Will May 1st resolve whether Toffs are electable?
March 31st, 2008
Could the City Hall outcome be a marker for Downing Street?
If London ITV is following its normal pattern then either today or tomorrow we should see a new opinion poll of voters in the capital on the London mayoralty. The organisation commissioned a YouGov survey at the end of every month since December and let us hope that it is following the normal pattern.
I took last week’s news, which wasn’t as far as I know denied, that Downing Street thought that Ken was going to be beaten as a sure sign that Labour’s private polling was confirming that Boris was ahead by a substantial margin - a fortnight ago YouGov had it at 12%.
So the evidence is mounting that the Tories will take City Hall in four and a half week’s time and certainly this is how punters are seeing it. The latest betting has Boris at 0.47/1.
But the mayoral race is, after all, only a local election. The big question is whether it will tell us anything about the general election and whether, in particular, being a “Toff” is no longer an electoral liability.
Certainly conventional wisdom in the Tory party has been that going to Eton and Oxbridge, like Boris and Dave, could alienate voters and, indeed, this was said to be one of the main reasons in 1990 why Douglas Hurd’s leadership bid floundered.
This view has been shared by many in the Labour party - just look at the way it has sought to portray both Johnson and Cameron. Only a month ago at the party’s spring conference Boris coming from Eton and “being posh” were a key part of the anti-Johnson rhetoric. This might fire up the activists but if it is shown not to impact on elections then other lines of attack on Cameron will need to be emphasised.
In the general election betting I can see a Tory victory on May 1st prompting an even stronger move to the Tories - but a lot could happen in the next month.
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Is 0.47 still good value for Boris do you think?
re 1. Yes.
Has there ever been an election which the Tories have lost where five weeks before the the vote the party or their candidate enjoyed a 12% lead? I can think of examples where Labour in similar circumstances lost - but not the Tories.
There can always be a first time for everything.
But doesn’t approximately 0.5 mean that its rated as only a 2/3rds chance Boris will win. That seems like remarkably generous odds.
The answer to your question depends on how real that lead is. I suspect it isn’t that high and things will narrow.
On last night’s news, here in Australia, the news from the UK was how bad our youth is and the T5 baggage crisis. Our overseas reputation falls even further.
2. I agree with your general point, but my experience of elections in the US are that polls for elections where your vote is mainly about an individual candidate are far, far more volatile than those where your vote is mainly about the party’s image. Thus comparing this mayoral election with parliamentary races might put you at more risk than you imagine. Just a thought.
On the main topic, the problem with the toff argument being used against Boris, is that it has two sides of it.
The first side is an emotional one: that those bloody rich people are into snooty things like polo and posh wines and such, and they don’t speak like the rest of us. This undoubtedbly plays far better against Johnson than it does against, say, Cameron.
But the second side is the intellectual cover for making the argument. This is that these people have got to their position unfairly because their parents’ money and connections have opened doors for them their whole lives. This isn’t true for Boris - he’s largely a self-made guy who went to a free school and then got a scholarship for Eton from his own hard work.
Incidentally, where is that picture from? It sounds like class warfare at its nastiest. Protesting at people’s private homes because they are rich? What pure spite.
5 Yes, certainly the ugliest, most offensive picture ever to feature at the top of a PB.com thread.
5,6 re picture: another question is whether it might jeopardise pb’s “safe for work” status.
Zimbabwe Opposition win 4 seats out of the first 6 declared…
re Douglas Hurd.
He was a Toff of the old school. He simply looked well past his sell by date. In contrast, John Major seemed to have something new to offer (don’t snigger at the back there).
Labour activists may still be fighting the class war, but most people couldn’t care less.
Class Warfare?
How many so-called Tory toffs can afford the £1.7 million spent on Mick Martin’s home or to enjoy his expenses-fuelled standard of living?
[8] A busy day for Miliband, methinks:
http://www.swradioafrica.com/news300308/military300308.htm
Actually, it’ll be the ANC’s biggest test since it came to power in South Africa. If it allows a military coup in Zimbabwe, there’ll surely be a massive crisis in RSA as the white and Asian communities will draw their own conclusions.
11 If it [the ANC] allows a military coup in Zimbabwe
Exactly how are you suggesting the ANC should react to such a coup?
There are a few loose ends and unanswered questions on the subject of Scottish (& Welsh) independence from the previous threads -
1) The status of Scotland within the EU, is that under the Vienna Conventions Scotland & remaining UK (RUK) as the ‘Successor States’ will be covered by all existing agreements, treaties etc unless they choose to rengotiate - in other words the Scottish land, people, economy etc are already in the EU and would have to negotiate to leave - not the other way around. (although I accept it is a bit more complicated than that and some negotiations will be required)
2) Following on from the above point Spain (& others) can not object to Scottish independence - only to the details of voting rights & representation.
3) SNP vote does not equate to independence vote but is s good indicator of underlying support. I think Scotland vote agianst independence in a first referendum, but that will win a following one within 10 years.
4)Re Wales, if Scotland gets independence Wales will probably follow within 5-10 years - will actually be much easier than Scotalnd who will set all of the neccesary precedents.
