Wednesday evening thread
June 11th, 2008After the government’s narrow win on 42 days, and ahead of the Irish vote, please continue your discussions here - over 950 posts on PB today.
Double Carpet
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When Nick Palmer dares to come back on again (shouldn’t imagine it’ll be tonight
) I wonder if he’ll renounce Gabble’s completely outrageous and abhorent views.
Over to you Nick Palmer.
Looking at the BBC website it looks as if only Widdecombe voted with the government from the Tories.
Reposted from prev thread
447
Nick will be back shortly, telling everyone that his canvass returns show clearly that he was right and that his constituents support him.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan June 11th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Look, don’t be so hard on Nick.
I disagree with him utterly too, but would hate to drive him away from here. On occasions, his insights are useful - and he is seldom boring. Long may he be welcome here.
A good one for the Tories to lose.
It would make them a hostage to fortune. The next terrorist incident (and they will be one), no matter the
circumstances, the Conservatives, if they defeated the Government, would
have got the blame.
The Sun would scream “blood on your hands” with a picture of some photogenic
young dead girl and a picture of david cameron.
2 - Widdy is virtually Labour these days, anyway.
2 That’s interesting. I will repeat my question to Stodge from the previous thread:
424 Stodge, you say on your blog: “While I’m pleased to see so many Tories opposed to the 42-day plan, a notable minority were in support..”
I thought Widdecombe was the only Tory to vote in favour. Do you know of any others?
Re: The Irish Referendum
I phoned into to Newstalk today wishing to ask people to vote YES in the referendum tomorrow and was asked to hold (which I did) and was then played the following message:
“Thank you for phoning Newstalk. Under the instructions of the Referendum Commission, Newstalk is unable to hold a discussion about the Lisbon Treaty. Please visit the Referendum Commission’s site for further details”
Has anyone come across that before anywhere?
Yokel, I understand your comment, though I don’t agree with it. But I would like to ask something different. In a period when Labour look deader than flairs, do you think that the DUP have been strategically wise?
GB has another gaping wound after today
This will fester and dog him through the next 12 months of the political process.
The Lords will, quite rightly, throw it out. Forcing it through using the Parliament Act will be a step too far for the legal establishment.
Macho posturing gets you nowhere when you are fundamentally wrong in your thinking.
David Davis will not forget and certainly not forgive the DUP over this - his anger was writ large on his face.
The DUP deserve the scorn of all who have cause to have contact with them
Habeus Corpus RIP
4- I agree. Although I know nothing about Dr. Palmer personally, he provides valuable insight here, which we all enjoy for free. He is a member of the parliamentary Labour group and no one here should be surprised that he behaves like one. He should not be singled out for scorn.
12. Would the DUP be turning away from the Tories because if EVFEL came in, the DUP would lose a lot of their leverage in the Commons?
you are completely wrong about this there are build in safeguards to this law
what can happen is:
the police can come to your house arrest you , put you in prison for 42 days,
release you then , rearrest you and then put you in prison again for 42 days, then
release you then , rearrest you and then put you in prison again for 42 days, then
release you then , rearrest you and then put you in prison again for 42 days, then
release you then , rearrest you and then put you in prison again for 42 days, then
etc
12 Tabman.
The Beeb leading on security breach, not 42 days.
I hope the Government is proud of giving us a detention-without-charge limit 21 times longer than America’s.
They have also given the Lords yet another chance to justify their existence, which ironically seems at the moment more important to our liberties than the Commons’.
I now know how those southern US voters must feel who have lived long enough to see the Democratic and Republican parties completely exchange positions over the course of a generaton.
We have a labour party pass increased detention without charge and push for identity cards. Now we see that the Ulster Unionists are more comfortable in the Labour camp.
Conversely we see all this opposed on principle by those bogey men in the venerable old Tory party. This is astonishing for somebody like me who as a young man saw these two parties in very black and white terms.
Now black is white and white is black. It seems we now have a Labour and Unionist Party. I have voted in all the elections since 1970, not always for the same party, but never Tory. But I no longer rule it out, particularly since in live in an area of no hope for Libdems and I have no time for the Green party.
15 - Your Lairdship! Hope you’re well.
Sad to see Yokel still spouting rubbish at the end of the last thread.
It does affect our lives Yokel because we care about a country where we and our friends and colleagues can go about our business without fear of persecution by the police and the authorities.
Now I, and I suspect most of the people on here, are lucky -in this case - because we happen to be white. But we also happen - at least I do and I am sure many others here do as well - to have friends who are not white. They are indians, pakistanis and many other races. They are all English (or not as the case may be) and they all have as much right to be here and to go about their lives free of fear of persecution as the rest of us.
