The PB Poster of 2008: the Final round
December 29th, 2008
Your chance to choose from the final four
We are now at the final stage in the battle to become PB Poster of 2008. There are now just four people left in the contest:-
Voting will be by email to this address. Simply give your email the title - “My Vote” followed by the name of your choice as it appears. Thus “My vote SallyC” does it. Do not write any body text in your email because these will not be opened.
Please vote just once in the manner set out which has been designed to make it easy at my end. Voting starts immediately and will continue until 2359 on New Year’s Eve. The result will be announced the following evening.
You will appreciate that it will be difficult for me to enter into any correspondence about the election and my decision has to be final final. I am sure that none of us want this to be affected by voting irregularities.
Today’s cartoon by Marf is her final one of the year. Her website is LondonSketchbook.com.
MessageSpace Advertising
Well first then
Belated congratulations to SeanT for his nomination as half-wit of the year.
Genuine congratulations to David Herdson in particular and to Jack W and Sally C.
O/T Repost
If our country was being regularly rocketed from a neighbouring country, I would fully expect our government to hunt down and destroy the perpetrators.
The first duty of any democratic government is the security of it’s people.
The comparison with Ireland is completely wrong-headed. The IRA did not govern Ireland - if they had, of course we would have been justified in dismantling it’s apparatus in response to their terrorist acts. As it was, we (and the Irish) targeted and attempted to disarm the terrorists on both sides. This is exactly what the Israelis are doing - they deserve our support.
Gaza is a camp — not a viable territory…
“I cannot enter into any correspondence about the election and my decision on all matters is final. If I think that there are voting irregularities I will act accordingly.”
This is all suddenly quite scary and forbidding. Are we swapping security of the ballot for an extremely low turnout?
2. Shove yer vote up yer butt. I don’t want it. I DO want Israel to survive.
But the way she acts, she won’t.
Killing children because there is an election on the way. It’s a new low. Even for Israel.
This is a thread about nominations.According to your strategy,Gabble,I suggest ‘anyone but Sean T’.
Repost from last thread:
231. Again - a failure to listen and understand the nuances of the conflict. Hamas is not Palestine - you forget the West Bank where Abbas and Fatah actually seeks a dialogue with Israel & from which a 2 state solution could still emerge. Hamas are the group which will only consider a one state solution - one involving the destruction of Israel.
re 5. Possibly.
sean T- I am a professional READER of Forums.I sniffed you out long time.
I am going to vote for Jack W and insist that if he wins, he collects his prize in person at the next PB.com bash
I suggest Gabble learns the difference between ‘its’ and ‘it’s’. Make a mistake like that when your filling out you’re ID card application form and you could be fined, chum.
(For bonus points, spot the deliberate grammatical mistakes I made above…)
10. You “sniffed me out long time?”
Don’t think so. As all regular readers know, I like short time.
3- Israel’s actions are child’s play next to the immortal exploits of one Bomber Harris, whose statue stands proudly in London.
” Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, Islam and Arab are not entirely homogenous, any more than Christian and European are.”
– Of course. But jihadis — both Sunnis and Shias and …. — are uniting against a common enemy.
In a way analogous to the alliance between Mujahiddeens and the US against the Red Army in Afghanistan… or to that between some Serbs and Croats against Bosnian Muslims…
——-
“From a purely practical point which country wants to absorb 4 million poor (I’m assuming) people in one go.”
I said : why the Islamic world does not host ‘em (if they care so much about the deterritorialised situation of the Palestinian people)? — I was not referring to a single country…
“I sniffed you out long time.”
Anyone remember that scene with the hooker in ‘Full Metal Jacket’? “I make boom-boom long time.”
14. Ridiculous.
The building in Marf’s picture bears a remarkable resemblance to PB’s spiritual home, the National Liberal Club?
And isn’t that SeanT on the balcony with his hand on Sally’s boob?!
8. One of the groups. There are Israeli ones as well. Trying to pick one side or the other is picking your preferred turd.
4. Your argument seems to be that because Israel’s actions have made a Palestinian state non-viable, the Israelis have the moral right to gobble up their reamining territory, declare the Palestinians a “people without territory” and then declare that the reason the Palestinians don’t have their own state is that other dastardly Muslims have failed to “host” them elsewhere. A neat trick if you can manage it. Maybe we should colonise Denmark, and demand that other Christians “host” the Danish state elsewhere. How about northern Canada - that’s fairly empty at this time of year.
Scampi from previous thread - get off your high horse. I am well aware of the distinction between Hamas and Fatah, but you’re the one criticising others for “polarising” the conflict and then dismissing just one party to that conflict as the “bad guys”.
This is the deal,sean T.When the subject is neutral I enjoy your posts.
From time to time I sniffed out your didsdain for the Jewish people.I waited and I waited.Your post on the other thread describing the people of Israel as ‘kiddyfiddlers’ told me almost all I need to know about overrated,narcissistic popinjays like sean T.
14 And Curtis Le May. That said, neither Britain nor the USA would have likely embarked on carpet-bombing had they not experienced and witnessed German and Japanese barbarism. Max Hastings’ Nemesis makes extremely chilling reading.
And isn’t that Roger with the dog?
..I voted for Woger !
21. Yes. That’s right. Anyone who criticises Israel basically wants to get the cattle trucks rolling.
Sorry old chap but this Holocaust card NO LONGER WORKS. It’s sad and pathetic. You’re like some tramp rubbing himself in the park. Stop it.
WRT Israel/Palestine, what I would like to see is every West Bank settlement dismantled. But that doesn’t preclude Israel’s right to retaliate against those Palestinians who simply wish to destroy Israel (like Hamas).
I don’t play the ‘holocaust card’ 25 ‘old chap’.It is old chaps like you who want to play the ‘let’s forget the holocaust and play a new game’.
The new game invariably leads to a new ‘improved’ version of the old game…Holocaust 2 ‘
For Red Meteor: On the valuation Palestinians put on their own lives:
“Egypt says the Hamas militant group, which controls Gaza, is preventing hundreds of wounded Palestinians from leaving for treatment in Egypt.
…
Egypt’s Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said the wounded were “barred from crossing” and he blamed “those in control of Gaza” for putting the lives of the injured at risk.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801881.stm
26
The sad thing is that neither side - by their words and actions - deserve support.
27. You say you voted for Roger. You obviously aren’t that close a reader of pb.com, despite your claims, otherwise you’d know that there is probably no fiercer critic of Israel on this board than Roger.
During the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (an action I felt was arguably more justified than the present Gaza barbarity) Roger described Israel as “behaving like a wild animal”.
Perhaps Roger also wants to rebuild Treblinka and get out the old Zyklon B?
Only problem for your tedious thesis: Roger is Jewish. Hey. Maybe he wants to gas himself?
Go and have a lie down, you confused old fool.
The most important to remember about the territory of Israel is that The land of Abraham was given for eternity to the people of Abraham.
22- I certainly didn’t intend to excuse the Americans, either. Barbarism by today’s standards used to be standard fare for combatants of all stripes. The Germans and Japanese practiced barbarism in their own ways; the British, Americans and Russians in their own ways. The sort of fighting that goes on in Palestine/Israel today amounts to a mere pinprick compared to what was practiced and celebrated as heroism by our own countries only a few generations ago. If Israel had existed and practiced this sort of warfare back then, it would have been a trifling matter. I’m not intending to pick sides here but merely pointing to a bit of historical reference relevant to those in the UK/U.S. who wish to comment on the matter.
Are you a Lib Dem,madasafish ? Sounds like a pronouncement minted from their playbook.
I would like to congratulate the above winners as well as all those who were nominated.
I would also like to thank each and every person who was kind enough to cast a vote for me.
17
Why exactly ridiculous Sean. If it was acceptable for Harris and Bomber command to kill civilians as part of a strategy to defeat the Germans then why is it now unacceptable for Israel to do the same. Actually Harris was embarked on a strategy which directly targeted civilians as a means of defeating the German war machine. Why then are the Israelis worse when they kill civilians who they are not directly targeting? Or is it was because Harris was British and Israel are, well, not.
Maybe I was wrong to vote for Woger.Maybe I should have voted for Ave it.
This ‘confused old fool’ turned over more money gambling in 115 minutes than all the members of this board will do in a lifetime.
15. Uniting in fighting someone is a step short of inviting them to stay.
See how Western countries try and push off even asylum seekers they all agree are genuine refugees upon each other. Imagine the arguments there’d be over 4 million being taken in at once. Or even agreeing
And the Islamic World mostly sees them as having a territory, that’s been partially annexed by Israel. The right solution as they see it is to win their land back.
And again, the Palestinians themselves seem rather unwilling to leave.
31. “The most important to remember about the territory of Israel is that The land of Abraham was given for eternity to the people of Abraham.”
OK, I give up. You’re bonkers.
33
Me a LibDem?
No. I have a brain and use it thanks.
32. Dude, the Nazis were trying to conquer the whole of Europe (and wipe out entire races to boot). In 1941 Hitler was in control of the greatest war machine ever assembled by man. He came quite close to conquering Britain - not least by using mass and indiscriminate terror bombing, a deliberate innovation which the Nazis rehearsed and perfected in the Spanish Civil War
Britain was entirely justified in responding in kind, if that was the best way to ensure her survival, and defeat the most dangerous enemy ever faced by civilisation.
Vietnam was rather different. The bombing of Gaza is utterly incomparable.
You normally make sensible points. This is not one of them.
20. I see no point in criticising either or both sides ove what is one incident in so many. The posturing we have seen today plays into the hands of the extremists. This is what they want. However, where I do take sides unashamedly is on the right of the Israeli state to exist with in the borders more or less of pre-1967 and the lefty/liberal panderers to the idea of ‘Jihad’ against the Jew work against any kind of meaningful 2-state solution of that kind.
38, although I too disagree that that sentiment should matter, to some it does.
35, see 40.
re 27 URW yes you do play the holcaust card, I’m afraid. You say in the last thread basically people were beastly to the Jews in the last century so that excuses all Jewish action for evermore. It stinks as an argument. There are many Jeiwsh people who are ashamed at the actions of the Israeli government.
Bloody hell, the hyperbole’s a bit over the top in here today.
Lets remember shall we that most Arab countries have embarked on mass killings of Muslim Brotherhood activists (Syria killed between 10 and 20,000 in on week) and yet the language of carpet bombings was strangely absent.
Secular Palestinians have the most to benefit from the killing of armed Hamas personnel (80% of casualties)
Israel has the most to ,ose by killing civilians (20% of the casualties.)
Does anyone see the contradiction between URW’s first and last sentence:
“I don’t play the ‘holocaust card’ 25 ‘old chap’.It is old chaps like you who want to play the ‘let’s forget the holocaust and play a new game’.
The new game invariably leads to a new ‘improved’ version of the old game Holocaust 2 ‘”
?
38. I think (hope?) Philippe Magnan is being pointedly satirical.
28. You didn’t like my Swedish analogy last night, so how about this - British citizens are proven suicide bombers (7/7, etc). This proves that British citizens do not value their own lives. Therefore, other peoples are entitled to treat the lives of British citizens as less valuable than their own, and may accordingly slaughter them by the dozen to achieve any desired objective. Is that about right, under your world-view?
31 “The most important to remember about the territory of Israel is that The land of Abraham was given for eternity to the people of Abraham.”