5)Without Scotland, the case for Northern Ireland remaining in the UK looks shaky and I see a United Ireland being a logical conclusion in the same timescale.
Re: the picture. It is rather a robust Focus leaflet isn’t it? I am not sure it will have gone down that well in Richmond-on-Thames.
Incidentally and way O/T - certain bookies are giving odds of 40/1 on Wales winning next RWC - that is very good value - I would put real odds nearer 12/1 at the moment but that could come tumbling down next year - get some money on now!
Mike - sorry if I’m missing something but where exactly is this picture from? It doesn’t really appear to convey anything other than mindlessness - not a modicum of wit. Therefore I cannot believe it is connected to any of the major parties. Is it some fringe group leaflet, or some sort of anarcho-socialist splinter group?
As with most things in politics, there are very few barriers to anyone being elected, from any background, providing they go about it in the right way, have the necessary skills and get something of a favourable wind.
As such, both Cameron and Boris, as ‘toffs’, have to find a way of dealing with that perceived negative. Cameron has done so through policy, driving a move leftwards, to the centre on social and environmental policy, and so negating problems he would face were the Conservatives to champion much more individualist policies. Boris has adopted a more personal way of dealing with it, by coming across as a man of the people, railing against the things that the average man in the street gets annoyed by and generally appearing to be more in touch than Ken is. I don’t think either of these approaches are acts, by the way, but it was and is necessary for both to be seen to deal with the toff issue in some way.
To me, one of the interesting aspects of the respective approaches employed by Boris and Dave is that they seem quite similar to the way Macmillan behaved as leader of the Conservatives. Macmillan was of course the last ‘toff’ to win an election for the Tories. Of course, those were different times but perhaps already ones when being in touch with the average man was an issue that leaders needed to address, especially when they came from wealthy families.
The contrast with Douglas Hurd is an interesting one. He was also from the upper strata of British society but chose to deal with this in the 1990 leadership election by trying to downplay it. It was a game he couldn’t hope to win against the self-made millionare Heseltine, never mind against the much humbler background of John Major.
13. The support for Scottish independence goes up and down more or less in line with the price of crude oil, and the expected revenue from ‘Scottish oil’. With oil prices so high, it is highly likely that support for independence will increase, but neither will stay high for that long.
15. Never underestimate the ability of the Welsh and the Kiwis to mess things up at a rugby world cup.
I think Tyson summed it up well a few threads back with the who would you rather have a beer with?
Brown or Cameron?
Ken or Boris?
We live in a parliamentary democracy, but a significant amount of people who vote in GE do so because they like that nice Mr Blair or charming Mr Cameron and vote for the candidate of the party they lead.
re 5. The polling history of London mayoral elections saw a massive over-statement of Ken’s suppport in 2000 and a corresponding large understatement for Norris. The best poll then put the Tory on 17%. He actually came in with 27%. Livingstone was more than 10% down on his worst poll rating.
In 2004 YouGov were polling for the first time and on the same measure as the 2008 series in its final survey got the actual result to within 1%.
One quick comment on the London mayorality and polling. It is unlikely that anyone will win on first preferences alone (though this might be worth a market - any suggestions of the odds? 5/1-ish that Boris might do it?). The election will then go to redistribute second preferences of the candidates finishing third and lower. Any poll trying to measure these second preferences will have huge margins of error compared to the sample sizes, which will further complicate accurate predicions.
20 Thanks Mike.
Where did that nasty picture come from?
There will come a time in the history of any long term government, when it will be able to do no right, and the opposition can do no wrong.
Whether Mr Cameron is a toff or not at the moment does not matter, people are voting against and not for. If and when Mr Cameron becomes PM, then being a toff, will be one of the reasons, why everybody will hate him.
Tim Hames in the Times, believes the, ‘real winner’ in London will be the BNP.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/tim_hames/article3648815.ece
It was telling that no one denied the Times story that Mike mentions above. How much support is Ken going to get from labour this time out. He did not need it in 2000, but how significant was it 2004?
18. The support for Scottish independence goes up and down more or less in line with the price of crude oil, and the expected revenue from ‘Scottish oil’
It’s Shetland’s oil dammnit! Goddamn Glaswegians spunging off Shetland’s wealth.
RE the last thread about Aberdeen, if the Tories were to win Aberdeen South, that would be a quadruple shot of vodka for me (personal constituency plus Tory gain in a no-hoper).
If the LibDems run ACC, then they definitely suck. Never trust a Liberal Democrat to run a set of traffic sets. After what they’ve done in Stoneywood, they deserve to be turfed out without pension. Unfortunately, the Stoneywood queues started after the last locals (curious ain’t it?) so we have to wait four years, possible five if the elections are de-coupled. In the mean time more queuing. Do we even have a councillor accountable to Stoneywood with this new-fangled STV?
re 22. I originally dug the picture out to illustrate the MP housing allowance row where the Speaker’s case is that addresses should be kept confidential.
19. “I think Tyson summed it up well a few threads back with the who would you rather have a beer with…?”
I didn’t see that but I hope the answer was ‘Brown’ and ‘Ken’? If anyone wants a drink with a Cameron identikit just call up any ad agency and say you have some sofa’s to sell and they’ll have you in their boardroom-glass in hand-before you can say April Fool!