And given the ’supposed’ nature of the terrorist threat, it is they who will unfortunately come under the spotlight and are at risk of being picked up and held for 6 weeks simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, met the wrong person, made the wrong phone call or happened to be related to someone who the police had some suspicion was up to something nasty.
If they happen to be unhappy about some aspect of life in Britain and had said some nasty things about Brown or Cameron or the Queen, if they were members of a gun club or had been surfing the net looking at some dodgy websites (as many people are prone to do especially if they are young and rebellious) then they may well fit perfectly into the profile the police are looking for as someone who might be involved in a plot.
Now not one thing I have listed above makes them any more likely to be an actual threat to the country, to me, you or even dear Mr Palmer and Gabble than my mother or your maiden aunt.
But as it now stands they can be picked up, held without charge for 6 weeks, refused any access to anyone except very limited legal council, be interrogated (humanely) and refused any information even about why they are being held. They will then be released without being told why they were ever arrested and expected to go back home and continue being a loyal, well adjusted and upright citizen.
Now if it turns out that the next time we see them is on a training video from Pakistan (maybe having paid to get there out of the £42,000 they were given for having been banged up by mistake) perhaps you might ask yourself whether or not they would have ended up there if they hadn’t been subjected to arbitrary and unjustified imprisonment for 6 weeks.
The only way we could think this doesn’t affect us is if we believe we are completely isolated and cocooned from the rest of society. By passing these sorts of laws you change society as a whole. You change the relationship between the people and the authorities and most particularly between the police and the very people they need to have on their side, the people who will provide them with information which will prevent another attack. You instill fear into people and you make them believe (rightly as it happens) that the things they thought were worth preserving in this country - justice and freedom - no longer exist.
Thats how you make terrorists.
Frankly we are no longer a free country.
Gordon Brown will say on National television tomorrow that he made no concessions to the DUP. If one of them breaks ranks and offers another account will he have to resign?
19 - Ship Builders?
8 - didn’t I read that although the referendum is not until tomorrow, all campaigning was banned from midnight last night?
Yokel - some of us do follow Northern Ireland and were aware of the threats to bring down the Executive. The current settlement is fragile and built on injustices. It doesn’t help strengthen democracy and the rule of law for the rest of the United Kingdom to move away from those freedoms long fought for. Agreed the Bill will have little impact and is more about sound and fury than actual action but compromising on certain rights inevitably weakens them and incrementally they are lost.
The Telegraph reports one of the bribes to the DUP was that Labour will make no moves on the removal on the Abortion ban that applies in Northern Ireland - wonder what the Deputy Leader thinks of that.
20- Richard, do you believe that the people you suspect are most likely to be the victim of unfair treatment further facilitated by this legislation will be less likely to continue to support the Labour Party in the aftermath of today’s events? This ties in to the discussion a few threads ago about how trade unionists may be a growing part of the group described as “swing voters.” Is there any group that Labour can still rely on to vote for them?
19. Quite well and the Tabman Clan ??
27 - we are all most well, thank you. Underworked and overpaid … ermmm … did I get that right?
I’ve never seen a BBC news broadcast so trash a Government-not even ours in the mid 90’s.
Gabble you get to keep Mr Brown till 2010 and then you will be out for a generation.
28 Tabman. Sounds like you need to try for an MEP seat !!
Nick Robinson on Browns chances of getting this through The Lords:
“Maybe opinion will change, Maybe the *CONTEXT* will change”
Gordon Brown hoping for a terrorist outrage?
26. I think British Muslims who left for the Lib Dems after Iraq might well be staying there for a while after this.
Just want to say I am so pleased I know that the protectors of our democracy, the unelected (and in some part hereditary) House of Lords will kick this ghastly bill where it belongs!
I also agree with most Conservatives on here though sadly not Yokel this time.
Personally, I think tonights behaviour of the DUP and the “deals” done behind closed doors for their votes are one of the strongest possible arguments against PR.
It enfranchises politicans of minor-parties with immense power to cut deals behind closed doors for reasons known only to themselves.
Of course, as tonight demonstrates, there is no guarantee that this will not happen under FPTP either. But, thankfully, it is blissfully rare.
29. I suppose they reaches a point where even your strongest supporters realise you are nothing more then a pile of sh*t.
Right, a moan (haha)
It makes me personally ashamed that our Members of Parliament voted this way. It is absolutely galling that our ancient liberties are being eroded purely to give Gordon Brown a ‘good’ headline.
Is this really what he entered politics for? To wreck our hard-won freedoms and plunge this country into mindless authoritarianism?
It makes me sick. I hope you’re happy, Mr Palmer.
/end rant.
Not just the DUP btw - apparently the Ulster Unionists’ one MP also voted with the government.
29. The BBC have a liberal-left belief system, which is obviously putting them increasingly at odds with the authoritarian left Labour party.