That will be the same Abraham who is also a Muslim Prophet called Ibrahim, will it? That helps clear that up then…
31. That really depends on which God’s fanclub you subscribe to. Islam is after all one of the Abrahamic religions, and Muslims count Mohamed as descending from Abraham.
But trying to restore claims after millennia is an idea that if applied wider would open barrels of worms.
Even the Bible though has the original Israelites annexing Israel rather than being indigenous.
49 Well, Mark, I don’t think we’re talking about the old five by two who ran the eel shop in London Fields….but then it is a popular name.
re 41 “more or less 1967 borders”?
Anything taken since 1967 has been done in definance of international law. By this reckoning if we decided that Ulster should be one again and unilaterally annexed counties Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan that would be perfectly acceptable.
41. “However, where I do take sides unashamedly is on the right of the Israeli state to exist with in the borders more or less of pre-1967″
Scampi, that’s precisely what I want as well. Unfortunately, Israel seems to want to permanently expand its territory well beyond the pre-1967 borders.
I live amongst and like my neighbours who commonly are Hindu,Sikh and Muslim.
My beef is chiefly with people like Red Meteor and
@25:
SeanT, go easy on him. As well you know, there are many, many people on the left who use criticism of Israel as a narrow veneer of acceptability for their own rabid antisemitism. You only have to read Comment is Free on a regular basis to understand the connection between New Left thinking and rabid judaeoscepticism.
That nobody needs to lecture you on how filthy The Left are is beside the point. He’s on your side man, united against a common enemy. Achtung, Lefties.
Pound hits new low against euro
The pound has hit a new record low against the euro as the grim outlook for the UK economy continues to put downward pressure on the currency.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7802981.stm
Met Office warns of Siberian blast and freezing weather
How bad could this winter sink? The weather maps are a chilling reminder of some our most savage winters, such as the notorious 1962-63 winter, the coldest for 180 years. This was when the sea froze around the coast of southeast England and crops were dug out of frozen ground with pneumatic drills and blizzards paralysed the nation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article5409222.ece
“Now is the Winter of our Discontent…”
54… and…and….and?
I live amongst and like my neighbours who commonly are Hindu,Sikh and Muslim.
My beef is chiefly with people like Red Meteor and sean T;people who like to take the moral highground SPECIFICALLY against the Jewish people.
Back later. This conversation sounds like fertile trolling ground. Somebody keep the pot warm for me.
Thanks.
Anyway….have people here just discovered that their supplies of bile have a 12/2008 expiry date? Is it “use it or lose it” day?
[dons red tracksuit and black curly wig] CALM DOWN!!
I went on a fascinating fact-finding trip to Israel about 2 years ago, the most striking thing about Israeli society is how liberal it is. There is a lot more dissent and debate about Israels actions inside the country than outside, and criticism isn’t accompanied by howls of anti-semetism like it is everywhere else.
Like all of us, Isreali’s are divided about the right course of action, do nothing and their country will be ruined by terrorism, or overrun; yet if you act tough you run the risk of escalating things.
Having done the ‘right’ thing and left Gaza once (to no good effect, the Palestinians have simply lived up to the worst expectations of the hawks in the Isreali Defence Force) I can’t see how the Isreali’s have any choice but to go back in and occupy the place again.
I doubt it will work but in the short term I really don’t see what else they can do.
40- I don’t disagree with your factual assertions Sean. And the Germans are guilty, as charged, of the crime of having started the practice of mass indiscriminate carpet bombing of civilians, as occurred in the bombing of London, Coventry, and other cities (Churchill may have cleverly baited Hitler into switching to this tactic at the most critical moment of the Battle of Britain, but that is another matter).
If you are arguing (as you see to be) that the Nazis “got what they deserved,” you have a point, arguable as it may be. However, if one wishes for the bombing campaign of Harris to be viewed as having transcended the simple concept of vengeance through indisicriminate mass slaughter of civilians, one is likely to be disappointed.
52. You seem to have deliberately misquoted my post. I said I supported an Israel based on more or less pre-1967 borders.
53. Israel seems to want to permanently expand its territory well beyond the pre-1967 borders.
Extremists in Israel do want more than pre-1967 borders - with liberal/lefties supporting Hamas that is exactly what they will get!!! Wake up and smell the coffee.
Martin Coxall @ 55.I applaud the thrust of your posts but I think at this stage I don’t need to be defended.I am my own defender !
56 Do you like going round cheering people up, Seth?
(And doesn’t the line go on “….made glorious summer by our PM Brown” ?)
May I ask why Peter the Punter and “Mighty Fella” feature in the foreground of the cartoon ?
56 “Now is the Winter of our Discontent…”
Made glorious summer by this sun of Gord….?
It’s always the same old soup with you, isn’t it seanT? The Nazis, the holocaust, stir in some IRA atrocities, add a sprinkling of paedophilia and there we are, another half-arsed argument relevant to nothing in particular.
I know we all need to make ‘allowances’ for you but would it be possible, just this once, to emerge from your self-induced fug and simply explain why it’s wrong for Israel to defend their innocent civilians from a sustained and lethal terrorist attack?
re 243 with these attitudes I wonder how long it will be before the dictionary will need rewriting, viz
“Anti-semite. n. A person who decries Israel’s killing of Palestinian civillians.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it just one more time, the only way forward for Israel is to retreat. “Overwhelming force” used against an imprisoned population is just terrible terrible PR.
It might solve the short term Hamas missile problem but it stores up endless horrors for the future. There are a billion Muslims. One day they will have their revenge, and America won’t be able to stop it.
So Israel needs to act before that happens.
Give up the Golan
Retreat to the EXACT 67 borders
Demolish all West Bank settlements
Swap huge amounts of money for the Palestinian right of return
Re-erect the wall on the Green Line, or on Israeli land, if its needed
Accept joint sovereignty of Jerusalem
Stop blockading Gaza
Such a generous action will embolden Arab moderates, pull the rug from under Islamists and al-Qaeda, and once more give Israel the crucial moral high ground. If, after all that, she is THEN attacked, the world will support her - I would certainly support her, with fervency.
What she is doing now is self harming; it’s like watching someone with cancer have another cigarette.
And now I’m off out for the shops. Shalom.
Chris A.I have you on the list ‘not too bright,but a classic antisemite’.
Are some of your best friends Jewish ? I doubt it….but claim away !
67 I stand corrected, Mark. I should have known better. My line doesn’t scan correctly.
58. To all intents and purposes you’ve just called me an anti-Semite. And for what? For wanting two states - Israel and Palestine - to live side by side under the pre-1967 borders?
Unfortunately, it seems that until this conflict is resolved, anyone who dares question the actions of the Israeli government is guaranteed to have the lazy anti-Semite card played on them, but it’s as absurd and offensive as the claim that anyone who criticises Robert Mugabe is a racist.
72
re 63 in that case I have quoted you exactly apart from the hyphen, for which I apologise. Israel’s borders recognised in international law are those that were there before 1967. There’s no more or less about it.
66 Ruined, Jack, by betting on themselves to win the Best Tipster poll.
“The defeat of Hamas is a humanitarian cause” - Coffe House bloig on PH I forgot how to do the links - should be read carefully by all lefties!
70. How about we stand against the wall(or The Wall) and pull down our trousers ?
That would give Israel the moral highground.
63. “Extremists in Israel do want more than pre-1967 borders - with liberal/lefties supporting Hamas that is exactly what they will get!!! Wake up and smell the coffee.”
Extremists like the Israeli government, you mean?
A lot of mad stuff being posted, I think I will retire too. The argument such as it is will get nowhere. There is fault on both sides. end of.
68. Last night, Gabble, you asked for Palestinians to be “annihilated”.
I think that’s all we need to know about you. In these circumstances, further comment or debate is superfluous.
75. Thank you for the apology. I think we are now in agreement on Israel. The more or less was a reference to the fact that there are unrersolved issues re Jerusalem, etc.
re 71 I wondered how long it would take for me to be called an antisemite, that’s always the answer URW isn’t it?
I don’t know how many of my friends are Jewish, it’s entirely irrelevant to me and I couldn’t care what religion they are, or none. My boss is Jewish though and he’s equally appalled by the situation in Palestine. he’s a Jewish antisemite I suppose.
More than 1,600 people will lose their jobs every day during 2009
The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development forecasts that 600,000 workers face redundancy during 2009.
The first months of the New Year will see the heaviest losses, it says.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/3999620/Workers-face-a-year-of-redundancies-and-pay-cuts-managers-say.html
65 & 67. Apologies for the doom! Just felt like a bit of Dickensian gloom as I sit here in the candlelight with the draught blowing across my double-socked feet!
The only way Gord could shed sunlight on the world would be to resign. Am I the only one to notice that ever since he took over in 2007 the weather has been interminable? Though it may just be my perception of living under the Brown Terror - and 18 more months to go
79. “Extremists like the Israeli government, you mean”
Oh dear there you go again stoking the fires. See 80.
re 71 And I have you on the list of thoroughly nasty posters. After all a few weeks ago you were wanting to have much posting banned because it had no betting implications and you couldn’t be bothered to wade through it.
68. Gabble, if nothing else, I can at least congratulate you on this sudden display of independent thinking. You’re taking a completely separate line from your beloved Labour government who seem, refreshingly, to have quite a few concerns about what Israel are doing.
81-For internet antisemites like you, the bottom line is to discredit any Jew or anyone speaking out for the Jewish people.There is nothing more to know about your ilk.
I see Ipsos MORI have denied that yesterday’s NOTW report on Conservative activists’ attitude to female candidates was based on their research.
Can we keep the discussion civil, please.
89, come now. I find it hard to believe that a reputable comic like the Mirror could possibly make unfounded attacks on the Conservative Party.
84 Yeah we know things are bad, Seth, but you’re a poet, aren’t you? Couldn’t you put a bit more bounce in the prophecies of doom? How about…
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may.
The recession will set in any day.
Or, maybe….
April is the cruelest month,
But worse will be May, then June, then July etc
91, whoops, the NotW, not the Mirror.
85. “Oh dear there you go again stoking the fires.”
What?! Scampi, if you’ve missed my point I’ll explain it again slowly. You said extremists in Israel wanted to expand the state beyond its pre-1967 borders. But the Israeli government wants to expand the state beyond the pre-1967 borders (at the very least East Jerusalem and some West Bank settlements). I was therefore enquiring, on a perfectly logical basis, whether you regard the Israeli government as part of the ‘extremist’ category you were referring to. Now do you understand?
“81-For internet antisemites like you, the bottom line is to discredit any Jew or anyone speaking out for the Jewish people.There is nothing more to know about your ilk.
by URW December 29th, 2008 at 4:43 pm”
I think you are probably getting overwrought. This post is so ludicrous it is pathological. I will refrain from arguing with you any more today.
83.If he exists, your boss is truly a fool.I reserve my most pungent criticisms for ‘Jews in denial’.
DNA is DNA and when push comes to shove we all end up in the same bin-liner.
76 PtP. I thought as much.
However you may gain much solace and take great consolation that Mrs Jack W voted for you and thus reduced my crushing majority to single figures …. namely one !! …. and but for the filial allegiance of Kinkell it would be an aged Scottish aristocrat who would be meandering the mean streets of Belgravia and the Highlands not knowing where the next Winter cruise might be secured.
Harsh times old friend, harsh times !!
84 “Am I the only one to notice that ever since he took over in 2007 the weather has been interminable?”
In London, we had 14 days of unbroken susnshine after the election of Boris! Otherwise, you are spot on. Scottish leader, Scottish weather….