Fine poster Mike! So retro that it could make a comeback. It would certainly strike a chord though New labour have probably moved to far to the right to bnefit. It would be good for Ken though.
2
If Mike is referring to the 12% lead that Labour had during the 1970 campaign. That particular poll, (If memory serves) appeared in the Sunday Times, the Sunday prior to polling day, it was an STP poll i.e. carried out by Sunday Times staff and, ‘not’ a regular polling organisation.
That picture is far below PB’s usual standards.
Just like with Ken, it’s class warfare in a way that this country hasn’t seen for decades. Labour are trying to stoke the working class fires in the hope that they will turn on the Conservatives, instead of attacking their policies.
http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com
27. Of course a drink with Brown on the other hand would end up with you paying for every round which would involve a lo of spillage with him thumping the bar.
However do continue the class war Roger. Shame no one is interested outside the bitter and deranged.
re 28 A Gwent by election poll in 2006 by NOP put Labour 12% ahead. They went on to lose by 10%
Roger,
Thats poor, even by your standards. Couldn’t have a beer with Darling as he his currently banned from all pubs!!
I thought the picture at the top of the page was designed by Simon Heffer.
16. “It doesn’t really appear to convey anything other than mindlessness - not a modicum of wit. Therefore I cannot believe it is connected to any of the major parties.”
A-ha-ha, very good.
“Labour activists may still be fighting the class war, but most people couldn’t care less”
I think you are looking at ‘class war’ too narrowly. The Great British public can still be motivated by injustice and if Tory opponents can make the connection between priviledge and promotion or even better patronage then I it could gain some traction. I expect Boris to be very helpful in this.
36 There are as many people who like toffs as despise them, though.
There are probably is some resentment towards the super rich, but neither Cameron nor Johnson fall into that category. They’re basically upper middle class, shading into the aristocracy.
Coldstone 23. The picture is incredibly offensive for this site-”being a toff- why everyone will hate him” Is this what you wrote about Blair , who went to the Scottish Eton and now has his nose well and truly in the trough? What a hypocrite you are.
YouGov share up 4% on good results. Now employ over 400 people.
Hello all,
This poster is a very nasty piece of propaganda and no mainstream party would do this. To link it with Labour is just poor. I love the “chinless wonder” Cameron pose though.
Looks like that swine Mugabe is trying to hang on in Zimbabwe. Why can’t we just shoot him or something? I’m only half joking!
I think you need to look at whole man or woman. Hurd went to Eton but he was also, whatever he was like in private, seen as stiff, aloof and intellectual. I don’t think his school was the main issue, or at most it became the peg on which to hang all the other concerns. Blair, Clegg, Cameron and Johnson all went to elite schools and elite universities but they all seem more approachable, better company and more in tune with modern attitudes than say Brown.
38
You obviously missed my point! If and when Cameron becomes PM, and as is the way of these things, things start to go wrong, (they will) being a ‘toff’ will be used against him, ‘Lord Snooty’ etc. I’m afraid thats the way of the world!
Brown’s, ‘Scottishness’ is often referred to on this site in a derogatory manner, Kinnock, was referred to as the ‘Welsh Windbag’ etc.
Blair may have gone to Fettes, but he was not a ‘Toff’ his father was working-class, who after war service, (a commission) qualified as a solicitor, then became a lecturer in law. Blair’s toffisness rating would therefore be a little on the low side.
As for the picture, lighten up, Cameron will get worse than that if and when he becomes PM.
40. Why half joke. Should have shot him years ago. Would have saved a lot of lives.
36. labour has completely ignored the ‘class struggle’ for years now, trying to re-ignite it because it suits them won’t work. The offensive at the spring conference did nothing apart from help Cameron and Boris push even further ahead in the polls.
40 We’ll know if Mugabe is gone if Mengistu turns up in China. The ex-Ethiopian dictator has been heavily involved advising CIO & on police repression. He has even more to fear than Comrade Bob if Zimbabwe has a change of regime.
Playing the class card might work if the guy was thick as pig-sh1t and being parachuted into power to laud it over us mere plebs. But that just doesn’t resonate with people’s view of Cameron. The images of him at home, being a parent, or on a stage giving a wide ranging speech without auto-cue - these don’t jive with some braying no-neck aristo. Now, that may be down to some clever PR work to project that image - but at least it has to acknowledge he has some savvy.
Labour will come seriously unstuck if they try and suggest that just because you come from Eton you are ruled out of being part of modern Britain - but just because you come from Estonia you are welcomed in. They may be toffs, but damnit, they’re our toffs!
28. I recall a poll before the 1970 election giving Labour a 12%lead. However, I believe it was published on the Friday evening before polling day when I heard it on the radio as a drove home from work.
Some are born Toff’s, some achieve Toffness, and some have Toffness thrust upon them!
46
Isn’t Boris a sort of ‘Turk’ ?
40. The attitudes on today’s picture seem perfectly in line with those expressed by a number fo Labour-leaning posters on this site.
Is being a toff a liability anymore? Not, I think, since Richard Curtis’ recent films.
