A delayed victory for polling transparency
May 28th, 2008
The BPC rules that Ken’s congestion charge poll must be released
Just before I went on holiday the British Polling Council made a ruling on the case against Ipsos-MORI for failing to provide the full data on an opinion poll carried out for Transport for London on the congestion charge.
This was highlighted here in February and was the first time that the council has had to hold a formal process over a alleged failure to follow its disclosure provisions. These broadly state that within two working days of a poll being published then the pollsters have to make available the full details - normally on their websites.
The Council have now ruled: “.. This Committee concluded that the findings of the survey did fall under BPC rules following release by the Mayor of London, and that Ipsos MORI did not act in conformity to these rules when it did not make available full details of the survey when it was requested to do so. This conclusion was accepted in full by the Management Committee of the British Polling Council..Ipsos MORI has accepted the findings of the British Polling Council and has apologised for not making the information available when requested. As Ipsos MORI has now made available computer tables from its survey, the full meeting of the BPC decided to take no further action against the company.”
The problem with this ruling, of course, is that the data was kept under wraps for a considerable period of time during a highly sensitive political period. If Ken did not want us to see it during the mayoral election campaign then he succeeded.
The British Polling Council’s transparency rules are an important safeguard for all with an interest in the political process. It helps stops the politicisation and possible distortion of data but there needs to be some faster way of dealing with these matters during election campaigns.
Looking at the poll findings and you just wonder why Livingstone would not let MORI issue the data in line with the normal disclosure process in the first place. There was nothing particularly contentious in it. It simply does not make sense and all the refusal did was to set up a lot of hares running that there were things in the poll that he did not want us to see.
Mike Smithson - on holiday in Spain
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Mike, you must have more important things to worry about on a well-earned break than Ken’s congestion charge. Even he wasn’t planning on expanding it to Spain
Hope the holiday is going well.
On topic, MORI has been attacked enough by people here in the last few months and I’m sure that they will amend their procedures.
It is vital that polling firms release their data sets or they are less than worthless. I think you’re preaching to the converted with this piece, Mike.
State-sponsored, — public polling shall be err, public!
——-
O/T –> OBAMA AND MCCAIN — 2 differents ARGUMENTS about the Irak War.
Very interesting video-discussion about the Electoral effects of the War in Irak on both McCain and Obama, here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22996214#24845439
Who’s having the better RHETORICAL CASE?
McCain and the Iraq War
Has McCain surrendered himself ? –> to the people how adviced to wage the Iraq War AND build and manage its General Strategy (beyond all the tactical reorientations)…
If it is possible for this site to realise that the least favourable poll to Labour is always correct, isn’t that cause for suspicion that polling organisations, who presumably have the same information as Mike Smithson to work from, are biassed, and should be investigated en bloc.
Can Obama (as the Anti-War Candidate) win this Elections (2008) against McCain (the No-Surrender Candidate)?
If so, how is it so different now than between Nixon and Hubert Humphrey in 1968?
1) 1972 : Nixon was GOP when those who started the Vietnam War were Democrats (Kennedy and LB-Johnson).
2) The American has tuned out of the war and are more preoccupied by the next morgage and the credit cards and the price of oil and bread and milk and egg.
McCain vs Obama: the HAWK vs the DOVE?
6. Obama has made clear he isn’t against all wars, he’s just against this war. He has been wholly committed to the war in Afghanistan since it began, and has been very clear he would not take military options off the table with regards to Iran. He even supported Israel’s recent attack on Lebanon (which even I disagreed with).
Re: Future Labour leadership:-
How’s this for a dream team:-
PM- Straw
Home sec- Smith
Foreign- Burnham
Chancellor- Miliband
People may say Smith is too overpromoted, but if you got her on TV a more I think she could wrap up some female votes, she’s very normal.
Keep Straw on til the election, take a small defeat hopefully, and by this point, either Burnham or Miliband will be established enough to take over the leadership?
Thoughts??
Mike - it sounds like nice weather in Spain. Wind and rain here!
(Spain)Wednesday: sunny intervals, Max Temp: 26°C (78°F), Min Temp: 16°C (60°F), Wind Direction: W, Wind Speed: 10mph, Visibility: very good, Pressure: 1015mb, Humidity: 41%, UV risk: moderate, Sunrise: 07:02CEST, Sunset: 21:27CEST
I reported here several weeks ago that the Patriots would take control of Stoke in a few years. Looks like the Grauniad has caught up.
“They haven’t just let me down. They’ve broken my heart,” says John Oldcroft, sitting outside the centre. “Stoke-on-Trent has been Labour for 60-odd years and they’ve taken everything for granted. Labour are just turning into Conservatives. We’ve got a local BNP lad who lives on the estate and he came and had a word.”