90 Nah, let em kill each other, Morus. Site needs purging from time to time.
95.In that case the pushy Jew gets the last word.
On the previous thread you described Israel as ‘kiddyfiddlers’…..and you want the moral highground !
40
But surely Sean from the point of view of the Israelis, the difference between the Germans wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth in WW2 and Hamas wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth in 2008 is rather slight.
If this were about the Israelis attacking the Palestinians wholesale then you would have a point since the Palestinians as a people have come to a point where many of them accept the exitence of Israel. In fact as far as the West Bank goes my support is whole heartedly with the Palestinians against the Israelis who are acting illegally and stupidly.
But Hamas is an entirely different matter. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel through violent means. I fail to see the difference between that and the similar aim of Britain’s enemies in WW2. Actually there is a difference. The Germans just wanted to conquer and subjugate us, not wipe us out wholesale. As such they were perhaps the lesser villains in this comparison.
Harris pursued a policy of directly targeting civilians. It is a policy which under the specific circumstances of the time I am willing to accept even though philosophically I find it inimical. Since the Israelis are not directly targeting civilians I find it hard to saay that their actions are worse than those of Harris.
75. No, read UNSCR 242. “Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict”. Not “the” territories. The then British ambassador to the UN who was intimately involved in 242 is on recors as stating that the omission of the definite article was entirely deliberate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
97 I pity you, JackW. You could only beat me by one? You’re finished, man.
Pass on my regards to Lady W. Tell her I’ll meet her tonite in the usual place. I’ll bring my own baby oil.
99 PtP. Not before they vote Jacobite !!
The problem that Israel faces in Gaza is, I think, unprecedented. Hamas is democratically elected and has a mandate which it is following. However, that mandate is noxious, though enjoys at least the acquiescence of its people. Hamas has the means under its control to pursue that mandate and is doing so.
Israel has the right to self-defence.. Like SeanT, I regard the current attack as ill-advised (though I disagree with his prescribed way forward), but like Gabble, Tim and URW I regard Israel’s right to take defensive action as total. Israel is suffering an existential threat. In such circumstances, very wide latitude must be given.
In the long term, the solution will need to be set in train from the Palestinian side, and probably enforced by the likes of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The broad outlines of the solution are clear, but it cannot be put in effect until all of the Palestinians end their attempts to destroy the Israeli state. Moderate Muslim governments would be well-advised to ensure that this happens.
104 LOL!
Too soft for the Jacobite cause, no, Jack? Surely you need hard men…like those in the last reel of Carry On Up The Khyber?
Sorry for my inappropriate intervention into the Jackwobbean Wars,PtP.
You should agree to share the Gold and I would be happy to see either of you as forumite of the year if David Herdson isn’t.
Now and again you have to show your horns !
103 PtP. I regret to advise you that Mrs Jack W has a previous engagement with a younger model …. who although he used to go like the clappers has now been retired to stud - A fine mighty fella he is too !!
94. You clearly are not gonna get the nuances of Realpolitik in Israel as you are determined to plough a pro-Hamas line so I won’t pursue it any further. Suffice to say the more you & your ilk push this line the less chance there is of any kind of two-state solution which is surely what we all want.
105. “Israel is suffering an existential threat.”
If Israel faces an existential threat it certainly doesn’t take the form of rubbish home-made rockets fired from Gaza. You should save that excuse for a pre-emptive Israeli attack on Iran, because there’s absolutely no way it can plausibly be used to justify the carnage in Gaza.
105 - Which is why most “moderate” governments in the ME are happy to see large numbers of armed Hamas personnel be killed.They know that Gaza factions are the biggest barrier to getting talks started when the new US administration comes in.
Whether it is smart politics by the Israeli govt remains to be seen, but I do notice that those who are first to mourn civilian casualties are generally those who were the quickest to excuse the coup by Hamas in Gaza and the random killings of Fatah supporters.
109. I am “pro-Hamas”? Provide evidence or withdraw, please. Utterly absurd.
101. As I understand it, Hamas want a non Zionist state in the land now known as Israel: that’s not quite the same as wanting to “wipe Israel off the face of the earth”, though I can see why Jews are historically rather immune to the nuances.
The Hamas position has some logic. Israel is one of the few openly “racist” states left on the earth (Muslim Malaysia is, ironically, another). It allows the right of return to Jews, but no one else. Its immigration policy is discriminatory against non Jews. It has an explicit goal of maintaining a demographic Jewish majority. It says the country is full - but then allows in 1m Russian Jews.
What Hamas wants to do is get ride of these laws so Arabs and Jews and others can live side by side in a non discriminatory secular state like any other.
However, as I say, from an Israeli perspective I can see why Jerusalem sees this as a short cut to oblivion for Jews. If Hamas got their way Jews would soon be outnumbered by Arabs and Muslims in their homeland. I wouldn’t want to be outnumbered by Muslims in Britain, and I don’t have a history of the Cornish being gassed to motivate me.
So I can hardly deny the right of Israelis to feel the same. As I say I want Israel to survive as a Jewish homeland.
To get (belatedly) to your particular point, the main difference is that German was a genuine existential threat to Britain (and to western democracy). The pathetic rockets of Hamas are not a threat to the existence of Israel.
Israel’s myopic actions are, paradoxically, the greatest threat to her longterm future.
Actually whilst I agree with the current Israeli action I also agree with all of Sean’s points on the way forward.
But what Sean must realise is that if Israel were to follow this course then they would also be forced to undertake many more actions similar to those he is criticising now. There are those in the Arab world who will never accept the existence of Israel in any form and within any borders. Just like any other country Israel has the right to use any and all means at its disposal to protect itself and its citizens.
So yes, Isrel should withdraw from all the territory it has seized since 1967. But it should then be supported absolutely if it finds itself under attack and chooses to retaliate in the way it has done so this week.
108 As long as somebody is serving Her Ladyship, Jack, all is well. Her needs are inexhaustible, as you would well know.
106 PtP. I’m preparing the thin red line againt the rampant forces of Herdson, SallyC and seanT ….
“Kilts firmly grasped between the thumb and forefinger ….
Wait for it …. wait for it ….
LIFT ….”
http://bshistorian.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/kilts.jpg
107 No problem, URW.
Jack’s needs are greater than mine. And just imagine the delight on Matron’s face when he returns to the Home and shows her his bauble.
21. You are a sad paranoid person. You need to get over yourself and get a life, nobody cares a jot what you are , cut the delusions.
116 Thank you, Jack. I looked for, but could not find, that clip- surely the funniest scene in the entire history of cinema.
112. When you criticise the Israeli attack on Hamas you are making their propaganda for them. Oh and stop being so unnecessarily pompous and rude just because people disagree with you.
113 - Seant - The Hamas position is to undertake military action until an Islamic state is established over the wole of Palestine.
The position of Jews in the state varies depending on which Hamas leader or document you perefer to listen to.
It varies betweeen death,expulsion and confiscation of land followed by the second class status within a state governed by Islamic law where democracy is abolished.
If thats what you meant by “non zionist state” then I’m sure you are correct.
117 PtP. Yours might be a mere bauble dear sir …. Mine are the crown jewels !!
109- Good luck with that two-state solution. As long as the Palestinians have Jesse Jackson-like leadership which views victimhood as essential to maintaining power, no solution will materialize. This is not to assign blame uniquely to the Palestinians but merely to highlight what seems to be an insuperable obstacle to any such solution, even if all other obstacles could be overcome.
113
Sean, you seem to be ignoring the fact that 20% of the population of Israel (not including the West Bank and Gaza) are Arabs. And 80% of those are muslims. So your point is factually incorrect.
And anyone who thinks that Hamas would allow the jews to stay in Palestine if they got their way and took over is frankly not thinking straight. It is they themselves who have said repeatedly that they wanted to ‘wipe out Israel’ and ‘drive the Jews into the sea’. Now they are entitled to their opinions but then the Israelis are entitled to take them at their word and kill them.
122 Touche, Jack!
I retire, bloodied but unbowed.
124 - Here is the Hamas Covenant.
You are correct, and Sean may like to read it.
http://ftp.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
123. Agree - but it is the only show in town apart from more war and deaths.
125 PtP. The hounour is mine fine fellow !!
I too shall retire before the combined cyber space wackos of Israel and Palestine blast us out of the blogosphere !!
Laters.
120. So your explanation is that by wanting Israel to desist from murdering innocent Palestinian civilians - ie. nothing whatever to do with Hamas - I am being pro-Hamas. Hmm, that’s logical. Would criticism of the 7/7 attacks on London make me “pro-Labour” or “pro-Blair”?
Before you accuse me of “pomposity” could I draw your attention to these comments you directed towards me just because I disagreed with you - “Again - a failure to listen and understand the nuances of the conflict”…”Oh dear there you go again stoking the fires”…”with liberal/lefties supporting Hamas that is exactly what they will get!!! Wake up and smell the coffee”…”you clearly are not gonna get the nuances of Realpolitik in Israel as you are determined to plough a pro-Hamas line so I won’t pursue it any further”…”suffice to say the more you & your ilk push this line”
128 Yes, Jack. I sense Armageddon…as in ‘arma geddon outa here’ before it gets any nastier.
Laters indeed.
129. lol. Yes!
129. Sorry I just can’t be bothered anymore you are so funny.
Isn’t this all a moot point now, as Israel is currently, and quite rightly, extinguishing Hamas from existence?
Unless gutless shrimps like Miliband talk Israel into holding off until Obama can unconditionally support Israel, there won’t be a Hamas in a few more days.
31.
“the land of Abraham was given for eternity to the people of Abraham.”
was that gift by Pinky or by Perky?
Incidentally, Christians, Jews and Moslems are ALL ‘the people of Ibrahim’.
Gaza is just one big Israeli concentration camp, modeled on the British efforts in South Africa, copied so assiduously by Herr Hitler. Genocide is a bit like paedophilia - there’s a lot of learned behaviour involved, sadly.
Gabble wants ‘Muslim’ or ‘Arab’ nations to absorb the Palestinian diaspora and the millions of camp dwellers. Just as the European countries should have absorbed the EUROPEAN Jews after WWII instead of allowing them to go and invade a land which very few of them had any more connection with than you or I have?
There is no easy solution to this problem, a big part of which is determined by whether it makes sense for more people to suffer and die short term in order to gain (or hold) land and security for the future. More sense to those involved, not to you or me. There is also the little question of which point in history you declare to be the ’start date’ for all the problems.
I see it as a festering sore, carrying on for centuries to come unless there is Armageddon (either way) before that. Shame the US, European and Russian governments cannot lean on those involved to be more fair and reasonable. But they don’t want to and our people are ignorant of the issues and don’t care much.
@134:
Wahey: The first JEWS = NAZIS of the thread? Well done, Wage Slave.
SeanT: look what people you are aligning yourself with. Don’t you feel a mild twinge of shame? Good Christ, I would do.
119. Are you sure that it isnt on a compilation on Youtube?
A glorious movie, the best Carry On.
For Russia watchers and I know there are a few, Russia is quietly devaluing the rouble again. Even with a bit of an uptick in oil prices next year that country is on the skids.
133.
“Israel is currently, and quite rightly, extinguishing Hamas from existence?”
Like we’ve been wiping the Taliban out of Afghanistan for the last few years, right?
The Israelis have no more likelihood of wiping Hamas out of the palestinian population than PB.com has of forcing Gabble to join Tory Friends of Palestine.