I don’t mind toffs - if crycinogenic technology could be used to resurrect Ian Gilmour and Francis Pym to lead the next Conservative government, I’d be delighted (though I disagreed with their views on Europe).
Some Labour activists, like myself, are not interested in fighting the class war. I think all the inverted snobbery risks reminding people of Old Labour’s dislike of aspiration, and the last Labour government’s 83% and 98% tax rates, not to mention closing the direct grant schools, one of the most outstandingly spiteful and damaging policies introduced by any postwar government. Why did so many people dislike John Prescott? Apart his general oafishness, rudeness and boorishness, it was largely because he came over as a man who was less interested in elevating the condition of the workers than tearing other people down, a man in thrall to malign chippiness, a man whose attitude to public service reform was summed up by his immortal line that the trouble with opening a good school was that everyone would want to go there (!)
As for Boris Johnson, I’d have thought there’d far more mileage to be gained from targetting his support for total bus deregulation (so disastrous for bus users outside London) than his background. Even the Major government kept a limited form of regulation in London, not out of the goodness of its heart, but for fear of the electoral consequences.
Are our core voters going to be impressed by inverted snobbery? I doubt it’ll make up for the abolition of the 10p rate of tax.
Coldstone.Blair’s parents have nothing to do with it-They were staunch Tories who could afford to educate their chidren at “Eton”. This makes them neither better nor worse- just succesful.When Blair was heavily cricised,being a “Toff” was not used against him- Cameron will have to rely on his merits,which relative to the current front bench are impressive.If you wonder why “hypocrisy” is an issue, just re-read your posts over the last 12 months.
50
Anybody who ‘leans to the left’ should have no problem with Mr Cameron’s background, after all the most ‘Left wing’ PM this country ever had, Harold Macmillan’ had a very similar background to Mr Cameron’s. It is the, ‘Right’ who have most to fear, as Mr Cameron, has turned the Tory Party into Blue Labour.
Ask that nice Mr Heffer!!
19 - it’s wildly unscientific, but I do sometimes wonder just how many people do vote on that sort of basis.
A night out with Dave & Boris would be a thousand times more fun than Gordon & Ken. Of course, most people will apply a slightly more rigorous mental selection process than that (and I imagine some people would be actually prefer the latter pair to the former as a result of that) - but it’d be fascinating to learn just what proportion of people do decide in that kind of way…
For the avoidance of confusion, the picture at the top of this thread was not produced by Hazel Blears. It comes from a website run by Ian Bone, former leader of the anarchist/self-publicist/care-in-the-community group, Class War. They did hold a ‘march’ in Notting Hill last November. It was attended by a couple of dozen drunken punks, Kevin-the-teenager style malcontents and ageing class warriors and achieved precisely nothing.
http://bashtherich.wordpress.com
Theres no need for me to visit pb again.
bye.
Mike. The picture does you no credit- I think you should withdraw it and offer it to Guido where it belongs.
O/T - Wall Street Journal reports eight more super delegates for Obama:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120692054573175525.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news
51. Ironic that left leaning Richard Curtis has made it acceptable for so called ‘tory toffs’ be accepted by the electrate.
There is or used to be an anarchist group called “Class War” - presumably it’s from them. Unpleasant in all the ways described above.
I’ve never thought the toff thing had (or indeed should have) much mileage. Insofar as there’s anything in it, the ‘accusation’ is that someone who has had a privileged background *and* has made little or no subsequent effort to explore other types of life is unlikely to understand or sympathise with people in difficulty. The inverse was evident with David Blunkett - because he’d obviously had a tough life in all sorts of ways, people cut him more slack than they would have for a slick careerist (but not much more as we have a pretty unforgiving climate for politicians of any background).
Boris and David Cameron seem to me to be rather different cases. Boris’s appeal is that many people see him as good fun - irreverent, says what he thinks, doesn’t care if people are offended, it’s just a jolly jape. It was risky to put him up for Mayor because that’s a semi-serious job, but people seem inclined not to worry about that (Kilroy-Silk, who affects to be posh, got elected as MEP on much the same basis). Cameron’s appeal is that he has a pleasant manner and seems different from classic politicians like, say, Davis. I don’t think that either of them are really seen *primarily* as posh in the way that Alec Douglas-Home was.
57
Please note it is the, ‘right’ attempting censorship, so much for libertarian beliefs.
p.s.
If you have picture of GB having sex with a goat, please display it, I’ll have a good laugh at that too.
pps
If you haven’t got one, give us a call!!
40 - “To link it with Labour is just poor”
And yet oddly enough,at least two of the Labour supporting regulars above echo these exact sentiments.
Mike S, bad picture choice, and quite unnecessary for this site.
I do think people are being utterly humourless about the picture this morning. It’s a piece of old nonsense, probably knocked up by a disgruntled Old Harrovian who joined the Socialist Workers at LSE but will shortly embark on a career in banking and leave his “rebellious” days behind. Don’t take it so seriously.
57. Gross generalisation from you there but why break the habit of a lifetime? Personally I think its a great picture to show as it sums up Labour and Kens’ policy failed approach to David and Boris.
The picture and Rogers smirking and unpleasant endorsment above sums up the the self-regarding hypocricy of the left. They just don’t get that all but the stripped down core have moved on and that it is now the Labour party that is disliked.