“Labour activists fear the BNP is now the strongest single party in Stoke. On May 1, Labour polled 14,000 votes in 20 seats; the BNP polled almost 8,000 standing in just 10 seats. A minority Labour administration struggles on; the council chamber is fragmented by independents and neither the Conservatives nor the Liberal Democrats are bigger than the BNP. Senior local politicians, commentators and residents believe this city of 250,000 could be controlled by the BNP within three years.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/28/labour.thefarright
The future’s bright - the future’s Patriotic.
7 — Socrates,
Very interesting, thanks.
9. when will this bint be banned?
11 — Why ban it, for it is very informative? No taught policing here, please.
12. not sure how fascist propoganda is informative. the whole ‘patriots’ lark is extremely grating as well, it’s more pathetic than anything.
11. when will this bint be banned?
Typical Marxist Labour response. Play the woman not the ball.
This is a story from your friends at the Guardian. I suggest read it several times. Rather than hurl abuse you might want to ask yourself - Why are people in ‘Labour heartlands’ voting Patriotic in record numbers.
13
That’s informative: “On May 1, Labour polled 14,000 votes in 20 seats; the BNP polled almost 8,000 standing in just 10 seats.”
11. “the Blood of the Martyrs is the seed of the Church” as St Cyprian so rightly said. banning anything just legitimises it. let Emily be listend to respectfully then either rebutted or ignored.
Anyway a BNP controlled council might be a good thing in the medium term. the socio/cultural/economic factors fueling the BNP aren’t going anywhere and neither are they. Lets have this debate once and for all. When the people of stoke see them in power and that have neither magic wands or any one decent to run it it will be worth a thoasand anti facist marches.
8. Obviously who is PM matters but after that i think this government is past reshuffles. Its the policies/delivery/economics not the personel.
Anyway there is no talent to promote. I’m reminded of the Duke oof Wellington shouting “Who? , Who?, Who ? ” when he heard the new (Ithink) Peel cabinet read out.
15. Lib Dems in fourth place behind the BNP in 15 of the 33 Leeds wards on 1/5/08.
re 16, Yellow Submarine,
I’m a neophyte here: is one of the main “socio/cultural/economic factors fueling the BNP” in Stoke — immigration?
If so, is ot more Eastern European or Islamic?
—
I’m not sure about it tough: “When the people of stoke see the BNP in power and that have neither magic wands or any one decent to run it it will be worth a thoasand anti facist marches” — for Fascism showed in the past a very virulent potential to propagate itself, especially after taking power.
18. I don’t know stoke , I was gneralising. IMHO the BNP vote is driven by shortage of social housing, “petty” crime (by which of course I mean the sort of horrific ASB that destroys lives), casualisation of the labour market and the cultural impact of 9/11 7/7. of course there is a core of absolute racism and facism but most BNP voters i have talked to are quite reasonable and rational. They feel the system is shafting them and they want to spit in its face.
18. On your second point, not in Britain. The Monarchy, a strong and dominent centre right party and the anglophone/common law tradition have kept us on an even keel.
Though perhaps now we are a debt ridden, post industrial, post christain, urbanised, dehomogenised,celebrity culture we might at last be ripe for the picking.
Good Lord - another Charlie! Henceforth I shall be Charlie2.
Test
20 — May the Monarchy and your beautiful common law tradition — which we share in Canada, co-living with the France-inspired Civil Code in Quebek — save you people from being picked by fascism European-style!
22 Philippe,
Thanks for caring so much for us. From what I have been hearing from the UK recently the country is in ferment, the street are full of protestors wearing green wellies and carrying posters extolling Boris the Fop and Pretty Boy Dave.
Your islamophobia leads me to believe that when I return to the UK for a brief period next week I will not be able to leave the airport as jihadists will have surrounded it and will force me to convert to islam and wear a beard and long clothes.
I hope that my neighbours will still be alive; some, of course, will have been slaughtered in their beds by Pakistanis determined to turn the UK into the next Afghanistan. Our local farms will be cultivating poppies and naan bread will be the national dish.
We leave for France at the end of next month for six weeks of gallic culture and common sense. Oh, I forgot, you are gallic. I suppose we will never be able to leave France and return to the UK. They are bound to think that we are British Jihadists - we will have a mediterranean tan!
Thanks for your kind concern. We’ll be in Canada in the fall, is it safe?
Malcolm
12. Why ban it, for it is very informative?
It insults our intelligence (”Patriots”? “Richard the Lionheart”, FFS? I’ve met Barnbrook in my professional capacity - and it’s the only time I’ve ever left work with the express intention of getting drunk to forget; an appalling character) and we have no way of avoiding it. If PB.c had a way of kill-filing an individual poster, I wouldn’t have a problem, but Powell’s inane ramblings contribute nothing positive to the site.
23
Just hope you’re also joking about so-called ‘islamophobia’!
25 Philippe
Always Joking!!
Malcolm
The BNP’s highpoint is likely to be the next election. It is drawing its support from alienated Labour voters. It is no coincidence that the last time such policies got votes was under a failing Labour government, in the 1970s. Given that Labour will in all probability be out at the next election, the inflammation on the body politic should then subside.