137. You are probably right - on both counts! but it is a shame because Hamas are poison.
@137:
Hamas has made their elimination rather easier by their curious decision to hide in one small garbage dump on the arse end of egypt, and then throw jury-rigged fireworks at people.
133. There will be a Hamas but they’ll be well messed up by the time this is over.
@140:
That’s good enough. Leave them humiliated, broken, wounded, bleeding, starving and stumpy. We can let Fatah deal the killing blow. There’ll be an amusing irony to letting the Palestinians deliver the coup de grace.
84. My Dad works for the Social Security Agency over here in NI. Tomorrow he retires after over 40 years service and today he had the most exotic new claimant he has ever seen in that time. A former Senior IT manager for the regional arm of HBOS, previously on £70k/year and who has just been made redundant!
I also got told today from a colleague that a very large electrical retailer is close to entering administration. I don’t want to say who but it is on good authority!
135.
No Mr Coxall, the first Coxall=BNP statement.
All Jews are not Israelis. All Israelis are not Zionists. And my posting was balanced between the needs of Israelis and Palestinians. The Concentration Camps ideas pioneered by the British and Lenin were just something Hitler picked up along the way ie not fundamental to National Socialism per se as opposed to any other type of extremist absolutist regime, of which there have been many.
And learn the difference between Concentration Camps and Death Camps before you post your pointless negative bile.
@142:
Dixons/Currys.Digital.
Everyone’s heard that rumour. Anyway, good. They’re scum.
@143:
I know the difference. I don’t especially care. Nobody uses the phrase “concentration camps” unless they’re trying to evoke a very specific, and deeply foul metaphor.
Trying to deny it because of a pedantic point about what “concentration camp” used to mean before the Germans were able to improve the concept using ruthless Teutonic efficiency gains is irrelevant.
You say Gaza = a concentration camp because you want to subtly frame the debate that Jews = Nazis.
142. Is that retailer one without NI branches?
Anyway, I voted for Sally C. A newcomer - the toughest category to win from - but she is wise, slow to anger (although quite able to cuff around the ear when needed); happy to share what she knows in her area of expertise; and adds a welcome female perspective to this site. I’m sure there are many lurkers (of either sex) who could become popular and informed contributors too, given a bit of encouragement.
I’m sure the other gents in the running would be happy if she were to win…eh, guys?
Anyway, I voted for Sally C. A newcomer - the toughest category to win from - but she is wise, slow to anger (although quite able to cuff around the ear when needed); happy to share what she knows in her area of expertise; and adds a welcome female perspective to this site. I’m sure there are many lurkers (of either sex) who could become popular and informed contributors too, given a bit of encouragement.
I’m sure the other gents in the running would be happy if she were to win…eh, guys?
Jack W’s “Thin Kilted Line”
7 mins 30 sec in …. or view all !!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxX7YW_97QU
(Sorry about the double post. It wasn’t me!)
136 A very good one, no doubt, Yokel, but Carry On Screaming also has claims.
What happens to Iceland if Russia goes broke? There has to be a good chance of that happening if it carries on with its present idiotic ways.
146. No, Martin’s let the cat out the bag!
Sorry to see anyone losing their jobs even if the company has been run by a bunch of twats but you should be able to find some bargains!
133, if you think that Hamas can be wiped out by anything short of genocide, you’ve sadly failed to learn the lessons of history. The only thing that can be achieved is to replace Hamas with another equally or possibly even more extreme group. The Israelis know this even if you don’t, and their real aim it to negotiate another truce on more favourable terms (and win a general election of course).
SeanT is absolutely right (words I never thought I’d write) the existential threat to Israel comes from losing the goodwill of the international community, not from a handful of extremists with rocket launchers.
145.
No, there is only one person here who wants to bring the ludicrous idea that Jews=Nazis into this. That person is the person who brought it up: Martin Coxall. the man who “doesn’t especially care”. I would suggest the ‘especially’ is redundant.
Good BNP propaganda Mr C!
Yep, DSG. Their main distribution warehouse is in my town and it has been clear for a while that they are in deep trouble. No idea how true it is that they will go under but it wouldn’t surprise me.
147/148 You voted for SallyC twice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Off for munchies …..
134- As you suggest, it is quite unfortunate that the existence of the modern state of Israel can be attributed to the combination of Jewish interpretation of scripture and the complete regional dominance at the time by America and Britain. Now that British and American dominance in the region is waning, only the question regarding the one true religion need be resolved in order to bring about a peaceful resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute.
I’ve put up a Diary on Daily Kos about Israel-Palestine
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/29/12525/656/213/678128
Essentially, I’m arguing that the very soonest Obama will spend political capital sorting out a permanent settlement for Israel-Palestine will be 2015.
Only Lame Duck Presidents can solve the ME conflict.
Thoughts and feedback welcome.
156 “You voted for SallyC twice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
If that’s what it takes….
158- Perhaps Iran will have sorted it out by then and thus will have spared Obama the trouble.
159.
but does SallyC consent to this disgraceful double-input?
“Incidentally, Christians, Jews and Moslems are ALL ‘the people of Ibrahim’.”
Indeed. That’s why I made my comment tongue in cheeks…
147/148 - one vote from Marquee Mark and the other from the Funquee Bunch?
159, one of those was on my behalf. As I’m lazy
124. I’m not sure I am wrong about Hamas; but I’m not sure you are either.
Put it differently: the positions of Hamas are very confused - they go from the bloodcurdling anti-Semitic Palestine-is-eternally-Islamic (which, let’s face it, simply mirror the same sentiments in right wing Zionists - i.e. Israel is God-given to the Jews) - to the more nuanced later statements. e.g.:
“On 13 February 2006, in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta,[40] Hamas leader Mashal declared that Hamas would stop armed struggle against Israel if it recognized the 1967 borders, withdrew itself from all Palestinian occupied territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the “right of return”.”
I take this as a tacit acceptance of a multiracial multicultural state within the borders of Palestine & Israel combined.
However my main point overrides this anyway: I can see why Israelis would utterly mistrust any organisation with the pedigree of Hamas.
But I’m not suggesting Israel should come to an understanding with Hamas, I’m merely suggesting Israel stop doing stupidly brutal things which are likely to end in its own destruction, long term.
My facts on Israel having a “racist” immigration policy are not wrong. It is explicitly meant to be a Jewish state with a Jewish majority and it discriminates against non Jews who want to settle.
Martin Coxall, I fear we are going to have our first proper argument. But before we do, can I ask - are you Jewish?
162.
“my comment tongue in cheeks…”
Aha! The Stavros approach to peace-keeping!
Morus is quoting arch-Conservative E. Burke on DKos :
“Gambling is a principle inherent in nature”
lol
166 Jerusalem - make him a city for every peeps.
Up the Arse!
167 Or, Philippe mon vieux, my own favourite:
“All of life’s a gamble and mostly the odds are 5/4 against.” Damon Runyon.
@165:
Oh, Sean. I can’t argue with you, there’d be a disturbance in the force.
As it happens, I’m not Jewish, but I have many close friends who are. Maybe I have been seduced by their evil Jew Rays.
I have never believed that Israel is above criticism, but surely, with your finely-tuned sense of Leftie-hatred, you see how much genuine antisemitism underlies much new-leftiethink?
I want to make quite clear that I’m not accusing you of antisemitism however, just of having missed it in others.
151. I read a wonderful article recently about the Icelandics in the face of the whole financial debacle and if there is one group of people who can face it, its them. Frankly I’m worried about our own economy, its like a slow motion car crash.
152. In that case then I’ve heard a story about a different one. I currently work for a company that I know has big cashflow issues though in the short term it should be sorted giving it breathing space to get itself in a stronger position.
You tend to find that businesses who had troubles anyway are the ones getting nailed.
A question for those old enough to remember:
In the early 1970s, when the violence in Northern Ireland was at its most intensive, were there substantial groups of public opinion among the swivel-eyed reactionary plebs, or the tabloid media, or the reactionary chattering classes, who couldn’t distinguish between the IRA and the Republic of Ireland, and who wanted the UK to “invade the Republic of Ireland” or “bomb Dublin” or kidnap terrorist suspects in cross-border raids, and so on?
168.
You wanting to give both sides a Chorizo kebab? Not halal, not kosher. Rabbis and Mullahs on same sides as Ian Paisleys. But how you get thems ideas past Model raters?
171. Yep, Woolworths and MFI were already on death row before the economy fell off a cliff. The credit crunch just hastened the final collapse. If this keeps up then at some point a real blue chip retailer is either going to hit the wall or close a huge part of it’s network and that is when it will really hit home to people how much trouble we’re in.
145-You mean those concentration camps full of NGOs and other trouble makers, with (normally) freeish access to TV crews, and those starving (sorry well fed) kids throwing stones (and why exactly aren’t they a legitimate target?). How like the General Gouvernement ca 1943. But Israel delights on monopolising genocide (only one Holocaust, who remembers the Armenians, let alone the pikeys) so one should surmise it’s poetic justice to throw this back at them.
On the other hand, I have yet to hear the phrase referring to a Final Solution to the Muslim/Palestinian Problem. Except in the pub. Oh well.
As for the notion of “civilians”, it is much overwrought. Hamas and friends (plausibly) argue that since in Israel pretty much everyone is in the IDF or a reservist they are “not civilians”. Similarly is a Palestinian gunman sans gun a civilian? How about their support organisation? Red Crescent is different from (civilian) logistical support. How about women (suicide bomb factories) and children (future suicide bombers)?
170.
“genuine antisemitism underlies much new-leftiethink?”
Like Gabble, for example? obviously more seventeenth columnist than fifth.
UR Melanie Phillips (very old new leftie) and I claim my UKP5.
Night all.
“When Christians kill Muslims, it’s the Crusades. When Jews kill Muslims it’s murder, and when Muslims kill Muslims, it’s like talking about the weather. Nobody really cares about it.”
That quotation comes from Dan Gillerman,
Gillerman’s observation is once again highly appropriate as Egypt fires on Gaza residents fleeing the territory and the Taliban kills 14 children, among countless other examples that appear in the news from one week to the next.
170 - It’s true Martin. I used to describe myself as anti-Zionist because I though states should be blind to the ethnicity of their populations, and used to get very frustrated that supporters of Israel would call anti-Zionism and anti-semitism the same thing, because I was categorically not anti-semitic (my best friend at the time was in the IDF doing national service).
I still think there is a difference, but was not as aware at the time of how much anti-Zionism was a cover for anti-semitism. For unrelated reasons, I am no longer opposed to the idea of ‘an overtly Jewish state’ (I’m no longer a child of the Enlightenment), but whilst I accept that many anti-Zionists are not remotely anti-semitic, I think it’s important that those of us who are supportive friends of Israel are awake to the context in which we criticize Israel.
It would be silly to accuse SeanT is a raging anti-semitic lefty - his point here is that Israel faces a greater threat in losing the support of the fickle international community than it does from the homemade rockets from Gaza. I have sympathy with URW’s suspicion of people who criticize Israel, but think I agree with SeanT on this. This looks bad, and gives succour to those who would falsely cast Israel as the sole agressor.
Uh-oh…The tedious Jew haters have taken over the threads.
Political Betting will be worth returning to when they have gone back to whatever else occupies them, torturing small animals for example.
