which is why you have selection within schools. I always felt held back in the subjects that weren’t setted in secondary school. And when I’ve helped out in younger classrooms, the less able are always more willing to participate in class discussions when the brainiacs that scoff at them for saying silly things aren’t present.
181. Indeed, if you are in a profession where teamwork is needed for success you’re more likely to think the rest of society should be that way, whereas if you’re in a profession where innovation and competition makes organisations more successful you’re more likely to be pro-free market. When what’s needed is horses for courses.
188. I knew very well when choosing A Levels how important those choices were, which is why I never took the easier ones like business studies or media studies. It would seem that most people need to be told the obvious though.
On topic, this makes Clinton look evasive and blunts her foreign policy argument. However, she will win in Pennsylvania so the pressure won’t get that bad until the media looks to NC and IN.
Although at first glance it seemed a minor controversy, it does seem like this could be a straw that breaks the donkey’s back.
Using my fairly unscientific analysis of youtube trending, this story has become the no1 political story on youtube. Just as the obama speech was posted dozens of times last week, so has this story this week.
There is only so much spin about her experience that a nation can take and this attacks goes right to the heart of what has so far been her key lead over Obama.
Can’t see why anyone surprised. Her husband used to lie all the time, not surprised she thought “why not me”. I guess it sums why she’s running in the first place. Didn’t she say in her NY campaign in 2000 that she had no interest in the White House only to “serve” or something like that?
Is the heat now on Hillary ?
Yes …. take one well aged bird, get it well stuffed by an Illinois chef and place in the oven at gas mark nine and leave till the goose is well and truly cooked. Serve with a liberal dose of American humble pie.
Parson’s nose Mrs Clinton ??
“American humble pie”
Oxymoron, surely?:p
Ooh, Mr Obama, I gorn done a misspoke so I have.
She’s either demented or a liar. Ideally suited to be US President.
Hillary is a big fan of Heather Mills too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlFsVi5zuhc&feature=related
For some reason comments have been disabled.
I’ll be charitable and suggest that she misremembered, I mean who doesn’t unconciously exaggerate exciting and dangerous monents of their lives in the retelling? The difference, of course, is that CBS News didn’t have cameras there when I heroically tackled a man who’d just stolen an old ladies handbag, performed a citizens arrest and dragged him to the police station myself.
It nicely exposes the ludicrousness of her claim to have had the experience needed to be President through her years as first lady, however. If that’s the case, why not Laura Bush ‘08?
Hillary re-ignites ‘pastorgate’ :
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23796627#23796627
Once again, we get an issue which goes right to the heart of Team Clinton campaign. If Bill is considered as ‘on board’, there’s no doubt about the amount of experience she’s bringing to the White House - and he should almost certainly be considered as part of the package. However, to admit that publicly would completely undermine her own campaign, so she can’t. And therein lies the internal contradiction at the heart of her candidacy, which probably has no workable solution.
I have watched the News on several TV. channels this evening and cannot believe the pious rhetric coming out about Mugabe rigging elections. Allegations of the dead voting and a disproportiantly large number of people ofver 100 in a country with one of the lowest life expectancies in the world is intriguing.
Why is it the media is ready to wag the finger at former colonies but turns a blind eye and raise the finger at the electorate in the UK by not reporting a crime that affects them directly. Rhodesia / Zimbabwe is a far away land yet the media class seem more bothered about the emasculation of democracy there than here. Whilst Labour have not started beating people on a larage scale imtemmerdation has been known in some areas with threats of sackings etc - I think the euro election of 2004 uncovered much of this.
Maybe Nick Palmer should have gone to Zimbabwe to study how to maximise core vote strategies instead of the Swiss Socialist party gathering.
3 I agree with Peter. Not sure people expect any better from the Clintons. I’d be surprised if anyone is supporting Hillary on the grounds that she going to clean up Washington and bring a refreshing honesty.
Obama on the other hand is exposed to controversies because he is the one who purports to be different from the average pol. Hillary isn’t running as the change candidate.
12
Oh come on! Mugabe can’t be that bad Mrs T was quite happy to hand power over to him.
Oh didn’t she say, ‘The next Conservative government will have no truck with that blood stained Marxist Robert Mugabe’ hmmm wonder what happened there?
12:
Absolutely! And certainly inflation in the UK is closer to the Zimbabwe level than the fantasy land 2% Mr Palmer and his cohorts are always quoting.
12. Pretty outrageous even by your standards.
Do we have external monitors of our elections and if so, what do they think. I doubt the mess around postal voting pleases them much.
On the point about sackings I remember being told that in my mum’s home town, were you to vote Conservative, you’d never be given a job by anyone. Another reason for a secret ballot?
Thatcher was considerably warmer to Mugabe than she was to Mandela.
17
Of course! Mandela was a terrorist, and Mugabe, was a nice cuddly chap who she was quite happy to do business with.