24
If you don’t like the lady, ignore her. It’s absurd to ban people just because you dislike their politics.
It’s almost 7am and we’ve still not had our daily portion of ‘SNP is great’ propaganda from Stuart Dickson. Why?
29 — Maybe Mr. Dickson is too busy reading the 21 comments about the post he wrote, today, on this website.
30 — Sorry, it was yesterday’s… I’m on holiday, and they were no Primary Elections yesterday, so I’m … llosing track of the dates!
12 - there are enough bad Tory spinners on here to allow space for a spinner from another party, even if we despise their politics. At least it is blatant and everyone can spot it a mile off. Interesting anecdote LS @ 24 though - the BNP are probably their own worst enemies as soon as they threaten to break through anywhere.
And O/T was phoned up to help in Henley, looks like the Lib Dems are taking this one very seriously. I’m hoping to drop by at the weekend so I will let you know how the ground lies.
Has the Henley byelection been called yet? I would have thought that the Tories, if they really believed their own spin after the Crewe and Nantwich result, would have moved the writ PDQ. Do they really want to let the Liberal Democrats build up a head of steam in Henley?
32 — Lib Dems in Henley
“Cocky Cameron fancies a swift triumph in Boris Johnson’s seat to keep the Tory bandwagon rolling.
But Labour trailed third, with just 14.7 per cent, in 2005 and can’t possibly win in 2008.
So let the Lib Dems, who came second, give the Cons a good run for Michael Ashcroft’s money.”
Do I detect a windfall tax on oil companies being used to reduce petrol duty?
33
No, not yet, but:
“The Conservatives will pick a candidate to replace Boris Johnson in his former constituency of Henley this week as the party moves to stage a quick by-election.“
Crumbs! Is that really the Mirror making supportive noises in favour of the Liberal Democrats?
8.
“I think she could wrap up some female votes, she’s very normal.”
So normal that if I were forced to wake up next to her every morning I would turn gay within seconds. (due to affect not looks!)
37.
Tomorrow they print the bar chart.
“Labour can’t win!”
34 - I even see that Kevin Maguire agrees with my MP housing proposal, and yes it seems like the LDs are already being touted as the challengers, this is crucial. Much will depend on the Tory candidate, the Lib Dem bloke seems very strong from what I have seen.
8. By normal, i am sure you mean ‘average’, she is distinctly average. Does anyone really feel she has the skills necessary to oversee the Home Office?
38 Wonder how she’d feel about waking up next to you, Wage Slave?
Obama’s Great Uncle Kicked Nazi’s Butts
Bar chart? Well, all but. It’s the result of the 2005 election -
http://henleylibdems.org.uk/results/989.html
Briefly, on topic. Might not one of the most significant consequences of the breach of the rules by Mori be that there weren’t any? They’ve held their hands up, said ‘yes, we were naughty boys and won’t do it again’, and the BPC have said ‘well, see that you don’t.’ And that’s it - the detail of a poll that could have had important consequences and wasn’t released in a timely fashion during a close election has resulted in no action other than a ’sorry’.
That really isn’t good enough. There will no doubt be polls conducted in future elections on specific policy issues. How the data is handled is crucial as that can legitimise or undermine the media headline and build or deflate momentum behind one party or another. People have to be able to see the methodology used to assess just how much spin is involved. This really needs sorting out before the next general election, with some more appropriate sanctions available - or if they are available, applied when appropriate.
45. Lib Dems can’t win here?
45. etc. Should a byelection actuall be called in Henley, may I kindly offer a pointer to posters. Ignore all Lib Dem comments about being ‘asked to help out’, ‘going to Henley again’, ‘Lord Rennard says..’, ‘coming through the middle’ etc.
During the C&N campaign the only Lib Dem poster who refrained from this tedious spin and expressed views that proved in line with reality was Dave (s).
Overnight Delegate Update - Obama +1 - Clinton +1.
Obama picked up 2 SD’s from Wyoming and Guam but lost a Virgin Island SD to Hillary who had switched to Obama and now has switched back to Hillary !!
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/vi-superdelegat.html
28
The National Front, Tyndall, Webster etc, got their biggest boost back in the early seventies, when the Heath government, (A brave decision) admitted the Ugandan Asians.
48 - That’s not true. Mark Senior consistently said that he expected the Conservatives to win in Crewe & Nantwich.
If you think Gordon’s got problems.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/28/canada
Nice to see something interesting happening in Canada!!
51. Even stopped clocks are right twice a day.
I can’t see the lib dems overturning the tories in Henley, Boris will be a major boost to the tory campaign, who are also on a roll from the crewe by elevtion and are now more popular than ever nationally. The lib dem tactics in Crewe failed spectacularly, despite hearing Chris Huhne try to make out it was a good sresult on the daily politics, he just looked a twit. Crewe was bad for the lib dems, and I don’t see why Henley will be any different.