172. Almost certainly yes.
I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this before but here is an alternative history of 1970’s Britain in which some of the actions you mentioned happened. It’s very long though!
http://www.btinternet.com/~chief.gnome/
155. You mean DSGI…. Good riddance. If all the redundant staff became drug dealing pimps, they would be serving a more socially useful purpose then putting money into DSGI pockets.
My prediction is however, that DSGI will not go bust, their business needs to be reformed though, we will probably see their dominance of retail parks reduced as they merge their currys and PCWorld stores into one brand.
We are going to hear very bad news from DSGI soon, and an awful lot of customer dis-satisfaction when they realise that the extended warranties they purchased are pretty much worthless now that DSGI has reduced their techguys bank of engineers from 650 to about 130 nationwide.
172. There were cross-border raids/incursions. On one occasion an PIRA sniper was found with his throat cut on the Irish side of the border. Another PIRA man committed suicide in a phone box - with a rifle….
Interestigly, the PIRA used to claim that Dublin was colluding with the British in this…
177. Moral relativism at work - if people from a “privelaged” ethnic group kill those from a “victim” group, this is Bad. If people from a “victim” group kill those in a “privelaged” group - WeMustTryToUnderstand. When memebers of a “victim” group kill each other (or people from other “victim” groups that the average moral relativist is unable to distinguish from them) then it is weather news. Basically the racist belief that “they are all like that”.
PtP:
One phrase that I like very much was quoted by the excellent British writah/pokah-playah A. Alvarez:
[Pokah] exemplifies the worst aspects of capitalism that have made [America] so great.
– Walter Matthau
180-Starring Capt IDS???!!!
Read it many aeons ago, wasn’t it written by one of our regular posters? I think it goes to show that so long as you are prepared to shoot your own people (unlike Enoch in the plot) viz Stalin, Tiananmen Sq, Burma 2006, etc you are safe. Saddam wouldn’t have been toppled without an invasion—
165. Incidentally, what is the moral difference between Hamas wanting an Islamic Palestine with Islamic government and second class status for Jews, and OFFICIAL Israeli government policy, which is a Jewish Israel with a perpetual Jewish majority and second class status for Arabs?
170. Actually, for what it’s worth, I think I am very mildly anti-Semitic.
If I can hastily explain. I reckon anti-Semitism is so widespread it is possible genetic. Or at least very very deeply rooted. Even the Japanese have a strain of anti-Semitism - and they have hardly ever encountered Jews, and few Jews live there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Japan
The evolutionary explanation for anti-Semitism is obvious.
They are a hardworking highly intelligent intellectually aggressive minority group, with an overt sense of superiority, and a belief in its chosen-ness. This group prefers not to outmarry, but seeks protection within societies whose populations it nonetheless regards with Biblical disdain as “unclean”.
Because of the intelligence and diligence and pushiness of this group, they tend to over-achieve and out-compete host races, leading to perilous situations where they dominate the cultural and commercial life of the host nation, which in turn breeds a reprehensible but understandable anti-Semitism.
I doubt if many Non-Jews are entirely devoid of this evolved or at least deeply rooted trait. Because it is in some ways perfectly logical.
I know that I harbour a little of it in myself. e.g. I am slightly (and I think rightly) suspicious of Israeli influence on American foreign policy. I am not sure the Jewish lobby is entirely a force for good - cf the Jews in the neo-Con movement who urged the Iraq war. Disastrous.
However, sometimes I find my justifiable scrutiny of Jewish influence has a certain “edge”, even a hint of paranoia: this is when I think I shade into being anti-Semitic. But I am very watchful of myself, and at least I am aware of the problem.
Moreover, at the same time as being a touch anti-Semitic, I am also HUGELY philo-Semitic. I know its a horrible cliche, but half my best friends ARE Jewish. My true first love was Jewish. I had a baby with a Jewish girl (sadly we lost it). I like to visit Israel as much as I can - I even like Israelis (and that’s saying somethimg, as even they admit they can be the rudest people on earth).
I am fascinated by Jewishness to the point of obsession. All my books contain a Jewish character or two. Both Tom Knox thrillers centre around aspects of Jewish history and the unique and glittering heritage of Jewish culture.
I genuinely want Israel to survive; I can’t imagine how impoverished the world would be without the immortal contributions of Jews, from Freud to Wittgenstin to Spinoza to Dave Lee Roth singing “Just a Gigolo”.
So there ya go. I’m a bit of a Nazi and a bit of a Zionist. Go figure, as they say in Brooklyn.
181. Good point about retail parks. I am a town planner and I deal with planning applications for a lot of major retail developments. There has been a lot of resentment from traditional high street retailers about out of town retail developments and the growth of the supermarkets out of their traditional food business into areas previously dominated by specialist chains such as Boots and the DSG brands. Something we were talking about just before Christmas was if a lot of the retail chains get wiped out due to the credit crunch while Tesco’s, Sainsburys and co sail through more or less unscathed, then could they find themselves on the end of a backlash from the public in the way the banks did?
@178:
That’s always been my biggest gripe about Israel: it’s astonishingly bad at the PR game. Many Israelis I know claim not to care, unhelpfully deluding themselves that they can and must act alone. Apparently painfully unaware of the fact that they don’t and can’t.
I can understand why Israel is distrustful of outside influences, especially Europe, but Israel cannot afford to alienate the US.
Another part of the problem is that Israel learned entirely the wrong lessons from the post-war military consensus, as evidenced by such things as Israel’s Lebanon expedition being so embarrassingly badly executed, and failing to contain Iran far, far sooner.
182-Indeed, how many Africans of one tribe are being butchered tonight by members of another tribe in the DR Congo? No TV cameras, even Gordon realised that no one cares for his Africa posturing, the “general” public give even less of a to$$ than over Gaza; so up there with the weather although the fluffy puppy might pip it to the news.
Now get me a fat British bird with hairy armpits who has been threatened with rape in the area while “travelling” and smoking dope in her gap year and even the Daly Mail will take an interest in the DRC. Briefly.
186 “if a lot of the retail chains get wiped out due to the credit crunch while Tesco’s, Sainsburys and co sail through more or less unscathed, then could they find themselves on the end of a backlash from the public in the way the banks did?”
Only if people are prepared to eat roots and berries. They feed us.
“165. Incidentally, what is the moral difference between Hamas wanting an Islamic Palestine with Islamic government and second class status for Jews, and OFFICIAL Israeli government policy, which is a Jewish Israel with a perpetual Jewish majority and second class status for Arabs?”
I expect that the position of Arab Israelis is currently rather better than the position of Jews under the rule of Hamas would be (assuming that any of them were left alive).
185-And the left wing Hollywood Jew types don’t help. When was the last ime you saw a “bad” Jew in a film? And I don;t mean Judd Suss the Goebbels Ministry film of 1943.
But you are right, I seem to have a similar admiration/distrust of the Jews/Israel.
190. Undoubtedly and totally true: but I was talking in an abstract sense. The theoretical positions seem morally and philosophically similar to me.
185. Hands up anyone who’s surprised SeanT holds two apparently contradictory views? anyone?
190 - I suspect Seans personal turmoil over his support for the Iraq war has led him to downplay the extremism of Islamist groups.
For information, those who right constantly about Israels racist immigration policy may like to have a look at a list of those other countries with a “right of return” based on ethnic or religious lines and ask themselves why they did not know any of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return
190. The Arab polcy to Israel (the one that Hamas still follows) was to defeat Israel and expell all the Jewish inhabitants. Nasser wanted to book passenger ships for the post-67 planned expulsions, the rest of his cabinet wanted to use cargo ships - and didn’t think that many would be needed….
A number of memeber of the Israeli parliment are Arabs - how many elected Jewish officials in the Arab/Iranian world?
185 — What makes so interesting, seanT, is that you don’t fear channeling powerful forces, even when they are seemingly antagonistic. You’re intellectually quite honest, and don’t run away from paradoxes. In fact, it seems to me your brain is fueled by paradoxes; you can apparently incorporate into your thought process forces and ideas that lesser, more rigid minds would neglect for fear of losing their ideological identity.
You call yourself right-wing, etc., but the fact is you seems to be above partisan, ideological identity, even at the cost of rethinking about your thoughts.
It’s why I think you deserve to be poster of the year.
You 185 post is very moving.
That being said, I don’t mean to flatter you; I think in fact that you are a whore-loving metrosexual dandy with a heart as cold as the dark side of the moon.
189. If they survive without government assistance and without violent price rises, the attitude would probably be “thank God *someone* is competent at running a business”.
190-The position of Jews in Muslim countries is strange and varies. Of the Arab countries Morocco and Tunisia have a vibrant-ish Jewish population and I have heard little commentary on it. I imagine if they were severely repressed we’d know about it…
Similarly in non-Arab Turkey Jews seem to have a vibrant society. Even in non-Arab Iran there is a sizeable Jewish community (we like our Jews, we are not anti-semitic [a paradox since Arabs are semitic...], merely anti-Zionist…). It’s mainly in Arab countries where Jews seem to have disappeared. Of course, it has been policy of the Israeli government to try and congregate all Jewry in Israel so it can hardly complain of Judenrein countries in the Middle East, though admittedly this was mainly forced on the local Jewish population. Guess no right of return for Yemeni Jews. Wonder if they will get paid compensation?
195 “A number of memeber of the Israeli parliment are Arabs - how many elected Jewish officials in the Arab/Iranian world?”
One.
In Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Motamed
196 SeanT: “a whore-loving metrosexual dandy with a heart as cold as the dark side of the moon.”
That will be on the dust-cover of his next novel!
And in his defence, he is OUR whore-loving metrosexual dandy with a heart as cold as the dark side of the moon.
190. Would you rather be an arabic woman in Israel or Palestine?
I’d choose Israel. Would be much better in every way.
192 I don’t think one can separate the theory from the practice, though.
WRT your earlier point, Paul Johnson (who is very pro-Jewish) has made the point that anti-semitism is not entirely irrational, given that people of Jewish origin have played a disproportionate part in the development of almost all radical ideas, which are very unsettling to many people.
I have just emailed my vote for Jack W. Just shades it over seanT in my book for catching the ethos of this site so well with his ARSE.
But well done seanT, Ted and of course Sally, and for the others who got nominated.
195-by law there is at least one in the Iranian Majlis.
188. Indeed - for example, Mugabe has/is running a racist campaign against several black minority groups - but since the average right-on-er can’t tell the difference, it doesn’t register.
From talking to the right on types, one reason that they like to downplay Japan’s behaviour in the second world war was that they don’t realise that Fascists running Japan was building a very, very racist empire. Made the western colonialists look tame - and they weren’t (see Orwell etc.) But, again, they can’t see a difference between the Chinese and the Japanese!
183 Thank you, Philippe. I like it!
198. Quite a few Arab countries expelled their Jewish populations after 67. In several cases, Egyptian Jewish soldiers returned home to find themselves and their families being kicked out….
The surviving communities in the Arab world keep their heads well down - every now an again there is a pogrom style attack when the locals need to demonstrate how anti-Israel they are.
202-Not an anti-semitics slur to suggest they invented the horror which became communism. Engels and Marx anyone - albeit in the abstract.
In Lenin’s (specially) and Stalin’s Politburos there were plenty of Jews. Oh yes, and the Cheka and successors. On the other hand, Hitler ensured they paid the price for this crime. So guess, cean slate from 1948.
202. Yes. The one people who probably have the best reason to be anti-Semitic is the Russians, given that they suffered most from the ravages of Marxism, the great Jewish radical idea of the 20th century. Communism can almost be seen as the Jewish revenge, for all the Tsarist pogroms.