12. I don’t think the odd dodgy practice in the UK can be comparable to the gross human suffering caused by Mugabe destroying the country. Just look at Freedom House rankings for example. People are people, and their worth is just as much whether they are next door or half the globe away.
15. Yes inflation here is clearly closer to 10,000% than 2%. Right you are.
1. Socrates. But I don’t think some students *do* know which courses are supposed to be ’soft.’ I mean, media studies maybe considering the amount of hoo-ha the papers and the BBC make of it, but I don’t think many of today’s kids would look at business studies and immediately think ’soft.’ There’s also the fact that many students in poorer 6th form colleges will not get the same level of advice as those in better performing educational establishments.
And it’s not just telling kids that they shouldn’t take ’softer’ subjects if they want to go to a ‘good’ university, it’s helping them tailor their choices to the course and the occupation that suits them. And I happen to think that the advice given in schools on this tends to be poor and with an emphasis on the short-term, ie “pick the ones you enjoy.”
There needs to be a change in narrative on this - if there ARE A Levels out there that are worth less than others, the government should downgrade their status from A Level to something else, clearly demonstrating they are of less worth.
14, 17, 18. Clearly she didn’t know how bad Mugabe was when they handed over power to him.
Two sad things about Hillary’s Bosnian Misspeaking:
1) Thing that hurts Clinton campaign the most was that Hillary’s remarks weren’t a blooper, but rather were carefully scripted. Yet appears none of the phalanxes of spin-doctors surrounding Hillary ever bothered to read her own book, or reviewed actual reporage of the incident. This would look boneheaded for Mike Gravel, let alone the Clintons.
2) As First Lady, believe that Sen. Clinton really did a great deal of good. The trip by her and Chelsea to Bosnia is a case in point. And make no mistake, that was a trip to a bona fide war zone. Though there’s no doubt the US military did everything in their power to reduce the risk.
Hillary’s problem is that she and her campaign is that she has stupidly misrepresented her own qualifications. And just as stupidly and wrongly, said that both she AND the GOP nominee is more qualified to be President.
It’s called biting your buttt off.
12. Voting fraud here is peanuts compared to many countries in the world. Whilst we have to stamp down on it, comparing the UK to Zimbabwe is a bit crass, I feel.
21
Ah sweet!!
I wonder what you would be saying if it had been a Labour PM who’d handed over power to RB, I’m sure you’d be just as understanding!!
Ian Smith should have accepted HW’s deal back in the 60’s.
This gaffe could well cause pain ok. Its just plain stupid which is exactly why its got damage potential.
Be interesting to see.
19. gross human suffering caused by Brown destroying the country.
21: ‘Clearly she didn’t know how bad Mugabe was when they handed over power to him.’
I’m no fan of Bob, but as African rulers go he wasn’t that bad in the beginning. His problem was that he stayed in power too long and went deranged. (We had a similar situation here with Tony Blair.)
“inflation in the UK is closer to the Zimbabwe level than the fantasy land 2% Mr Palmer and his cohorts are always quoting.”
According to the New York Times, inflation in Zimbabwe is running at more than 1,000% per year. So, you think inflation is more than 500% a year right now?
Yesterday “Peripatetic” claimed that inflation between 2000 and 2007 was more than 10% a year. That means that general weighted prices more than doubled between 1999 and 2007. Of course, they haven’t done so. Even petrol has only risen from 71p a litre (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/422598.stm) to around £1 last year. (That’s less than a 50% rise over 7 years.)
I don’t doubt that inflation is above the 2% claimed by the government, but PB regulars do talk a load of rubbish on this subject…
24. How come nobody tries a Coup - where is *scratcher* and his mates when you need them?
9. You’d know if you got shot at. Mainly because you’d crap your pants the first time at least.
12 - I took a break from reading this site because of people like Martin Day. They just ruin it.
On topic, so both Democrat candidates will emerge from this primary process with their reputations in tatters. What a mess. If it weren’t for McCain looking so OLD in every photo, I’d think he was a shoo-in.
27. His problem was that he stayed in power too long - Thats the problem with all leaders though - the ones that stay the longest usually are best at stifling dissent or have just not been rumbled.
Interesting to compare the last General election in England with Zimbabwe. Labour lost the popular vote yet managed to win 90 more seats than the Tories. Maybe the Labour party held a reception commitee for Robert Mugabe? Of course it would have been done in secret as they would not want peter tatchel doing a citizen arrest on Mugabe. Jack Straw would probably have been the greeting minister although i would hope he had his glasses on this time so he could recognise mugabe.
31. Well FVck off then you fat B@stard!
28: Hey careful who you tar with that brush!