48. I’m confused now - we have posters who want information on how campaigns are going and now we have posters who want information on progress of campaigns suppressed!
I WAS e-mailed to ask if I could phone-canvass in C&N, so I passed the information on.
48. I wasn’t suggesting anything should be ’suppressed’. Just that punters should be careful to ignore a large chunk of the comments coming from supposedly ‘in touch’ posters, which amount to nothing more than empty spin.
55 - He made a point, he was instantly proved wrong - I’d ignore him. And I thought subeditors were supposed to check copy for glaring mistakes rather than add their own.
54
Just a point, the name of a political party, (even tories) should be spelt with a capital letter, i.e. Labour, Libdems, Conservatives, (Tories) etc., it is a proper noun!
56 I can confirm that I received at least 7 or 8 Emails asking for help in C&N ( and have already had 2 or 3 re Henley . This is not spin but pure fact . Do you want to give me your Email address so that I can foreward them to you in future ?
36.”Do I detect a windfall tax on oil companies being used to reduce petrol duty?”
I hope not, he has already doubled the tax on them in recent times to help fill a black hole in the Treasury finances. How would further taxation improve the situation, or increase/encourage investment in the North Sea? I believe this policy is on the Unions wish list though.
48 I beg to differ.
OT: Brown Government circling the drain.
61.Student politics forever!
54. Ah! Reality at last. Frankly, the LD’s have little to no chance in Henley. At the moment, local thoughts and issues are not the point. National issues, giving this Fabian Govt. a bloody despatch are the substance. Adding the fact that it’s a, fundamentally, Tory area and there’s no ’swing’ anywhere in favour of the LD’s, I give them no hope at all. Let’s get real.
61. By Nick Clegg, in which he spends as much time attacking the tories as attacking the government. And he wonders why the lib dems did so badly at Crewe.
56. Yes, but why single out the Lib Dems? Do you really think all the other parties’ comments on C&N were gospel?
The obvious way to blunt the BNP, is by pointing out the following.
http://torytroll.blogspot.com/
From PB regular, Torytroll’s blog.
59 Mark, if you happened to live closer to the scene of the By Election, you would by now have had many more e-mails, and a personal phone call from the candidate.
64. In C&N the Lib Dems, starting in 3rd place, were squeezed to a “core” vote level of 14% which is entirely consistent with current national opinion poll ratings of around 18-19%. There was nothing Nick Clegg or Lord Rennard could have done to alter this.
68. Perhaps not, but during the campaign Clegg constantly claimed they were hoovering up votes from labour and could serious challenge the tories, in the end they did neither. I can’t see why Henley will be any different either, a massive imcumbent tory lead coupled with a good campaign should see them easily get home.
65. Not at all. But the Lib Dems’ comments proved especially inaccurate and we can expect an avalanche of similar rubbish in Henley, where they start in second place and will desperate to ramp up their chances after their poor result in C&N.
Btw I don’t doubt that many ‘calls for help’ are indeed received. My point is merely that such ‘calls’ signify precisely nothing.
6 I think Straw is uninspiring and not likely to represent the kind of audacious change that Labour is going to have to make if it is to get anywhere near winning next time. Need a younger, fresher face, who can distance him/herself from the past more convincingly.
54 Boris has made a rather uncertain start - appeared not to realise that he couldn’t appoint other elected people (eg Simon Milton) as his paid advisers, announced that he would be chairman of TfL and then a few days later appointed someone else, seems to think he can be part-time mayor and also write for the Telegraph, and brought in a private equity expert to “sort out” City Hall. This may, of course, turn out to be a successful appointment, but the record of business people brough in to “sort out” political organisations is not encouraging - as Archie Norman could tell you.
If political advisors and think tanks made up Labour’s electoral college then Alan Johnson would be the next PM.
http://www.politicshome.com/#1056
I counted six sweeping subjective judgements from FJW in his post above, and he calls that reality.
In contrast, some Lib Dems here report that they have been asked to help out in Henley, and this is dismissed as spin.
Strange way of looking at things.
re 11 never I hope
As a matter of record, the least accurate poster on this site is ‘Ave it.
66. The Torytroll seems a bit obsessive to me, the kind of person who lives in a bedroom in his mothers house.
[75] I disagree. Dear old Ave It’s prediction that Labour will take Bootle at the next General Election hasn’t been proved wrong… yet.
73. ‘Subjective’, of course, what’s the problem? ’sweeping’? only if you wish to continue living in a fairy tale.
76. I wish. I loved that bedroom.
76. To be fair ‘obsessive’ is a label you could apply to quite a few posters on here…
The government has drawn up plans to release about 550 prisoners early in an effort to ease overcrowding.
71 Straw’s chance depends on whether you think any Labour Leader can win now. If even Miliband thinks the best that can be done is to reduce Cameron’s majority it may be best to let Uncle Jack do that job so any new Leader can pick up the other side of the election with a decent number of MPs and untainted by any beating.