29 - “I’ve never seen a BBC news broadcast so trash a Government-not even ours in the mid 90’s.”
I guess some of the Tories here now have half a mind not to flog the Beeb to Murdoch.
Of course next week, you’ll all be back to the Beeb is biased line.
26
Not sure. Labour support has fallen so far already that I am not sure how much difference this would make. I am also not sure if they realise that this will affect them.
My concern is more that, just like most people who support the extension to 42 days, many of them do so in the belief that it will not be directed at them, that as long as they are not doing anything wrong then they have nothing to fear.
Now for most people statistically that will be the case. But proportionally, because police efforts are directed at certain communities, those communities are going to see far more of the mistaken arrests, the holding without charge and release without explanation. And at that point they are at best going to be very upset and at worst are, in some cases going to start believing some of the bile and rubbish being spouted by the extremists about cultural war and the need to defeat the west.
Yokel likes to use Northern Ireland as an example on occasion. I am minded that the British Army was sent in to Northern Ireland in 1969 to protect the minority catholic community from the attacks from people like Paisley and that the extremists on both sides were able to make use of this act as a means of starting (or rather exacerbating) the Troubles. The history of the Troubles is filled with examples of the authorities thinking they were doing the right thing and making the situation much much worse.
My opinion is that in this case Brown doesn’t even have the confort of thinking he is doing the right thing. He knows it is both unecessary and dangerous but is blinded to all of that by his desire to score political points over the Tories
re 32 and of course in certain jihadist mosques up and down the country there will be much rejoicing tonight.
37 - Silly Sylivia!
Another thought - if these ******s really are the guardians of our unwritten constitution, maybe we need a written one after all. Funny, I never felt the need under Callaghan, Thatcher or Major.
The DUP have made a serious error of judgement here. The wind is with the Tories, and the Tories won’t forget what the DUP have done today. Let the DUP have their moment of glory for their forty pieces of silver, but they should remember that from 2010 they will have to deal with a Tory government, probably until at least 2020. I hope they are prepared to be marginalised under the next Conservative government!
Re 41, Chris A “re 32 and of course in certain jihadist mosques up and down the country there will be much rejoicing tonight.”
Agreed.
40. Richard Tyndall: “…because police efforts are directed at certain communities, those communities are going to see far more of the mistaken arrests, the holding without charge and release without explanation.”
Why?
This is no more likely to happen with a 42 day limit than it was with the 28 day limit.
re 44 Quite right. The NI have their own assembly let’s see the Tories making a priority of reducing the NI seats back down to 12 at the absolute most.
44. As it happens, I wonder if the UUP would have been quite so spineless?
They were certainly more mainstream, moderate and more closely aligned to our policies. David Trimble even joined the Tories.
The DUP started out as nothing more than Anti-Catholic Bigots and Protestant Fundamentalists. They probably would have welcomed internment for most of Londonderry.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this authoritarian nature had changed little.
30 -
I’m averse to hard work!
Someone, please cheer us all up!! I never thought I would see the day when Labour MPs were prepared, and openly at that to trade things like Cuba sanctions and money for miners compensation schemes for civil liberties, a truly wretched day 350 of our dear leaders premiership. Well said Diane Abbott, will be very interested to hear what she says about it all on This Week tomorrow night. £2.7bn in a futile attempt to win the Crewe by-election, and now £1.2bn+ by all accounts just to get through todays vote - absolutely unbelievable! And all from a government that couldn’t spend a miniscule amount backdating police pay - it’s official, I’ve run out of negative superlatives for this!
403 on previous thread (Jon C) - very succinct summary of UK plc today. The person I really miss on here more than Innocent Abroad is Snowflakes, someone one day, maybe even me will delve the PB archives and put all of Snowflakes economic comments in italics, and then put their comments below each of her postings - I think it would make a great book! Maybe Ave It should become its author?! Seriously, I still think the average person doesn’t have one iota just how bad the UK / world economic situation is going to get over the next 6-12 months - can anyone imagine what things will be like with oil over $200 barrel, it doesn’t bear thinking about.
So… how long do people think it will take until Labour score under 20% in a national opinion poll?
39 SBS give me the BBC (not with standing Kirsty W, Jim N, et al) over our Australian/American friend anyday of the week…
47- never let it be said that the Tories are not vindictive.
51. I suspect they will actually get a short term boost after this, considering the authoritarian populism in it. However, it will probably damage them in the longer run, as while people like the policy it will subconsciously lower their opinion of the Labour party, who are fast becoming little more than an acceptable version of the BNP.
52. Seconded.
40 There have been 6 cases of suspects held for 28 days. 3 were subsequently charged and 3 released, without being placed under a control order or even under surveillance so were viewed by police as completely innocent - so that’s 3 innocent people held in detention for a month. The overall figures for people detained over the past 8 years under the 2000 Act and its successors are IIRC much the same - half (or more?) of suspects released without charge or follow up, mostly after a few days but almost all after a longer period of detention than applied prior to 2000.