And they have the bare faced audacity to try and call the ‘Conservatives’ the nasty party.
I had thought that Boris mentioned on tv that his grandfather was a former Ottoman interior minister who was hanged or lynched c. 1921.
The picture
Come on guys. I found the picture after doing a Google search on the term “Tory Toffs” - the subject of this thread.
It’s there because it does represent how some people feel and this is not a million miles away from things that were said at Labour’s spring conference.
The other one I could have used was this -
http://londonclasswar.org/newswire/media/3/20071008-DSC02340.JPG
I think the people calling for Mike to take down the picture are missing the point. We all know it’s a piece of hateful propaganda but Mike is highlighting this legitimately because it is the purest distillation of the kind of class war venom that some Labour ministers think might be effective against Cameron and Boris. Go and read Blears and Balls’ speeches at the Labour spring conference: they are spiteful and pander to class prejudice in the hope of winning an electoral advantage.
67. and were both miserable failures.
66 - Actually, that linked picture is a real classic.
The Boris ancestry is much discussed here.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200803270025
54,
I don’t think we will ever really know. Probably a lot more than most people would admit.
Just as I was laughing out loud at the usual puffballs indignation at the unflattering picture of ‘Dave’ along comes the first ‘walk-out’.
Well done ‘lurk’ 56!!
[12] Peter, I would hope that the South African government would put pressure on Mugabe to stand down, if he’s lost. There’s all sorts of pressure, of course.
[23] The article Coldstone links to says that 5% will get the BNP one seat on the London Assembly, 8% two and 11% three. (It’s only contesting one of the fourteen constituencies IIRC.) As to Boris’s chances, I’d've thought a first-round victory was no more than a 5-2 shot.
One possible scenario of a Boris mayoralty (assuming he doesn’t stay off the sauce, which he probably should, on the evidence of the campaign): a neo-racist Borisism leads to a congratulatory motion from the BNP Assembly-persons and the Tories having to vote against their own Mayor’s mouth… is there a “keep Boris dry” campaign? (Yes, I know about Ken’s drinking, everyone knows about it.)
Personally, I dont think the picture is a problem, class prejujice such as this will do Labour no end of damage.
I’m with Mike. Toffness may well be an issue at the next general election, and is already at the London Mayoral. The poster was in the public domain and illustrated one, perhaps extreme, side of the argument.
Some on here are being a bit over sensitive.
The picture is deeply offensive. It’s far too early to be seeing him so close up.
66. Don’t worry Mike. Anything that gets the old women on this site squalking can’t be a bad thing. They might take Ena Sharples advice to ‘Just look at themselves’!
I think the picture’s quite offensive… but I also agree that it accurately sums up many Labour people’s thinking towards Cameron (and indeed Boris). Shouting “Death to the aristos!” like Chris Barrie in Blackadder the Third isn’t going to win them anything other than contempt.
O/T. The FT has a prediction game - hideously (and unnecessarily) complicated but includes markets in Politics as well as finance. http://www.ftpredict.com/
75 - Some people are oversensitive, for me I just think it might be a day early!
Mike, please could you use the photo the next time you need “Fourteen Daves” or whatever the number might be?
It seems that the banned list does not apply to images placed by the site owner.
As a parasite may I say I find it deeply offensive to be compared to a mere Tory toff !!
Parasites of the World Unite, you have nothing to lose but your hosts !!
I have no problem with the poster. Mainly as it says more about the people who produced it, than anything it purports to say about David Cameron.
[83] Indeed. As I understand it, my purpose in the great scheme of things is to provide a cosy home for the e coli in my stomach.
66. Quite right Mike. The sentiments in the picture are exactly those which have been articulated (sic) by the cheerleaders of New Labour since the very beginning - the Balls, Drapers and Whelans of this world.
If some posters are uncomfortable with being confronted with the bare reality of their nasty prejudices, perhaps they might want to reconsider their positions rather than ’shooting the messenger’.
12 73
South Africa could shut down Zimbabwe tomorrow - or rather what’s left of Zimbabwe.
About 80% of electricity comes from SA.
I have every confidence SA will go the way of Zimbabwe - they are working hard on it although the presence of Nelson Mandela is putting a damper on progress.
I would be very surprised if SA intervened: it has enough refugees from Zimbabwe already.
77 - Roger, it’s one thing to approve of the use of an image as an illustration of a phenomenon (which I do) and quite another to approve of the bigotry in that image (as you do). Attacking people because of their background, parents, school, etc - all of which they have no control over - is as morally reprehensible as attacking someone for their ethnic origins.
You must have a lot hate inside you.
That picture is totally unoffensive and wonderful propaganda for the Conservatives.
67
Talking of Balls, (talking balls) looks like Ed. is now one of Cameron’s gurus.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/03/ed_balls_the_new_tory_economic.html
I just find the entire class war attack from labour as quite funny. They’ve destroyed a great deal of their working class roots in order to get elected, now things aren’t going too well labour are trying to repair them (more so in scotland). I doubt it’ll work, most of their former voters have moved onto other parties, or just don’t vote.