75 - anyone who backed Ave It’s assertion that “CONS WIN EVERYTHING!!!” since last October could probably have retired by now.
(He’s wrong about McCain though!)
71 - Can Archie Norman not claim any credit for the Tory financial revival?
72 - What is it about LibDem leaders and the word “whiff”?
That’s nice. Now the lefties actually want to ban a perfectly polite poster just because they “don’t like her or her party”.
Emily Powell-Churchill may be several klieglights short of a Nuremburg Rally but she has never, as far as I know, actually said anything racist on this site - unlike many others. And her party, however unsavoury, is not actually illegal - and is supported by maybe 10-20% of the population. Indeed many BNP policies are probably supported by half the country - the death penalty, zero immigration etc.
Yet they want to ban her. Tsk tsk.
Quite frankly they should be happy the BNP are so useless. With the amount of brutal crime we have seen in this country, related to migrants and minorities, in just the last few days, a decent Fascist movement should be banging on the doors of Number 10, not “hoping for a councillor in Stoke”.
Give me the job and I’ll swing Britain to the far right in a jiffy. You’re just lucky I prefer writing, and I’ve gone all gay and centrist in my middle age.
[86] A man who wrote a book about how to get women into bed has gone “all gay”?
86. Yes, some people never grow out of student union style politics, I’m afraid.
One intersting stat being quoted by LDs about C&N is that the support levels for the main three were in the ratio of;
4 Conservatives, 2 Labour, 1 Lib Dem.
according to Lord Rennard.
At the time the Lib Dems claimed they were pulling out all the stops in C&N whereas they actually sent some of their Campaign team to Henley. After C&N they are now saying that they were outmanned.
……and we had numerous LDs deny on here that they were mounting a half hearted campaign in C&N?
So I agree with the subeditor, be wary of LDs talking up activity in a by election.
Praise to Mr Senior for calling C&N correct at the start.
Anyone listen to the five live phone in on petrol ? If I was Gordon I’d increase his security detail - there’s a lynch mob out there !
87. Isn’t that what women want… supposedly?
89 Support levels meaning manpower right.
The far right love nothing better then being ‘banned’: makes them feel all suppressed and important, as if ‘the establishment’ is running scared. Just let Emily Enoch-Adolf (or whatever it is) post her banalities. Don’t flatter her ego.
16 Actually it was Derby not Peel.
89
Activity is one thing. Preparing the ground over a period of time is another.
In terms of leaflets distributed during the campaign in C&N, I am told that the Liberal Democrats did far more than the other parties.
Perhaps TC has evidence to the contrary?
I did actually see a front page of the Lib Dem newspaper the day before the election headlined “Elizabeth just a few hundred votes short of shock victory”. Typical Lib Dem hype and disinformation I’m afraid. She actually ended up 14000 votes short of the shock victory!!!
87. It was actually a book about how I largely failed to get women into bed. Anyway I was using gay in the modern, Moylesian sense.
For anyone that’s interested (i.e. no one) that piece I did on the weird Christian ragpickers of Cairo, who live in a suburb made of trash, has finally emerged. It’s been published in an English-language Arab newspaper of all places.
http://www.thenational.ae/section/ART&profile=1111
Shame you can’t click on the pics to enlarge them. It is an extraordinary subculture.
Can anybody help with a totally off-topic pub argument: when was the last time (if ever) that a council election was completely unchallenged, i.e. no-one standing at all? As you can tell, I go to some rather odd pubs. I know that parish and Welsh community council seats are sometimes uncontested, but I mean county, district or borough councils.
Weston, I am merely quoting Rennard and the fact that the Lib Dems deputy campaign director was working in Henley and not in C&N.
Who are you quoting?
96. oooh, bad prediction.
89. Mr Senior prediced Con 15k Lab 8k Lib dem 8k
Actual results Con 20.5 Lab 12.7 Lib 6k. Overstated the Lib Dem vote share by 11% (26% vs 15%).
**** SHOCK NEWS **** SHOCK NEWS **** SHOCK NEWS **** SHOCK NEWS
Politician expects to win election !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Candidate says they’re in it to win it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
…………………
In Other Startling News JNN can exclusively reveal :
Stewart Jackson is of the Conservative bent.
Mark Senior likes nothing more than a bacardi and a bar chart.
Ave It supports a second rate team …… Watford I mean !!!
Emily Goebbels-Gobshite sports a tiny black moustache.
Other exclusives to follow ……………….
101 Jeff yes but he did not spout the “LDs winning here” nonsense.
86: If what she says offends them so much why the frell do they bother reading it?
96: But the graphs showed that…
61 footsoldier That Clegg article was the funniest for some time in the Telegraph. It challenged the Hefferlump for poor logic.
Can he do a few more like this before Henley please?