Re 46, Gabble, “This is no more likely to happen with a 42 day limit than it was with the 28 day limit.”
You make a good case for the repeal of that offensive piece of legislation!
I didn’t agree with 42-day detention (but don’t see it as that huge a deal either).
But, Yokel is essentially correct in his assessment of the DUP’s position. Given that no British government will behave well towards unionists of its own volition, they have to wring concessions as and when they can.
Anyone watch The Falklands play? Patricia Hodge was amazing as Maggie.
re 53, SBS “47- never let it be said that the Tories are not vindictive.”
Today we are just angry. Well incandescent actually!
We will not be vindictive.
50. A bit of good news?
Despite this vote, Labour are still on course for a crushing and humiliating defeat that will put them out of office for two Parliaments, if not more!
58 - I understand that, though you overlook the point that the DUP and the Tories have reasonable links. Do you think they were wise to upset the Tory party so badly, given the current state of mainland UK politics?
46 Gabble - many opposed 28 days, it only got through as a compromise when faced with 90 days. I’d prefer we reverted to 3 days with extensions of additional 4 days and possibly a second extension to 14 days based on evidence presented to a High Court Judge that there was a case for prolonged detention.
59 - The young actress playing her in the new drama (Long Walk to Finchley?) is wonderful - Andrea Riseborough - a name to watch for the future.
62 - The DUP is closer to Brown’s type of labour party much more than it is to Cameron’s conservatives.
61 - lol!!!!
39. If the BBC reports a story that is positive for Labour, the BBC is biased.
If the BBC reports a story that is anti-Labour, it shows that things are so bad for Labour that even the BBC must report it.
It’s a remarkable act of doublethink.
Re 66, G “If the BBC reports a story that is anti-Labour, it shows that things are so bad for Labour that even the BBC must report it.”
Well, I have not seen the coverage as yet, but if they are trashing Labour over winning.. just think what they would do if they lost?
62 While there were links between the UUP and some Conservatives, such as Lord Salisbury, I don’t think there are many between the DUP and Conservatives. The DUP are very introspective. In any case, Robinson probably reckons he has two years to mend fences with the Conservatives. He can point out that Brown remains in place as PM, and Labour have to bear the force of any economic hurricane coming our way.
Opposition MPs who voted with the Government:
DUP
Gregory Campbell
Nigel Dodds
Jeffrey Donaldson
William McCrea
Ian Paisley
Iris Robinson
Peter Robinson
David Simpson
Sammy Wilson
UKIP
Bob Spink
Con
Anne Widdecombe
Ind
Dai Davies
UUP
Lady Hermon
This posturing over numbers is truly sick-making.
People piously claiming they are making a unique stand for freedom because they support 28 days instead of 42.
Or, claiming we are one step from nazism because suspected terrorists may be (but probably won’t be) detained for an extra 2 weeks.
Literally, politics by numbers. A serious problem reduced to an episode of Sesame St.
True champions of freedom recogise that what really counts are the rights of the suspect and the duty on the police and the judiciary to detain them for the shortest possible time.
Today of all days I am extremely proud to be British. Across parties, race, and creed we are united in condemning this utterley shameless piece of gutter politics led by the very worst excuse for a prime minister this country as ver had.
Our freedom is the one thing that binds us all together and its hugely encouraging that the defence of our freedoms seems to have united us again.
In two years the wretched McSporran will be consigned to history together with this foul piece of legislation and his cowardly supporters.
It is sad that it takes such an odious prime minister and abhorent piece of politcking to remind us why our democracy is so important.
This attack on our freedoms by such unworthy leaders of this great country will be long remembered and never forgiven.
68 I’d add that (in a slightly similar way to the Iraq war) that while Tory MPs overwhelmingly voted against this measure, plenty of Tory members and voters think it’s a good idea (some of them were telling me so today).
47
As I have alreeady told you that is not an argument you can use against me as I also opposed the extension to 28 days.
re 25 well Ms Harman can always vote against the HFE Bill at 3rd reading - after all large chunks of the cabinet all already planning to.
70. Should Cameron withdraw the whip from Widdecombe?
66. The BBC would love the DUP (who Guardianistas hate with a passion) to get the blame.
The next exercise is to find a way of projecting a story that an innocent Lab PM was led astray by those nasty Unionists.
73. Except that over Iraq, Tory MPs were almost uniformly spineless. There’s no place for revisionism there.
Incidentally, how does this 42 days legislation stand up in Scotland? Do they have this forced on them? Or can the Scottish parliament opt out? Do they already have a 42 day limit?