41 - Worth remembering that as a ’son of the manse’ Brown himself would have come from a pretty select and prominent section of society, ok so it’s all relative compared to the conventional affluence of the likes of Johnson, Cameron and Blair… but Brown was the son of the most important person in his community and as such enjoyed a fair degree of social status himself.
Jeepers creepers- the puritanical brigade shouting down Mike for using this picture. One reason why I would hate the idea of the Tories getting back into power, they bring with them this pious, often hypocritical, pompous morality. Thingy Whitehouse, section 28, video nasties, back to basics, censorship galore. At the heart of Toryism is this staunch illiberalism, yet behind closed doors they are more debauched and degenerate than the rest of us.
Re; the Eton thing- I guess it is similar to Brown’s Scottishness. It riles the other side more than the punters in general. I think though an Alan Johnson with a great life story, and being a much better media performer than lumbering Gords could get some political mileage out of the toffness factor.
At the moment lumbering Gords couldn’t get political advantage out of a brown paper bag so it doesn’t really matter where Cameron comes from, he will always be more popular. And the Brown gloom is destroying any chances Ken has.
93 - “yet behind closed doors they are more debauched and degenerate than the rest of us.”
Speak for yourself!
92. These kinds of sentiments frequently emerge from the mouths of people who themselves have had a very privileged upbringing - like our own dear Roger.
Some of these sad individuals even try to change the way they speak in a pitiful attempt to deny their origins.
Why is this the case? Sometimes it seems to be self-loathing, but more often it appears that these people are nor opposed to privilege per se, but simply believe that they should be the proper beneficiaries of it, rather than others…
O/T - I think we should forget this little argument and instead send our ‘warmest’ best wishes to the Birthday Boy. Al Gore is 60 today!
95
Some of these sad individuals even try to change the way they speak in a pitiful attempt to deny their origins.
Like Heath and Howard, perhaps ?
It is not uncommon for Toffs to downplay their origins, Hurd for instance.
[93] Actually, Tyson, the current government is proposing to extend censorship - you will go to gaol if you watch any of those old films or TV shows like the Avengers in which the heroine gets tied up…
83 “I find it deeply offensive to be compared to a mere Tory toff !!”
Who would dream of doing such a thing?
Electing Boris would only prove that Boris is electable in London. It wouldn’t say very much about the rest of the country.
(Incidentally, I agree that Boris is probably ahead at present: I am not sure that his lead is really 12%).
Anybody who whinges at the lead picture is behaving like a politician. They are taking themselves far too seriously.
They are exclusively anoraks, not punters.
Hillary down to the mid teens on the Iowa exchanges :
http://iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu/quotes/Nomination08_quotes.html
The positive superdelegate news for Obama starts the week off on a positive note for the Illinois senator.
Surely if they want to attack Toffs, this is much the better picture to front with (although Cameron looks rather handsome in this so it may not be as productive as one likes):
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/mar2007/bullingdon_01.jpg
102. been used a hundred times.
97. or could change their name, like anthony wedgewood-benn.
20,000 attend Obama rally on a cold day on the lawn at Penn State :
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-campaig31mar31,0,6653735.story
97- Hurd still has a good head of hair. Saw him on the train the other day. A great man, disdvantaged by going to Eton.
98- one of the good legacies of Blair is the shift in social attitudes in public life- he brought with him a healthy dose of liberalism. Repealing section 28, civil partnerships, downgrading cannabis, 24 hour drinking, liberalising gambling, allowing his ministers to shag around with impunity.
Lumbering Gord is obviously very different, but still I would guess a helluva lot more liberal than the blue rinses who pervade the Tories. I think Cameron would be the most liberal if he could get away wioth it.
This is what I love about Labour: They are so brilliantly predictable.
It was almost worth electing Cameron for the predictability of their strategic response to it: Portray him as toff.
Imagine if Davis had been elected leader?! They might have actually attacked the Conservatives on POLICY and then we’d really be in trouble! As it is, with Cameron, they simply cannot RESIST on attacking his class background (it’s why the Labour party exists isn’t it?)
Electing an old Etonian to them was like waving a red-flag to a bull, or waving a chunk of fresh steak under the nose of an Alsatian. Foaming at the mouth with excitment and lick their lips with glee. YIPPEEEE A TOFF! LETS *GO GET ‘EM*!!
Cameron is almost the countermeasures “chaff” deployed by the Tory frigates to deflect the incoming Labour missiles.
Net result?
No hits scored. No damage done. No ships sunk. Labour running out of missiles.
Brilliant.
While I havent checked..I think its worth pointing out that its 2 Conservative posters at most have said they didnt think the picture should be posted while all others including myself have said its fine, thought provoking and a good illustration of the bile of the left. Not that that has stopped any of the usual Leftie hypocrites spinning and generalising like mad…
And Tyson..you think its the Conservative posters who bring
‘pious, often hypocritical, pompous morality’
Have you never read Roger’s posts because your phrase sums them up perfectly!!!!!
103
It ain’t political, they all do it.