Interesting new proposals from MinJust, sorry, the Ministry of Justice. Now they are banning the possession of drawings, or computer generated images, of child sex abuse:
http://tinyurl.com/5wtocz
Anyone found in possession of a DRAWING of something deemed as child sex abuse will now be subject to three years in prison. That means my schoolboy doodles of Sally Ann Long, the buxom fifteen year old girl in my maths class, would have landed me in Scrubs.
These aren’t photos. They are drawings. Things people imagine, then write down. Thoughts. Doodles. Scribblings. Horrible, maybe - but imaginary.
This is thoughtcrime, pure and simple. The governments wants to abolish certain thoughts. I imagine they are already preparing a special laser machine in David Miliband’s house, which will zap the dirty and incorrect parts of our brains, with a simple operation.
The country is engulfed in gang violence and knife attacks. Meanwhile the government cracks down on…. drawings.
I’m off to write my novel, in despair. Ciao.
97 Fascinating article, Sean. But please don’t use the phrase “I luck out” ever again!
105 I thought the enigmatic nature of Cameron was exemplified in the debate here on Europe. Is Cameron for no change on Europe, or is he going to do something bravely anti-european? People project the vision they prefer, and Cameron says nothing.
Anyway: no one has emailed me to invite me to Henley. But I will be going there to support my old mate Stephen Kearney tomorrow.
106 - “Child safety groups had been concerned paedophiles could circumvent current anti-abuse legislation by digitally manipulating abuse photographs. “
Without questioning their sincerity, how is this “circumventing” anti-abuse laws? What abuse is taking place, such that the laws are being circumvented?
61. Great comment underneath the Clegg article…
Please don’t insult us by
pretending that you won’t be
reading these comments, Mr
Clegg, and answer these
questions:
Did you know you were lying when
you promised to support a
referendum on the European
Constitutional Treaty in your last
election manifesto?
Do you get a pension paid by the
eu?
(Maybe the Brown government is
circling the drain but his party still
got twice as many votes as your lot
at Crewe and Nantwich.)
Posted by P.Birkin on May 28, 2008 12:54 AM
Japanese cartoon makers won’t be happy
61, Clegg is a witty fellow.
He has a line saying the government’s unpopular then paragraphs attacking the Tories for not laying out delayed policies followed by “and we’ll put together a financial plan to pay for every penny” which sounds like an awfully detailed proposal.
It’s fair enough not to have detailed tax policies 2 years from an election, but to criticise a party for it and then say “We’ll cut taxes for almost everyone and tell you how later” is less than serious.
“Everyone, no matter their background, will have a patient guarantee, so if the NHS can’t treat them in time, the government will pay for them to be treated elsewhere.”
I’m pretty sure this is already the case. I went to a lovely private hospital because no local NHS place could see to me in time.
Mind you, given their deceit over the Lisbon Treaty who’d believe a lefty manifesto anyway?
I suspect that the film industry could have a bit of a problem with it as well.
90 It’s amazing how people lose all sense of reason when they perceive a threat to their cars. When I was a councillor the two subjects that got people more angry than anything else were not getting their kids into the school they wanted (understandable you might think) and controlled parking zones preventing them from parking their cars directly outside their front doors. And this was not in some leafy suburb with expansive driveways but crowded inner London where most properties have no off-street parking! Madness.
The fuel economy of the average family car has not improved at all in the past 40 years - if you compare that to other domestic appliances like, say, central heating boilers or fridges, it’s an appalling record. Hopefully recent price rises will force the industry and consumers to take fuel economy more seriously.
86 There’s no reason at all to ban Emily. Her posts are invariably polite.
109: It doesn’t and could actually be quite positive if it feeds a market that would otherwise be supplied with photos of actual abuse.
114. What rubbish, my MPV diesel gets 48mpg, fuel efficiency has improved dramatically, but along with that engine size and performance have improved, as prices have dropped.
114. There is a very vocal (small) minority that believe they have a divine right to drive everywhere and do anything they like behind the wheel.
Phone-in shows as on five live are tailor made for such vocal minorities.
You are right that fuel economy is not improving as fast as it could be
115 - People are only calling for her to be banned to provoke Sean T into an entertaining anti-gaylording, lefty rant.
106. Are you after title suggestions again Sean? I assume “In Despair” isn’t the title, although it would make a good novel title.
What’s the theme this time? Did you go with the Genesis Secret last time? If so, how about calling this one Exodus Man?
115 and the article she pointed to in the Guardian was a good one - was particularly struck by fact that Labour wanted to get rid of an elected mayor and cut number of councillors because they feared losing elections and didn’t seem to comprehend that the BNP had been effective through community politics. Lesson for Conservative & Lib Dems as well in getting councillors/activists out in shops & pubs, listening, talking, supporting.
Bradford and Bingley circling the 100p mark. Rights issue being universally slated. NRK 2?