31. See your power there Martin…..use the force wisely now. It’s a gift mate.
24 - Hate to rush to the Iron Lady’s defense, but as I remember it, the Zimbabwe settlement was considered a positive development by virtually everyone except certifiable rightwing nutbags. Then and for many years thereafter. Perhaps it was doomed from the start, though I doubt that. But think it makes more sense (if not much) to blame Lord Salisbury before tearing into Lady Thatcher.
29 - Suggest dropping current Lord Thatcher into Harare on the next moonless night . . . sans parachutte . . .
Sorry to interrupt the gay badinage, but I see Ladbrokes’ ‘Constitutional/Parliamentary’ option for tomorrow has disappeared.
Is Shadsy still around to tell us why?
32 - FPTP is unfair. Get used to it. The LDs have - just about.
36 - “everyone except certifiable rightwing nutbags”
Rik W was, to be fair, only about eleven at the time.
38. True
31 - Y’all keep in mind, that back in the Spring of 1932 . . . and the Spring of 1992 . . . the air was full of wailings about how the Democrats were throwing away the opportunity of a generation . . . by backing such obvious patsies as Franklin Roosevelt and Bill Clinton!
26:
I agree Martin, the similarities between Brown and Mugabe are chilling. Both champion policies that are devastating to householders (urban demolition, HIPS); both engage in ruthless measures to humiliate and undermine the opposition (the imprisonments of Morgan Tsvangirai, the recruitment of Quentin Davies); both rule nations that were the economic envy of their respective continents till they took over.
28 I rather resent that - a number of PB regulars put ‘peripatetic’, who isn’t a regular poster, right.
31 have you cheered up a bit yet?
42 - but Mugabe was elected leader of his country.
re 16 it shames me to say that we do have external monitors on our elections now.
24. Actually, I think I would have been. I may support the Conservatives, but I try to be fair-minded, hence the reason I don’t automatically support the right in the USA or Italy.
45. It makes me more trusting of the electoral system that outsiders with no stake in it are monitoring it. I think all countries should do it.
36 From 1984, it was clear Mugabe was a brute. But as his brutality was no worse than average in that part of the World, and didn’t at that stage affect our commercial interests, or the British population living there, no one apart from Nicholas Winterton was terribly concerned.
45. What do they think? If our own judges think we’d disgrace a banana republic, what do the international observers think.
This IS very bad news for Hillz. Just because it is so telegenic.
You’ve got her reading her speech - “we had to run under sniperfire” - and then there’s the actual footage of her at the airport, strolling under a silken parasol.
Not good.
But she claims she just “misspoke”. It wasn’t a lie. No. Nor a falsity. Nor a fib. It wasn’t mendacious. Neither was it a porkie. Or an untruth. Or a total whopper.
No, she just “misspoke”.
I must remember this locution, for the taxman, if he queries my receipts. I’ll tell him I “misreturned” my taxes. Or if the wife catches me in bed with another woman, I’ll say it’s alright darling, I just misf***ed her.
Ah, that’s OK then.
I wonder what odds i can get on Mugabe winning?
49 - No, a judge said the practices in one Birmingham council election were akin to a Banana Republic. Not quite the same thing.
31,33 I suggest banning Martin Day from this site.
52. The Tip of a very big ice berg.
How about a compromise and ban him from the Conservative Party?
55. Already banned from the Conservatives or their central organisation.
53. Remember who was offensive first and i still have not forgotten what “stench” said last summer!
33 - I’m not fat and I can spell, so I think I’m ahead of you on both points. Go back to the slow readers class.
56. “stench” was a delibrate spelling as it represents his offerings.
53. Seems a bit harsh. His post at 33 was clearly in jest.
That’s a relief. I was worrying i wouldn’t be able to vote for them.
I notice that Martin rarely posts in the morning and he tends to start some time in the afternoon. His posts get more and more outlandish as the day goes on. i did suggest once that maybe he liked a drink or two, but he wasn’t happy.
52. It’s hard to stop voting fraud completely, I reckon the best thing is to make sure that anyone convicted of cheating spends a good time in the slammer. That Tory councillor has got off pretty lightly compared to Aitken.
56 - I wasn’t offensive, I was expressing the view that people like you put me off this site. Your crass attempt to compare Gordon Brown and Robert Mugabe prompted this. The thread is littered with people calling foul about your offensive childishness you educationally-challenged fool.
Oh good. Another argument about Mr Day’s dyslexia.
57. I’m not fat and I can spell - good for you.
58 - replying to yourself? Or to the voices in your head? Further evidence of your addled mind.
Martin Day, cheers for the entertainment. Comparing the ludicrous British electoral system (which most of my conservative leaning friends don’t want to change, bizarrely) with the widespread fraud of a Zimbabwean election is quite something. Claiming that Gordon Brown has caused “mass suffering” by “destroying the country” is even more amazing. Don’t ban him, give him his own slot on the site I say.