I remember a documentary about Heath, in which Nigel Nicholson was interviewed, he said of Heath, ‘When Heath came up to Oxford, he had this dreadful cockney accent’
I thought cockney! Heath came from Kent, dreadful, what was dreadful about it, he came from as good a family as yours Nicholson. I’ll bet his dad didn’t spend his time cruising the building sites of London, picking up rough trade. Then there’s your mum, Christ there wasn’t anyone in knickers safe from her, get her a wink and the dildo was out faster than shit can slide off a shovel, fine one to talk!
Zimbabwe: Results from 24 parliamentary constituencies now out. Has anybody any idea on how these compares to the last election, or the unofficial results posted by the opposition yesterday? This should be an indication of whether Mugabe has been able to cheat enough to “win” this time too.
93 - One reasonable indicator of debauchery and degeneracy might be a propensity to drunken and intemperate rants at 2.41am on a Sunday morning on a highly respected political and betting forum. But I prefer not to be judgemental.
Only thing about that poster on this site is the use of the “f” word on it.
As 106 said, we’re starting to see natural prejudices of many within Labour coming out now - speak without a heavily “authentic” working class accent? Then you’re scum, or vermin, and you possibly can’t do any good.
Thing is, as ever success of a candidate relies really whether you can relate to them in the first place, and if you can relate to them positively.
You could have seen Blair or (more especially) Ken in the pub in the early days, and maybe talk to them for a little while. Now, Cameron and Boris are in that position.
Remember that most voters won’t know, or care to know, what the different policies are of candidates..
108. The attention-seeking just gets more and more pitiful.
Mike
Love the picture. A splendid addition to PB.
Isn’t it strange how our Tories are so tetchy about a funny old pic of their boy wonder? Can you find some equally awful pictures of Clegg [might be hard as he’s new] and Brown [should be easy] so that we can see if the Cameron complainers are fair-minded or just biased?
Malcolm
By the way, Roger has the perfect diction of a true and noble gentleman.
I’d also like to add I have no problem with the picture at the top of this thread whatsoever.
In fact, I find it quite funny! People can say what they like.
The language is vulgar and probably not suited to pb.com, but it makes its point.
I wonder though how silent the Labour posters would be if it was Gordon at the top of the thread with a right-wing Tory student message of “Miserable Scottish C*nt” as the caption??
(with the honorable exception of Tyson, of course, who would endorse it
)
110 John O. Excellent to see the Hersham Moral Guidance, Depravity and Turpitude Enforcement Officers at work at that time of the morning !!
112 - Indeed. Like all ‘puritans’ - his self-description - he’s just rather sad and smutty.
116 - Jack, I’m always on the job. Er…
Re the thread picture - best advert for voting Conservative I’ve seen in a while - vote Labour = get bigotry.
Tetchy? Don’t think so, most Tories on here have laughed it off. Its the left wingers who are trying to say otherwise.
110- unfortunately- my capacity for debauchery and degeneracy is decreasing. Mostly limited nowadays to drinking too much wine, gambing and ranting.
Boris launching his mayoral campaign proper today in Edmonton, Cameron is to join him.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7322028.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7322028.stm
Cameron has just tied himself electorally to Boris. No surprise, but interesting none the less.
101 How’s the “Hillary deathwatch” coming along?
(I have this image of Jack W at the breakfast table, glasses on the end of his nose, fork-full of kedgeree poised, checking the Obits in the Times to see who else he has outlasted!)
117
I’ll have you know! I can be even sadder and smuttier than that, I haven’t had coffee yet!
This is probably the sort of class based reporting that the Tory posters are complaining about.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/12/03/cameron-rushed-heroes-from-party-89520-20194909/
Its although those years as President of the Jim Davidson fan club y’know.
What a tiresome thread this is.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, the election results are coming in from Zimbabwe. Watch them here http://www.sokwanele.com/election2008
125. I remember that story well, got dropped pretty quickly despite the mirror trying incredibly hard to make something out of it.
118 John O. Surrey Sex Scandal !!
Hersham Councillor ‘Always On The Job’ - Shock !!
Rampant Rural Rumpy-Pumpy Reactions -
‘My bar chars were rocked to the core-vote - Surrey Lib Dems.
‘We won Hersham far and square’ - Robert Mugabe
‘Bill and I were shelled there regularly’ - Hillary Clinton.
‘I have a dream … where Hersham sex maniacs.. - Martin Luther King
124 MM.
….. ‘Hillary Deathwatch’ not updated since Friday :
http://www.slate.com/id/2187679/
O/T - Judge is summing up in the Diana inquest. Fayed is being trashed mercilessly it seems.
123, interesting to compare with Brown distancing himself from Ken though.
It will be an issue once Cameron and Boris are elected.
The wider public will be told the individual histories just like every PM.
The Eton cabal in the cabinet,running the country, will be a metaphor, for any anger at the policies.
In the same way as Brown and Kinnock are and were attacked for their nationality.
Talking of debauchery behind closed doors, I was most amused to read about Max Mosley’s goings on.
108
Have she got a sister?
Naughtily Off Topic
Its all been bad news this morning for H Rodham Clinton, and most of the US is still to awaken to this glorious morn.
There is a cold certainty about the demise of the boomer; she, and only she, can make decisions about the manner of her going. The alternatives seem to be three-fold; death by voters [ a kind of thousand cuts model,] death by super-delegates [slow strangulation] or a morally superior suicide [the gun with the silver bullet.]