71. Should we tax the poor 10p or 50p?
It’s all posturing over numbers, 10.1p is basically 10p, right? So why not 50p?
It’s about saying, “this far, and no further.”
[71] - Heh. Most people opposed to 42 days were also opposed to 28 days, so your ridicule at people for drawing a distinction between the two is misplaced.
71- Numbers are irrelevant but they are there as a talking point. The principle is what is being argued about and, frankly, I thought 28 days was far too long in any case.
A labour supporter has no business today talking about freedom, don’t embarrass yourself by claiming that you care about it.
Also I’d back up Yokel’s comment. The bill is a disgraceful affront to civil liberties, but it looks like the DUP has played the game well from its parochial perspective.
77. Sorry - 67.
82. Spot on ukpaul.
re 71 Gabble 28 days is an abomination too.
67.
(a) That’s not what I said.
(b) I have the same opinion as Andrew Marr on BBC bias, I don’t think that’s particularly extreme.
I’ve given up even reading Gabbles replys, never mind replying to them.
O/T football betting; back Turkey to qualify now at anything over 2.3 and lay off on the day when people realise that the game is going to penalties if it’s a draw.
Re 71, Gabble “True champions of freedom recogise that what really counts are the rights of the suspect and the duty on the police and the judiciary to detain them for the shortest possible time.”
Well I am not happy with either 28 days or 42.
Many of those held for 28 days have not been question for a week!
Seriously if you do not think this is a problem you will when we go to tackle regimes on human rights and get laughed at as well as get more terrorists recruited.
77. See what i mean? Every time the BBC doesn’t conform to a “BBC BIASED!!!!!” response, it’s rationalised away.
this “victory” of Brown is completely overshadowed by the incompetence of the government at keeping secure information in any way secret. ID cards anyone?
God no wonder they want 42 days. they are so lax with the security information in their posession they actually raise the terrorist threat by these leaks. how many more secret documents HAVENT been handed in i wonder? and in whose hands are they?
87. I wasn’t referring to you in particular. More the type of mindset seen on ConHome and with b. above.
90. Benedict White: “Well I am not happy with either 28 days or 42.”
Here we go again! Another round of detention bingo.
So, what arbitary number are YOU going to pluck out of the air?
I note that UKIP MP Bob Spink also voted for stripping our most cherished freedoms from us. So, UKIP get an MP and the first major thing he does is attack the very essence of Britishness. Well that was worth the wait!
I love the recent joke that UKIP are now trying to be a “libertarian” party of “defending British heritage”. Um. I think not. Judge by actions not words. UKIP are nothing more than a bunch of Europhobic populists. They backed the measure because they thought it was popular in the country - nothing more, nothing less. This will do them massive damage because it shows them for what they are: an unprincipled rag-tag of populists.
Re 94 Gabble “So, what arbitary number are YOU going to pluck out of the air?”
How revealing, you make up some arbitrary number and then decide that is how long you can detain them without charge.
That says far more about you than I.
Shame on Gabble for not having the ounce of sense to realise that you cannot square prattling on about the rights of the suspect with support for indefinite detention.
Also, via Hansard, the SDLP, SNP and PC were united in opposing it.
Galloway, Dr Taylor, the two “Cons with whip withdrawn”, Clare Short as “Independent Labour” and Bob Wareing (resigned Labour whip) all voted against.
95 - Presumably UKIP will now be advocating an open border policy if they are now a libertarian party.
Is there anything in the public domain on the timing of the find, and the BBC breaking the news relative to the Commons vote?
It seems so odd that admission that sensitive papers are lost on the same day as this vote.
100 - They were found yesterday, plenty of time for the BBC to have a good look at it…..
“Why Palmer, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world… but for £3000 a day?”
96. Benedict White
OK, having looked at all the evidence and after careful consideration, please let us all know what the correct number is?
101. Are you sure?
98. Who were the 11 MPs who were on the deathbeds or otherwise detained, and who didn’t vote?
Re 100, Dr Spyn “It seems so odd that admission that sensitive papers are lost on the same day as this vote.”
Per Newsnight - Labour MPs were offered help with finding new seats.
Haven’t we been told repeatedly on this site that it is against Labour Party rules for Labour MPs to move to safer seats?
78 No that’s not my point. My point is that many Conservative voters and members don’t agree with their MPs on this issue (as with Iraq). I’m not commenting on the rights and wrongs of either issue.
WRT this one, it’s just political posturing. Brown has made so many concessions and loopholes that the police will never want to invoke this power. My own personal view is that 7 days detention without charge is about right (and the police can always release someone and then re-arrest them if necessary).