50 - made me laugh out loud, sean. Especially the misf##ked her bit. I might have to repeat that and pass it off as my own work. In order to do so however I will have to introduce this subject matter which will leave most British people entirely cold.
62.educationally-challenged fool: You cannot say an individual is educationally challanged just because their spelling is not so hot.
The thread is littered with people calling foul about your offensive childishness you educationally-challenged fool -
Prick, you mentioned me! Just ignore me and i will ignore you.
61. No i have not been drinking, I don;t always post in the day time as i may be at work or doing something else less important than rattling lefties/ commies and trators cages.
Well, this thread went downhill quickly…
68 - just look back through the thread if you don’t believe me. Your post at 20 has been criticised, ridiculed and rejected - just like you.
66.
but we must remember the state the commies/ socialists and lefties once left the nation. Even in my life time political aggression and attempts at coercing political activity have been attempted by the Labour Party through there firewall: the trade union movement.
68 - “or doing something else less important than rattling lefties/ commies and trators cages”
That’s the problem Martin. The site isnt for rattling people’s cages. As long as you see it as that you’ll remain an anti-social poster. This thread has almost died a death already as a result of your intervention.
71. Now I know you’re talking rubbish. There are no commies or socialists in the Labour party.
70. You should change your name to Stonch’s Troll Beer Blog!
61. Frank - You should go after the other guy/ girl for drinking a beer blog indeed!
ABC reporting that an official of the DNC indicates that Hillary is now taking the ‘Tonya Harding’ option …. ie damaging Obama so decidedly that he’ll not survive the nomination, but knowing she’ll be very badly damaged goods too !!
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/dnc-official-cl.html
73. There are reformed communists though?
75 - Nancy Kerrigan ended up beating Tonya Harding in the Olympics though. But she lost out on the top spot and only took silver…
75. Tonya Harding option - that’s a bit tasteless (it’s alright Jack, you’re just the messenger). Surely Hillary has to think ahead a bit towards the potential fight with McCain? Does she care if Obama loses to the Republicans?
Give her a break! She’s human like the rest of us…she even farts during televised debates!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba97iNBRXGc
This is going to be the big political news story of the week!
http://timesonline.typepad.com/politics/2008/03/why-dont-mps-un.html
You can’t believe MP’s are that stupid.
78. Yes. An Obama loss to McCain would set her up for a run in 2012.
This Tonya Harding thing though. That sounds like a label that could easily enter political discourse.
80. I probably agree with you there. Greedy Pigs sums them up very well indeed.
Seems like the lefties have discovered Mugabe is a blood stained tyrant - just like M.Thatcher said he is.
Next thing you know the lefties will say things were better under Smith in the Rhodesia.
81. She isnt likely to run in 2012, thats why she’s fighting like a woman possesed now.
85. If McCain wins against Obama, why on Earth wouldn’t she? She’s fighting like a woman posessed because she knows Obama would probably beat McCain.
75
A country gets the Leader it deserves.. although I must have done something terribly evil to get Gordon Brown.
Completely O/T but you can get 33/1 from Hills that a competitor will sink in this Saturday’s boat race. I don’t know yet whether either boat will have added buoyancy or pumps fitted, but the forecast is decidedly dodgy. It may be worth a speculative fiver or so.
84 Al Fresco. I think you’ll find that well known ‘leftie’ Rik W bagged that opinion some time back !!
87. At least Clinton is from the U.S, we get some fifth rate turkey from outside England here!
87. Clinton is head and shoulders above Brown - come to think about it Obama would do a better job either!
I think we should have a list of topics which are best left alone on this site. For starters I offer
- Ian Smith and Rhodesia
- The holocaust
- Buggery
as it does nothing to enhance the site whatsoever and tends to make posters of longstanding fall out
23 “12. Voting fraud here is peanuts compared to many countries in the world. Whilst we have to stamp down on it, comparing the UK to Zimbabwe is a bit crass, I feel.”
Not really. In days Before NuLabour, Britain was held to standards. There was accountability. The Law was respected. Police did their jobs.
Now, it is reversed. Electoral Fraud is ignored. A minority Party with absolute power operates with a minority English vote and Foreign Scottish Votes. Corrupt politicians “apologise” for stealing. The BBC actively supports one particular party.
Just like Zimbabwe the inflation rate a lie. Just like Zimbabwe record numbers of natives are escaping.
Today, NuLabour Britain is closer to Mugabe’s Zimbabwe than to 1997 Britain.
91. Indeed. She’s disappointed me horribly in this campaign, but if she does lose out, can we please import her over here?
She’d be entertaining, at least.
92 Paul M. Oh dear … so Kosher Harare arse banditery is a complete non starter then !!
92 Perhaps these could be called non-issues.
Now that you bring up the subject of buggery and the fact Labour legalised the buggery of 16 yr old boys, the thought occured…
why in the name of equality does Labour make things equally worse, instead of equally better?