Strangely, however, Russia is still one place where Jews seem most comfortable (outside France, Britain and America).
Philip, ta for the author profile!
Now I’m off out for a walk in the FREEZING cold. Winter, bah humbug.
208. Stalin was a pretty hard-core anti-semite.
Did you know that a major reason that the USSR supported the Arabs and not Israel was anti-semitism. Pre-oil (just after Stalin died) the reformers in the USSr saw the Kibutz movement et. al. as far more socialist and sophisticated than the Arab Nationalist stuff - which was also contaminated (as they saw it) with er…. National Socialism. Apparently, Stalin’s cronies vetoed this, and so the USSR went with the Arab states.
209 Johnson argued that in medieval times, a strikingly high proportion of heretics were either converts from Judaism, or the immediate descendants of such converts. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of their arguments, what they were saying was deeply disturbing to the orthodox.
196 Philippe
That is a fine, complex and beautiful articulation. It deserves a thread in itself.
Sadly, I cannot respond. I have not the wit and in any case I have to cook supper now.
Merci et bonsoir.
210. Iirc Stalin was a bit schizophrenic about Jews. I think he did try and start a Jewish homeland somewhere. I think it started to work as well, but then he went back to pogroms.
210 The Soviet Union supported Israel in 1948, in the belief that its establishment would weaken British power in the Middle East (which it did). Stalin was quite capable of separating his personal prejudice (he was indeed deeply anti-semitic) from realpolitik.
196 - a late contender for post of the year, especially the conclusion
214. A big motivation for Stalin was idea of sending all the Jewsin Russia to Israel…
208- Stalin did have jewish members of the Poltiburo for years but his anti-semitism (always strong) only began to have direct consequences after the war. From 1945 to his death in 1953 the main target of purges were Jewish. The pretended “jewish Crimea” plot was used as a target to destroy Zhdanov supporters.
The own wife of Molotov was arrested and saved from death only by Stalin’s death.
For all those interested in Stalin’s bizarre mind and incredibly cruel reign, I cannot recommand enough to read the extremely good “Stalin - The court of the red tsar” by Simon Sebag Montefiore. This is one of the best-researched history books I’ve read.
185- As I read Sean’s post, I wondered for a moment why it is never possible to have a reasonable discussion on issues of racism. Then the reality check: very few people are capable of genuinely addressing such issues in the honest and transparent way that Sean can. Instead we must live in an emperor-has-no-clothes world where such discussions must be avoided. Too bad.
For those like SeanT who are coming down hard on Israel tonight because of the bombing of Gaza, I have a story to tell:
In the World War II there was a campaign fought by the 8th Army in the so called Western Desert in N. Africa. Attached to this army in 1942 was a small special force of Palestinians: they were all Jew’s.
Arabs living in Palestine at that time wanted nothing to do with an allied victory; they were waiting for Hitler to liberate them from the British. Indeed the Arabs refused to be called Palestinians, they were proud to be Arab’s and that was that.
In November 1947 the UN general assembly voted to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Division so proposed was calamitous from the Jews point of view, yet they accepted the partition proposal. The Arab’s rejected it and on the 16th May 1948 6 Arab armies attacked the New state. The New Israeli state won and offered a full peace treaty in 1949, The Arabs rejected it.
The main and only reason for repeated rejections of Israeli peace offers, was that the Arab states and the Arab peoples of Palestine, (who after the 6 Day War defeat started to call themselves Palestinians), don’t want Israel to exist in any form.
Therein is the dilemma that Israel faces.
After each military defeat the Arabs always said NO to peace with Israel. They kept and still keep their own citizens in refugee camp’s, and always call for Israel’s destruction.
“If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing”
- Barack Obama
219 Much wisdom in that, S&S. Laters though. Cooking for guests.
Btw, congrats on excellent showing in PB Poll. PBers are a very discerning bunch when casting their votes (except when voting for JackW).
Can we have a new thread. People posting nasty predjucies on both sides hardly helps matters. Its why they are chucking rockets/bombs at each other. It adds nothing to the resolution of the problem, and just highlights the prejudices.
One small point. Why Is Blair being paid millions by the Yanks to do SFA????????????
@222:
The Jacobite Party doesn’t rely on “votes”. The electorate are far too fickle to take that risk, dear boy. Goodness me, no.
Sorry if already posted but this is the best bit of political journalism I have read all year:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/28/political-predictions-2009-brown-cable
185. Honestly, Sean, if you’re going to write to that standard, I really don’t know why we’re bothering to have a poster of the year competition (with apologies to Jack and Sally). It perfectly captures the contradictions and conflicts that have made the Jewish people among the most admired people in the world as well as being among the most hated, and being simultaneously the most successful (pro rata) and most persecuted in the world. One of the best posts of the year.
185 — perhaps the biggest load of nonsense posted on here this month
221.
Well quoted, and its the truth.
I think it was Robert Fisk who argued there was an acceptable Palestinian: Israeli death proportion before anyone started attacking Israel for what it did (not literally of course).
I think this was 20:1, and we still have yet to hit that target.
185. I can understand SeanT mildly anti-smitic stance. It is ingrained in other relelgion’s especially Chritianity and Islam , that:
1 The Jews were responsible for Christ’s death. And
2. All Jews are suspect’s as outsiders.
Understant but dont condone.
220- Sean argues that the Israeli response is bad not merely because of the civilian deaths but more specifically because it is not ultimately conducive to improving Israel’s security situation, and so is counter-productive. Whether that is true or not, Israel faces the seemingly hopeless prospect of maintaining this conflict ad infinitum and always staving off defeat. As you suggest, Jewish pacifism is unlikely to secure Israel and, as Sean suggests, neither will aggression accomplish the goal. The Arabs, meanwhile, can sustain defeat after defeat after defeat, and yet keep coming back for another shot. In the end, Israel had better hope for some sort of demilitarized global police state because anything less will be inadequate to ensure their continued survival as a nation.
230 - I think you underestimate Israel’s ability to keep coming back tbh!!
222- Thanks a lot, PtP. I appreciate your support as well as that of the many other individuals who somehow saw fit to vote for me. Whoever you all are, I thank you.
Of course, no-one dares mention the proposed Zionist collaboration with the Nazis to create “a nationalist and totalitarian state…” in Palestine, and the attacks on the British during the War and after which eventually facilitated it.
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
It’s time to forget the “shroud waving” and the screeching labelling of “antisemite” [Arabs are Semites too] and look at some real history…
Re 3 Gabble “The comparison with Ireland is completely wrong-headed. The IRA did not govern Ireland - if they had, of course we would have been justified in dismantling it’s apparatus in response to their terrorist acts. As it was, we (and the Irish) targeted and attempted to disarm the terrorists on both sides. This is exactly what the Israelis are doing - they deserve our support.”
Complete tosh again, the Israeli’s did exactly the same when Hamas were organising suicide bombs and were not in government taking out Fatah, the PLO and PA’s ability to deal with Hamas in the process.
So the comparison with Ireland is apt in many ways.
See here for more:
http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2008/12/war-in-gaza.html
230. I do understand all sides of the argument. That dosn’t make Israel’s survival any easier. The fact that she has survived thus far is a sort of miracle.
It is a known fact that several states in the EU (and not only in the EU), want and pray that Israel collapses, sooner rather than later.
230. I do understand all sides of the argument. That dosn’t make Israel’s survival any easier. The fact that she has survived thus far is a sort of miracle.
It is a known fact that several states in the EU (and not only in the EU), want and pray that Israel collapses, sooner rather than later.
230 - The attack on Hamas will be tacitly supported by Jordan,Egypt and Saudi Arabia as it reduces Irans influence and hopefully clears some obstacles before the new peace process begins with the Obama administration.
Hamas has two targets.
Jews and secular Palestinians.
233. It’s a load of cobblers RodCosby.
225. Excellent!
Evening all.
Lots of good posts today, but many bad ones, perhaps best exemplified by this idiotic offering:
were there substantial groups of public opinion among the swivel-eyed reactionary plebs, or the tabloid media, or the reactionary chattering classes, who couldn’t distinguish between the IRA and the Republic of Ireland
Why is it idiotic? Because neither the IRA nor Sinn Féin was ever the government of Ireland.
see also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities
235. weathercock: It is a known fact that several states in the EU (and not only in the EU), want and pray that Israel collapses, sooner rather than later.
Of course. After all, the hallmark of the intellectual elite is that they despise three countries: Israel, the United States, and their own.
One point that hasn’t been made here wrt Israel and the ongoing problems is the nature of the country itself, what it is and what it was and is meant to be.
All countries have a self-image, a culture to cherish and protect and Israel is both no different and very different in that sense. Israel is uniquely an overtly Jewish state and so selfconsciously carries the flame of a culture that predates the state itself by many centuries. It is why compromise is so difficult: sharing land means diluting the state and Jewishness has been preserved only by maintaining seperateness apart from other races, even while living and working within host countries. Add in the persecution, pogroms and expulsions of those same centuries and the value to the Israelis of the land of Palestine is not just in its religious value as Palestine but in uniquely being Jewish-controlled. The return of refugees would completely undermine the whole point of the country and as such is a non-starter. They cannot run the risk of eventually being forced into another round of expulsions (of course, by so closely congregating there is the risk that should an antagonist acquire weapons so powerful that it could destroy Israel, they would destroy a large part of the Jewish population as well).
Still, the myth of survival through self-preservation against all odds and all threats is both wrong and dangerous - though it is only just wrong and all the more dangerous for that. It frequently leads Israeli governments to excessive actions because it does not want to have to rely on others (even though it does so while carrying out these actions). It has done so again.
241 You quote Wiki as though its true. A serious mistake.. and given your known prejudices……………….
Re 233, Rod Crosby, “Of course, no-one dares mention the proposed Zionist collaboration with the Nazis to create “a nationalist and totalitarian state…” in Palestine, and the attacks on the British during the War and after which eventually facilitated it.”
Interestingly enough the only two parties allowed in Germany after 1933 were the Nazi party and the Zionist party, and the only two flags, the Nazi one and the Zionist one. The latter looks very much like today’s flag of Israel.
That said those who wish to paint Palestinians in a bad light highlight the visits of the Mufti of Jerusalem to Germany and don’t mention Yitzak Shamir’s/ (Vice versa is also the case)
225 Thanks for pointing that out. Rawnsley’s writing has been sharper than a tack for months now.
233
I think the book Rod links too is about as realistic as all those theories about aliens building the pyramids.
196/215. Aaron agreed. Great post Philippe.
Aaron. Two apologies from me to you. Firstly, for inexplicably missing you off my list of top tipsters on this site when we all offered our nominations. Unforgiveable! Secondly, for not giving you a proper hat tip when Hoy won the SPOTY. While I was thinking through who the likely winner might be, your view that Hoy could win it helped steer me to the right conclusion.
Happy punting!
247. grow up, just because you’ve never heard of it, or never got off of your backside to look for it, it’s just as prima facie valid as any source.
The writer is a credible Jewish author…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_Brenner
245. Benidict White: Interestingly enough the only two parties allowed in Germany after 1933 were the Nazi party and the Zionist party, and the only two flags, the Nazi one and the Zionist one. The latter looks very much like today’s flag of Israel.
What a stupid and wring statement. The only Zionist flag in Nazy Germany was the Yellow Star of David forced on all Jews as a sign of approbation and seperation.