95 UKIP are all over the place on this one. Doubtless they’ll have a split over it.
106. I’m not biting.
I wonder how Sean Fear’s Tory members and Tory voters will feel when they find themselves detained for 42 days - and probably tortured into the bargain - just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Re 103, Gabble, “OK, having looked at all the evidence and after careful consideration, please let us all know what the correct number is?”
The short answer is that there have been many suggestions on how to get around the longer detention without trial issue such as allowing questioning after trial.
The short answer is that I am horrified at anything over 17, could possibly be persuaded for 14, but only just.
110. Not many Tory supporters fit the profile of people who blow up public transport, or wish to rage holy war upon the West.
“This posturing over numbers is truly sick-making.”
And your insistence that we should do without those numbers altogether makes me want to heave.
Will Mr Palmer come on this thread to condemn Gabble’s support for indefinite detention (judicially supervised or otherwise, it’s irrelevant)? Will he hell.
103 - You want figures, wrap your brain around these -
Canada - 24 hours
South Africa, New Zealand and Germany - 2 days
Denmark and Norway - 3 days
Italy - 4 days
Russia and Spain - 5 days
France - 6 days
Ireland - 7 days
Turkey - 7.5 days
Australia - 12 days.
USA - 48 hours (excluding the disgrace that is Gauntanamo Bay).
I’d go for the lower end of that list. Why have you got to be so different to any other sane country?
Re 109, G “106. I’m not biting.”
Oh Go on!
95
I suspect that Mr Spink might find himself having ot answer some awkward questions over the next few days.
I just googled the UKIP website and found their policy document on law and order. Under the section on Terrorism they say:
“UKIP would abolish Control Orders, as we regard detention without trial as an improper state of affairs.”
Now I know Control Orders are not the same as the detention without trial passed tonight but how do they square Mr Spinks vote with the bit on “…we regard detention without trial as an improper state of affairs”?
104 - Yes, they were found on ‘Tuesday’ according to the BBC article.
110 I think that most people think that it will never happen to them.
114. But do those countries allow further questioning once charges have been made?
Re 116, Richard Tyndall “I suspect that Mr Spink might find himself having ot answer some awkward questions over the next few days.”
But will they get their leader in the House of Commons to withdraw the whip from Mr Spink
105,
Dunno. Hansard’s not as convenient as They Work For You, but it’s available tonight. I had to go through the list of “Ayes” and cross-refer quickly to the list of MPs - all Labour, DUP, UUP, Widdie or Dai Davies.
I then looked up the specific SNP, PC, SDLP and assorted one-man/Indies to cross-refer with the Noes.
I’m willing to wait for tomorrow to get the abstainers
“The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.”
- Winston Churchill, Nov. 21, 1943
119 - You don’t see the massive difference staring at you in that statement?
Conservative spokesman accusing Labour of misleading the house on Newsnight just now.
108. Will those Tories who oppose Cameron get braver if he fails to discipline Widdecombe?
So, does anybody know how this 42 legislation effects the Scottish parliament and Gordon Browns voters?
123. I am not supporting the 42 day proposals, just pointing out that i believe our procedures prevent further questioning once charges have been made, do theirs work in the same way?
If so, it sounds like it is the questioning of suspects post charge that needs to be looked at rather then 42 days without charge.
Re 126, GIN “So, does anybody know how this 42 legislation effects the Scottish parliament and Gordon Browns voters?”
It doesn’t as it will not make it to the statute book!
On a more serious note, the relevant law officer in Scotland will not use it, end of apparently.
126 GIN. It’s a Westminster reserve issue.
126. The legislation doesnt apply to terrorists who intend to hurt any member of Alex Salmonds Executive….
128. and 129. Thanks you.
Terror files on train cock-up now headlining at bbc.news.co.uk. Glad to know this government takes security so seriously.
111. Benedict White: “The short answer is that I am horrified at anything over 17, could possibly be persuaded for 14, but only just.”
That’s Numberwang!
What should the speed limit on motorways be, Gabble?
Maybe I don’t understand this, but if, say, 20 cells were coordinated to set off 100 bombs in London all on the same day and killed, say 5000, maimed 20000, crippled the city …. does this bill mean that we can only hold suspects for 42 days?
Is there no other legislation we could use to hold suspects for longer - religious psychopaths who believe life precedes something better; idiots who profit from mass murder. You only need a few big events to agitate a tiny percentage of Britain’s 2m muslims and there could be bombs going off all over the place.
Far better, under such circumstances, to keep the implicated banged up, if need be for months and months, rather than having suspects outside, tying up police time and threatening our freedom and safety.
20:29 GMT, Wednesday, 11 June 2008 21:29 “However, it appears that in a serious breach of the rules, the papers were taken out of Whitehall by an unnamed official and left in an orange cardboard envelope on the seat of a Surrey-bound train from London Waterloo on Tuesday.