106 - when i heard that article this morning i thought of the brilliant Brass Eye “paedo-geddon” show. Particulary the bit where they took a child abuse “expert” and showed him weird photoshopped pictures and bizarre drawings of children and asked him to judge whether they were pornographic or not……
116. That’s a very good argument. Let’s face it, paedophilia exists, and it ain’t going away, unless the government manages to engineer our brains in their secret Home Office labs underneath Islington Green.
Given that it exists, surely it is better its cruel desires are blunted if not sated by “fake photos”, or manipulated images, or drawings, rather than the real deal?
But the government, in its Orwellian stupidity and craven desire to appease the tabloids, has now closed off that route, while criminalising the innocent to boot.
I never thought I’d say this, but I am yearning for a government which feels no need to pander to the Sun and the Mail. And the only government which can do that, as far as I can see, is a Tory government.
123. Yes, what comic genius that was. A brilliant expose of the hysterical attitudes whipped up by government, media, and campaign groups. Which is of course why it was suppressed.
36 - Why should oil companies be singled out, just because the price of their product is high?
THe more you tax them, the less money they have ot spend on R+D.
124 - I don’t think it’s quite that simple though. Presumably the main argument is that when people see things on the web etc it might drive/”inspire” them to try them out in reality. Which isn’t an argument that should be dismissed out of hand. Digitised images might solve one issue (actual abuse of people to produce the images) but doesn’t solve all the potential issues.
That said, it must be debateable whether such proposals are feasible/realistic in their ambitions.
117 Our family car in the 1960s was a (petrol) Morris Minor which achieved 50mpg - of course it had no power steering or air conditioning and didn’t go much above 70mph but my point is that the relatively small improvements in engine efficiency that have been achieved have been swallowed up by extra gadgets and the increased weight of vehicles. Few petrol-driven family cars today achieve 50mpg.
How come the Lib Dems have never been done under the trades description act for delibratly distrubuting misleading information? After all the LD’s are offering a service? (Even if it is clearing the streets of dog shit!
)
I really do think whilst trying to clean up parliamentry allowances, the more visible side of politics - campiagn literature needs clearing up. Delibratly going out of your way to misled voters is a pretty dismal way to conduct politics. Indeed those who do it have contempt for the electorate. If the Tories win the next election, I would hope they would bring in a bill outlawing the delibrate misuse of Information for electoral purposes. Those who indulge in it should really have electric shock treatment like the type peadophilles have.
127. there is no doubt in my mind that a large number of different perversions are popular purely because of the ready availability of p0rnographic material. there is certainly stuff out there that would not occur to many sane minds
126. Well, given the current government’s line of thinking, maybe they should ban oil companies from advertising on TV? (leaving them with more money to spend on R&D)
130. So in that sense Mark Oaten was a real representative of the people
126 - I think the concern is that they aren’t really spending that much on R&D. I’d prefer to mandate R&D with the money instead of a windfall tax, but I don’t have a fundamental problem with treating secotrs of the economy differently.
We are looking at running out of, or low on, oil over the next few decades. This is a security and economic problem and we need radical solutions to spring from R&D. Shareholder enrichment cannot be the sole arbiter in such companies’ decisions - and government cannot allow it to be. Either the profits are taxed in order to find a solution through government-led R&D (not efficient, but better on IP grounds) or the gvt force oil companies to spend x amount on solutions that (if they yield z result, will mean permanent additioanl tax allowances of y). I think that is perfectly reasonable.
129. 130. some very odd postings today.
129. You’d have to close down Fleet Street!
128. yep exactly, and unbelievably the trend is for even heavier and less aerodynamic cars. Take as an example those 4×4s that can’t even go off road.
I think future generations will look back and laugh at how ludicrous some current designs are.
Surely the way out of this crisis for Gordon is to introduce oil tax credits.
If you are a key worker, single mum or haulier of organic veg you can apply online with a simple 50 page form submitted to a new centre for oil tax credit administration in say Crewe (creating 100 jobs), this will allow the govt to reimburse the fuel tax in the form of benefits.
Should be simple to operate and if your circumstances change a single phone call will sort out all the problems.
To enable information to flow smoothly between Crew and Whitehall a CD containing everyone’s information will be sent weekly by Royal Mail (2nd class).
135. That’s true!
I was thinking more of the two horse bar graphs!
127. Then, logically, they should ban any writing about child abuse, in case it too “inspires” people to do the real thing. That means Lolita is out the window.
Equally, I am expecting Angela Eagle to stage a stun grenade attack on the British Museum any minute:
http://tinyurl.com/56qsmy
It’s a stupid, stupid law, entirely devoid of logic, which has been enacted merely to gain some brownie points with the Sun. The only images which should be “illegal” are real photos of child abuse.
Everything else is thoughtcrime. Banning “drawings”, FFS.
137. The real way to solve the oil crisis is for Brown to recall Peter Mandelson from brussels and drill Mandelsons tongue for Oil! There must be a Billion gallons in there!!!!