92. Well thats one thing that does not go on under Mugabe:
- Buggery
Not sure what the current regieme make of the evils of the holocaust and the barbaric acts commited but i am pretty sure that some of the traits of Nazi germany and the hitler dictatorship have mutated into Mugabe’s country. Rather like in Communist russia under the starlinists
There are, it must be admitted, times when the provisional wings of each party (we’ve all got them, sad to say) head on to the site. Best to ignore them, I’ve found - try to have a decent conversation around the buggery. If I can say that …
re 88 also although the best price for the boat race record bet for “No” with Betfair is 1.06 that’s definitely value because with the poor tide forecast for Saturday and the amount of flood water coming down the Thames they’d need an outboard to come close to beating the current record. I’d venture as far as saying that even 1.01 is value in this bet.
84
So if Mugabe is the, ‘Blood stained tyrant’ what M.Thatcher said he is (sic) Then why did she hand power over to him??
Don’t tell me, ‘Cos she was a communist agent all along’
A collegue of mine. who was brought up in Rhodesia,(He wore a Tshirt bearing the legend, ‘Rhodesia is Great’) was convinced that once the Tories came to power that they would never betray their ‘Kith-n-Kin. He would say of Mrs T, She’ll never betray us’ etc. etc. I used to say, ‘Don’t be too sure.’
The day after the, Lancaster House agreement, he came in, slammed down his newspaper and said, ‘That f***ing woman is a communist agent’ I noticed that on his Tshirt the ‘Is’ had been crossed out and replaced with, ‘Was’.
At the end of the day, there was no way, any British government was going to allow a hundred thousand whites, to screw up its relationship with the whole of Black Africa: end of story.
100. Labour would have just issued the whole of Non-White Zimbabwe with a British Passport and have done with it i suppose?
92. Add to Pauls list “hyperbolic claims of how awful Britain has become”. What was that survey released this weekend? Britain the 7th most prosperous and stable nation in the world? Get a grip. Sometimes you think that people want things to be awful, they want something to complain about because for the past fifty years or so we’ve lived in one of the most stable, prosperous and healthy nations on earth. The economy might be in the doldrums at the moment, the government may be a directionless shambles that’s sold out pretty much all the principles the Labour Party was founded on but still…things are pretty good.
102. past fifty years or so we’ve lived in one of the most stable, prosperous and healthy nations on earth -
Maybe the last 30 tops - In the 1970’s people were on about military coups etc.
102. Britain the 7th most prosperous and stable nation in the world?
Depends on what measure you use!
100 Coldstone, I never thought I would agree with a leftie.
Mugabe is a Tyrant and opposed by the conservatives but supported by the left. I’m glad we can all now agree that things were far better under Ian Smith in Rhodesia.
I expect that if Zimbabwe was still Rhodesia, native Africans, including the MAtabeles, would already have the vote - and would probably have had 1 or 2 center left governments by now.
104
Lets see when we last overthrew a Government by force? Or had a foreign army invade.?
Around 1680s iirc William of Orange.
Of course 400 years without a Civil War or an invasion is just a blink of an eye to you sceptics I know…
I disregard the two jacobite rebellions as they were unsuccessful attepts by the Scots to win power. They have since then become more subtel having discovered New Labour and Gordon Brown.. but it’s still not a coup .
105. I expect that if Zimbabwe was still Rhodesia, native Africans, including the MAtabeles, would already have the vote - and would probably have had 1 or 2 center left governments by now.
They would probably have had Buggery legalised by now as well.
102 government may be a directionless shambles that’s sold out pretty much all the principles the Labour Party was founded on but still…things are pretty good.
Thats why, just like during the Irish Potato famine, record numbers of Britons are emmigrating.
Or perhaps because things were pretty good during the Irish Potato Famine?
106 Attempts subtle..apologies.
104
indeed, if we are 7th(which I doubt) , give it 12 months and we will be 50th… by the time Gordo has had the reins of power foribly removed, we will be nearer 75th. The only way is..DOWN (for the forseeable future)
110 forcibly
100 But she was a communist agent. Like Eisenhower, and Reagan.
107, 108, 110 - oh dear!
110. Brown has raped Britainnia of its standing in the world in recent times; particularly in terms of commerce and financial services. He has stolen Britainnia’s reputation and blooded the cloth of the nation with his pompus self congratulatory conciet.
[110] 7th? does anyone believe that?
Remember when England wasnt 19th in the World literacy rankings?
Dont mention Scotland, they are 26th.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=496985&in_page_id=1770
17/18 et al..