Re 244, Maggie Thatcher Fan, “241 You quote Wiki as though its true. A serious mistake.. and given your known prejudices……………….”
He could also quote a few books from my bookshelf that make similar points.
wrong not wring
Re 250, Weathercock, “What a stupid and wring statement. The only Zionist flag in Nazy Germany was the Yellow Star of David forced on all Jews as a sign of approbation and seperation.”
Er no, from 1933 to either 1935 or 38 the Zionist flag and party were allowed as the only other party or flag to the Nazi party/flag.
Fact.
End of.
250 - Yes, I was astonished to see Benedict, who usually speaks much sense, spout such nonsense. (For the record, Nazi Germany was legally declared a one party state in July 1933).
251 Yopu could have a library of books making the same point, it doesnt make it true.
Re 254, John O “250 - Yes, I was astonished to see Benedict, who usually speaks much sense, spout such nonsense. (For the record, Nazi Germany was legally declared a one party state in July 1933).”
Correct, though the Zionist party was still allowed. Obviously it did not stand in elections because there were none, nor did it deal in domestic politics because its objectives lay outside of both Germany’s and indeed Europe’s borders.
245. If they were a legal party in December 1933, they didn’t do very well in the general election then, the official results of which were:
Nazi Party: 42,988,100
Everybody else: 0
Invalid / spoilt: 3,349,363
253. Benedict White: from 1933 to either 1935 or 38 the Zionist flag and party were allowed as the only other party or flag to the Nazi party/flag.
[citation needed]
Re 255, Maggi Thatcher fan “251 Yopu could have a library of books making the same point, it doesnt make it true.”
What? That terrorist nutters like the Lehi group had dealings with the Nazi’s?
They were not exactly nice rational people!
249
I loved this last line from the official synopsis of the book on Amazon.
“The documents contained in this book were selected with due care so that a rounded picture of history emerges.”
Of course what that actually means is that the author had a pre-conceived idea of the point he wanted to try and make and so selected the documents carefully to prove that point. That is not history its propaganda.
258. http://xkcd.com/285/
234. Benedict.
Thank you for linking to this hidden gem - why the secrecy, hitherto?
My post was in response to suggestions that the current Israeli action is equivalent to Britain responding to IRA atrocities by bombing Dublin. It was/is a stupid suggestion - there is no equivalence.
My objection to the Hamas action is based on a simple and immutable belief: you do not target civilians. I would be equally condemnatory if the Israelis were targeting civilians in Gaza.
It is disappointing that when presented with a straight-forward act of terrorism, many people on this site will reach for the ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’, often citing modern and ancient history as if this were some sort of justification. There is no justification and there never will be.
216.
I love XKCD.
It’s easier to type than “please could you provide a link to prove that statement”, and clearly recognisable as such…
259
That doesn’t answer my point. A library of books making the same point does not equal truth. The one other book in the library , however small might be the truth, quoting Wiki and other sources might add weight, but it doesn’t guarantee that its right
my 263:
s/216/261, obviously.
Whilst voting I was thinking about the situation in the Holy Land; I feel so angry about what is happening there.
The 21st century David will eventually defeat his Goliath and then the Israelis [the majority of] will begin to understand that they have been supporting the wrong side for so long.
Israelis, descendants of the evil nazi holocaust, now perpertrate their own. So sad, so sad.
If there is a God and her views are represetative of the reported words of Jesus of Naareth then there are going to be lots people answering lots of difficult questions come the last judgement.
Why do men so love killing women and children? And the same applies to the terrorists in Gazza.
Malcolm
260. No. That *is* history. The facts *never* speak for themselves, they are never neutral. Every historian selects their evidence, the facts only ever speak when the historian calls upon them.
Basic History 101.
266. It must be awful for Israel though, being the only nation that could be considered ‘Civilised’ in a region known for barbarism.
262. “My objection to the Hamas action is based on a simple and immutable belief: you do not target civilians. I would be equally condemnatory if the Israelis were targeting civilians in Gaza.”
I’ll ask the same question I asked someone else last night - would the Hamas attacks suddenly be OK if they claimed they were vaguely aimed at Israeli military targets, and were as accurately targeted as technology permits?
You may not think there’s any moral equivalence between a Palestinian civilian killed by ‘accident’ and an Israeli civilian killed ‘deliberately’ (more like blind chance), but to the relatives of the dead there is an absolute equivalence. And in case you hadn’t noticed, there have been far more grieving Palestinian relatives in the last forty-eight hours than there have been grieving Israeli relatives in the last seven years.
230. S&S - the ‘Israel is only making it worse for themselves’ line we get every time this sort of thing happens is the product of intellectual laziness. The idea that Israel could somehow profit from turning the other cheek to organisations like Hamas or Hezbollah doesn’t bear much scrutiny.
Interesting piece from Anthony King in the Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/4015413/The-Tories-greatest-asset-is-that-they-are-not-in-power-right-now.html
251
Benedict I have a shelf full of books by Graham Hancock and his ilk all seeking to prove that everything we have ever been told about ancient history is garbage and that the pyramids and other ancient monuments are thousands of years older than everyone believes.
There are thousands of books about Atlantis and alien technologies all of which appear to be based upon sound documentary and archaeological evidence.
Unless of course you know anything about the subject at which point you start to see where they have misquoted, drawn false assumptions which then become ‘facts’ and very cleverly woven a narrative which, whilst superficially appearing believeable actually bears little or no relation to reality.
I would hope you don’t believe everything you read in books and certainly not everything you read on the internet.
270. Protecting the lives of innocent civilians - as Israel is required to do under international law - would hardly constitute ‘turning the other cheek’ to Hamas and Hezbollah.
267
Actually no. A historian strives to produce a balanced account based upon all the evidence available, not simply picking out the bits that suit them to match a pre conceived idea. Thats propaganda.
269. So what, if Israel had more of their people killed, evened up the ratio a bit, then it wouldn’t be so bad what they do in Gaza? I think they might prefer uninformed internet criticism to that.
And another point I keep hearing, that there is no military solution to this, is clichéd nonsense, not borne out by recent history. Israel ended Hamas suicide bombings by taking out some of its leaders until they stopped.
Re 258, LS, “253. Benedict White: from 1933 to either 1935 or 38 the Zionist flag and party were allowed as the only other party or flag to the Nazi party/flag.
[citation needed]”
fair enough, might take a while to locate the right parts of the right books.
274. They strive to, most historians accept that total balance cannot be realistically achieved.
267 is exactly right, summarises the first history lecture I got.
Re 260, Richard Tyndall “Of course what that actually means is that the author had a pre-conceived idea of the point he wanted to try and make and so selected the documents carefully to prove that point. That is not history its propaganda.”
That is frequently the way books are written, particularly history books.
275, is it the case that the much criticised security wall has also helped lower suicide bombing rates?
273. That effectively means they could never respond militarily, its the favourite tactic of terrorist groups to base themselves amongst civilians.
275. “So what, if Israel had more of their people killed, evened up the ratio a bit, then it wouldn’t be so bad what they do in Gaza?”
No, on balance I think it would be rather better if Israel simply killed fewer innocent people in Gaza. Mass slaughter is not compulsory, you know.
“I think they might prefer uninformed internet criticism to that.”
‘Uninormed criticism’ = any criticism of Israel whatsoever.
277
Of course. And that is what I said, ’strives to’. There is a big difference between that and carefully selecting 51 specific documents (and by inference ignoring all the others) which you then use to ‘prove’ a controversial theory.
Techniques worthy of our old friend David Irving there.
279. Yeah, dramatically. But mainly they stopped because they destroyed Hamas et al. ability to carry them out and started systematically knocking off their leaders.
266. I’ll try and change the suject slightly.
Malcom seems to think god is femail: “If there is a God and her views are represetative of the reported words of Jesus……”
Well, I no longer believe in a god male or femail. The more I see of the world the more I’m sure that there is no Ultimate Being.
Off course that dosn’t preclude the sprites and small gods’ that live in trees and volcanoes, etc.
Certainly, there were Jewish organisations who cut deals with the Nazis to get Jews out of Nazi-controlled Europe. But, it’s a huge leap in logic to try and argue that somehow the Nazis were working hand in glove with the Jews to create the State of Israel.
I knew a Jew whose family had escaped from Vienna in 1939. They paid German border guards a lot of money
276 - Benedict, I think you may be away for some time on that mission.
Forget it: there was no Zionist political party (and yes the Nazis did hold several Reichstag elections 1933-39, albeit with the results that David Herdson has already published) during the Hitler period.
285 (continued) …….. to get out, but one wouldn’t conclude from that that they were allies of the Nazis.
280. Regardless of the difficulties, Israel is legally required to protect the lives of innocents. There is no doubt about that at all - and equally no doubt they are failing to meet that obligation.
282. ““The documents contained in this book were selected with due care so that a rounded picture of history emerges.””
Most historians I think would think this a positive description of a work.
You can’t realistically include every source in a book, so you have to select them. Selecting them with care is better than without care, and selecting them to get a rounded picture of history is what a historian would strive for.
All beyond that is your own speculation.
274. I suspect you dont know many historians. Why would you think an historian would be in any way less biased and selective of data then say a journalist? Or a scientist working for Greenpeace or one angling for a government grant? The Historian approaches their work with all their prejudices just like everyone else.
If you dont mind me saying you do seem somewhat naive on this matter (while not on others) , they are some works i can recommend to you which might help you understand the historical process, and its folly…
Re 262 Gabble “My post was in response to suggestions that the current Israeli action is equivalent to Britain responding to IRA atrocities by bombing Dublin. It was/is a stupid suggestion - there is no equivalence.”
There certainly was when it was Hamas doing the bombing and the PA taking the damage which was my point. What was the point of wrecking Gaza’s airport all those years ago? It isn’t like Israel doesn’t have air superiority.
“My objection to the Hamas action is based on a simple and immutable belief: you do not target civilians. I would be equally condemnatory if the Israelis were targeting civilians in Gaza.”
Well,that is a toughy isn’t it. Since June/July 2007 gaza has been under a blockade which does just that for a start. Besides which there is also the question of the targets you pick to hit.
“It is disappointing that when presented with a straight-forward act of terrorism, many people on this site will reach for the ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’, often citing modern and ancient history as if this were some sort of justification. There is no justification and there never will be.”
Well, there is a whole littany of bloody terrorism on both sides. Its part of the problem. (Like the Settler movement and Hamas in fact).
270- The western media, which are overwhelmingly anti-Zionist, attempt to constrain Israel as much as possible by making the most of Israeli attacks against Arab targets while minimizing coverage of attacks against Jewish targets. Israel is left with few workable options, hence the problem in crafting any realistic plan or strategy that can result in a Palestine-based Jewish state that lives in peace.
Re 264, Maggie Thatcher Fan “That doesn’t answer my point. A library of books making the same point does not equal truth. The one other book in the library , however small might be the truth, quoting Wiki and other sources might add weight, but it doesn’t guarantee that its right”
By that logic I could not get you to believe anything you do not already believe.
Over 2/3 killed are Hamas, and to paraphrase Meatloaf, that aint bad.
Re 268, Gaz “266. It must be awful for Israel though, being the only nation that could be considered ‘Civilised’ in a region known for barbarism.”
What? You jest surely?
290
Ooo now let me see. Oh yes. I am one. At least I have written articles on military history for many years and am currently finishing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia in WW1. I also run a geological and archaeological consultancy firm.