When a fellow passenger saw the material inside the envelope, they gave it to the BBC. ”
The timing of the announcement of the ‘find’ is still odd, yet there was mention on Newsnight that the find was on Tuesday.
Information is power, and so too is the timing of its release.
I don’t think it is possible to tell, just from looking at him, whether a person is a Tory voter or not. So Tory voters are just as likely to get imprisoned without trial, or even shot, as anybody else. Provided they are in the wrong place at the wrong time: like getting on a train in south central London, for example.
This Government is giving the police incredible powers over everybody. Perhaps Sean Fear’s Tory members trust this government and all those that may follow it more than I do.
136. No mention made of the timing of the find on Tuesday on tonight’s Newsnight.
Next year, airport staff who refuse Labour’s ID cards will presumably be fired. And yet the civil servant who left top-secret, terrorist-related documents on the train hasn’t even been suspended.
Labour MPs who did not vote in either lobby on the division:
Charlotte Atkins (Staffordshire Moorlands)
John Austin (Erith & Thamesmead)
Karen Buck (Regent’s Park & Kensington North)
Martin Caton (Gower)
David Marshall (Glasgow East)
Eddie O’Hara (Knowsley South)
Nick Raynsford (Grenwich & Woolwich)
Mark Todd (Berbyshire South)
Paul Truswell (Pudsey)
Rdui Vis (Finchley & Golders Green)
Re 133, Gabble “That’s Numberwang!”
No I should have written 7 not 17!
116, Richard: Judge parties by their actions not their words. The first time UKIP got to prove their credentials in the House of Commons, they sided with populism over liberty. They are not libertarian. Never have been. Never will be.
Alistair Darling is not very upbeat on Labour’s hopes in the next election.
“We have to go into the next election almost with the mentality of an opposition party and say what it is we want to do at the next stage, what it is we think is wrong that still needs to be put right,”
Defeatism has set in already.
135 — Sparky, come back here when you’ve 1) stopped watching so many episodes of ‘24′, and 2) read the Civil Contingencies Act.
Betfair have put up a market for Henley, no odds on offer as of now
137 I think that most people are too willing to give the authorities the benefit of the doubt over issues this this, but that’s a general trait.
142 In truth, I think you have people of all backgrounds who are united only by their dislike for the EU, but little else.
Well I’m off to bed, furious, resigned and indignant. How much further into the political sewar will Labour go? I expect Brown, as he becomes more and more desperate, will try more and more extreme measures to try and court favour with the British people. These are now terrifying times to live in Britain, with a PM thats clearly nuts and will go to ANY LEVEL in order to turn around his poll ratings and cling on to power. The damage that this unelected Scottish extremist could potentially do to this country and its long suffering people is almost unlimited - As though we haven’t suffered enough under Labour already.
And yet, in a way, seeing the way 90% of people from all political spectrums have been united on this has been pretty refreshing. Moreover, I suspect the British people will see straight through this, and are on to the political game the scheming Brown is playing. We must hope that the more creepy and scheming he gets, the more people will see through him. I don’t expect much if any lift in the polls for Brown on this. The weeks biggest issue, as far as voters are concerned, is the ever worsening economy.
And so we go on, waiting breathlessly to see what damage the Labour Party will next do to this poor country they are step by step destroying with apparent glee. Their day of reakoning is coming though. And what a day to savour it will be.
I have noticed many Tories here are hinting about some sort of a revenge for DUP when Tories come to power. What would it be? Altering the Oath of Allegiance so that the Sinn Féin MPs can take their seats? Arranging a referendum in NI about unification with The Republic of Ireland? Gerrymandering the NI constituencies in favour of UUP? Allowing abortion in NI? Let the air out of the DUP MPs tires? Many of these don’t sound very likely actions for a Conservative government, but I can’t think of other ways to get even with DUP. Something else, what?
140. Cheers. So we’re still missing 1, I think!
136.”The timing of the announcement of the ‘find’ is still odd, yet there was mention on Newsnight that the find was on Tuesday.
Information is power, and so too is the timing of its release.”
I must admit that the timing of the BBC breaking the news that someone had handed these documents into them after finding on a train has really set my antennae going.
I cannot believe that the Beeb did not contact and notify the relevant powers that be in the government about this before they went public. Now I want to know WHOSE decision it was to time the announcement to coincide with the vote in Parliament. Did it just boil down to checking with lawyers and the government about how candid their report could be, or was there some heel dragging or bartering about the timing?
“Libertarianism” is an over-sued word on the right nowadays: a bad habit caught from the US. Very few people subscribe to the sort of consistent, significant, and comprehensive limitation - permanently - on the powers of the state that real libertarianism would mean in practice, with the various implications for crime, immigration and defence, to take three areas. And there are many areas where there’s a perfectly respectable case on the right for a strong, but fair state, even in areas of the economy.