“Master Blaster”
Everyone’s feeling pretty
It’s hotter than July
Though the world’s full of problems
They couldn’t touch us even if they tried
From the park I hear rhythms
Marley’s hot on the box
Tonight there will be a party
On the corner at the end of the block
Didn’t know you
Would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
I bet nobody ever told you that you
would be jammin’ until the break of dawn
You would be jammin’ and jammin’ and jammin’, jam on
They want us to join their fighting
But our answer today
Is to let all our worries
Like the breeze through our fingers slip away
Peace has come to Zimbabwe
Third World’s right on the one
Now’s the time for celebration
‘Cause we’ve only just begun
And er finished………
I Hope you’re all still partying, South africa is next
115. I must be Scottish then!
Re. 22, up to a point, as she visited a year after the Dayton Agreement.
Re. 42, re. undermining and humiliating the opposition, you’re joking. As a member of the Labour Party, I felt humiliated and undermined by Davies joining us! The Tories are better off without him. I’ve just seen Davies make a speech in the Iraq debate - when it comes to corpulent, self-satisfied pomposity, and oleaginous unctuousness (or unctuousity?) he’s a match for Keith Vaz.
Re. 92, Pinochet should be added to the list.
113 SBS, you dont really care do you
Come on admit it.
A lot of people get wound up about why Labour does what they do. They think Labour does it by accident, for some other misguided reason.
But when people realise Labour does it deliberately, it all makes perfect sense,
102. I can’t disagree that we have it better than most in this country, prosperity wise, but….
I think as a country we’re very unsure of ourselves at the moment, incredibly uncertain about what’s round the corner and what our identity is anymore.
Britain has been an odd place to live under New Labour.
118. he’s a match for Keith Vaz - Thank you that was funny!!!
The Labour party is at ease with Davies: As a patient is with the plague.
Every time something like this happens, even more people turn away from party politics and turn to alternatives such as the Save Bedford Hospital party:
“The House of Commons Commission, chaired by the Speaker, was today due to release the details of how MPs spend their £23,000 second home allowance. Their lawyer told them there were no grounds for a High Court appeal.
Instead of complying with the Freedom of Information request - affirmed by a Tribunal last month - the Speaker found a new lawyer.
This new second great legal mind - perhaps tempted by the prospect of a fat great fee paid by the taxpayer? - said they could see grounds for appeal and took the case on. Quel surprise. Now the public will foot a hefty bill, probably running into six figures, for a High Court appeal which the Speaker’s original lawyer said they couldn’t win.
The decision was taken after the Commission met informally this morning with 20 minutes notice. Not everyone made it to the meeting.
There is a further twist. MPs wanted to prevent publication because it forces them to disclose their home addresses (already available on the electoral register, and only asked for because some MPs had put their holiday homes down as their “additional home”). The vast majority were not trying to stop the details of their expenses being published. Even the Commission said last week that the principle had been conceeded.
However the Commission’s new lawyer is now challenging the entire decision - rather than just the ruling about addresses - claiming the entire judgement by the Freedom of Information Tribunal was “misdrected”. The High Court challenge aims to scupper the entire judgement.
Asked if there was any recognition that this desperate bid to keep their expenses secret may look bad, a source close to the deliberations said: “No”.
Continue reading “Why don’t MPs understand it looks worse when they try and hide things” »
Sam Coates (The Times)
120. Britain has been an odd place to live under New Labour.
The Nightmare will soon be over!
110: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3613926.ece
Look, we live in the industrialised west. Our problems are nothing compared to, y’know, the third world. This kind of hyperbole from the right does political discourse no favours at all.
[116] “Peace has come to Zimbabwe”
Well, that was a lie wasnt it.
Peace does not mean the absence of War.
122. You do know that MP’s get lower salaries than MEP’s or are you not worried anymore?
Hey ho, looks as if we’d all better trip over to Guido’s for calm measured discussion tonight
122. “Asked if there was any recognition that this desperate bid to keep their expenses secret may look bad, a source close to the deliberations said: “No”.”
*Shakes head in disbelief*.
Look, we live in the industrialised west-
I thought Labour always said Britains industry had gone prior to 1997? Under Labour another 1 million jobs have gone overseas whilst another 1 million plus immigrants have moved here. Does that mean if we have less manufacturing jobs we are not industralised and therefore a third world country?
129: You know what I mean by “industrialised”, don’t attempt to be clever, it doesn’t suit a man of your limited mental capacity.
53 - I’m generally against banning things, but I do think that some people would benefit in the long run from a words-per-day limit, to concentrate the mind - perhaps 50 in this case.
On topic Hilary’s 35 years of experience was always her achilles heel - she has inflated her CV based a couple of terms as an elected official otherwise its years of activism and marriage to a Governor & then President. This isn’t the only story (her huge input to bringing peace to Northern Ireland being another). What is really stupid over this one is that it was queried with her and her spokesman before she made last weeks speech and yet she went out and embroided it some more.