Are the most effective suicides the ones who say nothing beforehand? If so in her note she can say “I offered myself for election but the Democratic Party was not ready for ‘my brand of change/a woman/national suicide.’”
It’s over.
Malcolm
Socrates said the other day that it was hard to have a sensible conversation as a reasonable Eurosceptic because Europhiles always tried to pin the ‘mad phobe’ label on him. The Tory attempts on this thread to associate an anarchist poster with the Labour party are a bit similar. The anarchists would have a collective fit.
133
Yes poor Max, still typical, Oxford then the Bar lots of money but still wants to pay the Panzer commander and the milkmaid.
133- do tell.
133
I loved that story,(like all puritans, the upper classes being debauched, ooooh we love that) when the Mail ran it I did notice, they left out that his father, was strongly supported by the then owners of the Mail, Rothermere/Northcliffe who were not above a little debauchery themselves.
See! puritan obsessed by sexual goings-ons in high places, what more could you ask for, its Freudian y’know.
138
Tis ‘ere
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=550109&in_page_id=1770
138Today’s Times has a more than adequate precis.
Top picture - ignore the strange whinges from lurkers about taking it down. The reason it is more interesting is that there is a move among the hard-left to rally around Ken. That includes socialist groups, the Green Party, and other pseudo-anarchist groups.
Not only that, but Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour Leader, has recently started using the word “Socia1ist” again in speeches, in an attempt to reconnect with the old-left core vote.
“Mr Mosley, who once harboured ambitions to be a parliamentary candidate for the Conservative Party”
Same old nasty Tory Party. Same old pious, often hypocritical, pompous morality. They’re all like it. Remember the poll tax. etc etc
(continued on page 94 of ‘The Dummies Guide to writing in Green Ink’)
115- monte
“I wonder though how silent the Labour posters would be if it was Gordon at the top of the thread with a right-wing Tory student message of “Miserable Scottish C*nt” as the caption??”
No need for the caption- every time we see Gordon that is what we all think anyway!
140, hahahaha. I bet McClaren are laughing their bloody heads off.
[132] Dez, you’re hopelessly off message. To attack Brown and Kinnock for their national origin is the duty of every intelligent patriot; to attack anyone in the Tory party for any reason (or none) is the sign of utter moral degeneracy. Do try to keep up.
It’s the rich what gets the pleasure and the poor what gets the blame!!!
Think Stirling puts his finger on it. With analysis like this he would be at home on PB.
“Sir Stirling Moss, the former world champion racing driver whose father was Jewish, said: “I don’t see how he can continue. I hope he can, frankly, because I think he’s very good at what he does. I suppose what goes on behind closed doors is his business but when a thing comes out like this . . . it’s an absolute shocker.”
Goodness - what an offensive banner?
Anyone other offensive banners you would like to display? Perhaps from the BNP or 1970’s NF?
Anyone else who should F*CK OFF? Immigrants? Poor People? Muslims?
Is this the future direction of the site? Where does it end Mike?
Surely the issue isn’t whether Mr Mosley harboured ambitions to be a Tory parliamentary candidate, but whether the Tory Party harboued ambitions for Mr Mosley to be a Tory parliamentary candidate. That would be a story.
Otherwise, it is about as relevent as saying Fred West voted Labour or Harold Shipman was a LibDem.
149 “Anyone else who should F*CK OFF? Immigrants? Poor People? Muslims?”
How about pompous po-faced pr*cks?
140/143- gosh I am impressed. 5 hookers for a 5 hour session at the age of 68. I was getting depressed at the prospect of old age- now I can see some of the things I can look forward to.
151, Ed Balls then?:p
151 But that would see PBC traffic down to 2005 levels.
150
Mosley’s political ambitions are not relevant, what is relevant, that like his father, (read Stephen Dorril’s excellent book Blackshirt) and so many others of his class and background, they do not feel bound by the rules, that the rest of us have drilled into us from an early age.
Having said that, ‘Two and a half grand, five prostitutes, for nine hours!’ we must be in a recession, they’re cutting their prices already.
New Mayoral Poll - Boris Lead by 10% being flagged up over at ConHome/CentreRight.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/03/boris-lead-down.html
155. How would you know?
After showing that poster at the top of the page, I suggest Mike leaves the country and lies low for a few days, maybe France …
155
“so many others of his class and background, they do not feel bound by the rules, that the rest of us have drilled into us from an early age. ”
So you are saying only the “upper classes” use prostitutes? And Fred West was a Lord presumably?
So Nick, the Labour spring conference never happened? The class bile from conference podium was not spewed forth? Now who is been reactionary?
159- mr mad fish- I think it’s hypocracy that rankles, and richer people (especially those in positions of power) just make better hypocrites.
Poor folk may say one thing, do another- but no one listens to them in the first place.
Lots of chippiness on this thread today.
155- was 5 hours now 9- next ole boy Max will be accused of 50 pros, 7 days and mass torture in a 500m flat
re 11 Mugabe is terrorising his people, why aren’t we sending the boys in to get him out and hang him? After all after all the lies and dissemblings we eventually got the true reason why Blair went into Iraq - it was to remove a dictator and &