The Oath of Allegiance should be changed. People of all political persuasions should be allowed to sit in parliament, if the public have voted for them - and they shouldn’t have to lie to do so.
The MP for Glenrothes showed up today
I certainly don’t think the Oathof Allegiance should be tampered with. The great servants of the State have to be loyal to that State: and that means the Crown. Sinn Fein exclude themselves because they’re not interested (except under the special condiitons of the GFA) of working within a British polity. They represent a desire to secede, not a desire to participate.
149. A referendum in Great Britain as to whether the union with Northern Ireland should be severed; it would have a good chance of passing.
154.I noticed that. Good to see you posting Andrea, someone was saying you are now too busy working to post much anymore. Did you get a job involving politics if you don’t mind me asking?
157. Hi Chris. Nah, no politics (sadly, maybe). I’m working at a paid project at the uni for 1 year.
a notable absence in the past few days is david roe of the sun. normally he is quite pro-tory but i suspect that he is a tad embarassed by his editorial line or thinks the tories are in the wrong. or he is just on holiday
Re 156, CDM “149. A referendum in Great Britain as to whether the union with Northern Ireland should be severed; it would have a good chance of passing.”
How would you phrase the question?
Do you?
Favour a continuing union with Norther Ireland?
Tell the whinging troublesome f*ckers to f*ck off?
Please select one option only!
Seriously I suspect many on the mainland despair of the politics in Northern Ireland, and whilst I don’t think such a vote would be for setting Northern Ireland adrift it would not be with any enthusiasm.
160. Even if the vote wasn’t to sever the union, the closeness of the vote would send an almighty jolt through unionism.
158. Which one year paid Uni project is Andrea undertaking? :
1. Political context of Chris Bryant underpants.
2. The naked truth of Hunky Dinky Dunky.
3. Conservatism and Anne Widdecombe’s bloomers.
4. The tree rings on Nick Clegg’s bedpost.
158.Andrea that’s a lost to politics, but good luck on the project. Don’t be a stranger to PB.com, you are one of its most valuable assets and sadly missed.
And as I said on a previous thread, I miss our Hunky Dunky love in.
New NBC/WSJ Poll :
McCain 41% .. Obama 47%
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25096620/
159.David is in Ireland working hard furthering Anglo Irish relations.
144 Thanks Horse, for pointing to the CCA - I understand that 28 days may be extended by max 30 days under Emergency Regulations, and further extensions may be granted if necessary, but that extensions may be challenged (by Gareth Peirce no doubt) under the HRA. Never watch 24 - not a big TV person.
162. Jack, I recognized it was you even before finishing the comment and reading the name!
163. Chris, Isn’t Dinky set to marry in the summer anyway? I may have to switch my attention to Widdy if her cats aren’t jelous
167 Andrea. Ho ho !!
G’Nite all …. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Best speech was by Diane Julie Abbott. Really, I was astonished to hear her put it straight to Brown about it all being tactics and how unseemly and shameful this was when he was playing mean party politics with basic liberties. I paraphrase, of course.
The majority of the public agree with 42 days until they or one of their loved ones is held without charge for that period, at which point it becomes an outrage.
Historical parallels abound of authoritarians being supported for ‘national security’ and draconian measures being introduced and then, bingo, people find it is all too late and their freedoms are gone.
9. Yes because they were milking this opportunity without changing the bigger picture.
The bigger downside overall is if they voted against. Defeat may have helped bring down Brown but not the government. NI is an easy target to hit and there are plenty in the government happy enough to side with the opponents of the UK, who lest we forget were trying to blow places up not so long ago, just to get back at the DUP.
Another issue and their verdict may have been different.
The DUP line that they were always in principle against internment needs to be seen in the context that they were quite happy to see as many IRA members shot dead by the security forces as possible, without much questioning of the circumstances.
Just for a bit of background. I’m agnostic to moderately opposed about the 42 day concept. Whilst I understand its uses I havent seen anything suggesting that its a) absolutely needed (you always work on the principle of doing just the minimal amount of whats required over regular process and 28 seems ok) and perhaps ironically, b) all the apparent oversights and the ludicrious compensation idea actually might 1) stymie its effective use and indeed put some decisions in the wrong hands and 2) add things on it that have no relevance whatsoever.
38. The fragrant Sylvia..whos husband was Jack..fornmer RUC Chief Constable and one formidable figure. Sylvia herself is fairly liberal Tory minded sort from what I’ve seen.
21. I didnt see you much caring about this part of the UK did I. You didnt even know diddley about how things were over here. Thus try to understand why I think you are full of sh1te based on a general view that if it comes from the government its bad. Talk about playing party politics…
Re last thread Gabble at 254 “241. b.: ““judicially controlled