Off topic - Thatcher was convinced by the Foreign Office that Muzorewa would most probably win the post Lancaster House Conference. There is a revealing bit in Sir John Nott’s story of the post Falkland debate where afterwards he and Carrington faced the assembled Conservative MPs - he admits he got off lightly because Carrington was attacked more over Zimbabwe than the Falklands, both being seen as failures under his watch.
105
Mugabe is a Tyrant and opposed by the conservatives but supported by the left. I’m glad we can all now agree that things were far better under Ian Smith in Rhodesia.
Are you in denial? it was the, ‘right’ that handed power to Mugabe, not the left. The man who has probably,’opposed’ Mugabe the most is Peter Tatchell, because of Zimbabwe’s persecution of homosexuals.
127 - There are a few people who deliberately try to stifle discussion by making bizarre claims and trolling by raising subjects which they know will cause friction. ‘Enemies of free discussion’ if you like.
They haven’t got a brain cell between them so it’s best just to let them get on with it and have a laugh when reading the ensuing mess later on - that’s what I do.
One of them changes names but seeing as they post on the same subjects and at similar times they aren’t exactly MI5 material.
133 Yep, i agree. Peter Tatchell is a modern day hero.
I must admit that during my youth, he gave me the creeps. I remember some story about him invading church services with condom covered crucifixes saying I want Jesus in me. If it wasnt him, I withdraw and apologise.
But, yep, for some years, I’ve admired Tatchel as a principaled, honest, brave and decent man.
135 - “Tatchel as a principaled, honest, brave and decent man.”
Yes, and he may split the anti-Labour vote, and get Andrew Smith re-elected in Oxford East come the next election. ;(
134. Yes we are the remnents of the third reich! I change my name all the time. We want to stiffle your debate to ensure other bills on buggery do not get through the passage of power.
130. You know what I mean by “industrialised”, don’t attempt to be clever, it doesn’t suit a man of your limited mental capacity.
by Alex March 25th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Great, just for the record i have an IQ of 137 - two degrees and a host of other measures of mental capacity. Obviously your mental misses that most important quality: A sense of humour! I’ll let you into a secret a sense of humour gets you a long way!
136 If he gets a seat, I’m ok by that. It would be a long time coming but makes up for LibDems “Straight Choice” Bermondsey campaign.
It would be just if Simon Hughes lost his seat in the same year.
But perhaps if he had won those 25 odd years ago, he would be just another obediant Labour MP with little value except PM vote fodder. Yes PM. No PM.
Perhaps the years in the wildernes made him.
138. Obviously your mental misses - sorry should say:
Obviously your mental capacity misses
Sometimes I find PB rather baffling, tonight is one such time.
God Bless Mike, you have enormous courage reading all the posts on here. It will be lovely when Peter the Punter returns and we have some useful inputs.
Malcolm
139. You never know maybe if Robert Mugabe “wins” in Zimbabwe he will send a delegation of Zimbabwe style election helpers to give Tatchell a hand! Mugabe would probably like Tatchell to become a real pain in the arse to whoever wins the next election in this country.
This has become an awful thread.
143. Bedways is bestways methinks
OT:
(a pedant writes: OT? Tonight? I don’t think you needed that proviso)
ISTR that David Herdson’s got a 5/2 on England in the cricket. Well, Monty’s just got a five-for and New Zealand are in the tail. Seven wickets down, and with their Number 11 being a famous walking wicket, two more and it’s effectively over.
139 - Tatchell (once mispelt in the Guardian as “Thatchell”) has no chance of being elected. His candidature benefits Labour.
Mike - this thread not a great advert for pb.com. Will you have a think about how to avoid this going forward?
Hilary’s inconsistencies are the sort of thing that can be pushed away by a candidate on the up and who comes into the political arena with a record of credibility on veracity. But Clinton is on the way down, and her behaviour is all too reminiscent of the worst years of the Clintons. Her only chance was the possibility of offering something that built on the Clinton record while being a distinctive break in style from both it and the Bush years; a positive campaign based on solid policies and focused on issues like the economy. She cannot win a personality contest with Obama.
On Topic:
I really think that Hilary should go for the suspension scenario that Morus and I discussed earlier - better all round, and at this rate, better odds for her to become president (suspend campaign, allow Obama to be nominee presumptive, superdelegates get opportunity to assess in August whether Republican attacks/potential scandals or cockups have made him an electoral albatross (estimated at a handwavy 5% or so) and can then make an informed decision of whether to exercise their override powers. Increases chances of Democrat victory in November for whichever candidate is chosen)
149 - It’d be better for the party as a whole, certainly - but the risk of her claims simply disintegrating in the period between now and the convention would be considerable.
I see the Tory councillor who said that women on benefits should be sterilised has resigned.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1310637,00.html
An interesting by-election.
136
Pay back time for Bermondsey?
re 141 well I’ve given you some rowing tips above
152 - that is possible. But I think Tatchell is too decent a man to see it that way.