139. Hamlet as well. What about references in history to marriages involving minors? Perhaps they should be banned as well.
127 On balance, though, I don’t think it’s a great idea to ban fake images of such abuse. Perverts can get off on all sorts of images and descriptions of violence, even some that are genuinely artistic, or of literary merit. Some might even be inspired to emulate what they see.
But I’d still draw the line between banning real images of rape of children (because by downloading such things, you’re encouraging it to happen, in the same way as if you’re buying stolen goods) and fake images (where you’re not).
141 Don’t forget Romeo & Juliet. She was 14.
139. Completly agree on the drawings front - Bloody stupid law. If people are indulged in child abuse - jail them, if they have photo’s jail them. If they have drawings - so what?
What next banning people’s thought processes? Brain washing?
Just out of interest when homosexual activity was against the law, if people drew pictures of two men taking it in turn to bugger each other would they have gonr to jail?
142. and what if it is really realistic?
a copy of a real image?
etc. etc.
Many of the laws of the last ten years have been prepared badly and have massive unintended consequences. The HRA is but one major example.
The recent budgets have more obviously followed suit, but a look at the budgets of the last ten years also seem to have had the same faults. Think of pensions, business emigration, house inflation, asymmetrical devolution………
There is one change now, though. At least now they promise to review one budget in the next one.
Well, that is what they say.
143. And of course the Koran.
Talking of great books:
http://tinyurl.com/6qzhf6
Hah!
145. How realistic would the drawings have to be? If they were a bit impressionistic, would they be OK? Or would they have to be completely abstract?
What a bunch of t*ssers Labour are.
For seanT’s blood pressure if it is too low.
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/05/european-parliament-to-silence.html
145. I can just about see an argument (though I’m not sure I agree with it) for banning photoshopped images which you can PROVE have been manipulated from real photos of real abuse - though quite how that could ever be proved in a court of law, beyond reasonable doubt, I wonder (which is why I think this is just gesture politics of the worst kind).
But the law also specifically outlaws drawings! Which is the very definition of something imaginary. It’s a fatuous and disgraceful piece of governmental posturing.
133, 136 I think the industry will only respond to price pressure - the price of oil has now reached levels at which the demand for thirsty cars is going to drop significantly and fuel economy is going to be a much bigger selling point - just look at the success of the Prius. And hopefully people will begin to change their behaviour and use their cars a bit less.
142 indeed there do . i think there’s a program on channel 5 this evening about people who have sex with cars.
We look back in smugness on The Dark Ages and on mediaeval times.There is a tendency to think that enlightenment is someting linear.
My view is that currently we are living in The New Dark Age but with a few labour saving gadgets as add-ons.
When one gets old,a reservation creeps in about the unfavourable comparison between the Present and the recent Past.Not unnaturally you think that you yourself have got much worse rather than that things generally have deteriorated.
Anyways…..I have always preferred older women, and having the graveyard two doors up the road is very handy after midnight; once the chavs and the alkies have departed.
75 Footsoldier.At least Ave.it makes us laugh,more than our resident leftwingers do. A more humourless bunch it would be difficult to find.
154. Humourless yes, but nevertheless richly entertaining.
153 - that’s got to win some kind of prize for the creepiest post of the week.
153 Anne Widdecombe, I presume?
“The Treasury claims that VAT paid on petrol and diesel is not a windfall because consumers tend to cut back and pay less VAT in other areas.”
Oh well, that’s all right then…..
http://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/45888/A-billion-reasons-to-slash-fuel-tax
I get the impression that the government is in a complete shambles over the prospective 2p increase on a litre of petrol and the planned rise in road tax, with some ministers dropping heavy hints that it will be dropped and others vehemently denying this. Meanwhile all Brown can do is furiously spin about a meeting with “oil industry leaders” in Scotland, as if that will achieve anything.
This sorry bunch of clowns really don’t know their @rse from their elbow.
158. typo: “alright”
159. Brown is absolutly useless!
One major component of the price spike in oil has been the illegal war in Iraq! It is though that it has taken upto $6 Trillion out of the western economies sine 2003! Thats a lot of money down the drain for no real reason.
How come the oil rich states don’t do there fair share on international aid by the way?
160 - Practicing for your Kinnock-esque speech at conference this year ?
111 - That’s the whole manga industry banned in this country then. Do the government have any clue about popular culture?
What if you are crap at drawing? All my attempts at drawing people result in something that looks barely human. Where’s the line between stick man/woman and stick child?!?
161 - exactly. Our illegal war is a direct cause of this recession.
161. Talking about International Aid - I noted Dennis Macshane on radio 4 this morning asking why England gives India international aid when there are more Billionaires in India than this country! Good point Dennis!
Why is your government still doing this?
Next Dennis will be advocating British Jobs for British Workers!
162.
!!! Maybe he will go for a dip by the sea to refresh himself first! 
163. What if children draw pictures of naked children will they go to prison?