So don’t start telling me what I do and do not know about the writing of historical works.
Re 272, Richard Tyndall, “I would hope you don’t believe everything you read in books and certainly not everything you read on the internet.”
I don’t, but I do look around for multiple sources.
275. Quite. Military solutions have generally worked very well for Israel for the last sixty years. Meanwhile the military option has worked rather badly for the Arabs. Perhaps the latter group might be the one that should consider changing tack?
290
To continue,
just as with science, there is a process to be followed which attempts to exclude overt bias from the work. In every aspect of our lives there is bias but the whole point of intellectual activity is, in part at least, to attempt to recognise and overcome those biases.
Of course if you are claiming that all works of historical study are equally valid no matter what their bias then again I must refer you to David Irving and his take on the holocaust.
296, that’s fascinating
I’d question you about your work stuff, but I have to go practice my hanky-waving. Morris dancing is a gruelling, technical exercise you know.
Re 279, Morris Dancer “275, is it the case that the much criticised security wall has also helped lower suicide bombing rates?”
Yes, but it is more criticised for where it is than its sheer existence.
300
I’m surprised at Benedicts raw ignorance re Zionism in Nazi Germany
I’m also surprised at RodCrosby peddling Lenny Brenner.
Of course some Zionist met with Nazis.
Nazis employed some Jews to police death camps.
Whats your point Rod?
299. I am only an historical relativist in the context that i not only consider what Irving wrote to be a piece of largely made up crap, but other works by other historians to be also just as bad. I work from the basis that historical narratives and writings are essentially bunkum and any useful information obtained was probably not that intended by the author.
Re 285, Sean Fear, “Certainly, there were Jewish organisations who cut deals with the Nazis to get Jews out of Nazi-controlled Europe. But, it’s a huge leap in logic to try and argue that somehow the Nazis were working hand in glove with the Jews to create the State of Israel.”
The term “with the Jews” is where the innaccuracy arrises. There were a variety of Jewish groups trying (quite rightly) to get Jews out from under Nazi Germany. There were also bits of co-operation between some extreme zionist groups and various bits of of the nazi state.
Re 286, John O. “Forget it: there was no Zionist political party (and yes the Nazis did hold several Reichstag elections 1933-39, albeit with the results that David Herdson has already published) during the Hitler period.”
Er.. coblers, there was. That said it will take sometime to dig out the citations asked for.
While we shouldn’t make this into letsanalyseseanT.com, his post on anti-semitism reminds me a bit of Jeeves’ classic description of a snob: “He is acutely aware of the existence of class distinctions.” Some people seem, when they meet anyone for the first time, *first* to assess them according to their ethnic group. That doesn’t make them racists - they might then be scrupulously neutral. But it’s seemingly very important to them.
This seems to me a pity, because it gets in the way of seeing people as individuals. I remember Sean once criticising a Question Time line-up as four of the five panelists were Jewish. I knew some of them personally, and it had never occurred to me to speculate about their religion or ethnic group. Maybe I’m a bit ethnoblind, but isn’t that the future for multilcultural countries? Except for specifically ethnic situations like the Balkans and the Middle East, worrying about ancestry is so last century. Do we know if, say, Nick Clegg is half Jewish, or a quarter Chinese, and should we care?
303
So far as I know Only in terms of internal control within the camps, not in terms of “employment” per se. There were many bad things that happened in the camps, but had you been in one, who knows what you would have done to survive ???. It becomes animal instinct in such circumstances. I dont think such citations are worth anything. It is worth mentioning that such people were the first to be in receipt of retribution when the deathcamps were overrun by the Allies in 1945.
Holocaust deniers need not respond to this post.
Re 294, Polska “Over 2/3 killed are Hamas, and to paraphrase Meatloaf, that aint bad.”
True, bit of a shame that Israel helped Hamas in the 1980’s and then by doing what they are doing now to Fatah which also helped Hamas take over. Still, as you say there is a bit of an upside.
(As well as that I hear Palestinians are not all that happy with Hamas.)
304
Ah now you see now we are starting to get somewhere.
In general I agree. My problem is that whilst there are obviously inbuilt biases in all works of historical study, there are some which are more openly biased than others. Lenni Brenner’s raison d’etre appears to have always have been to show that zionism is evil. Now whilst you and I might agree with him, his work can in no way be described as balanced. As such it is fundamentally flawed.
The Anglo Saxon chronicle is a great read but I wouldn’t for a minute trust it as a true and accurate account of the early medieval period.
307. NPMP: That doesn’t make them racists - they might then be scrupulously neutral.
Everyone’s a little bit racist
*RETAIL SLUMP SNIPPET*
It’s funny that the press chat focused on Europe’s latest mega-shopping centre, Westfield in West London being busy with “3000 people” waiting for sales to start etc.
Xmas party chat round my way says Westfield is doing very badly relative to expectations - some luxury stores are already considering closure despite attractive rent incentives whilst others (high-end brands like Louis Vuitton) which were originally sitting on their hands (LV was due to open in March) have binned the idea.
Westfield should never have been built of course given its location - they should have just built a new Chelsea/QPR stadium there instead.
re 303 Tim “I’m surprised at Benedicts raw ignorance re Zionism in Nazi Germany”
Raw ignorance? F off tw*t!
309. Benedict White: I hear Palestinians are not all that happy with Hamas.
Funny that. They’ve probably paid attention to what Hamas has done to them during the last 23 months.
The best source I can immediately find for the date of the next election suggests it will be in April. Wonder if that’ll happen!
OT. I’m appalled. Lehman lost $75 billion through bankruptcy.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5413856.ece
I don’t have a problem at all with what is supposed tyo be the cardinal sin…antisemitism….provided it does not seek to dissemble.
I have a severe,almost pathological problem with those concealing,what is to me, their naked hatred of Jews via condemnation of Israel.
Good post at 185 SeanT.
303. T.I.M.: Whats your point Rod?
That there was no Holocaust. (see PBC passim)
New thread - Is politics down to the great mortgage divide?
Re 308, Maggie Thatcher fan “Holocaust deniers need not respond to this post.”
And who are you accusing of being a Holocaust denier?
305 Doubtless there were elements that thought they could get somewhere by dealing with the Nazis.
But it’s still not the case that either group thought they were essentially on the same side, any more than Loyalists and Republicans in Northern Ireland are on the same side, even on the occasions when they collaborate with each other against the security forces.
314. Interesting - I remember there was a discussion on here at the time noting that Lehmans’ losses seemed remarkably large, but that surely the bankruptcy process couldn’t have been as badly managed as it appeared to have been. It now appears that indeed it was.
307- I would suggest that as long as individuals of whatever group constitute their own identity as a function of that group, then it is valid and perhaps even important for others to recognize that identity when sizing up such individuals in a given context. This could be gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, ideological orientation, etc., etc. If the viewpoint(s) of the Jewish individuals on the particular panel referenced in your post could reasonably be viewed as influencing their opinions on the matter that was in question, it seems a reasonable thing to comment on it.
Re 310, Richard Tyndall “The Anglo Saxon chronicle is a great read but I wouldn’t for a minute trust it as a true and accurate account of the early medieval period.”
Yes, you would want to go and read a few more sources as well, and see what corroboration was available. The further back you go in time the harder it is supposed to be.
318 I accused noone
Re 313, LS “Funny that. They’ve probably paid attention to what Hamas has done to them during the last 23 months.”
Yes quite, though they did appear less corrupt!
Will there be an election? Yes in the West Bank, possibly not in Gaza.
NickP at 307. “Maybe I’m a bit ethnoblind”
Oooh get you. “I apologise for being such a non racist”. This is why you are so often a twat. The vanity oozes as you speak, like some purulent discharge. And you don’t even realise.
You bring up my awareness of the Jewishness of a Question Time panel. First, I have already confessed to being both anti-Semitic and philo-Semitic and artistically obsessed with Jewishness, so accusing me of, er, being obsessed with Jewishness is otiose, to put it politely.
Secondly, at the time my point was very apposite. The Question Time programme was in the middle of the Iraq War, as I recall (the illegal one you supported, the one you still refuse an inquiry into), and some of the questions referred to the whole MidEast crisis.
My point at the time was that a Muslim watching this panel discuss Israeli-Arab relations would certainly feel that the panel was inherently biassed (being 4/5 Jewish), even if you, being so miraculously “ethnoblind” and therefore uniquely saintly, wouldn’t.
Now put away the mirror and stop admiring yourself, you silly man.
Re 315, URW “their naked hatred of Jews via condemnation of Israel.”
That is cobblers, as many Jews comdemn Israel’s actions.
307/321- Last sentence should have read: ‘If the ‘Jewishness’ of the Jewish individuals on the particular panel referenced in your post could reasonably be viewed as influencing their opinions on the matter that was in question, it seems a reasonable thing to comment on their ethnicity/religious affiliation.
326: “That is cobblers, as many Jews comdemn Israel’s actions.”
I love how you guys use the term “cobblers.” Here in the U.S., the term is only used in a dessert context.
re 319, Sean Fear, “But it’s still not the case that either group thought they were essentially on the same side, any more than Loyalists and Republicans in Northern Ireland are on the same side, even on the occasions when they collaborate with each other against the security forces.”
I never said they were.
re 323, Maggie Thatcher Fan “318 I accused noone”
Is this noone a new poster then
re 328, Stars and Stripes “I love how you guys use the term “cobblers.” Here in the U.S., the term is only used in a dessert context.”
Well we are just such sweet guys
Here a cobbler is also someone who mends shoes.
Stick with the comedy,Bendict.History is not your strong point.
330 LOL Benedict.. If the cap fits…, and I feel sure it doesnt fit you.
331- Oh yes, there is the shoe usage too! I’ll have to use “cobblers” in a casual conversation some time this week and see what happens…
Re 332, URW, “Stick with the comedy,Bendict.History is not your strong point.”
FOT.
Re 333, Maggie Thatcher fan, Many thanks.
Re 334, Stars and Stripes, I suspect people will sort of get it because you can tell what a word means by how its used as well.
On the “lefty anti-israel stuff is closet anti-semitism” thing.
No it isn’t:
1) Multi-cultists and cultural marxists, very often of jewish extraction, who are just being consistent in their war against nations. I hate all multi-cultists nowadays but at least this lot are consistent. When i take an occasional break from hating those people I imagine it must be quite a mental strain for them to attack israel given all the history. I (very slightly) prefer that kind of multi-cultist to the ones that are ok with blood and soil nationalism for israel but want the blood-soaked multi-cult disaster for other countries.
2) Zanus. Zanus see israelis as “whiter” than palestinians therefore Israelis are 100% to blame. Simple as that. Zanus prove how non-racist they are by becoming anti-white racists and jews are “whiter” than muslims. All Zanu morality is based on skin shade, whoever is darkest is in the right, whoever is lightest is in the wrong.
3) Muslims. Go work in a factory with a lot of muslims who are too thick to cover up what they really think.
Over time this process will turn into being specifically anti-jewish rather than just anti-zionist but it’s not the root of it. The root of it is the multi-cult.
(Obviously there’ll also be individuals who just don’t like jews who jump on the bandwagon but that’s not the root.)
My vote is for SeanT. He makes me laugh, makes me mad, sometimes can make me sad and makes me think a lot.
Never posted before but your site is a must every day for me.
339 - Welcome to posting AggieD! Make sure to email Mike with your vote. Hope to see you here in the comments again.
All the best
Morus