141. Malcolm. Hear, hear. Bring back PtP from his Spanish exile.
On topic. I find it increasingly improbable that Clinton can win the Democratic candidacy or prove to be either a unifying or effective candidate. If somehow she manages to gain the nomination she will be so tainted by the process that I would make her significant odds against for the Presidency. I am not brave enough to put any more money down to support this view but I think it’s time for the Democratic party Greybeards to bring this to a close. It is becoming increasingly corrosive and self destructive.
155,
Totally OT (but at least mildly entertaining), anyone with any experience of wikipedia (or even most online forums …) might enjoy this little story that I’ve just stumbled across:
Wikihistory
A wikipedia/timetravel crossover story …
113
SBS
Its all very well to say Oh dear, this could equally be applied to the stewardship of the British economy. Prudence has been proved to be a sham, the National debt is appaling as is the PBBR.
If the economy grows at less than what Alsatair Darling has intimated, PSBR could overshhot by a wide margin, and what then??? It’s either more tax or cuts in spending plans. Given that Darling’s projection is highly optimistic, methinks its going to be painful, both for Labour and the electorate.
I have been staggered at the incompetence of the Clinton campaign. The smears, the tears, and the spin have been utterly laughable.
I had thought that Clinton would win until fairly recently, and would have been pleased at that outcome. Would not be pleased now. Obama may still be a fairly untested quantity, but that is more appealing that dear Hillary.
There is now next to no chance of Hillary getting the nomination. And if perchance she did, I think the whole party would be so depressed that getting Democrats to go and vote in November would be hard and may let McCain win.
For the good of your family, your party and your country - and the rest of us, quit Hillary while you can still save some face.
157 - you may well have a good point to make, but it is lost in your assertion that we will soon be the 50th most prosperous country in the world (down from seventh).
[159] Who is to say what is possible. China and India are in the ascendency. Who next?
If you believe inflation is 2%, you probably also believe Britain is the 7th most prosperous.
It isnt how much you earn, it is how much you can buy.
159
fair point… touch of hyperbole, would it have passed muster if I had said 20th
Well done Martin Day for completely ruining a thread. Partisanship is one thing, although it might cause problems at least it is serious and can add something to the debate by putting forward another perspective. Your contributions though are inane and childish. More importantly they are inconsiderate to people who want a grown-up chat about politics, and will drive some away from posting. If you want to be infantile there are plenty of other places on the web to do so.
151 - re: Tory councillor - John Ward
safe enough Tory seat; should retain
http://www.medway.gov.uk/index/council/elections/elections2007/votes2007/59948.htm
160 - But the relative decline of the British economy would have to be huge, relative the global growth levels, for such a decline to take place. We’d have to assume that Britain would have to underperform global growth to a massive extent. Industrializing nations take decades to establish a broad platform for growth, as China and India have done - and are still highly dependent on a healthy demand from fully-developed countries such as ours.
162
Thank you, Kierran, for your wise post.
158 SBS
I agree entirely. H Rodham Clinton has a 5% chance of getting the nomination and if she does a 5% chance of beating McCain. As for your final comment, I’m not too sure that she reads PB on a regular basis.
Malcolm
157 - Our national debt is not high compared to international standards, and it is lower than it was in 1997 as a percentage of GDP. On this measure debt is also lower than Japan, Italy, France, Canada and Germany. We are about level with the US. Hardly disastrous.
You are right that there are upside risks with the Treasury projections and the government may have to borrow much more than it plans if the world economy dives. However it would likely be no worse than under Lamont. Again, there is a lack of proportion. Yes the government has arguably spent too much (although at least a lot of that has gone on investment), but it has made very few macro-economic mistakes in the last 11 years.
On Clinton. Her campaign has not been great but it has not been disastrous either. Those who think she has thrown it away are wrong in the sense that she was never inevitable in the way the CW suggested. Given the mistakes her campaign has made she has done remarkably well. She is losing the PV 48/49 - 51/52, hardly a big margin. If the Dem rules were the same as the GOP she would likely now be the nominee.
POP QUIZ: Who said (in a famously squeaky voice)
“We stand at Armageddon and we battle for the Lord!”
And why did he say it?
165. Malcolm. I agree that Hillary’s chances of getting the nomination are in the order of 5 %. I would rate closer to 10 %. If nominated then I would rate her a 30-40% chance of winning. So her best % chance of being President in my book is 10%x40%= 4% = 24/1. You rate her chances at 5%x5%= 0.25% = 399/1.
So there is value laying Hillary for the Presidency for both of us. If you are right it’s virtually free money because the risk of losing is tiny. Have you bet accordingly?
Government majority cut to 28 on Iraq enquiry debate
166.”157 - Our national debt is not high compared to international standards, and it is lower than it was in 1997 as a percentage of GDP. On this measure debt is also lower than Japan, Italy, France, Canada and Germa